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NormMessinger
04-22-2005, 10:09 AM
A neighbor stopped by the other evening to show off is new (used) Ford Ranger. He was as proud as a kid with a new bicyle. Said he just casually mentioned in his prayers the other night that he would like to have a truck. When he went to church the next time a fellow said his pickup was for saleand the price was right. He was so thankful. God is his friend.

A neice in law is coming down with a virus that has been going through the family. Her husband asked for prayers. Will God, her friend, suspend the normal rules that viruses play by, just for the asking? Doesit help if the whole family asks. The power of petitions?

What are friends for anyway but to give us stuff.

Garrett Lowell
04-22-2005, 10:11 AM
After reading your post, Norm, I feel like I'm having a weird "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy" moment.

George.
04-22-2005, 10:16 AM
Of course prayer can get you a pick-up truck. God just loves having his ego stroked, and will alter any natural law or grant any consumer good just for the pleasure of having people grovel submissively for it... :rolleyes:

LeeG
04-22-2005, 10:16 AM
Dog is my co-pilot. Concerned, calm, sometimes alert, sometimes asleep.

TomF
04-22-2005, 10:22 AM
It does sound truly weird, but I can think of a number of experiences much like Norm describes. One recently, affecting me and 2 of my kids.

Is God just a bigger Santa Claus? No. Does God answer prayer? In my experience, yes - but the answer isn't always the one you want!

t

km gresham
04-22-2005, 10:24 AM
God answers prayers. Sometimes the answer is "no". smile.gif

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-22-2005, 10:25 AM
What George said.

LeeG
04-22-2005, 10:31 AM
God listens to prayers,,,you have to listen to God. In the twisted metaphysics Jacks loves to play this is where we leave the page since the medium of language is not the medium for life/God.
Dog speaks.

Joe (SoCal)
04-22-2005, 10:47 AM
Called my dad a couple of years ago when I was in dire financial straits. I have NEVER asked my dad for a dime ever, my mom has passed away so he was my last hope family wise. He said he will pray for me. Next day I was on the phone bemoaning my troubles and telling my best friend what an ass my dad was. We have been friends for 30 years, and the closest thing I have to a brother. Out of the blue he said will $12,000 help you out ? I'm writing the check as we speak. So I guess god does answer prayers :rolleyes: Either that or I just called the wrong family member ;)

Gonzalo
04-22-2005, 10:53 AM
Lots of pickup trucks are for sale at any given time. Chances are your niece-in-law will recover from her viral infections--most people do.

Perfectly normal things that happen every day don't need divine intervention to explain. It is childish and superstitious to ascribe them to God's response to prayer. Worse, it puts you in the egotistical position of thinking that God serves you, not the other way around.

km gresham
04-22-2005, 10:54 AM
Oh, and God works in mysterious ways. smile.gif

Lurch
04-22-2005, 10:57 AM
When my favorite team wins, yes. When my favorite team loses, maybe not. Then I wonder what put him in such a snit.

Don

Steve Paskey
04-22-2005, 10:59 AM
Sing it, Janice:

"Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedez Benz.
My friends all have Porsches,
you must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime,
no help from my friends.
Oh lord, won't you buy me a Mercedez Benz."

km gresham
04-22-2005, 11:08 AM
Maybe she shoulda asked for help with the drug thing instead. Oh, and a nice voice.

[ 04-22-2005, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

JormaS
04-22-2005, 11:08 AM
Is there a particular religion one has to profess in order to receive this service? smile.gif

TimH
04-22-2005, 11:10 AM
I bought a new Ford Ranger a couple of months ago for 9k. Cant beat the price smile.gif I just wish it had a CD player...

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-22-2005, 11:12 AM
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred...let me sow love.
Where there is injury...pardon.
Where there is doubt...faith.
Where there is despair...hope.
Where there is darkness...light
Where there is sadness...joy.
Oh Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled...as to console.
To be understood...as to understand.
To be loved...as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned.
It is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Garrett Lowell
04-22-2005, 11:12 AM
"Is there a particular religion one has to profess in order to receive this service? "

No, but it manifests itself differently with different religions. Some religions require you to blow yourself and other people up to get what you want. Others require only a prayer and a visit to the church. Still others require people to "cast ballots" for you. It's all in what you believe.

[ 04-22-2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Garrett Lowell ]

Alan D. Hyde
04-22-2005, 11:22 AM
(Re: Steve's post on Janis)

I met her at Colby where she was doing a concert.

One of the guys that drove over with me from Bates spent the night with her. He must have been blind drunk. :confused:

She appeared to me (mentally, physically, spiritually) to be a filthy pig. She may have really been a deep insightful, soulful person--- an artist, underneath it all. But then I never saw her anywhere near sober, so I don't know.

