Whats Going on ?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (July 16) -- A U.S. soldier, an 8-year-old Iraqi child, and a pro-American mayor and his son were killed Wednesday as pro-Saddam Hussein insurgents unleashed a string of violent attacks on the eve of a recently banned Baath Party holiday.

The soldier was killed in a rocket-propelled grenade attack on a supply convoy west of Baghdad near the Abu Ghraib prison, a U.S. military spokesman said.

The grenade blasted into the soldier's truck, hurling him out, as the 20-vehicle convoy passed along a main highway Wednesday morning. Soldiers at first believed a bomb was remotely detonated as the convoy passed.

CNN showed footage of Iraqis cheering at the attack scene.

Sgt. Diego Baez, who escaped without injury from the truck, wept over his comrade's death.

''We slept next to each other just last night. He was my best friend,'' Baez said.

Meanwhile, the pro-American mayor of Hadithah in western Iraq was shot and killed Wednesday along with one of his nine sons, the U.S. military reported.

The military spokesman said he could offer no other details, but the Arab satellite network Al-Jazeera said Mohammed Nayil al-Jurayfi's car was shot up by unidentified attackers as he drove through the city of about 150,000 about 150 miles northwest of Baghdad.

U.S. soldiers have come under increasingly ferocious attacks by suspected Saddam loyalists in recent weeks - reaching an average of 12 attacks a day. A total 33 U.S. soldiers have been killed in hostile action since President Bush declared an end to major hostilities on May 1.

The attacks Wednesday came a day before a holiday marking the 1968 coming to power of Saddam's now-dissolved Baath Party. U.S. officials have warned of possible stepped up attacks to mark the anniversary, and the new Iraq Governing Council canceled the holiday, along with others from Saddam's regime.

A half hour after the blast, the truck was still burning on the road near Abu Ghraib, just west of Baghdad, site of Saddam's most notorious prison. The convoy, made up of reservists from a supply unit based in Puerto Rico, had been heading to a U.S. base near the Jordanian border.

''We need more protection. We've seen enough. We've stayed in Iraq long enough,'' said Spc. Carlos McKenzie, a member of the convoy.

After the attack, troops began house-to-house searches in nearby villages. One resident, Mohammed al-Qazi, said the bombing was the work of men from the tense cities of Fallujah and Ramadi, farther down the road. ''It was not people from Abu Ghraib,'' he said.

Those cities are part of the so-called ''Sunni Triangle,'' an area west and north of Baghdad where pro-Saddam insurgents have been carrying out attacks against the American occupation force at a rate of 12 each day.

In the attack that killed the Iraqi child, an assailant threw a grenade into a U.S. military vehicle guarding a bank in the upscale al-Mansour neighborhood in west Baghdad. The soldier was injured and taken to a military hospital along with four adult Iraqi bystanders who were also injured, said Maj. Kevin West of the 4th Battalion, 1st Field Artillery.

''They're killing more Iraqis than they are Americans,'' West said, shaking his head.

In the extreme south of Baghdad, an explosion badly damaged a U.S. Humvee and three U.S. casualties were seen taken away by an Iraqi witness. The coalition had no information on that incident.

''We were home when we heard a strong explosion and we came out and we saw a U.S. vehicle on fire,'' said Ameer Jabar, a 22-year-old student.

Also Wednesday, a U.S. Marine died in the southern city of Hilla when he fell from the roof of a building he was guarding, the military said. The soldier was taken to a hospital but died of his injuries.

The deaths highlighted the long and painful road left for coalition forces as they try to stabilize Iraq.

On Tuesday, the American administrator of Iraq linked the length of the U.S. occupation to Iraq's political process, saying that American forces would remain in the country until Iraqis agree on a new constitution and set up a democratic government.

''We have no desire to stay a day longer than necessary,'' L. Paul Bremer said. ''The timing of how long the coalition stays here is now in the hands of the Iraqi people.''

The new Governing Council - Iraq's first postwar national body - was meeting again Wednesday to discuss security and education matters, said Nouri al-Badran, spokesman for the Iraqi National Accord, which holds several seats on the council. On Tuesday, it decided to set up special courts to try former members of Saddam Hussein's regime who are accused of involvement in mass executions, torture and other human rights violations.

U.N. officials said a council delegation will visit the U.N. Security Council on July 22, when the world body is to discuss its role in postwar Iraq.

The Governing Council, whose members were selected rather than elected, is meant to be the forerunner to a 200-250 member constitutional assembly that would start drafting a constitution in September. That is expected to take nine months to a year and free elections to pick a government are expected to follow.

But even talk of removing coalition soldiers from Iraq seemed premature while guerrilla-style attacks against U.S. forces are increasing and many major countries are balking at the idea of sending peacekeepers to replace exhausted American troops.

Many American soldiers thought they'd be home this summer, but their hopes were dashed in a U.S. Army e-mail to spouses Sunday.

''I'm tired of going to bed wondering if I'm going to wake up in the morning,'' said Spc. David Myers Jr. of the 3rd Infantry Division's 3rd Battalion, 7th Infantry Regiment in Habaniyah, west of Baghdad.

Late Tuesday, the U.S. Central Command said in a news release that it still intended to remove 3rd Infantry soldiers ''by September, pending international or U.S. replacement units. As always, the security situation could affect deployments and redeployments.''

The increasing frequency and sophistication of the attacks - and growing doubts about the basis for the war - have contributed to the decision by some countries not to contribute troops.

On Tuesday, France ruled out sending troops, following India and Germany.

The Bush administration has scored some success in recruiting other countries to help patrol Iraq. Poland will contribute 2,300 soldiers to a brigade that will also include units from Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Lithuania.

