PDA

View Full Version : Gronicle Bonding and GPS error (repost)



Greg H
11-24-2002, 06:23 PM
Author
Topic: Bonding gronicles
DougWilde
.
Member # 1367

posted 04-01-2001 12:25 PM

Its Spring fitting out time and I'm trying to correct a problem that developed over last season.

In order to correct a blistering problem last year I decided to bond my gronicles. I must say it was quite successful
and I had no difficulties whatsoever.

However, I noticed problems with my electronics, specifically my GPS. My Garmin consistently reported my
location 300 meters to port of my true position.

I asked Sparks about this at the yard and he asked whether I had the gronicles wired in series or parallel. I said
series and he said that was the problem.

Will wiring them in parallel solve my problem? I'd like to know of anyone eles's experience with this before I crawl
down into the bilges of Williwaw and pull new wire.

TIA

Doug Wilde

From: Bowie, Maryland

Bob Cleek
.
Member # 1211

posted 04-01-2001 02:31 PM

Lining the inside of your sou'wester with tinfoil will solve the problem completely. The foil reflects the radio waves
much like a radar reflector. By tilting your head just so while wearing the lined sou'wester, you can micro-tune
your GPS to cure that reading error.

From: San Francisco Bay

Bryan Mehus
.
Member # 2205

posted 04-01-2001 08:14 PM

Doug,
How many gronicles do you have?
If there are an even number, say 4, then wire one on the port side in series with one on starboard side, then parallel
them with the other two. Should work. Otherwise follow Bob's advice, but be advised that in heavy weather you may
have problems.

From: Westbank,BC,Canada

Jamie Hascall
.
Member # 335

posted 04-02-2001 02:01 AM

Seeing that the GPS is working on a time calculation to give the location, I would have to assume that you're getting
a gronicular resonance effect which is throwing off the readout. (Of course you may have stumbled onto the
source of possible time travel) Wiring them in parallel may help, but may set up an alternate wave that would give
you an even less predictable positioning. Have you considered giving the gronicle cluster a shielding of lead to try
to alleviate the deviation?

Let us know what you find.
Jamie

From: Seattle, WA USA

Scott Rosen
.
Member # 1201

posted 04-02-2001 09:37 AM

Did you remember to connect your bonding wires to your battery terminals?

From: West Hartford, Connecticut, USA

ken mcclure
.
Member # 2957

posted 04-02-2001 04:36 PM

Doug,

Have you considered the option that you may, in fact, actually BE 300 meters to port of your true position? There
are some relevant writings on the effects of gronicles on operator perception, some of which have to do with spatial
displacement issues.

I also noted another interesting side effect when I dismounted a complete set of gronicles from an uncle's boat
which was being decommissioned and broken up. As they had been maintained meticulously, including an annual
cleaning of the little oil sumps, I hated to see them just thrown away. I decided to install them in my basement
study/office as decorative items, but decided to wire them and make them functional as a conversation item. A
couple weeks after the installation, a neighbor stopped in to chat and observed that my house seemed bigger on the
inside than it looked to be from the outside. We took out the measuring tapes and found that within plus or minus
1/4 inch (it was a fast measurement) the inside horizontal dimensions exceeded the exterior by about 2 percent
while vertical dimensions were the same.

If you decide to dismount yours, don't throw them away. I figured that I picked up about 75 square feet of space
that really helps with storage.

By the way, which series do you have? I'd be willing to buy them if you're not going to keep them. My shop is
getting small, and I don't really have enough land space around it to expand.

From: Pittsburgh, PA USA

John B
.
Member # 2113

posted 04-02-2001 04:55 PM

Once when I was sailing on the Barquenbrig "Peter Pillock" there was some sort of problem with the gronicles. As
soon as the gooses bridle was adjusted the problem was resolved and we just carried on as normal.

From: Auckland, New Zealand

Ross Faneuf
.
Member # 904

posted 04-02-2001 08:43 PM

Do your gronicles have the old-fashioned wrought-iron displacement lubricators? If so, it's likely that bonding
them is subjecting the iron to some stray current. Due to the peculiarities of the way Bodger Industries used to
make these things, the circular grain structure and high impurities inclusions actually makes them into miniature
electromagnets if a stray current runs through them. You should look for the replacement lubricators laid up with
carbon fiber and mucilage. They don't take quite as clean a thread, but what the heck, there isn't that much load on
the mounts.

