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km gresham
10-01-2004, 06:42 AM
Debate Spin from Mike Reagan, Rudy, McCain, Edwards, Dick Morris, More
NewsMax.com ^ | 10/01/04 | NewsMax Staff

Dick Morris
For former Clinton strategist Dick Morris, Thursday night's presidential debate was a split decision.

"Bush won on substance - I think Kerry did better on style," he told the Fox News Channel.

The former White House political advisor said Kerry's positions on the Iraq war are "so contradictory and so mixed up that they obviously couldn't hold up in the debate."

Morris detailed the Kerry debate positions that he found most problematic and explained why they were wrong:

"You can't have a commander-in-chief who tells the troops to go fight 'the wrong war," the one-time Clinton strategist complained.

"Obviously you need bunker-busting nuclear weapons," which Kerry opposes. "Where do you think the weapons of mass destruction are - in store windows?" Morris said.

"Obviously we need China in multilateral talks. How else will you get the North Koreans to play ball?"

But though Kerry's failed on substance, Morris saved his harshest words for the president's performance, telling Fox:

"I thought that Bush was as unfocused, undisciplined, unenergetic, smirking - as I thought he was during the pre-primary debates in 2000."

Morris lamented the missed opportunity for Bush, saying, "If he was as effective in the first 88 minutes as he was in the last two minutes, Kerry would be out of the race now."

Gen. Tommy Franks

Zeroing in on John Kerry's description of the Iraq war during Thursday night's debate as a "grand diversion" to the real war on terror, former CENTCOM commander Gen. Tommy Franks complained:

"I would find it very difficult to look in the eyes of an ally or to look in the eyes of a mom or a dad and describe what their sons and daughters are going through as a 'grand diversion.'"

"That bothered me, yes it did," Gen. Franks told the Fox News Channel.

Franks said Kerry's position - that the war was wrong in the first place but now must be won - sends a confusing message the troops on the ground.

"You've got to respect the troops. You've got to believe in your heart that what you're doing, if you're going to fight a war for the United States of America, is precisely right at precisely the right time.

"And so the Senator's comments give me a little problem."

Gen. Franks also took issue with Kerry's claim that troops and equipment from the Afghan war were diverted to Iraq.

"The fact of the matter is that I was responsible for both Afghanistan and Iraq, he told Fox. "The numbers speak for themselves.

"The day we started operations in Iraq we had about 9,500 Americans operating in Afghanistan. That number, in fact, increased during operations in Iraq and continues to increase today."

Peggy Noonan

Former Reagan speechwriter – now an adviser to the Bush-Cheney campaign – said she thought both candidates "did just fine."

But Bush gave the more genuine and sincere performance, she said, telling the Fox News Channel, "I think it was a replay of Bush-Gore 2000 to this extent: You had the prosecutor versus the normal guy.

"Remember what that was like four years ago, with this guy sort of relentlessly hammering and this other guy being maybe less verbally agile and yet somehow winning your sympathy and winning your respect."

But Noonan said there was no question Kerry was the more focused of the two debaters.

"Kerry often seems to me like someone who is somewhat distracted when he speaks," she explained. "Sometimes to me he seems like someone who is distracted by a kind of a depression – as if he's depressed and he's trying to be cheerful and it's a distraction. Tonight he was focused. He didn't have any of that stuff."

Michael Reagan

"Kerry argued like a senator, and the president acted as president of the United States.

"One of the most telling moments in the debate was when the president talked about the International Criminal Court and his not wanting to turn over the military to that court while Kerry wanted to turn over everything to the U.N.

"And even more telling was Kerry stating that before we act pre-emptively that we need global approval.

"The president was very strong stating that when we are prepared to strike we don’t need global approval – we have to protect the citizens of the United States of America first.

"The debate showed that Kerry is very much an internationalist, very much a person who wants to go to the U.N. for everything. But if you look at the U.N., you can’t find anything they’ve ever accomplished. ...

"If my father would have gone to the U.N. about Grenada, we never would have gotten those people out.

"If my father had gone to the U.N. about Libya, he never would have gotten the fly-by.

"This president understands that, and even though he doesn’t like going to the U.N. – but he’s almost forced by public opinion to go to the U.N. – he understands that the U.N. doesn’t run our foreign policy and can’t.

"What was clear was that if you want the U.N. to control our foreign policy – when we can act pre-emptively and when we can’t – then we should vote for John Kerry. If you want a president who wants to protect the United States, vote for George Bush."