A second brigade will have 1,640 Ukrainians and the third 1,100 Spanish troops as well as units from Honduras, the Dominican Republic and El Salvador and Nicaragua.

AP-NY-07-16-03 1023EDT

[Scott Rosen]

What's going on is that Americans are dying and our government isn't telling us bupkess. How are we supposed to form an opinion on whether we should still be in Iraq when we don't even know what the status of the political situation is?

[Wayne Jeffers]

Scott,

You're not supposed to form an opinion. If the government wanted you to have an opinion, they would issue you one. ;)

You're just supposed to salute smartly and trust in your leaders.

And wave the flag.

Wayne

BTW, Am I the only one whose first thought on seeing the thread title was the old Marvin Gaye song?

"War is not the answer. . ."

[ 07-16-2003, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Jeffers ]

[jack grebe]

Americans get killed(many violently) everyday in a lot of different countries around the world, why should Iraq be any different?
cause one side can use it to sway public opinion,thats why.
no different than gun control folks using a story about a 5yr old shooting his friend...to enact gun control laws
it's an IN YOUR FACE kind of approuch to stuff someone elses thinking into your brain

[Donn]

"Leo Rosten wrote in The Joys of Yinglish (1989):

bupkes / bobkes / bubkes / bopkes

From the Russian for "beans" and the Yiddish for "goat turd." Pronounced BUP-kes or BAWB-kes.

Yinglish expletive used in show business circles to dismiss or register outrage over:

1. An offer or percentage that is so small, or so "insulting," that it should be dismissed out of hand.

2. An outrageously inadequate price or proposal.

3. Insignificant quantity, bordering on nothing.

4. A heated demarche, equivalent to "Nuts!" "Forget it!" or "Drop dead!""

= = = = =

"From The Randomhouse Historical Dictionary of American Slang

BUPKIS n. [Yiddish, 'beans'] Origin. Jewish American, absolutely nothing; (in negative contra.)anything at all. Occasionalloy as adj.

1942 Leibling 'Telephone' 60: The best you can get there...is a chance to work Saturday night at a ruptured saloon for 'bupkis'. 'Bupkis' is a Yiddish word that means "large beans"."

More at WordWizard (http://www.wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss.asp?Num=738)

[Dutch Rub]

We do know the politcal situation Scott-situation is normal-all fucked up- and we are in the middle of it. All thanks to a group of politcal hacks who would never allow their own sons or daughters to be on the front line,(let alone risk their own skins). Absolutely predictable and disgusting. Any one who stands behind this crap, ****s on all our service people.

[Chris Coose]

BTW, Am I the only one whose first thought on seeing the thread title was the old Marvin Gaye song?

"War is not the answer. . ."
Funny thing Wayne when I saw the title I began to hum a modified Gershwin number.

" A foggy day in Baghdad town,
it had me low and it had me down.

I viewed the morning with much alarm.....

This "get SH" folly seemed to have little occupation planning built in, unless of course, one might believe that some inspiration came from the corporate offices in the white house.

Corporations seem to be lousy war planners, if, of course, this is the case.

I had a cousin return to Afganistan last week. He's been "moved from Communications to Contracts."

[Garrett Lowell]

Originally posted by Dutch Rub:
We do know the politcal situation Scott-situation is normal-all fucked up- and we are in the middle of it. All thanks to a group of politcal hacks who would never allow their own sons or daughters to be on the front line,(let alone risk their own skins). Absolutely predictable and disgusting. Any one who stands behind this crap, ****s on all our service people.AND:

"Whatevers going to happen is going to happen- just dont let it happen to you."

[Scott Rosen]

Donn,

True story. I was defending a deposition of a potential witness in a case. This witness was a colorful character who like to use colorful language. But because the deposition was on the record and could be submitted to the court, the witness softened his approach.

When asked what he knew, his answer was "bupkes." The adversary knew what it meant, and continued to ask probing questions designed to trick the witness into showing that he had some knowledge of the case. He must have answered "bupkes" twenty times.

A month later, we get the written transcript of the deposition. The court reporter, a youngish woman with somthing else on her mind, apparently didn't know Yiddish and was afraid to ask.

Bupkess came out as "Butt Kiss."

I'd love to know what she was thinking.

[Donn]

:D

[Gresham CA]

Scott, she was thinking about FOOTBALL! There was a WENDY"S commercial on many years back with the "Where's the beef?" lady and Dick Butkus, I saw the out-takes for when they made that commercial and the old lady looks up at Dick and says "What the hell kinda name is that anyway, BUTT KISS?"

[Scott Rosen]

:D With a name like Butkus, he had to be tough.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I don't want to sound scolding but a US soldier was killed today :( While I enjoy a linguistic banter thread as much as the next guy I do think it may be in poor taste to hijack this one. On the CNN footage a bunch of Iraqis were cheering the GI death ( way more than were helping to pull down that Sadam statue ) These looked like local people some younk kids even whats the deal with that I thought they loved the freadom we provided ? Seriouse question Im not being sarcastic

Note: BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A U.S. soldier was killed Wednesday in an attack on a convoy in Baghdad, bringing the number of American battle deaths in the Iraqi conflict to 148 -- the same number as in the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

[ 07-16-2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[NormMessinger]

But, we can't back out now, can we.

However, we should be finding a nice roof top somewhere for the helicopters to land on in case it is needed just before the next election. :(

[ 07-16-2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: NormMessinger ]

[Gresham CA]

Sorry about highjacking your thread. But let me put it in perspective for you. I work for the Department of Transportation and every day 3 people die on this states roads. That makes a connection to me. If I got all worked up over that like you are worked up over someone that I assume you don't know from Adam's house cat, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. So I do everything I can through my job to reduce that. What can you(me also) do to help reduce the number of casualties(sp?) in Iraq? Nothing. So the best the both of us can do is keep our sense of humor and when it comes time to vote, VOTE. It's tragic, it's terrible, and it happened. I'm not better than you and you aren't better than me because of the way we handle things. Now I'm tired of being serious and wont highjack your thread anymore.

