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brian.cunningham
01-22-2006, 07:56 PM
Bathroom sick was stuffed up. I tried taking the trap cleanout off, but there was only 1/16in sticky out to get a wrench on it.

So I had to undo the sink hookup and unscrew the trap from the wall. :rolleyes:

Sewers gases came into the bathroom :U

When I got it all apart, nothing was in the trap.
Looks like I need to snake the wall.

Makes me look forward to replacing both of the toilets.

Katherine
01-22-2006, 07:57 PM
What is it with plumbing problems around here lately?

Paul Denison
01-22-2006, 08:23 PM
I just did the same thing with my sink. Where did all that black goo come from? I'll try the basin wrench first, sometimes hair will hang directly from the threads under the strainer.

Oh yeah, last week it was six hours resetting the toilet. Old cast iron, busted stuff, on and on....

High C
01-22-2006, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Katherine:
What is it with plumbing problems around here lately?Man oh man, I got one today, too. I found that a tile floored shower has leaked through the tile and its concrete base and vinyl liner to rot all the way through the wooden floor. :eek: About a square foot of the floor is rotted through. Rotted wood, I know ;) , but the leaky tile floor is another matter.

I'm trying to figure out how to fix this without busting up the cement base. First I thought I might tear up the tile, epoxy in some glass cloth over the cement base, and retile.

Then a brilliant workerman friend of mine suggested an acrylic polymer coating that can be sprayed on over the existing tile to seal it. This stuff is used to refinish bathtubs, and is specifically said to work on ceramic tile.

He recommended this stuff. (http://integritycoatings.com/prodep.htm)

Any thoughts?

Katherine
01-22-2006, 10:48 PM
I take it you didn't buy the car.

High C
01-22-2006, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Katherine:
I take it you didn't buy the car.No, I figured this would cost me a bundle! :eek:

ssor
01-22-2006, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by High C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Katherine:
What is it with plumbing problems around here lately?Man oh man, I got one today, too. I found that a tile floored shower has leaked through the tile and its concrete base and vinyl liner to rot all the way through the wooden floor. :eek: About a square foot of the floor is rotted through. Rotted wood, I know ;) , but the leaky tile floor is another matter.

I'm trying to figure out how to fix this without busting up the cement base. First I thought I might tear up the tile, epoxy in some glass cloth over the cement base, and retile.

Then a brilliant workerman friend of mine suggested an acrylic polymer coating that can be sprayed on over the existing tile to seal it. This stuff is used to refinish bathtubs, and is specifically said to work on ceramic tile.

He recommended this stuff. (http://integritycoatings.com/prodep.htm)

Any thoughts?</font>[/QUOTE]That stuff ain't gonna fix the floor. How much longer do you plan to live in that place? If you make a proper repair it will last for thirty years or more. How long will the paint last?
Your call.

Paul Girouard
01-22-2006, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by High C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Katherine:
What is it with plumbing problems around here lately?Man oh man, I got one today, too. I found that a tile floored shower has leaked through the tile and its concrete base and vinyl liner to rot all the way through the wooden floor. :eek: About a square foot of the floor is rotted through. Rotted wood, I know ;) , but the leaky tile floor is another matter.

I'm trying to figure out how to fix this without busting up the cement base. First I thought I might tear up the tile, epoxy in some glass cloth over the cement base, and retile.

Then a brilliant workerman friend of mine suggested an acrylic polymer coating that can be sprayed on over the existing tile to seal it. This stuff is used to refinish bathtubs, and is specifically said to work on ceramic tile.

He recommended this stuff. (http://integritycoatings.com/prodep.htm)

Any thoughts?</font>[/QUOTE]Do it over do it right(rip it out ) , going to cost ya , you betcha .

Coatings a joke , do it sell it , move far away and don't tell your realtor about it , nor should you remember it like Hilary , "Ah, I don't remember". You'd be lieing , your call.
Sorry the truth always is harder than.. well you know , or should . Paul

High C
01-22-2006, 11:14 PM
So you guys think it's a good idea, ehh? :D

Paul Girouard
01-22-2006, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by High C:
So you guys think it's a good idea, ehh? :D Ya a DANDY One :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes: :eek: :confused: Meet's the standard smile.gif Paul

High C
01-22-2006, 11:26 PM
Paul, do you know this stuff? Would you rip out the tile and retile, or take out the whole mess, cement, vinyl liner, tile, and all?

How about my idea of removing the tile, fiberglassing over the cement base, then retiling over that?