From: Lincolnville Center, ME, USA

DougWilde
.
Member # 1367

posted 04-02-2001 11:08 PM

In answer to the questions...

I have just the pair, port and starboard.

No, they are not connected to the battery terminals. Once burned...twice shy.

Unfortunately I was unable to afford the Acme casehardened gronicles, which would have alleviated all these
problems. Mine are nondescript, having obtained them in Marseilles. But they are old, of quality manufacture, but
unknown alloy. Not that junk coming out of the former Soviet bloc countries or Taiwan.

I think I'll forego the tin foil in the sou'wester. It gets pretty hot here in Arkansas and besides, Bubba in his
bassboat wouldn't know what to do with it. (Or maybe he would..Soooyyyyyeeee, squeel like a pig).

Ross' suggestion with the displacement lubricator might be the problem. Mine are without (hey, they came from
France). Is this an easy aftermarket modification or are there any tricks?

Doug

From: Bowie, Maryland

Scott Rosen
.
Member # 1201

posted 04-03-2001 09:23 AM

Before you give up on the batteries, you should try reversing the polarity.

From: West Hartford, Connecticut, USA

ken mcclure
.
Member # 2957

posted 04-03-2001 09:25 AM

Uncle says that there are aftermarket bolt-on lubricators, as that's how he got his. Must be the same manufacturer
because he ordered his upgrades from France.

Unfortunately, he can't remember who he ordered them through but if he can come up with the name he'll forward
it.

He did say, however, that it is imperative that the oil sumps (he called them follicles) be kept full with #10 machine
oil and that they be cleaned annually. He did it usually right when daylight savings time started in the spring, and
used to remember the task with a little mnemonic.....

Spring ahead, clean the gronicle follicles.
Fall back.

From: Pittsburgh, PA USA

Ross Faneuf
.
Member # 904

posted 04-03-2001 10:20 AM

That's a great way to remember! For those of us who need bifocals, and occasionally use some means of increasing
the light available (those bilges are dark), we have to dig out the gronicle follicle speculum spectacles.

From: Lincolnville Center, ME, USA

nedL
.
Member # 1976

posted 04-03-2001 12:29 PM

If you find the supplier of those french made lubricators would you pass it on to me. It seems that while helping
me do some engine work last summer a well intentioned friend accidentally stepped on my #2 port side gronicle
and broke the lubricator off! Ever since then I've been real cautious about going out for the day if we are going
need to spend too much time on a port tack.
By the way- do the french ones have left hand threads on the needle valves?

From: Woodstock,CT.06281

Norm Harris
.
Member # 2723

posted 04-03-2001 12:57 PM

Y'know, I recently bought my first GPS and find that when I take a reading I am aobut 300 yards to STARBOARD
of where I used to think I was.

Do any of you think that if I add a pair of gronicles connected the same way Doug's are it will correct my
problem? It seems that that might work even if I don't add the lubricators.

Doug, if you think that this is a viable solution, maybe you could sketch a schematic of your installation.

From: San Jose, CA, USA

ken mcclure
.
Member # 2957

posted 04-03-2001 01:02 PM

Ah. Good thing they're close by in the office here. The port side have right-hand threads, the starbord have
left-hand.

Uncle says that he still can't remember the name of the company he ordered from, but as this was around 30 years
ago he thinks they're out of business. Nobody uses gronicles anymore.

Try searching the web for any writing on the topic. I haven't had any luck so far, but I haven't done an exhaustive
search. I do know that Uncle read something in an agricultural magazine 15 or 20 years ago about their
application in livestock transportation and some of the lubricating problems that came up. He recommends that
you search for "gronicle follicle articles" or check the local library.

From: Pittsburgh, PA USA

Andrew
.
Member # 64

posted 04-03-2001 01:05 PM

It seems that I remember something about the civilian GPS applications adding a 200 meter error factor randomly
to each sector, a sector being a ~200 meter square. Is that still in effect? Though if your deviation is always to port.
this in not the cause of your problem.

[This message has been edited by Andrew (edited 04-03-2001).]

From: The banks of Sleepy Creek

ken mcclure
.
Member # 2957

posted 04-03-2001 02:16 PM

Norm, here is an old diagram Uncle had. Not sure if it's the same as your model but it's a starting point.