[Mr. Know It All]

"You know we got to find a way, to bring some love in here today."

~Marvin Gaye~
"Whats Going On"

[Eric Sea Frog]

I'd differ from the article on a point:
Germany and France don't rule out sending their reserves. They simply ask a UN mandate.
P'sperity W has been opposing this for weeks.

[Greg H]

It's official boys and girls, we got ourselves a geurilla war....

From the VOA
http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=94531BFB-17D7-4F9B-A13474255386716D
CENTCOM: US Facing Guerrilla War in Iraq
VOA News
16 Jul 2003, 20:14 UTC


The new head of the U.S. Central Command says U.S. troops in Iraq are facing a
classic guerilla war led by people loyal to ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

General John Abizaid says members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party are among those
behind the almost- daily attacks on U.S.-led coalition forces. He says the attacks are
becoming increasingly sophisticated.

General Abizaid spoke at the Pentagon Wednesday after a wave of attacks around the
Iraqi capital of Baghdad left one U.S. soldier dead and several wounded. In one incident,
an Iraqi boy was killed when an assailant tossed a grenade at U.S. soldiers guarding a
central Baghdad bank.

And, a surface-to-air missile was fired at - but missed - a C-130 military transport
plane as it was landing at Baghdad airport.

In another incident, the mayor of the Iraqi city of Hadithah was shot and killed after
residents reportedly accused him of cooperating with American forces. U.S. military
officials say Mohammed Nayil al-Jurayfi's son was also killed in the attack.

Hadithah lies northwest of Baghdad, in a Sunni Muslim area that has been particularly
hostile to the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq.

The attacks come on the anniversary of the date in 1979 when Saddam Hussein seized
power in Iraq. Thursday marks the day Saddam's Baath Party seized power in 1968.

The U.S. military has been concerned that Saddam loyalists will commemorate the
dates by stepping up attacks against U.S. troops.

Hostile fire has killed at least 33 U.S. soldiers since May 1, when the United States
declared major combat in the country over.

Some information for this report provided by AP and Reuters.

[km gresham]

Greg, I HATE THAT!

[flatbottom]

I hate to say it but this beginning to look like lebanon in the 1980's.

It was predicted by the administration we would be welcomed with open arms, turns out the welcome is with small arms.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

FALLUJAH, Iraq (July 16) -- The sergeant at the 2nd Battle Combat Team Headquarters pulled me aside in the corridor. "I've got my own 'Most Wanted' list," he told me.

He was referring to the deck of cards the U.S. government published, featuring Saddam Hussein, his sons and other wanted members of the former Iraqi regime.

"The aces in my deck are Paul Bremer, Donald Rumsfeld, George Bush and Paul Wolfowitz," he said.

He was referring to the four men who are running U.S. policy here in Iraq -- the four men who are ultimately responsible for the fate of U.S. troops here.

Those four are not popular at 2nd BCT these days. It is home to 4,000 troops from the 2nd Brigade of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division.

The soldiers were deployed to Kuwait last September. They were among the first troops in Baghdad during the war. And now they've been in the region longer than other troops: 10 months and counting.

They were told they'd be going home in May. Then in early July. Then late July. Then last week they heard that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had mentioned them on Capitol Hill.

"The 2nd Brigade is — the plan is that they would return in August, having been there something like 10 months," said Rumsfeld.

He added: "The services and the Joint Staff have been working with Central Command to develop a rotation plan so that we can, in fact, see that we treat these terrific young men and young women in a way that's respectful of their lives and their circumstances."

Solid words from a solid source. Soldiers called their families. Commanding officers began preparations.

‘I Don’t Care Anymore’

Now comes word from the Pentagon: Not so fast.

The U.S. military command in Iraq said Tuesday it plans to complete the withdrawal of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division by September, but officials said they could make no hard promises because of the unsettled state of security in Baghdad and elsewhere in Iraq.

"If Donald Rumsfeld were sitting here in front of us, what would you say to him?" I asked a group of soldiers who gathered around a table, eager to talk to a visiting reporter.

"If he was here," said Pfc. Jason Punyahotra, "I would ask him why we're still here, why we've been told so many times and it's changed."

In the back of the group, Spc. Clinton Deitz put up his hand. "If Donald Rumsfeld was here," he said, "I'd ask him for his resignation."

Those are strong words from troops used to following orders. They say they will continue to do their job, but they no longer seem to have their hearts in the mission.

"I used to want to help these people," said Pfc. Eric Rattler, "but now I don't really care about them anymore. I've seen so much, you know, little kids throwing rocks at you. Once you pacify an area, it seems like the area you just came from turns bad again. I'd like this country to be all right, but I don't care anymore."

Wondering Why

What they care about is their families. Sgt. Terry Gilmore had to call his wife, Stacey, this week to her that he wouldn't be home in a few weeks to see her and their two little children.

"When I told her, she started crying," Gilmore said, his eyes moistening. "I mean, I almost started crying. I felt like my heart was broken. We couldn't figure out why they do it. Why they can keep us over here right after they told us we were coming home."

Sgt. Felipe Vega, who oversees the platoon, sat alone in the platoon quarters, writing a letter. A photo of his wife, Rhonda, was taped to the wall above him.

It is Vega's job to maintain morale. That's not easy, he told me, when the Army keeps changing the orders.