John McCain

Sen. John McCain told Larry King on CNN he thought it was a good debate, without the "zingers" and one-liners that have characterized other debates.

He said, "The president was very convincing that what he has done is right."

McCain is glad the president pointed out that the "benefits of democracy are very significant for the world, and I think that appeals" to Americans.

King asked McCain if President Bush was different than he was four years ago during his debate with McCain.

The Arizona senator said, "I think four years of the presidentcy has had a maturing effect ... yes, he's really grown."

King asked McCain how he thought Sen. Kerry performed in the debate, and McCain thought Kerry did well, but added that Kerry "failed to resolve the inconsistencies on his position on Iraq."

"And listen, this idea" that Kerry can get others to help us in Iraq ... "Europeans and others are not going to help us until we get the situation stabilized."

John Edwards

When asked by Tom Brokaw what he thought Kerry's best moment of the debate was, the vice presidential candidate agreed with Tim Russert that tonight Kerry seemed to find his voice for the Democrats of the world.

He said Kerry had a strong voice, was ready to lead America, and "showed commitment to finishing the job and being successful in Iraq."

Edwards said that Bush "didn't explain how things are going to change in the next four years." Edwards thinks Bush had no plan for Iraq and said that Americans are less safe because of Bush's performance regarding Iraq.

Brokaw asked why Kerry and Edwards voted to give the president the authority to deal with Saddam, and how Kerry could possibly get other countries involved when those that are not in Iraq now – namely, Germany and France, along with the U.N.'s Kofi Annan – have said they want nothing to do with Iraq.

Edwards claimed it was the "right thing to confront Saddam," but not the right thing to create the "mess" we have now in Iraq, which he attributed directly to "the failures of George Bush and Dick Cheney."

He added that it was "impossible" to fix problems if you can't admit there are any, which he said Bush hadn't.

Edwards told Brokaw that "a new president will have a different level of credibility" and that would translate into a "real possibility" for others to get involved in Iraq.

Rudy Giuliani

Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, told Tom Brokaw that President Bush's best moment of the debate was "making clear his firm resolve to complete the war on terror and to give hope" to the Iraqi people.

"America's Mayor" said that it was a "horrible message that Kerry sends – Kerry negates the purpose for which we are there" in Iraq.

He said that "we're trying to bring freedom" and a legitimate government and hope to our troops who are there that we're going to finish the job, and that's the "stark difference" between the two candidates.

Rudy said President Bush thinks "we have to be on offense against terror."

As for Kerry, Giuliani was incredulous that "in one breath he says Saddam is a threat, and at the end of the debate he said Saddam wasn't."

Giuliani said doublespeak like that gives the "American people a lack of confidence" that Kerry can be the commander in chief in a time of war.

He said the President talked to the American people, Kerry lectured.

km gresham
10-01-2004, 06:55 AM
Why Bush Won
The American Spectator ^ | 10-01-04 | John Tabin

Bush won the debate last night.

Yes, yes, all the snap polls and focus groups, like most of the talking heads, say that Kerry won. It was stylistically his best performance in memory. He certainly passed the "looks Presidential" test. The lights indicating the time limit, which everyone, including me, thought would hurt Kerry, turned out to be great for him, forcing him to adjust his rhetorical style for the better; it was in fact Bush who went over time once.

But here's a quick test of last night's electoral effect: what do you remember a day later, off the top of your head?

Chances are, it's that Kerry called Iraq "the wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time." Or that it is bad to send "mixed messages" (or "mixed signals"). Bush said each of these things seven times (Kerry, attempting to parry Bush's thrusts, said "mixed messages" another three times). Kerry spoke competently on each point of debate, but swing voters aren't going to walk around with his talking points in mind -- he only brought up rushing to war three times, for example.

Kerry scored some real rhetorical blows, but he didn't hammer them home as he should have. The failure to catch bin Laden in Tora Bora is a real vulnerability, and while Kerry wisely brought it up early, he only mentioned it again once. While Bush may have the better half of the argument over the efficacy of bilateral vs. multilateral talks with Pyongyang, and the Clintonites may bear much of the blame for the progress of North Korea's nuclear program, but the fact that the missiles went online recently is, at bottom, a big problem for the President. By the time Kerry brought up North Korea, casual viewers -- and the typical swing voter is about as casual as they come -- may have already tuned out.