Alan

[ 04-22-2005, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

Memphis Mike
04-22-2005, 11:29 AM
The mill of God grinds slow, but it grinds exceedingly small. So don't go asking for a Humvee. smile.gif

-Sue

Bob Cleek
04-22-2005, 11:33 AM
Having made the lady's acquaintance, I'd say you got it about right, Allan! LOL

George.
04-22-2005, 11:41 AM
"Is there a particular religion one has to profess in order to receive this service? "

No, but it manifests itself differently with different religions. Some religions require you to blow yourself and other people up to get what you want. Others require only a prayer and a visit to the church. Still others require people to "cast ballots" for you. And not a few assure you explicitly that your prayers will work best if you make a donation to the church...

MJC
04-22-2005, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Steve Paskey:
Sing it, Janice:

"Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedez Benz.
My friends all have Porsches,
you must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime,
no help from my friends.
Oh lord, won't you buy me a Mercedez Benz."This prayer works wonders when becalmed - especially when sung in a horribly raspy imitation of Janice...

Oh Lord, won't you send me ten knots of good air.
I'm counting on you, Lord, to help me get there.
Show that you love me and that you do care.
Oh Lord, won't you send me ten knots of good air.

huisjen
04-22-2005, 11:49 AM
She once came to my house in college, long before it was my house. Her driver for the evening was a house member so....

I met someone who was there at the time, and he says he can't confirm that she threw up in our bathroom, but he did go down to the kitchen late that night and found her involved in "One of those late-night (house) egghead conversations."

I used to own a Ranger too. Trust me. That man's god hates him.

Dan

Leon m
04-22-2005, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Memphis Mike:
The mill of God grinds slow, but it grinds exceedingly small.
-SueAh, so thats where they get the daily bread from.

Leon m
04-22-2005, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by huisjen:
I used to own a Ranger too. Trust me. That man's god hates him.

Dan:D :D :D

km gresham
04-22-2005, 11:52 AM
What was the appeal of Janice Joplin anyway? She was very difficult to listen to with that voice. Maybe all her fans were as stoned as she was. :rolleyes:

[ 04-22-2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

Leon m
04-22-2005, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by km gresham:
What was the appeal of Janice Joplin anyway? She was very difficult to listen to with that voice. Maybe all her fans were as stoned as she was. :rolleyes: Well , if you have no soul...you won't get it. ;) tongue.gif :D

km gresham
04-22-2005, 11:54 AM
Guess I have no soul, then. But I have ears and she was hard on them! tongue.gif :D

LeeG
04-22-2005, 12:36 PM
there's always blue cheese

Meerkat
04-22-2005, 12:50 PM
I'm glad I don't believe in god - who the hell would want to be associated with such low life judgemental trash as have posted on this thread! :eek:

According to your own religion, you people are going to burn!

Donn
04-22-2005, 01:36 PM
I guess I'm in the minority, because I think Joplin was one of the best singers of her day.

By the way, it's spelled Janis.

http://superstar.web2001.cz/images/janis-joplin.jpg

TomF
04-22-2005, 01:36 PM
Thanks Meer.

Hmmm ... I'm starting to feel a bit, toasty ...

:D

Alan D. Hyde
04-22-2005, 01:57 PM
Thanks on the spelling, Donn.

Tastes vary.

Reasonable people may reasonably disagree... :D

Alan

Osborne Russel
04-22-2005, 02:28 PM
CHURCHES WAGE BATTLE ACROSS LATIN AMERICA

AP April 16, 2005 RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil -- Eyes closed, hands in the air, worshippers inside the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God listen in rapture as a preacher tells them to ask for fulfillment of their innermost wishes -- a new car, a bigger house, health, a better job, the return of a departed lover.

Across the plaza, worshippers inside a Roman Catholic Church shift restlessly on their pews, some yawning, as a priest talks about resurrection . . .

TomF
04-22-2005, 02:41 PM
... which is why I have a much greater sympathy with the RCs than with a whack of Protestant denominations. My disagreements with Sam notwithstanding.

t.

ljb5
04-22-2005, 02:54 PM
I'm not a Christian, but my understanding of prayer is that you aren't supposed to ask for what you want; you're supposed to ask for what God wants

"Thy will be done", not "My will be done."

If you are fallible and He is infallible, it's a no-brainer. Bet on the sure thing.

Joe (SoCal)
04-22-2005, 03:03 PM
Janis http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif

I allways liked Janis.
Anyone see the Grammys?
The most powerful and moving performance was Melissa Etheridge's tear through Janis Joplin's Piece of My Heart. Although chemotherapy -- the singer has breast cancer -- has taken her hair, it's apparently left her lungs and throat in excellent shape. Etheridge was joined by neo-soul singer Joss Stone, a protégé of Miami singer Betty Wright...
Janis tribute was great. Melissa Ethridge coming out to sing with her bald head and Joss Stone 16 years old but what a voice that girl has.* And I love that she sings barefoot. I hope stardom doesn't change her.