"They turn around and slap you in the face," he said.

When asked if that's the way it feels, he said, "Yeah, kicked in the guts, slapped in the face."

Losing Faith

The 2nd Brigade originally came to Kuwait for six months of exercises. Then they stayed to fight the war. Like the others, Vega thought that would be the end of it.

"What was told to us in Kuwait," he said, "was the fastest way to go home was through Baghdad. And that's what we did."

But more than three months later they are still here.

"Well it pretty much makes me lose faith in the Army," said Pfc. Jayson Punyhotra, one of the soldiers grouped around the table. "I mean, I don't really believe anything they tell me. If they told me we were leaving next week, I wouldn't believe them."

Fighting words from men who are eager to put down their weapons. *

Copyright 2003 ABC News.

[km gresham]

So this guy, like Private Benjamin joined the army with the condos and the spas :rolleyes:
Maybe he can sue. I have military men in my family, well, one of them was killed in battle, but they all understood, to a man, that there's no cryin in the military. You go where they send you, for as long as they send you and it can change at a moments notice.
What, he thought he was joining boy scouts? He won't last long with his more seasoned fellow soldiers.
Oh and the wives and children understood this too. They missed each other, but it was all part of being in the SERVICE. I don't remember too many tears from wives - they were too busy being mother and father and doing the work of raising the family.

Was this reported by an Iraqi newspaper?

[Greg H]

I hate it too. There has been Enough Death on all sides. But it is what it is. We've set ourselves up and are going to pay for our bravado.
(I fear) It is written.

:(

[John of Phoenix]

So this guy... THIS GUY?

It is home to 4,000 troops...
They were told they'd be going home in May. Then in early July. Then late July. ...
Now comes word from the Pentagon: Not so fast. ...
The sergeant
Spc. Clinton Deitz
Pfc. Jason Punyahotra
Pfc. Eric Rattler
Sgt. Terry Gilmore
Sgt. Felipe Vega (It is Vega's job to maintain morale. That's not easy, he told me, when the Army keeps changing the orders.)

This guy? No Private Benjamin in that outfit. People just don't like being lied to.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by km gresham:
Was this reported by an Iraqi newspaper?Read above

Copyright 2003 ABC News. Additionally Karen your pretty sanctimonious for a person who has never been on the front lines and told repeatedly you are going home. Think about your boys. Think about one of them over there, think about how you would worry and were told that they were all coming home next week. Ohh no sorry the week after next, no sorry 2 more months of deployment. Now put your self in the shoes of one of your boys. Lets say he is 20 years old never been away more than 50 mi from home send him off for a year or so and then tell him he is going home next week no the week after no 2 more months. Its a little disheartening - ahhh but neither you nor I have EVER been in that position so its awfully easy to say suck up solder and DEAL WITH IT. Nice Monday morning qback Karen, you go sit in a sandstorm 5,000 mi away from you family and watch your friends get put in a body bag and you be a hard ass then it would carry more weight.

[Donn]

John...weren't you a chopper jock in RVN? Did you have a guarantee on how long you'd be there? I didn't, and I was just a grunt communicator.

[Donn]

..Additionally Karen your pretty sanctimonious for a person who has never been on the front lines and told repeatedly you are going home. . And how much time do you have on the front lines, Joe?

[km gresham]

yeh, yeh, yeh, does this mean I'm not invited to the BBQ? Everyone when they join up should know what is involved with their job. You knew what was involved when you started your company and it blew up on you. I don't see you complaining that you were told things different from what really happened. You had no control over the world and neither do they. But you took a chance and they did too. I"m still proud that they are serving our country.

[John of Phoenix]

Yes Donn, I was an Army Cobra pilot. The deal was a year and you're back to the States unless you volunteered to extend the tour for six months at a time.

[km gresham]

Thank you Donn. I know you aren't taking up for me but thank you for the men on the lines doing their jobs and not complaining.

[ 07-16-2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by km gresham:
So this guy, like Private Benjamin joined the army with the condos and the spas :rolleyes:
Maybe he can sue. I have military men in my family, well, one of them was killed in battle, but they all understood, to a man, that there's no cryin in the military. You go where they send you, for as long as they send you and it can change at a moments notice.
What, he thought he was joining boy scouts? He won't last long with his more seasoned fellow soldiers.
Oh and the wives and children understood this too. They missed each other, but it was all part of being in the SERVICE. I don't remember too many tears from wives - they were too busy being mother and father and doing the work of raising the family.

Was this reported by an Iraqi newspaper?Dose anyone see WHY I HATE JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING KAREN POST'S !!!!!

This one is a real insight into her mind it should be carved into stone and used on her grave to enlighten everyone as to her state of mind. WOW :eek:

So what your saying Karen is, support our troops, unless any of them complain then shove them in the same liberal slander you use for everyone else hun?

[Meerkat]

And, there being no freedom of speech in the service of a republic, the soldiers seen on TV are now being confronted with the possibility of court martial.

Integrity and fair dealing: if you can't expect it from the Whitehouse, why should you expect it from the military leadership?

Just what are those guys fighting for again?

[ 07-16-2003, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Donn]

Originally posted by John Teetsel:
Yes Donn, I was an Army Cobra pilot. The deal was a year and you're back to the States unless you volunteered to extend the tour for six months at a time.Or unless you were extended, or dead. I rode with a lot of chopper jocks, all over SE Asia, and not a one of them had a rotation date. You were lucky...probably because you were in the Army.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Donn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />..Additionally Karen your pretty sanctimonious for a person who has never been on the front lines and told repeatedly you are going home. . And how much time do you have on the front lines, Joe?</font>[/QUOTE]Donn as I said and I think in your regard have said numerous times - THANK YOU for your service you have my enduring respect.

