New Stitch and Glue Website

[boatbuilder.org]

I have started a new website to explain some of the stitch and glue construction methods I use. I developed the site to help homebuilders with their stitch and glue projects. The site is new and the content in it so far is just a start, and I will continually add more to it. Below is a link to the site if you would like to check it out. Thank you.
---Joel---

Visit boatbuilder.org (http://www.boatbuilder.org) for information
and instruction on building stitch and glue boats.

[Mike Vogdes]

Welcome aboard Joel...

Your site looks good and should prove to be a good reference tool for anybody building Stitch and Glue.

I'm gonna try that MAS one of these days. I can't seem to get off of the WEST...

[NormMessinger]

"I'm gonna try that MAS one of these days. I can't seem to get off of the WEST..."

Compare prices. That'll help. ;)

Not trying to hijak your thread, Stitches but, it happens. Good luck with your new site.

On second thought, since I see no discussion area, maybe I will: When I build Sam's Egret some years ago he was using WEST so so did I. Some time later I noticed he was using System Three. Now it is MAS. Chesepeak Light Craft went through the same evolution it seems.

Question: What criteria does a professional outfit like Devlin and CLC use to select the epoxy they use?

[ 01-06-2005, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: NormMessinger ]

[Dale R. Hamilton]

Joel- I'm starting my first S&G project this winter- Ray Sargents 16' sport runabout- so I guess I will have many questions. Your website should be a big help.

Dale

[paul oman]

More info on boatbuilding and sources of supplies are always welcome! Information is the key to almost everything.

Good Luck

Paul Oman
progressive epoxy polymers
www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html (http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html)

[SAWDUST]

Check out Jamestown Distributors. They sell all three of the major brands of epoxy. They actually have a sale on WEST 105B right now.

[boatbuilder.org]

Why MAS: First I want say that I think picking epoxy is like picking a truck. You have the big three with Ford, Chevy, and Dodge and with epoxy you have System Three, WEST, and now MAS. They all work great and the cost is all relatively close. People like what they are comfortable with. In addition you have the "second tier" epoxies (and trucks) like RAKA, Paul Oman's products and many others, and when I say second tier I am not talking about quality but rather name recognition, and these are generally less expensive. For the most part all the brands work great.
At the time I started using MAS, I thought its low vicosity resin was the easiest to use and I used System Three and WEST before that. I have been using it for about 8 years now and I am comfortable with it so I see no need to change. I think the "comfort" factor with a product is the main reason people stick to that product. What ever gets the job done.
---Joel---

[Mike Vogdes]

Yes I guess it is the comfort level. Everytime I get into something, and its ready to glue up, I evaluate how much epoxy and hardner I have on hand and the thought allways crosses my mind about maybe NOW would be a good time to try another epoxy... Nah, some other time.

What does work well for me is all the different fillers available from WEST. I do quite a bit of work on glass boats as well and I find their fillers cover all the bases. This spring I am useing their barrier coat material on the bottom of my trawler.

[paul oman]

I agree about the comfort level. The truth is that boat building - repair etc. isn't very a very demanding task for an epoxy so they all pretty much all will get the job done. Key differences are (but can be worked around) - viscosity, pot life, blushing, price, and flex.

Epoxies take many fillers and additives, from wood flour, fumed silica, copper powder, graphite, cellulose, micro-ballons (check density of these sphere - they come in many grades, poly fibers, even Kevlar (tm) powder sometimes, etc. Most places that sell epoxies also sell these fillers (and often fiberglass cloth as well).

ain't epoxies fun?

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers
www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html (http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html)

[NormMessinger]

Thanks, Joel.

Now another question for anyone: I have it stuck in my head the Kern Hindrickson, System Three, once told me the wood flour we use in our epoxy recipes is the same stuff bakers use to add fibre to bread. I got behind in my baking over Christmas and was forced to eat commercial stuff from the grocery store shelf. It sure tasted and flelt like it was laced with wood flour. Anybody know for sure?

[Stiletto]

I dunno Norm, but I was baking bread a while back and spilt some bran that sure looked like sawdust on the floor. :eek:

[John Blazy]

Originally posted by boatbuilder.org:
. . I thought its low vicosity resin was the easiest to use . . . ---Joel---Low visc is possibly easier to use, but there may be drawbacks to low viscosity resins not easily seen.

For the most part, many here may not ever notice a difference, but when I was a chemist in 100% solids UV cured coatings / resins / adhesives, one general truth came to light: Lower viscosity meant poor performance due mainly to high shrinkage and low tensile strength (cohesion).

Epoxies are radically different, in that epoxies of any viscosity don't shrink near as much as UV cured (free-radical polymerization similar to polyester cure) resins, which make them dream polymers, but the reasoning is this:
Large, long chain molecules create stronger bonds between them in a high molecular weight resin per given volume than resins with small molecules of low molecular weight (more molecules = more spaces between them = multiplicity of bonds = shrinkage at each bond point)

So the bottom line is this: I tend to shy away from low visc resins because they generally won't have as much "guts" to their molecular backbone.

Many low viscosity reactive diluents (monomers - still 100% solids, just reactive) that are added to thick, strong resins (main performance ingredient in epoxies) to make them flow better, shrink so much that they shatter upon polymerization due to their brittleness (if high functionality), or simply crumble due to low tensile strength (low functional monomers).

High-viscosity resins will have higher resin-to-monomer ratio, and therefore stronger adhesive properties, but possibly the best reason for high visc resins is that the epoxy won't soak in and 'starve' the joint as easily as low visc resins will.

The reality, though, is that minor fluctuations between brands/viscosities really arent't going to be noticeable, because a well executed joint with epoxy of any viscosity is pretty much going to perform 500% beyond the overall load requirement of that given joint. Again, the key word here is "well executed joint" .

But if you're anal about adhesives like me (real disease actually), I like to cater my most critical joints to the strongest adhesives, and leave general glass laminating to low-visc resins.

[boatbuilder.org]

QUOTE]Low visc is possibly easier to use, but there may be drawbacks to low viscosity resins not easily seen.
QUOTE]
In the world of home built stitch and glue designs, the boats are overbuilt to begin with and the areas around a composite joint will fail before the joint will. When I say composite joint I am refering to a glassed, structural joint. Even if there is a quality issue among the different brand of epoxies, which I personaly do not think is the case, does it really matter? I don't think so. Fortunatly I aint in the buisiness of making all that fancy lightweight, bagged, injected, fused, carbon fiber stuff or I might have to continue on with my 6th grade eduction just to get a grasp of the sience of epoxies. ;)
---Joel---

[boatbuilder.org]

To John Blazy
After reading my last post, I could see how it could be taken the wrong way. I do not have the scientific background to pick through all the claims epoxy companies make and tend to be a bit cynical toward all of them. I instead rely on my own "hands on" experiences. I did not intend to make light of your post, hell I didn't even understand half of it it was so over my head smile.gif
---Joel---

[NormMessinger]

No kidding. I thought the chemist was ghost writing for him. tongue.gif

[Paulyboy]

John- if you thin an epoxy mix with acetone, or something else, to slightly thicker than water consistency, will it then be able to saturate plywood ,or regular wood, by painting it onto the surface? I'd think that painting all the planks before actually glassing over them would help to seal, strengthen and protect the wood itself, even without the fiberglass cloth sheeted over it. Also, could you do this to the wood after it's cut, but before you assembled it?

[ 01-13-2005, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Paulyboy ]