[ 04-22-2005, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

John Bell
04-22-2005, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by ljb5:
I'm not a Christian, but my understanding of prayer is that you aren't supposed to ask for what you want; you're supposed to ask for what God wants

"Thy will be done", not "My will be done."

If you are fallible and He is infallible, it's a no-brainer. Bet on the sure thing.A good model for prayer is:

Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever and ever....*

Some important guy in the Christian religion suggested it to us, you might have heard of him! ;)

(* The Presbyterian Church USA version, but you get the gist...)

George.
04-22-2005, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Osborne Russel:
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil -- Eyes closed, hands in the air, worshippers inside the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God listen in rapture as a preacher tells them to ask for fulfillment of their innermost wishes -- a new car, a bigger house, health, a better job, the return of a departed lover.

The Universal Church of the Kingdom of God is one of the most self-serving and corrupt denominations I have ever come accross. They practice politics and self-enrichment, and prey on the ignorant...

Dan McCosh
04-22-2005, 03:32 PM
Janis is one of the greats. The Rose is one of the best music movies ever made.

Meerkat
04-22-2005, 03:33 PM
Gee George, there are so many christian denominations just like that! :eek:

ljb5
04-22-2005, 03:47 PM
The version I learned says "trespasses," not "debts" but I see that both versions are common.

Do people actually forgive debts, or is that just lip service?

I like how it balances asking with offering. If you ask for forgiveness, you should offer it also.

I wonder if anyone has ever prayed, "Give me a truck, as I give trucks to others"?

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-22-2005, 08:34 PM
A wise man like Norm once said....

"To pray in ‘Jesus name’ is to pray for something as it relates to His concerns, His cause, and His redemptive work as mediator in the Gap. Even your most personal concerns should be related to the full scope of God’s great plan for all nations. This may change what you ask for, why you ask for it and what kinds of answers you expect, and what you will do when the answers come."
;)

How's your neice in law?
Magicly healed I expect. :cool:

[ 04-22-2005, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Know It All ]

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-22-2005, 08:46 PM
The idea that someone would pray for a truck probably either amuses or offends God.

I know it amuses me ;)

There is something so completely western/christian to think that God will be sympathetic to your own self absorption :rolleyes:

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-22-2005, 08:58 PM
A man can do alot of good with a truck.
Dawn's brother Dave always saves our ass and shows up with his Ford Truck to haul anything we can't.
Of course Dawn gave him a kidney when he needed one. It all works out Norm. ;) :D

[ 04-22-2005, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Know It All ]

hotsuncoolwind
04-22-2005, 09:43 PM
If there is a God I suspect he is out there somewhere on an eternal broad reach with the sun shining,spray flying, chatting with a couple of bikini babes and a having a few beers. Not really interested in getting back to the office to manage a few billion "I wants" from planet earth.

NormMessinger
04-22-2005, 10:14 PM
"Of course Dawn gave him a kidney when he needed one."

She doesn't happen to have an extra lung does she? A half a lobe is better than none. tongue.gif

Wonderful thing Dawn did. She has earned hero status, for sure.

I'm not so sure about "it all works out" but so it goes, eh?

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-22-2005, 10:30 PM
It's been a year today Norm. Both are doing fine. The doctors at University Hospital deserve the credit as well as our family and friends who offered their prayers.
I'm here to tell you ,sometimes it does work out. Hang in there. smile.gif

Jack Heinlen
04-23-2005, 12:09 AM
This is an incredibly complex topic. I've come to not believe in a personal god that in any typical way takes an interest in my way, yet it's a paradox that I don't pretend to understand.

When on his deathbed, at a horribly young age in his forties, a victim of TB, Thoreau was asked how he was going to reconcile with God. Henry was a free thinker, with a reputation as more than a bit of an iconoclast. His retort has always stayed with me. "I wasn't aware God and I had quarreled." (close paraphrase). Now that's the reply of a man who went someplace I've not been yet.

It's interesting that the American trancendentalists came out of the same era as the American evangelicals and millenialists. The evangelical vision, of a personal god intimate with human history, is easier to put a simple mind around than the much more intellectual images of Emerson, Whitman, and Thoreau.

I'm quite sure there is a mystery before us that purely linear mind isn't capable of penetrating. How our prayers affect this mystery is not something I'm privy to, but they surely do. I'm not waiting on a new pickup, or a winning lottery ticket. On this, god and I still quarrel. ;)

bamamick
04-23-2005, 06:48 AM
I ask God every day for the strength to deal with what the world throws at me. So far He has delivered. Never occurred to me to ask for any material thing.