I also said in the above post that Karen and I BOTH have no experience. I do know Donn that if there was a conflict during the period I could have severed I would have and I pray I could have served with as much courage and honor as you and your fellow servicemen. When I watched the towers fall IN FRONT OF ME, Karen !!! The second I saw them fall I was 2 blocks away from the military enlistment office on 42nd St. It took my wife ( on my cell phone ) and all of my friend to talk me out of enlisting there on the spot. So I don't have front line experience. But I would never mock anyone who has.

[Donn]

Joe...keep that in mind when you ask someone else what their experience with war is. That's all I ask. Well, maybe not all. If you had actually joined up that day, would you have put a time limit on your active duty? Would you have said, I'll go for X days, and then you have to bring me home?

[John of Phoenix]

All through my career, we used to listen to the troops bitch about the food in the mess hall and wonder why because they’d ALWAYS bitch about the food. Hell, everyone would bitch occasionally. Well, the best CO I ever had told me, “Sometimes the troops bitch ‘cuz we’ve worked ‘em too hard. Sometimes they bitch ‘cuz they’ve got too much time on their hands. But SOMETIMES they bitch ‘cuz the food’s bad. A good officer’s gotta listen to the troops and figure it out.” My call is these guy’s are pissed ‘cuz they feel they’ve been lied to a couple of times too many. My guess is the officers are starting to get pissed too and it spills over to the Enlisted Men. It’s a GUESS, but I’ve been there before.

[Edit to respond to Donn's post] The one year tour was typical of Army duty except General Officers. Everywhere I went, guy's would have calendars marked with big X's counting down the days till they hopped on a "Freedom Bird" back to the "World"

[ 07-16-2003, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: John Teetsel ]

[Gresham CA]

Joe, I said I would stay out of this but Karen hasn't "mock"ed anyone who has served. She has said that ANYONE who signs up KNOWS they aren't signing up for the Boy Scouts. We have friends and family serving now and they knew what they were getting into when they signed up. They were in way past their enlistment terms and didn't bitch about it because they knew what was going on. Each and every man that signs on KNOWS WHAT THE SCORE IS! And most of them don't whine about it.

If you feel like you've been tag teamed LIVE WITH IT!

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

NO, Donn I think you know me well enough to know that I would do the grunt work and not complain. I'm annoyed that Karen of all people should be sounding off as to how these young boys who are on the front line should feel. I wanna see how calm cool and collected she is when one of her boys are out there on the FL for and extended tour. The only known formite I know on here that has spoken of that is Oyster and he commands my respect on this subject as well

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Gresham CA:
Joe, I said I would stay out of this but Karen hasn't "mock"ed anyone who has served.

If you feel like you've been tag teamed LIVE WITH IT!Charles, your and idiot if you don't consider Karen's quote blow as MOCKING


Originally posted by km gresham:
So this guy, like Private Benjamin joined the army with the condos and the spas
Maybe he can sue.And yea everyone see's you and Karen as tag teaming

[Donn]

Yeah, John..we carried "short sticks." Walking stick/canes, notched with the days we had left in-country. It didn't always work out according to our plans.

[Donn]

Joe..shut yer stupid yap. You've got no idea what you're talking about, and no place to be talking about it.

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Donn:
Joe..shut yer stupid yap. You've got no idea what you're talking about, and no place to be talking about it.Neither of those have ever seemed to stop you Donn. Who died and made you Miss Manners anyway?

[Donn]

Again with the rat sticking his pointy nose where it has no place. You're a purebred loser, meer...can't argue, can't earn, and, most importantly, can't compete.

[John of Phoenix]

Short sticks. Man, GI's are inventive.

You posted a pic in the "Who we are pictorial" thread, if my feeble memory serves me at all, where you were waiting for a helicopter ride to hop a Freedom Bird. That’s a good feeling, going home, isn’t it?. I hope a whole bunch of youngsters get to experience that feeling very soon.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Donn:
Joe..shut your stupid yap. You've got no idea what you're talking about, and no place to be talking about it.Been drinking Donn?
I just sat here and praised you to high hell and thanked you for your service told you I only hoped if I was called up to have the same courage you and your fellow service men have shown. You wanna go toe to toe with me again jack ass tuff guy ;)

[Donn]

John...you remember correctly, and that filght was 2 months late, and I was pissed.

Joe...like I said...you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Mrleft8]

OK.... So.... Name calling and insults aside, the fact remains that the personel interviewed expressed the oppinion that they'd been lied to by the secretary of defense, and no longer had much faith in their mission, or intrest in being where they were. Wouldn't prudence suggest that those guys might not be the best personel to have in a war zone?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Joe...like I said...you have no idea what you're talking about.[/QB]Ohh and Karen dose???

[Donn]

Lefty....I'd wouldn't let a liberal anti-war press interview them in the first place.

Joe...I haven't said a word about Karen's experience with war...just yours.

[John of Phoenix]

I don't know about that. Anybody who WANTS to be in a war zone is probably suspect to begin with. smile.gif

[ 07-16-2003, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: John Teetsel ]

[LeeG]

Joe, I'm curious to know what's going to happen. When a 30yr old dictatorship comes down but the the upper tier soldiers and former Baath party elite are still around I can't imagine the number of soldiers needed to fill the power vacuum could be less than it is now.

[oldriverat]

You guys take this way too seriously.