I sure don't want to bust up the cement base. I had the walls of this shower retiled a couple years ago and don't want to damage that nice, new tile in the process.

Paul Girouard
01-22-2006, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by High C:
Paul, do you know this stuff? Would you rip out the tile and retile, or take out the whole mess, cement, vinyl liner, tile, and all?

How about my idea of removing the tile, fiberglassing over the cement base, then retiling over that?

I sure don't want to bust up the cement base. I had the walls of this shower retiled a couple years ago and don't want to damage that nice, new tile in the process.About two years ago we did a like and kind job . It all came out , there was extensive repair done from the outside of the house as moisture ants love OSB , stucco siding sloped site . But inside we ripped out the total shower area , . Our tile guy put in a new pan etc they added another shower head , but the basic deal is rip it all out , remove all rotten wood , re build do it right . Sorry , and remember it's JMHO . What do I know , if it where mine , I don't have a tile shower, never will, to many issues , I'd rip it down to parade rest and start agian .
Or sell out , lie about it . Some can do it , I can't . Paul

High C
01-22-2006, 11:41 PM
I'm inclined to do things as you say, rip it out and do it right. But part of my problem is that you can't hire anybody to do anything around here post Katrina. Every workerman in the region is balls to the wall busy for at least a year out.

So whatever I do to fix this, I have to do myself, and that cement base, and pouring and reshaping a new one, intimidates me. :eek:

I'll sleep on it a bit, maybe it'll go away. ;)

Paul Girouard
01-22-2006, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by High C:


I'll sleep on it a bit, maybe it'll go away. ;) Sleep on it , it won't go away .

BTW that same house we did the shower on has rotten exterior door jambs on the south side , sills are shot , rim joist gone . Radiant floor heat , finished rooms below . NIGHTMARE , and they want us to do the work . Almost imposiable to fix , at least as I 'm looking at it . What if the joist , TJI's < are shot under that in floor heating system :( Holy crap batman , what a mess cuss some putzt's build a bad house , no jamb sills, no flashing , etc . This is a view home , to say $$$$$$ house less then ten years old , with all these issues . Hey be happy your's are small .

BTW the end of the last repair was close to $25,000.00. Shower , tile all new , stucco repair . materials etc . Good luck , Paul

[ 01-23-2006, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Paul Girouard ]

pipefitter
01-23-2006, 01:23 AM
You can buy prepoured shower bases. Or these...
http://www.homecenter.com/product_details.asp?sid=1&itemNumber=29&propList=productID,&productID=Pearl+PS+6042+BASE+White

From plain to plain fancy and they wont leak anymore.

[ 01-23-2006, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

Paul Girouard
01-23-2006, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by pipefitter:
You can buy prepoured shower bases.So fitter you would pour this goop up to and touching the existing shower base / pan / tray and , EXPECT and water proof bond / pan ? You must be a man of faith in man made goop!

Good luck , Paul

pipefitter
01-23-2006, 01:47 AM
No,I poured a shower base with concrete.Sanded thinset is what was used to set tile on concrete or submersed areas. I did it all in one pour so that the bond was continuous.No waiting for anything to dry.I did tile for a living both residential and commercial.I did McD's and burger kings,you name it. My tile jobs dont fail beyond the life expectancy of the materials used. I use strictly wonderboard and I could set a complete shower and a tub set in a day.Sanded thinset is the real deal.Unlike all the multipurpose latex goops they use today in the home centers. If you use wonderboard and thinset your shower will never need the pan.Also if the base is poured with the proper amount of fall to the drain,water wont stand near the edges enough to leak into anything.White sanded thinset is a binder enhanced mortar.There is also grey but you dont really want to use that with light colored grouts.

None of this was learned watching a video in the big orange stores either.

[ 01-23-2006, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

Paul Girouard
01-23-2006, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by pipefitter:
No,I poured a shower base with concrete.Sanded thinset is what was used to set tile on concrete or submersed areas. I did it all in one pour so that the bond was continuous.No waiting for anything to dry.I did tile for a living both residential and commercial.I did McD's and burger kings,you name it. My tile jobs dont fail beyond the life expectancy of the materials used. I use strictly wonderboard and I could set a complete shower and a tub set in a day.Sanded thinset is the real deal.Unlike all the multipurpose latex goops they use today in the home centers. If you use wonderboard and thinset your shower will never need the pan.Also if the base is poured with the proper amount of fall to the drain,water wont stand near the edges enough to leak into anything.White sanded thinset is a binder enhanced mortar.There is also grey but you dont really want to use that with light colored grouts.So you'd rip out the old and redo smile.gif Some of this internet stuff we think we say but if you just read what is written ya get a differerent twist. Sorry if I missed your point , Paul

