A Question For The Devil Worshipers.

[TGP]

Do you think the Devil REALLY exists?

[J. Dillon]

Sometimes I think it is easier to beleive that a devil exists then a God. :(

JD

[huisjen]

From the atheist point of view, Satan is a Judeo-Christian Demi-God. So I guess you're asking the Christians?

Dan

[TGP]

IMO the Devil does indeed exist in men and women who haven't the adaquate spiritual program to ward him off.

[Donn]

Ob course de debil exists...he's in de detail! :D

[J. Dillon]

:D
JD

[LeeG]

he's got detail

[bamamick]

I believe it.

Mickey Lake

[NormMessinger]

But detail in man is vestigual, a couple three useless little bones. Therefore....

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste ;)

[JimD]

Originally posted by TGP:
Do you think the Devil REALLY exists?Its a good question and I certainly hope it gets 10 to 15 pages of responses. But more importantly, how does the devil fit in with Darwinism? Is not natural selection merely the survival of the most ruthless? Inquiring minds want to know. I won't be able to sleep until this matter is settled.

[LeeG]

well I'm with these folks,,there is no devil.

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Zoroastrim/zarathustra_and_the_devil.htm

[Victor]

Yes there is. He's the one who tells you you're your own man.

[mmd]

Of course there is a Devil. He leads innocents to evil through temptation. The evil in our world is fiberglass and the temptation is the false promise of no maintenance. tongue.gif :D

[McB]

Originally posted by mmd:
Of course there is a Devil. He leads innocents to evil through temptation. The evil in our world is fiberglass and the temptation is the false promise of no maintenance. tongue.gif :D Now thats a practical application of religious teaching. :D :D

[TGP]

It's like a struggle between the good and evil. Say you're at the magazine rack. Do you pick the nice copy of WoodenBoat or do you pick the Hustler? Which little voice in your head is the loudest?

get the woodenboat.... NO, GET THE HUSTLER!!!!!!! NO, THE WOODENBOAT! no, the hustler. NO, THE WOODENBOAT!!!!!!!
ya folla? Which one would YOU pick? :D

[ 12-28-2004, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: TGP ]

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

I'd say in a loud voice......"Get thee behind me Satan" and pick up the "Woodenboat". ;) :D

I don't worship the devil. tongue.gif

I had a 77 Ford Thunderbird that was posessed by the devil for awhile. A little Holy Water in the radiator and that problem was solved. :cool:

[ 12-28-2004, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Know It All ]

[alteran]

I would get Wooden Boat for me and buy a Hustler so there would be one less to fall into the hands of a child.

[TGP]

" buy a Hustler so there would be one less to fall into the hands of a child."

Well, I have to admit that's the most original excuse I have ever heard. :D http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/ruinkai/FIREdevil.gif

[ 12-28-2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: TGP ]

[McB]

Why would you want to look at "Hustler".
You don't like plastic boats why would you like plastic boobs.

Nothing but the real thing for me, Wooden Boat and a great wife. They both get better with age, and are lower maintenence. :D :D :D

[George.]

Apparently many Christian scholars over the years have concluded that perhaps there is no hell, no devil. But they also concluded that, as a recruitment tool, the devil is better than the promise of heaven, so the masses should not be told...

You see, the fundament of most people's religious devotion is fear, and Christianity's great move, emulated by Islam, was inventing something really nasty for people to be afraid of... ;)

[Mrleft8]

Of course the devil exists. How can I be so sure? you ask.... I married her daughter.

[Jack Heinlen]

Two religious young Hindu men are travelling to find their guru in the foothills of the Himalayas. They are good friends, from boyhood, and have heard of a great holy man. They have pledged to become his followers together. After many days and nights on the road they stop for the evening at a roadside hut, take a sparse meal, say their prayers and fall asleep.