[Mr. Know It All]

We can talk all the crap we want, doesn't change anything......does it? It's just talk. Truthfully, I can't see what the hell we're arguing about. We all agree those guys need a break and should be rotated out. Some of us believe they shouldn't be there in the first place. I'll keep my opinion until someone calmly explains why I should think otherwise and all the huffing and puffing won't change my mind. :D
Peace-----&gt; Kevin in Ohio

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Donn:
Joe...I haven't said a word about Karen's experience with war...just yours.So lets Donn, How tuff a fighting unit do you think the 4,000 troops from the 2nd Brigade of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division are ?? Ya happy with her calling them Private Benjamin who joined the army with the condos and the spas ? Ya wanna pick on me and she called the 3rd Infantry Division Private Benjamin ?

[Mrleft8]

Good point John!

[John of Phoenix]

Originally posted by Memphis Mike:
You guys take this way too seriously."this" means what exactly, Mike?

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

My two cents:

A lot of the reason I never wanted to see any western country get involved in this situation is because of the culture difference. This part of the world stones adulterous women to death for chrissake. We are NOT going to be able to impose a style of moral economy on these people. They know a lot less about westerners than we do about them (which isn't much either!)and they live in a culture which has accepted a much higher level of violence and a lower level of civility for a very long time. How do you fight people who are willing to blow themselves up? Until the US gets out, these attacks will not stop, nor will they stop shooting each other after you leave. The middle east and the west don't just have different rules, they're not even playing the same game!!! Some of these people are A)loyal to Saddam B)starving, poor and pissed off C)Hate americans D)aren't even Iraqis D)like playing with weapons.E)fighting a holy war against anyone they choose

I was a kid during the Vietnam war. I watched it on TV, and it still upset the hell out of me. I wouldn't wish this conflict on America. Ever.

[Mr. Know It All]

Very well said Pete. We seem to forget the lessons learned in other wars and are destined to repeat the same mistakes. I hope not but this all looks too familiar. :(

[John of Phoenix]

Peter you left out F)all of the above.

My experience in Iran during the Great Islamic Revolution left me puzzled as to how to describe the values of that part of world. I came to the conclusion that it would be easier to make Westerners understand things by thinking of them as from a different planet and I suspect that may be how we are thought of in many places over there. We are Aliens on our own planet. There are huge differences between our cultures and there seem to be elements on both "sides" that are hell bent to impose the values of one side on the other. The future is not going to be easy.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

John, the unfortunate part of this situation is the ideals that the US and Britain went in with. They're reasonable ideals... democracy, religious freedom, better services, justice etc....but when you are deposing a long term dictatorship, its hard for people to imagine the other way. These people don't know how we live... period. The alien comparison is a fair one I think. The only way you could win in this conflict is to cast aside all the ideals you are hoping to leave behind, and seriously stomp some ass, just as you could have nuked North Korea or Vietnam. That just doesn't appeal to the american sense of fair play.... but these folks DON"T PLAY FAIR, and won't for a long time to come. So what happens now? .. I hate to see young men under orders get picked away at like this... :(

[LeeG]

here's a short bit of what's going on,,out of context, no network,,just one persons experience
http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/

[Wild Wassa]

Frank Gafney was on the TV this morning so were a few soldiers.

When one soldier was asked, "what would you say to Rumsfeld if he was here?" The reply was, "I would ask him for his resignation." Cool. Then a senior US Officer warned US soldiers not to critisize the US's leaders, :eek: .

BUT, Gafney's comment said it all this morning. "If the Iraqis aren't going to help or co-operate with US forces, we will lose interest in them." If you were invaded would you be a collaberator?

I think I can see which way things are going to go now, ... now that "the coalition is involved in a classic guerilla war (the comment from a Senior US Officer)."

Warren.

ps, Things are looking wobbly over here too.

[ 07-17-2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[flatbottom]

It sticks in my craw to hear people who are sitting in thier safe comfortable homes critise these young soldiers for expressing thier views. Unless you are there now you have no damn idea what it is like! The military has changed a lot since Vietnam and even since the Gulf war. These kids were sent over on the bubble of Presidential rhectoric thst implied a quick and glorious victory with Iraqis cheering them in the streets. Blame the brass and washington for discontent among the fighting soldiers

[Wild Wassa]

Flatbottom, I hope you didn't read in to my posting that I was criticizing the soldiers. It is the Coalitions Leaders who are the war criminals, not the soldiers, sailors and airmen.

Warren.

[Meerkat]

One wonders if the US military has become so shrunken (or over-comitted) that there simply are no troops to rotate into Iraq to relieve those already there. Perhaps the economy can't handle calling up more reservists.

[Wild Dingo]

Will I? Wont I?...

Nah buggar it... it aint worth the crap that gets thrown if ones opinion differs from those with experience of past wars... cause I cant have an opinion cause I havent been to war or in the services... I should shut the hell up and say nothing cause my opinion doesnt count... or so it should be according to some.

I for one hope the powers that be in charge of it all wake the hell up!!... and get them out of there!... I once heard the statement that there is "nothing more dangerous than an army with bad moral and poor leadership"

oh ****e Ive just commented!!... buggar it!! :rolleyes:

[LeeG]

hey Shane,,I'm afraid we're IN. If we pull out now it'll be worse than when SH was in power making all those WOMD and plotting the overthrow of Texas. It looks like GW will go around looking for allies to help set up an occupying force and whoever is the next president will have to continue the westernization of Iraq.

