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paladin
09-21-2004, 03:06 AM
I received the following from another member of the International Association
of Bomb Technicians and Investigators. What happened in that school in Beslan,
Russia, needs to be understood if, God forbid, it ever happens here:
Subject: RE: Russian Hostage Situation
Not sure if you have followed the hostage incident at the school in Russia, but I've read a†lot of news on it and think it is pretty instructive for [Police Tactical] types.
Kidnappers are instructed to complete the following:

1) immediately kill all male hostages capable of resistance (The original doctrine had them selecting and killing "official" types and the armed. With so many hostages, they seem quite willing to kill men just†to make things more manageable. You can't let them consolidate. Thinking that you're gaining time by complying is an illusion.)
2) separate all hostages in groups of children, women and elderly; separate parents from children
3) immediately wire a perimeter with explosives to stop any quick acting assault team or attempted escape
4) Prohibit any stalling of negotiations by immediately killing hostages at first suspicion of stalling
5) Remain "detached" emotionally from hostages, avoid looking at females (Another report stated that some females were raped by the terrorists.)
6) Beware of food deliveries by team members; insist on a child or elderly deliverer, and have weak children or elderly taste food for safety first.
7) Beware of diversions during assault team ops; "assault teams will distract from one direction and assault from another"
8) Do not allow hostages to use† the bathroom
9) Organize their people in teams:
-1 to provide security to hostage takers/ set perimeter
-1 in charge of hostages
-1 to negotiate
10) Use only people well trained in small arms, "fighting", and explosives, and only those capable of handling high stress (Still some difficulty there--some of their members cracked and ran.)
11) Any released hostages will provide intelligence
Some Other things:
-These guys had the hostages squating with their hands on their heads for hours.
- They placed hostages in front of windows
- They ordered children to drink their own urine (Other reports said that this was the adults' idea--children were not allowed water and were cramped into the gym. To relieve heat and provide some liquid, adults urged kids to drink urine.)
- When children cried they killed an adult in front of them, then held the dead corpse in front of them while threatening to kill more (adults) if they cried out again. (Significant that the major media glossed over this. They reported only that a corpse was displayed to scare kids, not the murder for an example.)
- They planted weapons / explosives at the school beforehand by posing as construction workers (Pay attention to this! It worked for them in Russia, and we can expect similar actions in the future. Watch for the advance party. Interdicting--killing--the guys who're planting the guns may well end it before it begins.)
-they shot attempted escaping children in the back
- they used a female suicide bomber to blow up all the males in a separate area right after things kicked off (Female apparently had two switches. She was actually blown by remote, triggered by their commander. DO NOT LOLLYGAG AROUND A WIRED TERRORIST AFTER YOU SHOOT HIM. We're trying to save lives, not secure ground, so grab the innocents and move.)
- they exchanged clothes with hostages and tried to flee by mingleing with escaping hostages
- one actually posed as a wounded hostage and was taken out on a gurney by EMTs
- They killed over 300
The situation ended when the terrorists agreed to let an ambulance come in to take out the dead. When the ambulance came in many hostages tried to escape, and so did some of the disguised terrorists. Others opened fire on the escaping hostages. (Missing item here is that poorly wired booby trap blew unintentionally, and gunfire followed. OMON was forced into an immediate action, which they didn't seem to have well considered.)
There were 10 arabs identified with the rest of the Chechens. 1 article said the total was 26. (Latest count 30.)
The regular media is not covering the details of this, they are trying to portray it as an act of desperate "Chechen rebels" that are oppressed and trying to liberate their country. Putin is portrayed as a failing leader...
This was an attack on a "soft target" we hear so much about. It's right out of their training book. Pretty sick.

[ 09-21-2004, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: paladin ]

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-21-2004, 03:11 AM
Thank you for posting that. We all need to know this sort of thing. Not nice, but important to know.

paladin
09-21-2004, 03:25 AM
'Morning Andrew...I wuz gonna say "damn, you're up early"....but I guess it is well into morning where you are..

I was just trying to put some real perspective on a horrible situation. Everyone reads about an aftermath, but I feel that about 90% of the time that folks have no honest input about what is really, really happening...