In the middle of the night one of the men hears a choking noise. In alarm he lights a candle and is horrified to see his friend choking himself, with his own hands. He shakes and finally rouses him from a deep sleep. After things settle down, and the fellow catches his breath, his rescuer asks, "What was happening?" The friend replies, "I dreamt that the Devil had me by the neck and was strangling me."

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The Devil exists. How can anyone survey the past hundred years and doubt that? Our impulse to wickedness is perfectly real.

[Larry P.]

Apparently many Christian scholars over the years have concluded that perhaps there is no hell, no devil. But they also concluded that, as a recruitment tool, the devil is better than the promise of heaven, so the masses should not be told...

You see, the fundament of most people's religious devotion is fear, and Christianity's great move, emulated by Islam, was inventing something really nasty for people to be afraid of.You really are an arrogant uneducated ass.

[huisjen]

Of course in the book of Job, Santa, er, Satan hangs out in the presence of God, there ready to say that Job is nothing special. Job is a very old book, even by old testament standards. When it was composed, "Satan" still held closer to it's original meaning (so I'm told) of "adversary".

Certainly there are adversaries in our lives.

Dan

[Ian McColgin]

Larry's response to George's hypothesis that priests might have invented Satan as a control device is a bit too condescendingly terse to be of much use.

Firstly, there are all too many fire and brimstone types who use a combination of fear and sado-masocistic imagery as a substitute for religous experience.

Secondly, the biblical authority regarding the devil is very confusing. References to the adversary/tempter are common - every bit as common as happens in normal human experience - but most jewish and christian scholars have managed to resist the temptations of gnostic dualism, leaving Satan's metaphysical status confused and his seperate ontology unprooven.

One way to look at it is that God allowed us free will but we are also flesh. Within us are both the Immago and Adam's stain. And that's really enough evil for any universe.

Many of us have confronted evil in two different ways.

We may have met true evil incarnated in a person. Such a person, not insane and not simply a sociopath, is a chilling experience.

People of real moral courage may have met that evil within themselves.

I don't count objective hard luck, storm at sea, avalanch, tsunamis etc as evil. Evil is not just bad but it's an affirmative human choise.

Whether one believes the biblical texts literally in a megar earthbound sense or spiritually, the language of judgement and redemption speak most powerfully to the reality (but not the cosmic duality) of evil. This monotheistic treatment of evil is profoundly different from what happens in dualistic religons whether they be dualisms of good and evil or dualisms of real and illusary.

There actually are contemporary devil worshipers. Some masquerade as one or another form of christian sect but a close look at their doctrines and leadership reveals the truth.

A few are exactly like the stereotype of witch covens. When I was 14 and just beginning my real spiritual adventures, I met such a group at night, around a fire, in suburban Connecticut of all places. Interesting folk at first with some captivating spiritual tricks. But in the end they were all people of low ambition seeking political and economic power. Exactly like people who go to church and pray for a new car.

The association of various forms of magic with politics and economic persuits is obvious anyway, as all three involve the symbolic manipulation of the natural universe. No wonder there are more spritualists and palm readers and tarot junkies in and around Washington DC than most anyplace else on the planet. It's distressing how many Pentagon (pentagon????) colonels and congressional aids visit these charactors.

Viewed this way, our public expression of christmas is the most blasphemous bit of mammon and devil worship to hit this planet. Even the Roman Empire at its most depraved did not sink to our depth.

Dear me.

Am I betraying my puritanical roots and my total contempt for mainstream society, trivial preachers, and chickenhawk hipocritical politicians again?

Sorry.

But being judgemental is such fun.

No. Really. I'll stop now.

[ken mcclure]

What Ian said.

Pentagon. Pentagram.

Carrot and stick. God and Devil.

[Garrett Lowell]

On the orgin of the pentagram:

from THE BOOK OF SIGNS:

“The pentagram, a five-pointed star (can be) drawn with one stroke of the pen...The pentagram has had several different significations at different times in the history of man...The Pythagoreans called it the pentalpha (because it looked like five capital ‘A’s’ interconnected), and the Celtic priests (called it) the witch’s foot. It is also known as Soloman’s Seal, known in the Middle Ages as the goblin’s cross...It also represented the five senses;...Amongst the Druids it was called the sign of the Godhead,...This sign was also populary believed to be a protection against demons, and, by analogy, a symbol of safety. It is believed, too, to be the emblem of happy homecoming, whence it’s employment as an amulet.”