I also ask His forgiveness for any wrongs that I may have done my fellowman, or His will. I KNOW that He has delivered that by the way that I can rest each night.

God is my friend.

Osborne Russel
04-23-2005, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Jack Heinlen:
I'm quite sure there is a mystery before us that purely linear mind isn't capable of penetrating. How our prayers affect this mystery is not something I'm privy to, but they surely do.Maybe the effect is on you. Human understanding is a tiny island. What is its attitude toward the universe?

George.
04-23-2005, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Jack Heinlen:
I'm quite sure there is a mystery before us that purely linear mind isn't capable of penetrating. How our prayers affect this mystery is not something I'm privy to, but they surely do.Consider that what prayers affect is not the "mystery", but the mind itself... ;)

At the very least, prayer can calm an anxious mind by giving it the impression that it is "doing something" about whatever is making it anxious.

At best, they can heal through self-suggestion (psychosomatic illness accounts for as much as 40% of ailments), and they can relax and bring on a feeling of well-being, through meditation by repetition. Ave Maria and Allah-hu will work as well as Om mani padme hum.

LeeG
04-23-2005, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Osborne Russel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jack Heinlen:
I'm quite sure there is a mystery before us that purely linear mind isn't capable of penetrating. How our prayers affect this mystery is not something I'm privy to, but they surely do.Maybe the effect is on you. Human understanding is a tiny island. What is its attitude toward the universe?</font>[/QUOTE]I don't think the mind is purely linear. But if the mystery is within as well as without then what is "before us" is also within us. The delusion (sin?) is believing what is before you in reality is the same thing as what is "before you" as one can comprehend these ideas are before us on this screen,,then it's down the rabbit hole confusing map for terrain.
Like known unknowns if you actually succeed in penetrating some mysteries you'll probably be in the dark...that's why it's a mystery and not a certainty.
That's why it's good to agree on things.

PatCox
05-12-2005, 08:41 PM
This thread has new meaning.

Meerkat
05-12-2005, 08:51 PM
Hmmm... you do realize that Norm was a non-believer, don't you?

PatCox
05-12-2005, 09:09 PM
Yes. Just thought that perhaps the question was inspired by what he knew but we did not. I think it another example of his high character that he never let on, never threw his situation before us, didn't need sympathy, kept his illness and his situation, one which we will all face, private as he met his fate with dignity and grace.

Katherine
05-12-2005, 09:19 PM
Norm was still posting as of 11 p.m. yesterday, no sign of his impending end. :(

PatCox
05-12-2005, 09:41 PM
"A neice in law is coming down with a virus that has been going through the family. Her husband asked for prayers. Will God, her friend, suspend the normal rules that viruses play by, just for the asking? Doesit help if the whole family asks. The power of petitions?

What are friends for anyway but to give us stuff."

Katherine, this does not sound like the question of one who knows he has an illness and knows that there is no cosmic "friend" who will suspend the rules for him and make the illness go away?

Those facing their mortality confront many feelings and go through many things. I am struck that Norm went through it with such dignity, without doing an "Oprah" sharing, lets have a group hug of sympathy thing. There were the slightest of hints, thats all. To me its more testament to the dignity and humanity of the man.

BrianW
05-12-2005, 11:10 PM
Hmmm... you do realize that Norm was a non-believer, don't you?That truly makes me sad... :(

Meerkat
05-12-2005, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by BrianW:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hmmm... you do realize that Norm was a non-believer, don't you?That truly makes me sad... :( </font>[/QUOTE]Take heart in this, Brian:

Either:

* Norm was right - no harm, no foul.

* Norm was wrong - surely god would forgive such a wonderful man who did good for the planet his whole life.

---------------

I think it's a good thing that Norm was doing what he wanted to do right up until the last minute. It sounds as though he must have died peacefully in his sleep after an evening of, among other things (presumably), posting on the forum.

My heart really goes out to Phyllis, who's lost both a son and a husband in the past year. Behind every great man, there's an even greater woman.

Norm, I will miss you so much! :(

Bruce Taylor
05-13-2005, 06:49 AM
I'm not so sure about "it all works out" but so it goes, eh?So it goes. :(

Ian McColgin
05-13-2005, 07:41 AM
Reading what Norm wrote and especially after meeting him, it's clear that Norm's understanding of the universe transcended the petty issues of theism and atheism and he was, still is, at home in the to lesser souls chilly objectivity of folk like Meister Eckhart, John Muir and Rachael Carson.

[ 05-13-2005, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Ian McColgin ]