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-21-2004, 03:35 AM
'Morning, Chuck. 09.15 here at the moment; I'm still not allowed to go to work so I'm looking after the 2 year old whilst his mother goes to a school assembly for the 9 year old (work would be easier..)

I think you are dead right. There is a very natural temptation for the media to go for the touchy feely stuff, interviewing survivors ("How did it feel when they shot your little brother?") and pontificating about the various shortcomings of Putin's Russia, which creates a sense of "It couldn't happen here", whilst, of course, it could and it probably will.

I would rather know more about these peoples' modus operandi - there is a one in a million chance that I will need the information, but it does not take long to read and it leaves us better prepared.

NormMessinger
09-21-2004, 08:01 AM
What did these people expect to accomplish? Could there have been a different outcome? Should there have been?

paladin
09-21-2004, 08:15 AM
The fact that most of the participants were of Arabic ethnicicity and only a minority Chechen...and the fact that the Chechens tried to cut and run would indicate that it was not an original Chechen idea and they were along for the ride...automatic weapons were for show more than use...in close quarters combat high capacity pistols are sometimes more effective and more conservitive of ammunition....AK-47's, although effective, are primarily intimidation devices...as are explosives....and also more dangerous when handled improperly......although I think the arabs intended all along to use everything at their disposal I would think also the Chechens were not as enthusiastic about dying.....

Boomkin Joe
09-21-2004, 08:22 AM
Paladin,

Some scheme seems to be emerging from that kind of conflict:

Phase 1. One big country invades a smaller country. The former's army crushes the latter's after a military confrontation on the battlefield.

Phase 2. A friendly, or puppet government is formed, that is backed by the occupying forces.

Phase 3. A nationalistic or xenophobic resistance movement appears. As they can't fight the greater power on the battlefield for lack of heavy weapons, they resort to guerilla warfare, and achieve some local successes that gathers growing popular support.

Phase 4. The occupying force and its friendly local govnt start a counterinsurgency program, that is somewhat successful thanks to superior weaponry.

Phase 5. The now veteran, early nationalist movement is crushed. Most of its members are killed, the survivors turn to a more fanatical stand, implying that any action is justified against the foreign invader.
The new members are now being recruted among a different kind of hard-liners or fanatics (Communists, Islamists) that overcome the movement and recourse to desperate, inhumane actions they believe may work when classic, loyal warfare has failed, which the hateful locals support with a vengeance.

Phase 6. Though in the meantime government forces have also turned to brutal methods and each side is at each other's throat, their leader of the invading country can point the enemy's cruel ways to his voters back home, mustering enough resent to support a longer war.

That's probably what happened in Indochina/Vietnam, Algeria, Angola, Palestine, Afhanistan, Chechnia, Irak, etc.

Scott Rosen
09-21-2004, 10:09 AM
Then again, some people just really love to hate and kill. It's not difficult to find people who will gladly inflict all manner of suffering on others, on the flimsiest justification.

Hatred, cruelty and nihilism transcend and exist independently of politics and world events. Sometimes the murderers use politics as an excuse to satisfy their bloodlust.

If you are looking for the reasons for such behavior, look no futher than your own human nature.

Scott Rosen
09-21-2004, 11:34 AM
Exhibit A:


The militant on the video called President Bush “a dog” and addressed him, saying, “Now, you have people who love death just like you love life. Killing for the sake of God is their best wish, getting to your soldiers and allies are their happiest moments, and cutting the heads of the criminal infidels is implementing the orders of our lord.”

Chris Stewart
09-21-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by paladin:
- They planted weapons / explosives at the school beforehand by posing as construction workers Virtually the same tactic was used to assassinate the Chechen president last May. Explosives were planted in the stadium where he was killed as it was being renovated in the weeks ahead of the ceremony.

Alan D. Hyde
09-21-2004, 01:37 PM
Chuck, I am reluctant to say so, but it seems likely that "we ain't seen nothin' yet."

God help us if this country ever has to deal with serious internal terrorism.

We'll all have to change gears in a big way, with no syncromesh, and with drivers who can't shift without it. They'll be a lot of gnashing of gears. And teeth...