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Quote by Larry P......"You really are an arrogant uneducated ass."

This is a personal attack and will possibly get you banned from the forum Larry. I suggest you reconsider your post, delete or edit and try to think of something better. :(

[Larry P.]

If I get banned so be it, but I find it amazing that he can feel free to post something that immediately attacks the intelligence of Christians and I need to worry about my response.

The debate on the existence or non existence of Satan/evil could be an interesting one, that I would be interested in taking part this fellow among others on the forum seem to be unable to debate anything without taking an insulting or condescending attitude toward others.

[George.]

Originally posted by Larry P.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Apparently many Christian scholars over the years have concluded that perhaps there is no hell, no devil. But they also concluded that, as a recruitment tool, the devil is better than the promise of heaven, so the masses should not be told...

You see, the fundament of most people's religious devotion is fear, and Christianity's great move, emulated by Islam, was inventing something really nasty for people to be afraid of.You really are an arrogant uneducated ass.</font>[/QUOTE]:rolleyes:

Why don't you for inform yourslef before you overreact? Look up what theologists have written on the devil and hell - I suggest Paul Johnson's "The History of Christianity" for starters. You may find that what I stated is fact, and that you are the arrogant uneducated ass.

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

I'm speaking from experience here Larry, you'll cool off and regret your words. Delete it and post something better later. Just a suggestion of course. ;)

George!?! :rolleyes:

[ 12-29-2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Know It All ]

[Ian McColgin]

Actually, I think that Larry's remark is not the sort that will or should ever be banned. Reading George carefully reveals that this is indeed an 'attack' on - more a critique of - certain strains of Christianity though hardly all. Despite Larry's claim to an interest in longer debate, the off-the-cuff snarl appears to fairly summarize his understanding of the issue. Honesty coupled with brevity is to be prized, even when it's unpersuasive.

One of the reasons I ended my earlier post as I did is that any effort to confront and understand evil involves very deep issues that must be passionatly encountered. A little self-deprication goes a long way towards defusing this stuff enough to even examin it.

And examine it we must. There are those who really don't get it about evil, who live so on the surface that they deny the actuality of evil.

There are also those who personalize it in destructive ways. Those of us with any counseling background (remember that my own clinical training was in pastoral counseling and not mainstream psychobabble) know that there is a pathological form to awareness of evil. My remarks about sado-masocism with all the sexual innuendo that implies were exactly pointed. There are some very sick puppies both preaching and in the pews.

No surprise there. Churches are human institutions. Congregations are collections of people. It's not always a dove that desends and not always god who is present in the gathering.

I much enjoyed the lighthearted aspects of this thread, especially the glassy nature of evil, but George was really trying to move us to the serious discussion and it's regrettable that anyone should think that a putdown would keep us off topic.

[Larry P.]

No my off the cuff snarl has more to do with not having a smoke for 36 hours. Ian I never underestimate your ability to understand or debate, perhaps you could extend the same courtesy.

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

36 hours without a smoke? :eek:
No wonder. :D
Cigarettes.....now there's a Devil. ;)

[George.]

Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
Actually, I think that Larry's remark is not the sort that will or should ever be banned. Reading George carefully reveals that this is indeed an 'attack' on - more a critique of - certain strains of Christianity though hardly all. I don't think Larry should be banned for that either - let's not overreact here.

My "attack" or critique was based on fact. There have been a number of theologists over the past thousand years who have concluded there is no such thing as hell, and a couple of them have actually written that even thus, that fact should not be revealed to the masses, because for ignorant people fear of hell is a more powerful inducement to piety than the promise of heaven.