And Kerry's performance, as good as it was by his standards, was still marred by a few gaffes. That his idea of a superior president is one who asks foreign leaders "What do you need, what do you need now, how much more will it take to get you to join us?" is not the best image for Kerry to project. Romantically invoking a meeting with Charles de Gaulle in Paris does little to dispel the perception of excessive France-friendliness. And the notion of "global test" for when preemption is okay left Bush open to zing him for wanting to let international popularity trump national interest.

Matt Drudge posted last night that Kerry advisors were unknowingly caught in a candid conversation by C-SPAN's cameras where Joe Lockhart told Mike McCurry that "the consensus is it was a draw." Lockhart is more or less correct. And that's why I say Bush won. Kerry might get a small bounce in the polls, but probably not enough to fundamentally change the trajectory of the race.

Is the election over? Not yet -- despite the consensus that last night's would be by far the most important match-up, something in the upcoming debates could prove far more relevant. A lot can change in a month. For the moment, though, Bush's small edge is likely to remain.

John Tabin is a frequent online contributor to The American Spectator.

Joe (SoCal)
10-01-2004, 07:00 AM
SPIN :eek: SPIN :eek: SPIN

Karen did you watch the same debate that I did last night ??????

km gresham
10-01-2004, 07:14 AM
Note: These are not my comments.

Garrett Lowell
10-01-2004, 07:18 AM
What a lot of (Kerry) people still don't get is that nobody really likes John Kerry. He's not someone many, if not most, people would care to have over for a casual dinner and conversation, and the debate last night kind of reinforced that image. Of course, many would argue that this doesn't matter in a leader, that dinner and a chat is not the reason you elect a leader, and I would say, "true". But you can't be a leader if nobody will follow.

ljb5
10-01-2004, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Garrett Lowell:
What a lot of (Kerry) people still don't get is that nobody really likes John Kerry. A lot of people really don't like Bush. But whenever we bring that up, we get accused of "Bush Bashing."

Garrett Lowell
10-01-2004, 08:25 AM
Well, that's not really what I was saying, ljb5. If you just look at each person from a personal point of view, and leave politics out of the equation altogether, I think the average person would instinctively gravitate towards Bush in a social setting. Kerry doesn't have that type of personality, or at least that's my impression.

Joe (SoCal)
10-01-2004, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by km gresham:
Note: These are not my comments.
Originally posted by km gresham:
Hey, y'all I'm gonna go ahead and declare Kerry the winner of all 3 debates. Got ya

Garrett , I have to disagree I find Kerry very likable. He seemed very presidential last night he stood up strait answered every question with dignity and professionalism deserving of the office. He jotted notes instead of smirking. I will take that any day over some um uhhhh um uhhh those folks kind of response that Bush made. I also HATE the smirk it comes off as trite and the way a person without a real answer would dismiss a question. Also Bush's sense of humor man 0 man does anyone think he is funny. He reminds me of the owner of a business throwing a company party and telling bad jokes but everyone laughs because they are afraid of loosing there jobs. The man is not funny and I do not find him folksy, I don't like his religious overtones, BTW did anyone hear the stem cell jab kerry threw? I might have liked him better in his hell raising drinking days, but now he just plain scares me he is so stupid. Kerry on the other hand seems real to me like he has his sh!t together. Bush look juvenile in comparison, hey if you think juvenile is a likeability asset then vote for Karen's son

http://awesomereport.com/pix/johnpres.jpg
I hear he is AWESOME™ ;)

The next debate is a Town Hall format lets talk about likability then, OK

km gresham
10-01-2004, 09:53 AM
Kerry is brilliant - according to the French. ;)

Joe (SoCal)
10-01-2004, 10:00 AM
Kerry is brilliant according to me AND a LOT of the AMERICAN public. Bush is considered arrogant and dumb by most of the world including France, and a LOT of Americans.

Whew that was easy - I feel AWESOME™ now :D

km gresham
10-01-2004, 11:24 AM
Rasmussen Reports Bush 49% Kerry 45%
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/ ^

Up from Bush 48% Kerry 46%

Kev Smyth
10-01-2004, 12:14 PM
Dang- Kerry hates it when that happens!! :D

Joe (SoCal)
10-01-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by km gresham:
Rasmussen Reports Bush 49% Kerry 45%
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/ ^

Up from Bush 48% Kerry 46%Karen did you Rasmussen Reports watch the same debate I did last night. Bush was up by what 8pt before the debate now he is up by only 2 after the first debate.