Alan

Jim H
09-21-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by paladin:
This was an attack on a "soft target" we hear so much about. It's right out of their training book. Pretty sick.These groups run a pretty sophisticated traing operation using videos & DVDs. I found the following at Intelcenter.com (http://www.intelcenter.com/audio-video/index.html) .

http://www.intelcenter.com/sout-iraq-c-1-200.jpg

Sout al-Jihad in Iraq Videos Vol. 1
(Arabic Edition) DVD - NEW

IntelCenter has released volume 1 of the Sout al-Jihad Videos DVD series. Volume 1 contains a 37-minute video released by the First Section of Sout al-Jihad in Iraq during the first week of Aug. 2004. The video contains extensive footage of the modification of conventional munitions and the making of improvised rocket launchers. The video also contains planning and operational footage. Among the operations shown are an attack on Saddam Airport, the al-Musha Airport and other American bases.

John Bell
09-22-2004, 07:50 AM
Misunderstood freedom fighters or vermin who must be exterminated. You decide...

I know where I stand.

Thanks Chuck. It's not pretty, but if anything it strengthens my resolve.

John Bell
09-23-2004, 07:05 PM
I read the following in a novel last night, and thought it would be worth adding to what Paladin posted above.

------------>Begin excerpt
"Terrorism, the professor had lectured, "has a singular goal. What is it?"

"Killing innocent people?" a student ventured.

"Incorrect. Death is only a byproduct of terrorism."

"A show of strength?"

"No. A weaker persuasion does not exist."

"To cause terror?"

"Concisely put. Quite simply, the goal of terrorism is to create terror and fear. Fear undermines faith in the establisment. It weakens an enemy from within...causing unrest in the masses. Write this down. Terrorism is not an expression of rage. Terrorism is a political weapon. Remove a govermnment's facade of infallibility, and you remove its people's faith."

-------------->end excerpt

It's not an expression of rage. We can do what they want and let them have their way with the world, or we can resist. Based on our past history, they didn't expect us to come after them. Do we want to go back to appeasement? I think not.

NormMessinger
09-23-2004, 11:07 PM
Indeed not. Anybody that diverts from that goal is ignorant, disillusioned, ignorant, a fool or ignorant. So tell me again why we've wasted a year and more messing around in Iraq? A ploy to lure them all in to one place.

Zealots are fools and ignorant.

Kev Smyth
09-24-2004, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by NormMessinger:
...A ploy to lure them all in to one place.Not originally intended, perhaps- but potentially very effective now that it's happened. It certainly doesn't seem like a good time to change strategies in this new and bizarre conflict, whether we want to or not. :(

Resolve is one of our most effective weapons if we'll use it.

George.
09-24-2004, 03:12 AM
The mosquitoes keep coming into my home...

I know! I'll go to the swamp and stand there without a shirt on. They'll all come to one place, and then I can use a shotgun to kill them all!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-24-2004, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by NormMessinger:
What did these people expect to accomplish? Could there have been a different outcome? Should there have been?Quite. Looking at this case, and at the odd demands made by terrorist cells who take western hostages in Iraq, before they murder them, I draw the conclusion that the "demands" are not "realistic", in the sense of having a goal that could be negotiated around and eventually met.

The school murderers changed their demands more than once, and we have in Iraq at the moment demands for the French Government to change its law on what children wear to school (demands opposed by French Moslems!) and demands that the Coalition release all women prisoners in Iraq (total, two scientists associated with a biological weapons programme).

So I am inclined to think that there was no other probable outcome - a suicidal mass slaughter, to terrorise the people and weaken the Government, was all that was intended.

The psychology of this is not clear to me.

[ 09-24-2004, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

Nightmoves
09-24-2004, 04:38 AM
:rolleyes: : The psychology of this is not clear to me.

Of course it is....look at the effect on the left terrorism is causing. Read Norm's post, read about a thousand of yours. Blair and W are idiots, Conservatives in America are bloodthirsty and 4 more years of W will create how many more terrorists? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-24-2004, 08:08 AM
I'm sorry, Stan, but once again you have missed the point and got everything backwards. I meant, "the pyschology of someone who wishes, in immolating themselves, to kill many others also, is not clear to me".

For why they do it - read your own posts.

Norm and I and others of our persuasion are those with whom the terrorists have failed, because we , unlike you, have not been "terrified" into changing the way in which we think and act.

[ 09-24-2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]