If I had the time I might go look it up - it is in Paul Johnson's book among other sources - but I am leaving on our new year's cruise in a couple of hours, so you all will have to either trust me, doubt me, or look it up yourselves. :D

[George.]

I'll tell you what - here is a wager, a la Pascal. If the Devil exists, may he sink my boat and drown me over the holidays, for having doubted that his stinky ass exists. If not, I'll be posting pictures of our cruise! :D

[High C]

Originally posted by Mr. Know It All:
Quote by Larry P......"You really are an arrogant uneducated ass."

This is a personal attack and will possibly get you banned from the forum Larry. I suggest you reconsider your post, delete or edit and try to think of something better. :( What a superb example of double standard.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Have a good cruise in your lovely schooner, George, but don't go wagering with the Devil; the literature suggests that this is not the best plan!

My argument for faith is epistemological, not ontological, so Evil will not show up to claim your wager. ;)

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

May God protect you on your journey George....just in case eh? ;) :D

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Originally posted by High C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mr. Know It All:
Quote by Larry P......"You really are an arrogant uneducated ass."

This is a personal attack and will possibly get you banned from the forum Larry. I suggest you reconsider your post, delete or edit and try to think of something better. :( What a superb example of double standard.</font>[/QUOTE]Double standard?
How? :confused:
I don't believe I've called you an arrogant,uneducated ass......yet. :D

[ 12-29-2004, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Know It All ]

[km gresham]

Credit cards. And Chocolate. How much more evidence is needed of the devil's existance? :D

[Ian McColgin]

Because I often look to posts without fully knowing or remembering who the author is or what they are like, it occurrs to me that I might indeed have been a bit unfair to Larry.

Looking in the Msl Non-Boat over the last few weeks I see that on most topics Larry is a man of generous spirit. Especially in the Tsunami thread, Larry dragged things back from an ad hominem drivel. However, on Christmas Eve:

"No you guys are assuming dutch is telling a true story and not a bunch of crap. "
and further along:
"If the story is true the pastor should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Based on Dutch's past obnoxious posts I have doubts. "

However, almost everyone is irritated by Dutch most of the time and we thus may overlook Dutch's higher-minded contributions. It's a human failing and I'll not take that as emblematic of Larry's generally generous spirit.

Having just given up the weed, Larry is facing evil most starkly now and we may take it that he's less sure about George's erudition.

Given all that, I apologize for being brusque myself.

Come let us reason together.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by Mr. Know It All:
Quote by Larry P......"You really are an arrogant uneducated ass."

This is a personal attack and will possibly get you banned from the forum Larry. I suggest you reconsider your post, delete or edit and try to think of something better. :( It pales in comparison to George.'s behavior in the past month.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, I am going to give a simple straight answer to the question at the head of this thread.

Yes.

I need only look within myself to know that.

[Ian McColgin]

While we often think one more rude if our own ox was gored, I really must say that George, while never hiding his opinion of fellow forumites, does not generally make one line dismissals. It may be more obnixious, but he usually supplies well articulated reasons.

And Andrew is certainly right, he is the devil.

HehHehHeh.

More seriously, as evil is in-dwelling, which no serious Christian would deny, it takes a willing step away from ad hominem arguement for us to prohibit the devil from infecting this conversation.

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

I guess I'm unaware of that Jim.
If I saw George calling names, I'd give him the same advise.
I've said some stupid things here before in the heat of the moment and regreted it later. I was just trying to help Larry avoid that. As always with me, it's just a suggestion that you can take or leave. ;)

[ 12-29-2004, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Know It All ]

[Scott Rosen]

For me the question is this: Does it matter if the devil exists?

I don't think so. Evil, whether you personify it or not, is still evil. The danger, as Ian pointed out, is that some people don't recognize evil for what it is.

I'm a fairly simple thinker when it comes to matters of theology. I believe there is one god, who is unlimited in every way, and who can never be fully understood by mortals. I believe he exists beyond time, matter and thought, and that he is not constrained by the rules that govern the physical universe.