[Dutch Rub]

The woman gets a pass due to cleavage Joe...... I assume there is some......

hey don juan why don't you shove it ya fat ass blowhard- I ain't impressed with you in the least-frankly I bet you were the biggest pussy in the bush or was that bush on the pussy? :D

[stan v]

This is not war. This is terrorism. The same that could be in our streets without a forward presence (in Iraq) to prevent it from developing here. I don't want to live like the Israelis. For those that are ready to give up (the same ones that didn't want to get involved in the first place) and pull out, have you any idea what that would mean? Any idea what the Muslim terrorists and holy war participants would think of the west, and America in particular? France, Franada, Germany, Australia (to an extent) have already caved. Dictatorships still reign at the UN. Who you gonna call on when freedom is at stake? Who you gonna call when your way of life is threatened? Do you always quit when things get tough?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by stan v:
This is not war. This is terrorism. Morning Stanley, your not trying to are you say that Iraqis are the guys that flew those terrorist planes are you ??? Or that the US invading Iraq was to fight terrorism ?? I thought it was WOMD ( did we get any yet ?? ) or to free those happy Iraqis who are now firing rocket propelled grenade's at our boys. I thought they were jumping in the streets with joy over there freedom. I remember seeing them pulling that statue down over and over on TV. Hey were is the 24/7 WAR IN IRAQ on FNC & CNN, MSNBC etc ? How come my TV doesn't look all night vision green. Hey while were at it where is that OSBL dude what's going on in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan hun Stan ?? Oh yea and geeezus, Stanley did ya hear about N. Korea they ACTUALLY have more uranium than in all of Nigeria and Iraq combined, Stanley please please I'm scared what are we gonna do about that?
Oh never mind I just heard Its all George Tenants fault.

[LeeG]

Stan, there's some room to move between "who ya gonna call?" and "doing nothing, caving in".
You and I aren't going to live like Israel,,but Iraq might feel like a refugee camp unless services and security get on line. All those republican soldiers didn't walk into the coalition forces detention areas and submit to "the new leader". They've flowed back into their homes. To not see that this is a guerrilla war as though "guerilla war" is a word like "WOMD" is amazing.
It's a guerilla war for the citizens against criminals, it's a guerilla war for the citizens against the random violence, it's a guerilla war for the citizens against the people attacking the infrastructure.
It's a guerilla war for the US soldier.

"I don't have any clue as to why we are still in Iraq," said another.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3073549.stm

You see Stan it does matter that we entered into this unilaterally. It does matter when the connection between Al Queda, 9/11 and invasion of Iraq are mixed together like an enchilada and the chef tries to convince you it's really an egg roll. Come on Stan,,you can "support our troops" and use your head.

[oldriverat]

Originally posted by John Teetsel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Memphis Mike:
You guys take this way too seriously."this" means what exactly, Mike?</font>[/QUOTE]Not that it isn't a serious situation. Please don't get me wrong. It means that people are using the forum to argue and fight and it isn't doing a bit of good. I know from experience that you can put too much stock in this place and it can be upsetting if you let it. It's a web forum, it has to be kept in perspective. If you read these posts, there are clearly some people that are upset with each other in here. Do you want to give another that much power over your life? I don't and won't anymore.

[LeeG]

here you go stan,,this is a form of domestic terrorism

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3070063.stm

Remember the great offense taken by the citizens about necessary house to house searches and the protest was framed in terms of "you can't come into our homes when there are only women and the man isn't present".
Yes the terrorism is from within. But this is how big of a mess we have entered into. It's not just "300,000 troops moved 6,000 miles in one month!"
It's removing a structure that confined the terrorism to a familiar set of circumstances,,the Baath party, army and dictatorship,,,and opened it up to anarchy. We are responsible for replacing that dictatorship with an equal level of strength,,,without the terror. The problem is that the capacity for domestic terrorism didn't end when the Baghdad airport was taken over,,it's simply waiting. Remember when Saddam opened the jails? Ok,,that keeps us and the Iraq citizen busy. This job of what happens AFTER the war IS THE WAR. The terrorism is happening over there,,not here.

[LeeG]

stan,,,I meant to include this link for the kinds of terrorism Iraq is dealing with and why the terrorism you are refering to isn't the terrorism the US soldier and occupying forces are dealing with. I gather the terrorism you are refering to is 9/11 or men with moustaches driving taxis.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3070063.stm

[LeeG]

QUOTE]Not that it isn't a serious situation. Please don't get me wrong. It means that people are using the forum to argue and fight and it isn't doing a bit of good. I know from experience that you can put too much stock in this place and it can be upsetting if you let it. It's a web forum, it has to be kept in perspective. If you read these posts, there are clearly some people that are upset with each other in here. Do you want to give another that much power over your life? I don't and won't anymore.[/QB][/QUOTE]

good point mike,,,,every once in a while though someone like Andrew or Jim say something that educates me so it's worth it.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

MMike, I get what your saying and yea I thought I could stay out of the political banter on this forum and just post my usual silly posts or house problem threads. Buuuut, I think if people who share my position do not speak out we will all be drowned out by the Stan's and Karen's cut & Paste and this forum will be much less balanced. I would prefer the name calling be curtailed (guilty of it myself) I will say that with open discussion of the issues we all can learn. I know I'm more aware of the issues due to this forum. I tell my family and friends all I ever need to know I learn from the WBF :eek: Scary hun ???

[km gresham]

This, I do know - there are whiners and complainers in every walk of life. And there are people who keep their complaints to themselves and do the job they've taken on. I have men in my office, well paid men with pretty cushy jobs who whine and complain about some slight, real or imagined, every single day.
.
These men in this tough situation in Iraq are doing a job not many want, and I think it is doubly hard on those keeping their mouths shut about the hardships to have whiners spouting off at every opportunity about the unfairness of it all.

But as I said they're in every walk of life and those who work with them must suffer the company of the complainers.

I am thankful for all those who serve with grace and courage and dedication under the worst of conditions and in the worst of places. Their numbers are legion in our armed services. When you have lost someone dear to you in a war you aren't very sympathetic to those who are whining about having to stay somewhere longer than they expected. They still have breath to complain.

