Laser level query

[bloggs68]

Hi all,

i am about to start a 43 footer and have the molds cut out with centreline and DWL on each one. Having spent a few days on the last boat with levels, dumpy etc,and thinking there must be a better way, another boatbuilder told me he has started usine a laser level that projects a cross hair.

It would seem to me too easy if I could have the cross hair projected to line up with centreline and a waterline. Has anyone else used a laser and if so, what brand can you recommend. I am working indoors but it is bright at times so I guess it would have to be a pretty bright one.

TIA,

Andrew

[Ron Carter]

The our local tool rental place has laser levels available. Set up on a transit all ready to go. Probably would only need it for a day. Lots cheaper than owning one unless you will need it often.

[kc8pql]

I bought an inexpensive ($50.US) crosshair laser to set up half-round station moulds for glueing together a 50' birdsmouth spar. It wasn't good enough to do a presice job. At close range the lines were thin and bright but at 50' they were dim and more than 3/8" wide. A laser would work well for this, but renting an expensive professional model would be a good idea. The cheap ones just don't have enough power for long runs.

[Bob Cleek]

Yes, indeed. It's a seductive concept, but the fine print on the laser levels I've seen say "plus or minus 1/4" at 50'." That's not close enough for what you want to do. I expect there are more precise ones, but at very expensive prices. A "hose level" will do the job precisely for "beer money."

[Jim Mathieson]

I have to agree ,that the cheap $70. Orange Box Laser level I bought and used was a complete waste of time.

I set it up in the middle of a 33 ft.base for the frames and found it to have an inaccurate bubble level to say the least.Even after adjusting it....garbage
I went with something I'm comfortable with ,a carpenters transit and got the resuts I needed.

[Bob Smalser]

They're out there. Try renting a good one. Their principle advantage is so one man can do the job instead of two.

My Berger is good for plus or minus 3/32nd or so over 100 feet. But it was an 800-dollar machine a decade ago.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3297171/59962268.jpg

Edited to add that the target finds the center of the beam, indicating how far you are off with both beeps and LED lines in the display box.

[ 12-11-2005, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Gary E]

Has the tight wire lost all usefulness?
A tight wire has been used as a reference line to align machinery a lot longer to a lot less than the thickness of one of your hair's. Or are you building a boat to tighter tolerance's?

[George Roberts]

While the beam of a laser at 50' might be 3/8" wide, the center is easy to detect (close enough).

The tolerance on laser levels is with respect to true level.

[Myslow]

I used a $39 stanley laser level hung from a rafter in the shop and had it projecting the center line on the frames for my 24 ft boat as I secured the frames to the strongback. Worked like a charm. And yes, the beam does fan out a little but as said in an earlier post, you can still tell the middle of the beam. I actually tacked finish nails in the exact center of each frame and those nails lite up very well.

[pipefitter]

Mr Cleek is right on with the hose level. It will most closely resemble the level of what the boat will be sitting in. You can also add food coloring to the water so that you can see it better. Is what I used to set up the jig for my boat on uneven terrain.Used those for dropped ceilings and soffits in metal framing in commercial construction for years.Will also come in handy for rechecking level after things like frames are in the way too.

[bloggs68]

Okay guys,

I was looking at one of the more accurate levels with about 1/4" accuracy over 100' which is fine as I couldn't build a boat to closer tolerances than that anyway. My problem is I am building alone and am looking at ways to make things easier.

On the topic of water levels, has anyone used the WL25 Pro from Zircon
(http://www.zircon.com/SellPages/LevelAndLaser/WL25pro/WL25pro.html)?

Seems like a good idea for single handed operations, cheaper than a laser and more accurate. If anyone has used one, I would appreciate some feedback.

regards,

AD

[Dave Fleming]

Last yard I worked at built a series of 7 Tuna Seiners 250 feet long.
Before beginning some slipstick jockey decided that the yard should bring in an outfit to set up precise monuments aka dead nuts on concrete pads for setting up transits.

Sure did look spiffy all layed out with little brass targets denoting dead center on each one.

When construction jig building got underweigh it was found that the transits couldn't see around steel I-beams and whenever a big piece of lifting machinery went by the vibration would rattle the transit requiring re-adjustment.

Solution....some reels of flexible transparent water supply grade hose, couple of bottles of green food colouring, some hose clamps, a few barbed brass spigots.

Just like the old days. Using a finely sharpened yellow pencil a line could be made almost spot on.
Yard trucks rolling over the hose, no problem.
Finished with one for the day just roll it up and hang it on a bracket in the tool shed ready to go the next time.

For setting up Moulds for wooden boat building, a reel of piano wire, some turnbuckles, a plumb bob, torpedo level, 6 foot masons level, #3 Dixon Ticonderoga pencils, small jar of flat white paint and let 'er rip.

[ 12-11-2005, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by bloggs68:

On the topic of water levels, has anyone used the WL25 Pro from Zircon
I've had an older version Zircon for maybe 20 years. Works great for one man leveling.

[StevenBauer]

We used this one:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/p6268c55abc65d2e382534c6c85867592/f651abf9.jpg

We also marked the waterline on the shop wall so we could transfer the waterline to the hull after planking.

Steven

[pipefitter]

With the waterline hose level,I used to frame smoke walls of metal studs,suspended from threaded rod and c-channel. When checked with a transit,the most I was off was 1/8th" in 75ft.A transit can be off by that much so which was at fault, if that can be indeed a fault? Surely a boat of any material or construction is going to settle or move that much anyways and find it's own actual level. The simplicity of the hose and the consistency is well worth it. A most confident way to find true level.