I find the Biblical myths to be helpful in gleaning god's intentions for us. God stopped creating the universe before it was perfected. If you remember, he declared it "good," not perfect. I do not understand the reasons for god's plan. I believe that man's purpose is to bring goodness to his fellows, and to attempt to perfect god's creation through goodness.

Based on those first principles, I conclude that god is all powerful and does not share his existence with any other god or divine beings. There is no being who can possibly coexist with god unless god has created him, and god cannot and would not create an evil being who was equal in power to god. Thus, to say that there is a devil who competes with god over the souls of men, is to say that god is not the supreme power in the universe. I cannot accept that.

Also, god embodies all things, good and evil. To say that god is all goodness and the devil is all evilness, is to limit god in ways that would deny to god the kingship of his realm. I can't do that.

To me, evil is a uniquely human thing. It is the absense of goodness, or more precisely, it exists where humans cease being good. Earthquakes and tsunamis are very destructive, but they are not 'evil.' Only humans can be evil. And we're pretty good at it, too.

The next issue to be addressed is, what is 'good.' I'm not going to even try to address this, except to quote the famous sage when asked, "Can you tell me the sum of the Torah while standing on one foot?"

To which Hillel replied, "Love your neighbor as yourself. All the rest is commentary. Now go and learn it."

[ 12-29-2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

[NormMessinger]

"It pales in comparison to George.'s behavior in the past month."

Say what? Especially in the evolution thread, perhaps. McColgin has been raising some intellectual hell too, eh.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by NormMessinger:
"It pales in comparison to George.'s behavior in the past month."

Say what? Especially in the evolution thread, perhaps. McColgin has been raising some intellectual hell too, eh.
Originally posted by George.:
That's right, Jim. If you rednecks didn't jail all the niggers you wouldn't need so many wetbacks to wipe your lilly-white politically-correct asses.

Oops, I'm sorry! You are not an ass, you are an elephant man! Stupid spic mistake, I'm sorry!

[LeeG]

Scott,,that works very well.
It's interesting how easy it is to dress up and personify evil outside ourselves than to catch the slippery slope we can skate upon.
That's why GWs Axis of Evil rhetoric is so bothersome. Imagine being characterized as a subject of an evil empire by another nations leader while the Geneva Conventions are put on the shelf for convenience sake.

[TGP]

"If I get banned so be it, but I find it amazing that he can feel free to post something that immediately attacks the intelligence of Christians and I need to worry about my response."

If ya get banned Larry, just let me know. I can pull some strings and get ya back on. No problem. :D

[ 12-29-2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: TGP ]

[ken mcclure]

A lot of thought has gone into this subject over the ages, and I doubt that I could add anything significant to the body of knowledge that has so far accumulated on the subject. Nonetheless I am compelled to step up and leave my mark on this tree.

I don't believe in the Devil as a particular independent being, but rather as an embodiment or actualization of an evil. In that we all have free will and the ability to choose to do good or do evil, we each have the potential to become a devil at any given moment.

Althought I haven't thought them all out, it occurs to me that there are some behaviors which are inherently evil. And I'd bet that the Ten Commandments cover most of them.

Perhaps rather than wading into a cesspool of traditional religious and personal dispute we could look at evil and The Devil from a more practical viewpoint.

[bromleigh]

Personification of evil deeds is as old as recorded history. Simply calling evil "The Devil
, and good "God", allows us to assuage our collective guilt over both "Evil", and "Good" deeds, and allows us to function ratioally.
Happy Bad Year!!!

[Rex Fearnehough]

I am astounded to find that I do not know what evil is.
There are of course the affronts to mankind that are generally accepted, Hitler, Idi Amin etc.
Now I have, in my own brain, hit a grey area. If for example a group, religion or whatever, have a belief system that sees an affront or threat to their own existence and they act and wipe out that threat.
Is that evil?
Or does evil depend on who perpetrates it and against whom?
I am trying very hard to stay in the contexts of the debate.
If a person knowingly lies and commits a murderous attack against another group is that evil?
Is there a scale to measure evil?