Note that entry number 30 is the "oil follicle charging light" which is supposed to come on when the follicle, or
sump as I call it, needs refilled. Uncle says that his light never worked, so he had to go and check them once per
week by eye.

Note also that item # 41 shows "Earth connections via terminals and fixing bolts" indicating that you should
ground not only to the battery, but to the fixing bolts. Be sure that you hook to both port and starboard fixing
bolts, as a natural imbalance can occur.

You may have a polarity problem if you have shifted to apparent starboard.

[This message has been edited by kwmcclure (edited 04-03-2001).]

From: Pittsburgh, PA USA

bob goeckel
.
Member # 2428

posted 04-03-2001 04:21 PM

as i've said before in another posting about gronicles: go see a gronicoligist (M.D.G.)(the exam isn't as bad as some
say) he'll give you a prescription for some gonocream(www.stop that itch.com) and you can go on your way
without that embarassing private need to scratch.........................................so rry i had to take care of a personal
problem...them.

From: flint,mich usa

Bryan Mehus
.
Member # 2205

posted 04-03-2001 04:44 PM

How come Gronicoligists(sp)always have such big knuckles?

From: Westbank,BC,Canada

John B
.
Member # 2113

posted 04-03-2001 08:52 PM

I did a search on Gronicles and came up with this in some sort of yachting forum.
Quote

>I was looking at my husbands gronicles last night.Is there any way to
>refurbish them ......you know make them look and act like new?
>
>Stormy
>6800 feet
>and cold

Getting them to look like new takes only some polishing and perhaps
replating, but getting them to act like new may take an overhaul...
New rings should help the compression, if all else fails....
L

From: Auckland, New Zealand

HAT
.
Member # 2472

posted 04-04-2001 09:46 AM

Doug-Back in my college days,we had an old professor who had done some consulting with the US Navy during
WW 11 on aiming and guidance problems in the old Mk 3 torpedo(the steam powered model with the
little,jewel-like triple expansion steam engine).Prof determined that the gronicles used in the torpedo were
traditionally made by investment casting, but to expedite production,they switched to sintered powdered metal.
Turns outthat in the sintered product, the resulting interstitial intersteces allowed an electron resonance
phenomenon to occur which in turn influenced the torpedo's guidance system. The Navy switched back to
investment cast gronicles,solving the problem. I believe, however,that sintered gronicles continued in commercial
production for some time after the war.You may have some of these in your boat,which are affecting the GPS.
P.S. I saw one of the Mk 3 engines in a restored naptha launch in an antique boat show up on Lake George NY last
summer.Wish I had bought one after the war when they were advertised in the back of Popular Mechanics for
$12.95.

From: Middleton,MA ,USA

ishmael
.
Member # 1866

posted 04-04-2001 10:21 AM

There really are a bunch of waggish cards posting here. LOL, over and over again.

From: Bangor, ME

DougWilde
.
Member # 1367

posted 04-04-2001 11:48 PM

As far as polarity goes, remember the old mnemonic: Port - Positivity. If you don't you'll have a discoloration
problem. That happend to me two years ago.

The starboard deviation is quite rare. Port is the norm (if such exists with gronicles). Sparks even referred to the
problem with my GPS as GPS: gronicle port slue. Live and learn.

As far as visiting a gronicologist, that only is necessary if your gronicles develop blisters, the dreaded gronorrhea. I
had that last year. Lets not go there.

I really appreciate kwmcclure posting the wiring diagram. I could not find mine. But to make up for that I post a
photograph of my installation.



Pretty cool, don't you think.

Anyways, I've decided to go with the parallel wiring. Thanks ever so much for the knowledge so freely shared.

Doug

From: Bowie, Maryland

bob goeckel
.
Member # 2428

posted 04-05-2001 12:21 AM

doug! gronorrhea! i hope you're wearing them rubber boots!

From: flint,mich usa

kpenokie
.
Member # 1640

posted 04-05-2001 12:44 PM

John

Soooooo if she polishes his gronicles more frequently they won't "look and act like new?"