pipefitter
01-23-2006, 02:00 AM
Is ok....also sorry about the minor flare up.I personally think his shower could be repaired just by redoing the walls.Wonderboard set in a bed of thinset at the edge of the pan.A scratch coat of thinset starting from the floor up.If the shower base is leaking there would be visible signs of cracked grout etc.As long as water doesn't stand in it and it isn't leaking around the drain. I fixed one in this way and it is still going strong. Sometimes people will suspect a pan and it's not the real leak. I fixed one that was because of the window in the shower.It had a tile sill.I redid the window wall,replaced the tile with a marble sill set before the tile so the watersheds are in all the right order.It hasn't leaked in over 15 yrs since the repair.Cost the homeowner 400.00 instead of 1500.

I would check for caulking missing in the corners and stuff before I condemed the pan.The pan is only to buy a little time.

[ 01-23-2006, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

Paul Girouard
01-23-2006, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by pipefitter:
Is ok....also sorry about the minor flare up.Hey none taken all for clarity , so the org poster gets the right info . I'm all about that.
Have a great day, did you know the Seahawks are going to the Super bowl ? I'm smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif One short of the limit. smile.gif Well was:))Paul

pipefitter
01-23-2006, 02:21 AM
Hell...I haven't even paid any attention to my own team since y'all got me hooked into building a wood boat. Well...good luck with the superbowl then.
Ofcourse if the floor is rotten the shower needs to come out but if you are unsure of being able to do it yourself it might be possible to buy some time until there is less demands on the trades there.You didnt say where the floor was rotten.In the middle by the drain or by the end wall where the fixtures are.

[ 01-23-2006, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

High C
01-23-2006, 10:03 AM
Hey fitter, thanks for that good advice. I hadn't even considered that the leak could be coming from a wall, mainly because two years ago I had the walls, but not the floor, retiled.

I'll have a good look at the wall and see if there's any visible problem.

Thanks,
JT smile.gif

Alan D. Hyde
01-23-2006, 10:59 AM
Buy and use a couple of DRAIN KINGS--- a regular size for sinks, and a bigger size for bathtubs.

They work exceedingly well--- and I've used them in OLD* houses.

Here's what Aubuchon Hardware says about them---

Connects to garden hose to unclog kitchen sinks, bathtubs, and showers. Expands and locks itself in pipe when water is turned on. Pressure forces strong jets of water through surge valve to discharge blockage, even if its 1000' down the line. Can also beused for clearing heating and A/C drainage pipes, bath sinks and swimming pool lines. No chemicals, will not harm pipes. This Drain King is one of many top quality items in our Drain Augers department.

http://images.orgill.com/200x200/3935996.JPG

http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/51-2 85-drain-augers/drain-king-631667.aspx (http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/51-285-drain-augers/drain-king-631667.aspx)

***

Alan

* Old by U.S. standards, that is--- only back to 1800. Young by U.K. or European measures... :D

[ 01-23-2006, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

Alan D. Hyde
01-23-2006, 01:24 PM
A "drain king," known generically as "a plumber's blow-bag," really is useful, and will solve most drain problems more swiftly, easily, and safely than the alternatives...

Alan

Paul Pless
01-23-2006, 01:29 PM
You guys should see what those drainkings are capable of when you connect them to the 100 psi and up water pressure at my kennel. :D

brian.cunningham
01-23-2006, 02:58 PM
I won't use drain cleaner on old pipes, let alone something pressurized.

I've already had to replace a section going to the kitchen sink.

ssor
01-23-2006, 05:17 PM
I was gonna jump in here but Pipefitter prettywell covered the details. One of the causes for failure that I often see happens when the tile setter used Moisture resistant sheetrock instead of wonderboard. The sheetrock extends past the base tile, rots, lets go of the tile and leaves you with a mess. The only sure cure is to start taking it apart until you get to undamaged material and then straighten the edges and put it back together. Just don't take any short cuts and work by the book.