[McB]

Rex,
The Bible lays out three very simple guidlines to what is "evil" and I belive most would aggree with two of the three.
1. Does it hurt someone else?
2. Does it hurt or control you?
3. Does it effect your relationship with God?

Maybe over simplified but perhpas a start in forming a definition for Evil.

[Harry Miller]

Rex, trying to sell yourself wasn't evil but the fact that nobody bought you is.

[Rex Fearnehough]

A quick run down on my beliefs. I was baptised a protestant, at age 25yrs became Roman Catholic, my own choice. Shortly afterwards abandoned any organised religion. I sadly do not believe in God but try to live an ethical life. Was told by a priest friend that I was more christian than many of his parishioners. A Jewish friend told me I was notching up heaven points with my helping of others.
I will never knock anyones beliefs.
So here goes with the points that I wished to make.

McB. You gave me a biblical reference to the definition of evil and good they are too.
I hope that no-one will jump down my throat, when I say that the Bible was written by man and also became syncretic when necessary. Was translated and revised many times, was probably deliberately mis-translated to suit whatever purposes.
In this bible there are many exclusions and exemptions to what we would now say are evil deeds.
I cannot understand these allowances that are still made even today.
I am resisting the urge to give any examples.
In this day of accepting multi religions, how can we justify example 3?
Is a misguided evil still evil?
Harry, I have been bought/adopted and will be moving in early spring.

[McB]

Rex, Your comments are very interesting, and politely phrased.

Rex said.
"Was translated and revised many times, was probably deliberately mis-translated to suit whatever purposes."

I beg to differ. Translated? yes! Revised? No! Just the opposite every effort has been made and is today to be honest to the original text. Granted there may be frindge transaltions but UBS text is as pure as any antient text could ever be.

Rex Said
"In this bible there are many exclusions and exemptions to what we would now say are evil deeds."

Most of those situations should be seen in proper context.

Rex said
"I am resisting the urge to give any examples."

Please do. It may make for good debate.

Rex said
"In this day of accepting multi religions, how can we justify example 3?"

This is an example of what you mentioned in the first quote I made. To ignore this rule for me would be like making "deliberately mis-translated to suit whatever purposes."

Rex said
"Is a misguided evil still evil?"

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Could you get away with that for any civil crime?

Pat

[Ian McColgin]

All religions and most serious people share some notion of sin, of the imperfection or blemish or stain that comes with being human. The notion of Satan has evolved past a matter of degree to become a matter of kind: The evil embodied in the imagery of Satan is not just sin but is the active and willfull rejection of, and voluntary diobediance to, the good.

So far as I understand it, the three historical religions (Jews, Christians and Moslems) are unique in holding this notion of evil without being (at least those who understand their religion's orthodoxy) dualists.

This is a notion of evil quite different from dualism. For the dualist there are both light and dark, good and evil, yin and yang. For the historical monotheists there is only light which humans may either turn to or may turn from. In this view just as in physics, moral darkness is not a form of being. The evil darkness is the absence of light, the absence of being.

We all confront sin in ourselves. Many are lucky enough not to have looked on the face of evil.

[Rex Fearnehough]

This is a view that was held even before I was born

You proclaim my name and my teachings as it suits you and the occasion. Here is also a good example of my search for answers.
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/religious-pluralism.htm
Larry King had proposed my question before I had set it here.
The question I meant to ask about ref 3. above was,
Do we have to,
1.Assume that our God is different and better than anyone elses?
2.Believe in duality, to accept other religions?
3.Accept that there is one God and that all religions are worshipping the same God in different ways?
I am still going to tread carefully.
Tony Blair has accepted the fact that he was wrong about wmd.
So does that make him evil?
I don't want to bring politics into this subject really, so I will invent a case.
A man was caught burying a dismembered body.
He had committed this crime.
Was it an inheritantly evil act?