I don't know about these rings. Seems to me once a ring is involved the gronicles get polished less. LOL

From: Escanaba, Michigan, Delta

John B
.
Member # 2113

posted 04-05-2001 04:54 PM

Hey, nothing to do with me...... it's the only thing that google could come up with.
I'm asking around though.
I'm just so pleased I can make it to my age and come across a word which #1 sounds like something out of
C.S.Lewis and #2 I have never heard of before.

From: Auckland, New Zealand

landlocked sailor
.
Member # 586

posted 04-05-2001 06:55 PM

Doug, can you fit down into the bilges of Williwaw or is this job for a professional? Rick

From: Muncy, PA, USA

Ross Miller
.
Member # 1226

posted 04-05-2001 10:00 PM

But John B, surely you've read "The Gronicle Chronicles."

From: quasi-historic tourist town

John B
.
Member # 2113

posted 04-05-2001 10:06 PM

No , I missed it...... went straight to "The Pillocks Papers" A story about a nerd who took small pills whilst standing
upon a moderately raised earthen mound.

From: Auckland, New Zealand

Tom Beecroft
.
Member # 2489

posted 04-06-2001 07:23 PM

Doug

I've had a similar gronicle problem, but not near as consistent. My first mate called it a wandering eye, GPS put me
all over the place. The ring helped for a while, then it was back to wandering.

Finally had a professional gronicologist just clip the blue wires that lead from the gronicles to the bowsprit. And
that was the end of that!

From: Sydney, NSW Australia

bob goeckel
.
Member # 2428

posted 04-06-2001 11:57 PM

i bet the forumites over at misc. could use a gronocologist bad. should we send ours?

From: flint,mich usa

thechemist
.
Member # 1468

posted 04-07-2001 11:49 AM

Dunno why......they already sent you all of theirs.

Junkman
.
Member # 2896

posted 04-07-2001 01:32 PM

A really long time ago when I was a shipwright on a very large barge project, the question of Gronicle installation
came up. I said to the boss, "Noah, where do you want them gronicles installed"? Noah replied, "Ask the Unicorns".
Well we all know they never showed up for launch, so we had to sail with them loose in the bilge.
Worked for us -

From: Grand Bay, New Brunswick, Canada

Ross Miller
.
Member # 1226

posted 04-07-2001 02:03 PM

It’s great how we add to each other’s knowledge here. I will make it a point to read “The Pillocks Papers,” since it
seems, from your description, to bear an uncanny resemblance to my life story.

From: quasi-historic tourist town

Mike Field
.
Member # 2239

posted 04-07-2001 11:48 PM

Gentlemen, I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest.

What I find particularly galling, though, as a student of words (and a former member of the Spelling Police -- yes,
I'm allowed to say that, now that I've retired) is that everyone so far has misspelt the key word.

Gentlemen, please be informed that the correct spelling is "gronnekylle," and this is indeed is the way it was spelt in
the stone tablets left to us by Messrs Noah & Associates, Boatbuilders.

I and I am sure my former colleagues would be most gratified if you could use this correct spelling in any future
postings.

From: Western Port, Victoria, Australia

Mike Field
.
Member # 2239

posted 04-07-2001 11:53 PM

While on the subject of Noah & Associates, I imagine many readers will be aware that Noah was in fact the only
boatbuilder in the history of the world to complete his vessel on time.

The reason for this almost-miraculous event was surprisingly simple, really -- he knew that he would be drowned if
he didn't.

From: Western Port, Victoria, Australia

John B
.
Member # 2113

posted 04-08-2001 04:51 PM

The job always expands to fill the time available.

From: Auckland, New Zealand

Norm Harris
.
Member # 2723

posted 04-10-2001 04:05 PM

Tom,
Several years ago I faced a similar problem and worked out the same solution. However, I discovered that there is a
sub-species of gronicle-polishers who are attracted to gronicles that carry no charge. Needless to say that this
unintended consequence did not align my gronicles to the proper GPS location. As I mentioned earlier, I still tend
to drift to starb'rd.

Mike,
I think that you are wrong about the spelling. It looks as though the spelling you pefer is actually the result of an
mis-translation of the original Aramian into Greek. This translation was then retranslated into English. I believe that
the correct tranlation path brings is to "gronnicle"

From: San Jose, CA, USA

bob goeckel
.
Member # 2428

posted 04-10-2001 07:05 PM

wow, i just looked at myself in the mirror sans clothes, i was shocked(no not because of my 53yr old condition) but
because my gronicles have just about disappeared. The savings on that cream will help pay the gronicologist
bill(insurance won't cover gronicles). SWMBO has gotten over ROTFLHAO and actually seems a bit pleased. she is
still chuckling a bit at something but i think i can stop that.