pipefitter
01-23-2006, 06:22 PM
I will also vouch for the drain king. it will clean out a new clog in a hurry.The only thing it wont do is relieve the buildup in cast iron pipes,that takes rotor rooter. If you do ever need to replace the pan,I do like the prefab's better.They are stylish as well.Whether in a tub area or shower,the wallboard should never touch a horzontal surface.If you look in your bathrooms and the tile is flared in at the last course of tile at the tub,it means the drywaller hung the sheetrock down over the flange of the tub causing it to splay inwards. The wallboard is supposed to stop above the flange.If not,as soon as the tub settles or flexes and the grout or caulking joint cracks,the drywall will start wicking up the water and ruin the job.I use wonderboard/durarock on showers,first sheet from the tub up in a tub area,counter tops,kitchen floor underlayment for tile over wood,jacuzzi/spa decks and anywhere else water may intrude.You can use some sheetrock in a shower higher up but never around the window wall unless it is almost to the top...you can observe the splash zone when you take your shower.Sheetrock should be butted to the wonderboard just beyond the first few courses of tile to hide the joint.Nothing above say shoulder height is really going to cause any problems,especially if the caulking is kept in check.Tile window sills in a shower are pretty much bad design unless it is on wonderboard and even still it can get beyond that and damage wood.Marble and even Corian® makes a much nicer, sensible sill. Has anyone ever considered Corian® for window sills in a house? With all it's granite/stone looks and it's machinability it is sure a nice touch. I suggested it to a homeowner and have not seen another house with them in it.

I am soon to remodel this place and get rid of all the grey/white marble sills and will use the Corian® like the countertops.

[ 01-23-2006, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

High C
01-23-2006, 06:46 PM
The tile job done on the walls two years ago was done with wonderboard, no sheetrock in there at all.

Tomorrow I'll taks a chisel to the wood on the underside and see what that reveals.
Thanks!

bukuboy
01-23-2006, 07:47 PM
High C: I hope you saved some wall tile from 2 years ago. The heretic's guide to the 100 year shower floor is this: Tear out your shower floor completely and 12 inches up the wall to the studs. Install 2 by 12 blocking between wall studs. I assume you're on a crawl space with wooden joists. Lay 30 lbs. roofing felt on your subfloor and nail metal lath on the felt. You need to install a 3 piece clamping shower drain ---preferably cast iron. The top of the bottom flange of the shower drain needs to be 1/2 inch above the subfloor.Float a preslope(pitch of 1/4 inch/foot) with deck mud made from 1 part portland cement and 4 parts sharp mason's sand. Let dry 3 days. Now the shower pan comes and is made from 2 layers biaxial fiberglass cloth and epoxy and goes over the curb and 12 inches up the shower walls. More deck mud is used and is sloped also as a substrate to lay the shower tiles on. Lay the shower floor tiles with Home Depot's Flexbond sanded thinset made by Custom.The 12 inches of shower walls without the wonderboard will need metal lath epoxied to the shower pan and then floated even with the rest of the wonderboard with wall mud made with 1 part portland cement, 1 part lime and 4 parts sharp mason's sand. Again, use the Flexbond to adhere the tiles to the wall. Grout and enjoy after sealing with 15 year Aqua Mix sealer. The only REAL way to tile showers and baths is via lath and mud period. ---Bukuboy

pipefitter
01-23-2006, 08:49 PM
Thats a kind of good way to do it but when you get a leak and the lath rusting starts bleeding through your grout joints.And it takes a good plaster man to get all of that adaptation flush...plus all the epoxy and the mess.He would be much better off buying a prefabbed shower base like those made from Kohler etc.A prefabbed base has no joints other than where the tile meets it well above waterline and nowadays they are downright stylish and functional.Best thing they ever did to a shower stall.I know from experience working with lath over conventional neoprene shower pans that it isn't near as easy as you are making it sound.If the tile is installed properly and in the right order It would never leak from any fault of the tile.The 2x2 reinforcement is a good idea though to keep walls from flexing when leaned against etc. Also,I have repaired as many mud jobs as anything else and they are a bitch to repair.

Also,that mud/ wonderboard joint has to be mesh taped as does anyother joints unless you know for sure they are going to fall in the middle of a course of tile and even then,all corners and joints should be taped and filled.