[McB]

Rex, For me as a Christian, the Bible makes some very clear claims.
1. There is one God.
2. There is only ONE mediator between man and God (Jesus)
3. There is a "right Way" that leads to eternal life, and a "wrong way" that leads to eternal destruction.

Now these are very clear teachings, so if they are wrong, then Jesus and his followers knowingly lied. So why would I believe any of it. This is also true of Islam, If they are wrong then they have been lied to. For someone to want to believe that all ways could be correct they would have to trust teaching that they know contain lies in there core teachings.

"Tony Blair has accepted the fact that he was wrong about wmd.
So does that make him evil?"

Wrong and evil are not the same. The example you give is not a good one because it could be said that it was faulty data on which he made that choice. But he would say that there were other reasons for the attack, and the WMD only hastened the attack.

As for the main topic in this thread.
The Bible describes the "Devil" not as the personification of evil, But rather a being that choose evil and desire to entice others to follow.

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by McB:
Rex, For me as a Christian, the Bible makes some very clear claims.
1. There is one God.
2. There is only ONE mediator between man and God (Jesus)
3. There is a "right Way" that leads to eternal life, and a "wrong way" that leads to eternal destruction.

Now these are very clear teachings, so if they are wrong, then Jesus and his followers knowingly lied. Nah, they didn't lie - it was moldy bread at the last supper! ;)

More generally, one may delude oneself in many ways, even about "right" and "wrong".

[Osborne Russel]

Originally posted by McB:
Rex, For me as a Christian, the Bible makes some very clear claims.
1. There is one God.
2. There is only ONE mediator between man and God (Jesus)
3. There is a "right Way" that leads to eternal life, and a "wrong way" that leads to eternal destruction. .So:

1. The Bible, which was assembled if not written by man, contains the only recorded communication to man by God.

2. The billions who lived before Jesus, and those who lived in ignorance of the whole deal because they lived before european colonization, went to eternal life no matter how bad they were, or went to eternal destruction no matter how good they were, because the only thing that makes a difference is Jesus, whose existence began at a fixed point in time?


Now these are very clear teachings, so if they are wrong, then Jesus and his followers knowingly lied. So why would I believe any of it. This is also true of Islam, If they are wrong then they have been lied to. For someone to want to believe that all ways could be correct they would have to trust teaching that they know contain lies in there core teachings.1. Why couldn't they simply have been mistaken?
2. Why is difficult to believe that someone could be partially right, and partially wrong? Has that never been true of yourself? If that is true of others, why can't you acknowledge that their religion is partly correct? Are you saying all human culture that doesn't come from belief in Jesus is wrong?

What do you make of Thomas Jefferson, how took scissors to the Bible?

You can talk about Jesus for a long time but someday you will have to find the part where He gave to some men the exclusive right to say what is God's word and what isn't. Then we will fight the wars of the Reformation all over again.

[George.]

Good news! Successful cruise. We did not sink, so now we have empirical evidence that the devil does not exist! :D

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid152/pf6951adcb8427cb32e1fa2afa6e811a3/f5a3569b.jpg

And here is our midnight offering to Iemanja, goddess of the sea. A Brazilian New Year's tradition. And still we did not sink, so if God exists he does not mind pagan rituals...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid152/pc27078a99902ad15caea833ddb085a0d/f5a3571a.jpg

Back to "evil." In my opinion there is no such thing. Bad things are done by man, but in a fundamental way they are like the tsunami - acts of nature (human nature) which cause harm and grief. One man's "justice" is another man's "evil." For example, ask most Muslims who is evil in the world today.

For centuries slavery was the norm in most of the "civilized" world. Jesus did not bother to condemn it, and much of the bible seems to approve of it. Now we consider it evil. So were all those who practiced it evil? Was Thomas Jefferson an evil man?