[stan v]

WoodenheadJoe, what grit sandpaper do you use on your head?

[Mrleft8]

.... And the band played on, da dadda da da, da dadda da dee..... ;)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Nice job backpediling Karen. :rolleyes: Long way away from your mocking ( yea I said mocking Charles ) calling 4,000 troops from the 2nd Brigade of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division Private Benjamin who joined the army with the condos and the spas ?

[stan v]

I don't think Karen was mocking. I do know that to post that one was so upset over 9/11 that they 'almost' joined the military is pretty weak.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by stan v:
WoodenheadJoe, what grit sandpaper do you use on your head?I use the mach 3 turbo

http://www.gillette.com/investors/annual_report/2000/fundamental_strengths/images/mach3_side.gif

You might want to try it on one of these next time. For that sexy smooth look you like in your gerbils
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/ggifs/Gerbil_bw.GIF

[km gresham]

I agree, Stan. There were many who actually did join after 9/11 and their wives and friends didn't even try to talk them out of it. The recruiting offices were full. And if you'll notice Joe, if you can, I only compared the complainers to Private Benjamin. Those who were not complaining didn't make good copy.

[stan v]

I've seen a photo of Fearkitty before.

Having thought about your 'almost joining' post I realize I may have jumped to the wrong conclusion. It may mean that in the event of an emergency in NY you may be willing to defend your ground. Now, this could mean a belligerent customer at your grill and you in full uniform (chef's hat and spatula) you would be willing to go on the offensive?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by km gresham:
I agree, Stan. There were many who actually did join after 9/11 and their wives and friends didn't even try to talk them out of it. The recruiting offices were full. And if you'll notice Joe, if you can, I only compared the complainers to Private Benjamin. Those who were not complaining didn't make good copy.Karen, did you enlist ????
Did any of your boys enlist ??
I'm 38 a husband and father
I own a failing business
My wife would have lost the house
There would have been no support system for them. It would have left my family destitute. But I did have to be talked out of it-I'm not ashamed of it. I applaud those that dropped everything and went, had I been 10 years younger there would be no talking me out of it, what's so ever. I chose to share that with all of you because that's how I honestly felt - like I said I hold no regrets. Karen or Stan do you ever regret anything you say? I know the president sure dose he regrets that line in the state of the union speech.

[ 07-17-2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[km gresham]

Joe, do you ever regret anything you say? ;)

[stan v]

Goob, if you're gonna attack women, be prepared for the flak.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Gerbil boy don't you know there is no sexism on the Internet were all fair game smile.gif Besides Karen is just another name for Stan in my book :D

[km gresham]

Well, Joe, I know you're insulting somebody, but which one of us? tongue.gif

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Maybe Karen IS Stan in drag ;)
BTW Karen/Stan you never answered my question, on 9/11 did you enlist ????
Did any of your boys enlist ??

[Mrleft8]

No WAY Joe! Stan's dresses are much more stylish! (And fit better too!) :D

[ 07-17-2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Mrleft8 ]

[Mr. Know It All]

You all have valid opinions that should be considered. Why can't we discuss this calmly and rationally without the insults? You are all good, caring people who would do whatever you could for those caught in a bad situation over there. We're on the same side aren't we?
Peace----&gt; Kevin in Ohio

[km gresham]

Both sons who were old enough went to enlist - both turned down for health reasons. I didn't try to talk them out of it. Had they gone in I would have understood and worried and supported them completely. Since you ask.

They don't take old women, Joe. Not yet anyway. :rolleyes:

[LeeG]

Originally posted by km gresham:
This, I do know - there are whiners and complainers in every walk of life. And there are people who keep their complaints to themselves and do the job they've taken on. I have men in my office, well paid men with pretty cushy jobs who whine and complain about some slight, real or imagined, every single day.
.
These men in this tough situation in Iraq are doing a job not many want, and I think it is doubly hard on those keeping their mouths shut about the hardships to have whiners spouting off at every opportunity about the unfairness of it all.

But as I said they're in every walk of life and those who work with them must suffer the company of the complainers.

I am thankful for all those who serve with grace and courage and dedication under the worst of conditions and in the worst of places. Their numbers are legion in our armed services. When you have lost someone dear to you in a war you aren't very sympathetic to those who are whining about having to stay somewhere longer than they expected. They still have breath to complain.Karen,,I can see where you're coming from a little better,,,all the criticism and comments against the war or the prez. is seen as non-productive and undermining of folks that are "doing the work". You are right on one level. When folks are doing something together and there's a complainer who doesn't come up with a solution or complains about things that no one can fix then they're a pain in the butt to be around,,and eventually they do undermine the task.
Aside from the propriety of that soldier speaking as he did isn't it possible to analyze and criticize as citizens and have that be our task as citizens?
When I grew up (60's) I was as far from the military as one could be. The loss of trust in the gov't folks talk about in the waning years of the Vietnam war and the Nixon era wasn't a feeling I had as I didn't come from a basis of a common goal/sacrifice as my parents experienced WWII. I didn't have a loss of anything other than a sense that "the grown-ups are screwing up,,I hope we make it to 1984" Now that I've lived a bit I have an appreciation of what the military and quasi military services like domestic police provide for our survival. I also have an appreciation for how precious and vital trust is. Sending young men and women off to war is something that we should all be able to agree on. Yes 9/11 was significant, and yes we hire politicians to run the show. But the trust of these soldiers and family back home is not to be screwed with. So when we're told we're battling terrorism,,and the source of that terrorism is a collection of forces,,of which Iraq is a small part it looks awfully risky for the gov't to go to war on so many assumptions.