More Wishful Thinking

[Meerkat]

LSD consumes 47 times it's weight in excess reality: the Shrub must have some good stuff - maybe he's buying from Rush!?! :D

Idealism in the Face Of a Troubled Reality (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/washpost/a10064_2003nov6&e=4)

In a speech that redefined the U.S. agenda in the Middle East, President Bush waxed eloquent yesterday about his dream of democracy coexisting with Islam and transforming an important geostrategic region that has defiantly held out against the global tide of political change.

But Bush failed to acknowledge the tough realities that are likely to limit significant political progress in the near future: the United States' all-consuming commitment to fighting a global war on terrorism and confronting Islamic militancy. Washington still relies heavily on alliances with autocratic governments to achieve these top priorities.
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"By and large, administration after administration ultimately chooses national security priorities over democracy and discovers more often than not that it's not a trade-off," said Shibley Telhami, a Brookings Institution fellow who also holds the Anwar Sadat chair in peace and development at the University of Maryland.

In a broad assessment of the region, the president inflated the progress toward democracy made by allies such as Saudi Arabia that are harshly criticized for their abuses in the annual U.S. human rights report, while he criticized countries such as Iran that have made some inroads but do not have good relations with Washington.
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[Nicholas Carey]

Ya gotta work on that cut-n-paste there Meer...that's not nearly long enough...and is that an ellipsis I see there? Tsk..tsk..tsk...


In a speech that redefined the U.S. agenda in the Middle East, President Bush waxed eloquent yesterday about his dream of democracy coexisting with Islam and transforming an important geostrategic region that has defiantly held out against the global tide of political change.

But Bush failed to acknowledge the tough realities that are likely to limit significant political progress in the near futureNot to mention acknowledging any awareness of the anthropological, sociological and geo-political reality on the ground: there isn't a single democracy in that neck of the woods save Egypt (in name only). Israel (the sole non-Islamic state) is a democracy in name...but, IMHO. is rapidly sliding towards fascism[1] The become what they despise.

Democracy only works if the society in question already believes in it (and fundamentally believes in the primacy of the individual over the group). It's not something that can be installed (for long) at the point of a gun.

[1] Case in point...I just stumbled across two interesting quotes, especially in juxtaposition: one, an IDF staff officer allowing as how they needed to start studying the strategyies and tactics used by the Wehrmacht in dealing with the Warsaw Ghetto in order to better deal with the Occupied Territories. The other was, I believe, from Ariel Sharon, intimating that sometime in the near future, they'd have to seriously consider "reducing the population in the occupied territories." 'nuff said.

[Meerkat]

Well, I could try to do better... but, unlike our Texass friend, I do believe in copyright law (most of the time) and the doctrine of fair use.

Aside from the point about Israel sliding towards facism, the other points you make are in the whole article: it's worth reading.

I've long noted and commented on the parallels between what the Germans did to the jews and what the Israelis are doing to the Palastinians. Ugh. Personally, I've been of the opinion that the Israelis are looking to make the Palastinians slaves, but whatever floats their menorah...

Maybe Haliburton will get a private contract for the Zyklon-B.

[ 11-08-2003, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Eric Sea Frog]

Give us back your territory.

[High C]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
I've long noted and commented on the parallels between what the Germans did to the jews and what the Israelis are doing to the Palastinians.I don't recall that the Jews of the 30s and 40s were trying to drive Germans out of their nation and into nonexistence. Please remind us of the Jewish terrorism and suicide bombings that took place against innocent Germans in restaurants, and buses, please? History seems to have overlooked the atrocoties you've long noted.

Israel is defending herself against Arabs all around her who have sworn to destroy her and her Jewish citizens. Germany was not defending herself against anything at all.

There are no parallels here.

[John Bell]

Yeah, the Israelis are rounding up all the Palestinians and sending them into a highly efficient human-slaughtering machine. Gimme a break Meer! What a steaming load of PNW hyperbole!

It's the Palestinian leadership that would like to exterminate Jews, and not Jews who wish to implement a "Final Solution" on Palestinians.

[Meerkat]

Well HiC, I guess the Palastinians have more spine than the German jews did, eh?

You demonstrate a remarkable lack of knowledge about the history of Palastine and the rise of the Israeli state in the 20th century. Of course, since John seems to share it, you're not alone.

[ 11-08-2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[On Vacation]

Here is another one for the head in the sand crowd, This is not from Fox news either. And just think we went to Bosnia for a year, yea right, for a mear few thousand in a few months of a killing spree.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=3&u=/nm/20031108/ts_nm/iraq_graves_dc

Top Stories - Reuters

Investigators Say Iraqi Mass Graves Hold 300,000
1 hour, 2 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Andrew Hammond

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraqi and U.S. rights investigators said on Saturday they suspected Iraq (news - web sites) had up to 260 mass graves containing the bodies of at least 300,000 people murdered by the former regime of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).


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Special Coverage





They told a conference that the task of identifying bodies and preparing evidence for tribunals could take years and millions of dollars, but the long process would be worth it to heal the wounds of three decades of brutal Baath Party rule.

"We have reports of 260 mass graves and we have confirmed approximately 40 of them," said Sandra Hodgkinson, director of the Coalition Provisional Authority's (CPA) mass grave action plan'.

"We believe, based on what Iraqis have reported to us, that there are 300,000 dead and that's the lower end of the estimates.