[ 01-23-2006, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

pipefitter
01-23-2006, 09:09 PM
HiC,after only 2 years I would suspect a plumbing leak if the tile is sound. Is there an access to the shower diverter at a wall behind the shower...maybe an adjoining closet? Are the escutcheons around the handles of your fixtures tight and sealed to the walls? If the shower backs up to a closet wall or behind a refrigerator or something,I would make an access panel that exposes that plumbing for periodic inspection.

bukuboy
01-23-2006, 09:18 PM
Oh, so ya don't want to make your own shower floor like I told ya. Go to www.florestone.com (http://www.florestone.com) and look at the Terrazzo model shower receptors. Check out the weight of that shower receptor--- the Real Mccoy. Most people don't know what real true craftsmanship is nowadays. Mud and lath as a tile substrate is the real Mccoy-- all other tile substrates are gimmicks in comparison. Kerdi, Ditra, greenboard and wonderboard--- micky mouse. ---Bukuboy

High C
01-23-2006, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by pipefitter:
HiC,after only 2 years I would suspect a plumbing leak if the tile is sound....That's a good thought. The floor damage, though, is at the other end of the shower. This shower is about 2 1/2 by 5 1/2 feet. The floor damage is 3 feet from the drain, well away from the usual culprits (drain and plumbing), and uphill to boot.

I realize that the water could travel along the vinyl liner, and rot the wood wherever it might leak. Tomorrow, I'll tear into that wood from below and see what's what. Fortunately, this is a raised house, and the damage is comfortably accessible from my shop, under the house.

Bukuboy, yours sounds like the proper way to go, for sure, but I should live so long! :D My tiling and masonry skills are limited to nonexistant, and you can't hire anything done here in Katrina World for months on end, so I have to find a reasonable fix that suits my modest boat building skills. No ferro cement boats for me, yet. ;)

Meerkat
01-23-2006, 09:36 PM
Be afraid! Be very afraid! It's the gator trying to burrow through! ;) :D

High C
01-23-2006, 10:11 PM
:D

bukuboy
01-23-2006, 10:12 PM
You have to understand, my theory on remodeling and house construction in general is to do it once in a lifetime. On another post I had given ya the heretic's guide to the 100 year roof. ---Bukuboy

High C
01-23-2006, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by bukuboy:
...On another post I had given ya the heretic's guide to the 100 year roof. ---BukuboyI already have that, heavy metal, folded standing seam, well 50 years, anyway. ;)

pipefitter
01-23-2006, 10:56 PM
HiC,did the installer/company offer a warranty with their work? I warranted mine for 5 years.And alot of them might fix it for free.

Kim Whitmyre
01-23-2006, 11:05 PM
A latecomer, but I'll share this. . .5 or 6 years back, I discovered that the source of the water leaking into my shop was the shower above. The floor framing was soaked. I tried everything I could think of to stop the leak. New valves, caulking any apparent tile fissures, etc. I chopped through the stucco wall to the synthetic pan and discovered it was full of water: whenever the shower was used, the pan would overflow, thus leaking water all over the framing. Long story short, what I did was take a wax ring I had and press it into the shower drain, to the seam of the drain halves. No leak since!

Funny thing is, a friend told me the other day that he had used this same solution twice since I told him about it, with the same results. smile.gif

[ 01-24-2006, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Kim Whitmyre ]

High C
01-23-2006, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by pipefitter:
HiC,did the installer/company offer a warranty with their work? I warranted mine for 5 years.And alot of them might fix it for free.Yes, but they didn't do the floor, just the walls. The floor is 20 plus years old. I'm sure if I can isolate the leak to their work that they'd fix it. I just havta find it first. The old floor seems more likely.

High C
01-23-2006, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Kim Whitmyre:
...I did was take a wax ring I had and press it into the shower drain, to the seam of the drain halves. No leak since!A wax ring like for a terlit? The drain is high on my list of likely culprits.

[ 01-23-2006, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: High C ]

Kim Whitmyre
01-24-2006, 11:24 AM
Yep, a wax ring for a toilet. At first I was a little worried that the nice hot water in my shower would cause the wax to slump, but that has not been a problem at all.

Bob Adams
01-24-2006, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Katherine:
What is it with plumbing problems around here lately?Too much crap flowing :rolleyes:

Ken Hutchins
01-24-2006, 12:30 PM
The all time best was a guy that I used to work with, one day he was greeted at home by a plugged system, backed up to the toilet overflowing. So he tried a few things and decided the problem was down in the pipes, not good. So he in his ultimate wisdom went into the basement and decided he could fix the problem where the pipe made to turn out to the tank, :rolleyes: nice handy plug in the end of the tee. Well ya gotta understand he always had a desire for a few martinis each day so this day was no different, of course the martinis sorta affected his brain power. tongue.gif So he gets a wrench and proceeds to remove the plug, hmmm a plug about face high pointing right at ya. :rolleyes: Wouldn't ya think even under the influence he would have thought better of what he was about to do? :confused: :eek: Well his second mistake was telling us at work about it the next day. :D