Kev Smyth
10-01-2004, 12:47 PM
Got a source, joey? :rolleyes:

And let's not get too excited yet. Remember how Mondale had Regan being talked about as "too old and tired," and the possibility of senility was raised during their first debate?

I think RR won that election by one of the biggest landslides in history. We've got the same characters playing again this time.. :D

Joe (SoCal)
10-01-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Kev Smyth:
My understanding is Bush looked tired because he was worn out emotionally after spending the morning visiting hurricane victims around Florida. Given his empathetic nature, it makes sense. :(

I hear Kerry spent the day getting a manicure. :rolleyes: Conrad-I-Was Got A Source ? ;)

[ 10-01-2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

Joe (SoCal)
10-01-2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Kev Smyth:
Got a source, joey? :rolleyes:

And let's not get too excited yet. Remember how Mondale had Regan being talked about as "too old and tired," and the possibility of senility was raised during their first debate?

I think RR won that election by one of the biggest landslides in history. We've got the same characters playing again this time.. :D LINK

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-09-30-inside-debate_x.htm

Officials from both campaigns said Thursday's debate, and the two others between Bush and Kerry that will be held this month, could reshape the race. Bush led Kerry by 5 to 8 percentage points in national polls before the debate.

km gresham
10-01-2004, 01:04 PM
Rasmussen is a daily tracking poll. Kerry hasn't led since August (23rd I think). Their poll Monday will be the first post debate poll.

Kev Smyth
10-01-2004, 01:20 PM
"But 54% said Bush demonstrated he's tough enough for the job, compared with 37% for Kerry."

(From joe's link) :D

ljb5
10-01-2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Garrett Lowell:
Well, that's not really what I was saying, ljb5. If you just look at each person from a personal point of view, and leave politics out of the equation altogether, I think the average person would instinctively gravitate towards Bush in a social setting. Kerry doesn't have that type of personality, or at least that's my impression.Well, I've got the opposite impression. Kerry is known to be knowledgeable and able to talk to many people about lots of subjects.

Several of his officer fitness reports specifically mention how likable he is and how much the men who served with him respect him. When he was aboard the Gridley, his CO noted that the men under his command had the best morale on the ship.

Bush is known to have a mean streak. He's been seen to berate people in public (mostly when drunk, but also when sober). His Harvard professors say he was very nasty in class. He's known to hold grudges for very long times over very small infractions.

The Bush daughters have publically sniped at their Secret Service guardians when they tried to drink in public and there were reports of them stiffing the waiters on a $4,800 bar tab.

[ 10-01-2004, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: ljb5 ]

km gresham
10-01-2004, 02:16 PM
Wow, ljb5! Those are some nasty people. You left out Karl Rove, though. And Halliburton. ;) :D

Art Read
10-01-2004, 04:11 PM
"Also Bush's sense of humor man 0 man does anyone think he is funny(?)"

Humor is a "funny" thing, Joe. Most often best judged by others. Perhaps our president isn't "ready for prime time" on Saturday Night Live yet, but that's not how I judge our political leadership.

You've touted your own "humor" here many times. Personally, I find it sophmoric. And I find your "witty" critiques of others here on the forum gratuitous and offensive. Go figure...

(See, here you've got me doing the same thing now... Pretty silly, eh?)

[ 10-01-2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

Donn
10-01-2004, 04:13 PM
:D :cool: Art! Now that's funny! tongue.gif

George.
10-01-2004, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Art Read:
"Also Bush's sense of humor man 0 man does anyone think he is funny(?)"

^

I think he is funny. He'd be comic if he wasn't tragic.

imported_Steven Bauer
10-01-2004, 06:21 PM
Bush on 9/13/2001: "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."

Bush on 3/13/2002: "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."

Joe (SoCal)
10-01-2004, 06:26 PM
:( :confused: Steven ! Now that is sad ! :confused: :(

Joe (SoCal)
10-01-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Art Read:
You've touted your own "humor" here many times. Personally, I find it sophmoric. And I find your "witty" critiques of others here on the forum gratuitous and offensive. Go figure...

(See, here you've got me doing the same thing now... Pretty silly, eh?)Art, I'll wait until Donn shoots himself, when I want your opinion
tongue.gif