From: flint,mich usa

Mike Field
.
Member # 2239

posted 04-11-2001 01:23 AM

Norm, it could be you're right about the spelling, because I find that the gronnekylle etymology is actually about
9th Century English.

Under the circumstances, though, I think I must stick with my stipulation that it should be used in preference to the
common, non-English, "gronicle" spelling.

Or is it your contention that gronnekylle, being a pommy word, should really be americanised to gronicle in view
of the fact that this is in fact an American website??

From: Western Port, Victoria, Australia

Phil Wardle
.
Member # 3182

posted 04-11-2001 01:44 AM

Due to an over indulgence in farnarcling my GPS reports my position as being 300 metres BELOW where I think I
am....or is that I think therefore I am or not?

From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

Mike Field
.
Member # 2239

posted 04-11-2001 05:01 AM

Simple, Phil. It's because we're Aussies. ALL GPS's report us as being down-under.

From: Western Port, Victoria, Australia

Phil Wardle
.
Member # 3182

posted 04-11-2001 05:54 AM

I'll pay that one!

From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

Ed Harrow
.
Member # 1235

posted 04-11-2001 09:44 PM

Back before, and during WWII my father worked for the US Coast and Geodetic Survey (AKA Cost and Idiotic if I
remember correctly). Before the war started he worked on what he called the Gravity Party, as near as I can figure
they were attempting to locate the earth's center of gravity. Anyway, I know that they made extensive use of
gronicles for this work. Interestingly, these were produced by the lost wax method, and made of aluminium, the
early units, brass the later models, and stainless the last. All, however, featured drip lubricators as used on old
Fairbanks Morse make and break engines. These lubricators were fitted as they were readily available, at the time,
just about anywhere in NA. Also, they never used 10 Wt machine oil, they had a proprietery mystery oil in the drip
lubricators.

The only difficulty that they ever had with their gronicles involved, the same as Doug, error in positions. Obviously,
if attempting to locate the earth's center of gravity by triangulation, one would have to know one's location on the
earth quite precisely. The most interesting of these occurred near Duluth. Their typical technique was to have three
individuals take celestial sights, using open containers of Hg in place of the horizon.

The gronicles they were using at that time, which were manufactured by Telechron Clock, required 110 volt, 60 Hz
AC power to operate properly, but, being a party of males, no one had bothered to read the operating manual.
However the gronicle's label did note the 60 Hz power requirement. They were approx 50 miles from the nearest
source of AC power so Dad, having an electrical bent and an EE degree, decided that, by connecting the gronicles
to their trucks' ignition systems they could provide power of suitable frequency, as long as the engines were kept at
precisely 1750 rpms. Of course the trucks did not have tachs, so this was going to be a trick.

They worked out the gear ratios and discoverd that if the trucks were in second gear, and driven at 25 mph, the
engine's speed would be 1750 rpm. Naturally, taking celestial sights off reflecting pools of Hg while driving 25
mph was not a recipe for success. So, the back of the trucks were jacked up so the wheels were off the ground, the
engines were started, the trucks were shifted to third gear, contraptions were rigged up to keep the throttles such
that the speedos read 25 mph, so they were set to take their sights.

The three took their sights and, when they worked them out, each found themselves in another's location, displaced
clockwise. They repeated the excercise with the same result, each was displaced clockwise to the next party's
location. They spend several days in conference via SW radio to headquarters trying to come up with an
explanation. Finally someone realized that they had the trucks in the wrong gear and the power was being supplied
at 40 Hz not 60.

From: Woodville, MA USA

ken mcclure
11-25-2002, 05:33 PM
Here's the wiring diagram referenced in the above thread:

http://home.adelphia.net/~kwmcclure/images/gronicle_wire.jpg

TomF
06-29-2005, 09:50 AM
Nobody's going to prune my gronicles, that's for sure. Or bond them.

t.

ken mcclure
07-02-2005, 07:54 AM
Brings a tear, dunnit?

Margo has a copy of the wiring diagram. Maybe she'll post it here for us. I have my copy, but I don't have a picture posting site to put it on.