"In Bosnia it's now eight or nine years since similar atrocities and only 8,000 bodies out of 30,000 have been uncovered. Here in Iraq it's 300,000," said Hodgkinson, a human rights lawyer brought in by the CPA after U.S.-led forces toppled Saddam in April. More sites could still be found.

The three-day conference aims to prepare Iraqi rights workers and officials of the Iraqi human rights ministry for the process of disinterring graves and convincing families that they should wait rather than rush to dig up bodies themselves.

Hodgkinson said only 11 of the 260 sites had been disturbed since the graves were first discovered in May, when distraught families frantically dug around for the remains of loved ones.

Iraqi officials, who will gradually take over control of the investigations, also called for patience.

"Iraq doesn't have the capability at present to do the work of investigation. The main task for the moment is how to protect the sites which have been opened," Human Rights Minister Abdel-Basset Turki told the meeting.

KURDS VICTIMISED

The U.S. military has footed the bill for satellite imaging to identify sites, but Turki said more money would be needed.

Iraq's Governing Council asked an international donor conference in Madrid last month for $100 million to be spent on equipment and manpower over the next five years, but Turki said little has been forthcoming yet.

A team of forensic experts will arrive in Iraq in January to begin work on up to 20 sites around the country where evidence will be collected for future trials of regime figures. Work to identify bodies has begun at the other 200-odd sites.

Investigators have identified six major crime periods: 1983 attacks on Kurds, a 1988 campaign against Kurds, chemical weapons attacks on Kurds 1986-88, the 1991 crushing of a southern Shi'ite revolt, 1991 crushing of Kurdish insurrection, and crimes against all sectors of the population during the entire period of Baath rule.

Rafid al-Husseiny, a doctor who has led disinterring work at the Mahaweel site near Hilla south of Baghdad, is leading efforts to train Iraqis in the gravedigging process.

"Since May we have investigated a mass grave there of 3,115 people. We identified 2,115 bodies, which were reburied by their families," he said, stressing reconciliation among Iraqis.

"Iraqi citizens must look with both eyes, one looking to the future and one looking toward the past."

[Meerkat]

The topic of this thread is Shrubbie's pipe dream about establishing democracy in the Middle East in the face of millenia of counterveiling culture, not to mention 50+ years of US anti-islam policy. Backing Israel only adds to the problem.

[On Vacation]

Killing 300,000 people, and thats just one place, ain't true democracy. Car bombs killing children, children that have done nothing for or against the enemy, ain't democracy. Fighting back creates Democracy, if you fight for complete victory.

[ 11-08-2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[Meerkat]

U.S. Insists It Has Upper Hand in Iraq (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20031108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq)


BAGHDAD, Iraq - A senior U.S. official insisted on Saturday that the U.S. military has the upper hand in the escalating war in Iraq (news - web sites), on a day when two paratroopers died in a roadside ambush and the international Red Cross said it was closing two main offices due to deteriorating security.

Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage described Iraq as a "war zone," but noted that "we have the momentum in this process."
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Meanwhile, two soldiers of the 82nd Airborne Division died when a homemade bomb exploded beside their vehicle about in Fallujah, a center of Sunni Muslim resistance 40 miles west of Baghdad, the military said.

Their deaths brought to 34 the number of American soldiers who have died in Iraq this month.

In Geneva, the international Red Cross said Saturday it was temporarily closing its offices in Baghdad and Basra because of the security situation. The Red Cross had planned to cut back on foreign staff of 30 people after the Oct. 27 truck-bombing at its Baghdad office but wanted to keep the offices open with reduced staff.

"We decided that in view of an extremely dangerous and volatile situation that we would have to temporarily close our offices in Baghdad and Basra," said Florian Westphal, spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross.
It's getting to be that every time an administration flack opens his/her mouth they leave little doubt that said administration doesn't have the first clue or any sort of plan beyond their wishful thinking. The rate of attacks upon and deaths of, US military are increasing, not decreasing, and more and more international aid organizations are pulling out.

But hey, if the shrubbery says it has things well in hand, we ought to have democracy in Iraq soon! Say, by the end of the 21st century or so! :D

[ 11-08-2003, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[On Vacation]

"But hey, if the shrubbery says it has things well in hand, we ought to have democracy in Iraq soon! Say, by the end of the 21st century or so!"

Think we all can live long enough or live at all, to see Democracy continue, anywhere, if Islamic murders have their say with the free world? Whats your choice?

Still waiting for any ideas of dealing with the mentality of Bin Laden, and Hamas extremists. Still waiting for any ideas of dealing with dicatators of any land, that kill for fun of it, to silence the opponents.

Well I gotta for now. Had my fill of politics for the week.

Please feel free to run for office and change the forum members minds and the world membership of the oppressed. Later.

Oh, have you sent in your 49 dollars to Howard Dean yet? I just logged on his web site. He needs all the money he can get, now. Gotta big year ahead of him. Needs a lot of extra help, on his get out to vote from the website, I see. Got any volunteers here, in thier spare time? Been another nice and entertaining day. Later

[John Bell]

Meer, if (insert your choice of leader here) came out in favor of Middle Eastern Democracy, would you support it?

Or do you believe that democracy "just isn't for some folks".

I think that's what bothers you about Bush. He's for a positive future, which you don't think is possible. To you, anyone who sees an optimistic future is impossibly misguided at best, and delusional at worst.

Do meerkats throw themselves over cliffs into the sea like lemmings do? Although I've never read that, I'm beginning to think it may just be so...