[Bob Perkins]

I have and used the same one as Steve Bauer (PLS2). It is self leveling - very accurate and the line is thin and bright.

These features are the difference between $50 and more expensive lasers.

I'd say the self leveling is the most important feature.

Much simpler than water level, you can reference MANY points simultaniously.

They just cost more than hose and water..

Good Luck,
Bob

[Bill Perkins]

Ad, working alone , I found a tightly stretched level wire a big help when setting up the frames .I was right on top of the lofting , so there was a centerline and station lines on the floor . The 1/8th in. wire was set with one side of it directly over the centerline . The wire was just high enough to later clear the installed keelson .

On your big boat that may require a small step ladder to reach , but I still think it's worth it .A frame is swung up to vertical over its station .A short stick has been clamped to it that extends up past the wire . A single clamp allows you to pivot the stick until it contacts the wire . With the frame plumb fore and aft , you attach to the cable with a strong spring clamp .You can't do that with a beam of light .

Then the single hander is free to level the frame athwartship ,align it perfectly with the centerline on the floor , and lastly ,check the height from wire to top of cross spall ( which are all set to the same plane in the lofting ) .You shim up as required , release the spring clamp so the wire can find level again , and reattach . The measurement you're looking for is that of the frame set at the high point of the floor .

[ 12-11-2005, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

[wyndham]

There is nothing a seasy and as accurate as a thirty dollar water lvel. Never fails, nothing to calibrate or adjust, doesn't need batteries or a manual or a tripod. Fill it up and you're done.Always accurate. A drop or tweo of fabric softener in the water will reduce the miniscus and produce an almost dead flat surface, a few drops of red food coloring makes it visible.

[ion barnes]

A string or wire is really only good for sighting a straight line between two points. To use it as a datum for heights is chancy as the weight of the wire (or string) will cause it to sag despite the taughtness. So how good are your attachment points and whats the breaking point of the wire? Water level is ok but the crosshairs of the laser just beats everything hands down.

[Tom Kenny]

During this past summer’s yard period, I replaced three full courses of boards from the chine up, stem to stern and took out the sag in the middle of the boat (55’ cruiser). When it was time for paint, I bought a $7.99 laser level from Harbor Freight. I set up the laser and the little transit that came with it on top of the sawhorses and lined it up with the original boot stripe scribe marks on the stem and transom. I marked the new boot stripe with a pencil every 2’ and then applied the tape. The boot stripe looks great and is spot on perfect. I think the cheap laser levels are a great idea for single-handed operations.

Independence - http://www.ftkltd.com

[Chan]

Water level!
Seen too many excavators using expensive laser's with plus or minus 1/4" tolerance.
Gravity and water levels don't lie unless you're under the influence of aliens as I am. The method I use is gravitational parametrically adjusted and influenced sonicically enabled string lines, preferably cotton aas nylon sags.

[CK 17]

I bought a $40 black and decker lazer level. It worked fine over the length of a 30 foot boat shed. I did have trouble in bright sunshine. Taping white paper to the molds and working at dusk helped with this.

It took me a few days working myself to set up the molds, thats why I bought ves rent. I tried hard to be very accurate, but in the end worked to a 1/4 inch tolerance over the length of a 23 foot boat.

That is way good enough for me.

Joe Schena

[ 12-26-2005, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: joe schena ]

[ssor]

I worrked for a man years ago that was looking for perfectly plumb and level. His method was a ten pound bob hanging on piano wire and damped in a pan of oil. The oil was level and the wire was plumb.

[Chan]

I ran a construction business several years ago called PSL Framing Contractors, you can interpret the PSL any way you want, however the motto was on the business card and the company credo,"When Close Enough Just Isn't"
That's how I feel about lasers unless you are ready to lay out a huge amount of cash for a really good one.
A good builders level is far more accurate,less expensive, and more easily adjusted

[Chan]

I also am a firm believer in the plumb bob, the oil is only necessary when it's windy

[Gerald]

On the topic of water levels, has anyone used the WL25 Pro from Zircon
(http://www.zircon.com/SellPages/LevelAndLaser/WL25pro/WL25pro.html)?

Bought a similar unit from Sears about ten years ago. I used it to level floors in a 100 year old adobe house. Worked just fine for jacking the floors back into place. I could hear the buzz when it hit level from under the crawl space.
Gerald

[chergui]

Someone lent me one just the other day. I find it useful. It's just a cheap mastercraft one but it's fine for the small pram I'm building. I found it useful for doing things like drawing a line accurately on a piece of wood overylying a drawn line on the lofting, like the construction base, the centerline for a molds cross spall, etc. I plan on using it when setting up also. Beyond 6' the beam widens a bit. But it was good enough for my purposes.

[Gary E]

Maybe you could adapt one of those pointer dealeees that speakers use to point out somthing projected up on a screen...ya see, from my point of view the little red spot aint hardly visible so it must be one that dont get fat as it goes further out...

whutever did all those guys that made stuffs do before lazzzzers.... :confused:

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Chan:

A good builders level is far more accurate,less expensive, and more easily adjusted...I also am a firm believer in the plumb bob, the oil is only necessary when it's windyMe too. But laser levels have their uses.

Bet you've experienced a frustration or two leveling a thousand square feet alone, with your dumpy level's elevation rod sticking out of a traffic cone and you wasting the day walking back and forth. ;)

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3297171/59962268.jpg

Shooting a simple waterline would be short, accurate work.

[ 12-29-2005, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]