PS: Jim, a classic example of an out-of-context quote. Reading it by itself, one would never guess it was a sarcastic response to a ridiculous politicized accusation of a supposed racist conspiracy among cartoonists. Would you care to cite the thread it was on, and the posts it was responding to? Or would that not suit your purposes? tongue.gif

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Dam George that is a beautiful boat ;)

[Rex Fearnehough]

Meer, come on it is a sensible debate & as a Buhddist bear in mind, "
-----of karma and a much more relaxed attitude to other religions I have no intention of playing devil's advocate.
Welcome back George, I'm a little worried about the dogs of war peering down on you.
McB,

3. There is a "right Way" that leads to eternal life, and a "wrong way" that leads to eternal destruction This smacks of vengeance and I do not think that this was written in the Bible.
I have a copy of "Josefus," before me and in his treatise on Hades to the Greeks,there are angels handling retribution on a time for crime basis.
The Blair example wasn't good because in my attempt at correctness, I ommitted the fact that he knew that there was no imminent threat.
But, let us attempt to keep political wrangling out of it.
The idea of there being no evil I find interesting.

[ 01-03-2005, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Rex Fearnehough ]

[McB]

Don't worry about Meer, he confuses Buddha with Bubba. Clinton the incarnate Buddha.

"This smacks of vengeance and I do not think that this was written in the Bible."

Matthew 7:13
Matthew 25:31-46
John 3:16
John 3:36

There are amny more in Paul,s writings but I just put a few directly from Jesus.

God is not politicaly correct, He is just plain correct.

[Erie Deerie]

As Sister Pain and Suffering once told me,

STOP THAT OR YOU ARE GOING TO BURN IN HELL!!

[westinghouse]

We did not sink, so now we have empirical evidence that the devil does not existAND we have empirical evidence that the devil DOES exist, caulked and payed properly between the garboard and the keel, right where we like it.

Eli

[George Roberts]

I believe that was inswered in the movie the "Usual Suspects." I will not get the quote correct but ...

The devil's greatest trick was making us believe he does not exist.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Yup George it was " The Usual Suspects." Cool flick

Who is Keyser Sose ? ;)

[westinghouse]

Verbal Kint (sp)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

westinghouse yer good :D
Did you do that without google ?

[ 01-03-2005, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[westinghouse]

Ayup. That's a lucky hit though, it's a movie I think about alot.

[ 01-04-2005, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: westinghouse ]

[Rex Fearnehough]

Now unfortunately we come to the dating of the New Testament. I deliberately quoted Josefus because he was around at the time of Jesus and despite his favoured life does give some credence to the political happenings.
We have evidence of the birth and life of Jesus and a question that I do ask myself is.
Would Jesus be happy with our modern interpretations of his life and deeds?
Please do not interpret the next phrase as a comparison of the man.
Che Guevera 1928-1967 in the 37yrs since his death
has achieved an almost mythical persona.
So the words of Jesus/God depending on who and when written could also have undergone a similar process.
I unfortunately believe that mankind will willinlgy use any method to further themselves and that is also written in the Bible.
I do not want anyone to convert me to anything but, I would like to convert myself. That is why I am asking these questions.
I like so many people would like to believe.

[George.]

Why?

[Ed Harrow]

"There is some soul of goodness in things evil, would man observingly distill it out."

[Rex Fearnehough]

What a good note to let this thread die on.
George asks me why I wish to believe.
As a temporary member of the human race, I find that I have to constantly question where I fit in.
A couple of my questions are;
"Am I a good member or an indifferent one."
"How can I improve my input to humanity."
And the reason for my joining this debate.
"Could I be better if I joined an organisation or is being a Rexist good enough."
I suspect I am going to remain single.
But, am I really so alone?
Bring on my next mistake!

[Jayne Scott-Andrews]

... " For I know the plans I have for you " Declares the Lord... " Plans to prosper you and not to harm you - plans to give you hope... AND A FUTURE " ;)

Jeremiah 29:11



:cool: :cool:

[ 01-13-2005, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Jayne Scott-Andrews ]