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ishmael
12-19-2002, 03:10 PM
Hundreds of Muslim immigrants were rounded up yesterday in California. Their immigration status is unclear.

How do you feel about this? Anyone here illegally ought to be deported, but if they are rounding up people on valid work or study visas...

Yet another indication that we are gearing up for war.

Full story.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&u=/nm/20021219/ts_nm/attack_immigration_dc_3&printer=1

Meerkat
12-19-2002, 03:13 PM
Interesting that it didn't make the national news...

What did make the news was a (re)announcement that the Pentegon is calling up 35,000 reservists for Iraq.

"We wish you a merry christmas and a happy new war
Good tidings to you we bring - report for active duty and we don't mean next spring!"

stan v
12-19-2002, 03:15 PM
:D

Joe (SoCal)
12-19-2002, 03:22 PM
OK this may be a little off base. But I have been trying to wrap my mind around this WAR thing. We asked to allow UN Inspectors in they said OK. We asked for full disclosure they gave us what? How many thousands of documents? Now come on you KNOW there not going to disclose EVERYTHING that's what the inspectors were for. We said sorry not enough you broke the deal were going to war. Personally I ask you would it ever have been enough or would Bush find and excuse. Honestly - I don't get this WAR. Trust me Sadam is an evil man and should be gone. This scam about WOMD just sounds fishy to me. Hell they know were going to WAR they should have saved all the paper work in the beginning

ishmael
12-19-2002, 03:36 PM
"INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes." That doesn't quite make sense. This was a required registration of Muslim men over the age of 16. If you were here illegally, would you just show up? And then have the gall to complain when you were arrested?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Meerkat
12-19-2002, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by LOON:
"INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes." Hmmm... yet all those arrested had shown up in compliance of a deadline for registration based on their country of origin. Obviously felons and terrorists of the lowest order.

I guess if none of those arabs where pissed off before, they are now! Wayta go Dubya!

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-19-2002, 03:50 PM
No problem... just put em in camps and take all their property. Just like the japanese in WW2. As Walt Kelly said "All men are created equal, but some men are more equal then others" ... :(

Alan D. Hyde
12-19-2002, 03:59 PM
Well, actually, Walt borrowed that from George Orwell's Animal Farm.

Alan

Dave Fleming
12-19-2002, 04:07 PM
From O&O East.

It must be crippling the gas station and convenience store business in SoCal. Actually the ones I am aware of down here in 'insane Diego' are Chaldians(sp) Irag Christians, but So Cal is a big area and who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of shify followers of Mohammed??

Memphis Mike
12-19-2002, 04:09 PM
I hope they don't get the ones that run
my neighborhood convience store. They
make great sandwiches there.

LeeG
12-19-2002, 04:12 PM
this is from the article, I suppose if Ashcroft if compiling a database of links/contacts this is a beginning but it seems awfully crude and not at all effective for finding "terrorist" cells. "excuse me, we can finish this meeting later,I must go report my illegal status, the INS is extending the deadline"

INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes. The program was prompted by concern about the lack of records on tourists, students and other visitors to the United States after the Sept. 11 hijack plane attacks on New York and Washington.

Islamic community leaders said many of the detainees had been living, working and paying taxes in the United States for five or 10 years, and had families here.

"Terrorists most likely wouldn't come to the INS to register. It is really a bad way to go about it. They are being treated as criminals and that really goes against American ideals of fairness, and justice and democracy," Khan said.

The Iranian protesters said many of those detained were victims of official delays in processing visa and green card requests.

"My father, they just took him in," one young man told reporters. "They've been treating him like an animal. They put him in a room with, like, 50 other people and no bed or anything."

Khan said one of those in jail was a doctor, who was being sponsored for U.S. citizenship when his sponsor died.

One Syrian man said he went to register in Orange County with a dozen friends. He was the only one to come out of the INS office. "All my friends are inside right now," M.M. Trapici, 45, told reporters. "I have to visit the family for each one today. Most of them have small kids."

Wayne Jeffers
12-19-2002, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
OK this may be a little off base. But I have been trying to wrap my mind around this WAR thing. We asked to allow UN Inspectors in they said OK. We asked for full disclosure they gave us what? How many thousands of documents? Now come on you KNOW there not going to disclose EVERYTHING that's what the inspectors were for. We said sorry not enough you broke the deal were going to war. Personally I ask you would it ever have been enough or would Bush find and excuse. Honestly - I don't get this WAR. Trust me Sadam is an evil man and should be gone. This scam about WOMD just sounds fishy to me. Hell they know were going to WAR they should have saved all the paper work in the beginningBut, Joe, we've got to make it look good. Heck, even Hitler put dead bodies in Polish Army uniforms just inside Germany in order to make it look like Poland started the war. :rolleyes:

Saddam is a nasty SOB sitting on the second largest know oil reserves in the world and we know where he's at. What more reason do we need. We put some puppet in power and US oil companies can get at all that oil under very favorable terms.

Finding bin Laden can wait. There's money to be made.

Wayne

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-19-2002, 05:49 PM
But I think Walt did come up with "We have seen the enemy, and he is us"

Joe (SoCal)
12-20-2002, 12:12 AM
Wayne the sad thing is I BELIEVE YOU I don't believe Bush :( :( :(

imported_Conrad
12-20-2002, 12:29 AM
You guys are all such heartless cynics. The only reason we're going into Iraq is to free millions of persecuted women from the oppressive male dominated society. It's not only the right thing to do, it's also good politics, giving GW the pre-emptive inside track against Hillary in '04. :D That George is one smart guy. ;)

NormMessinger
12-20-2002, 08:48 AM
I hadn't heard that Conrad. Now I could support the excursion if that is the reason. Frankly, I beleive all women should be free.

--Norm

John Bell
12-20-2002, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Frankly, I beleive all women should be free.

--NormKind of like the girl in MM's 'Wintry Landscape
thread? ;)

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007093

Greg H
12-20-2002, 09:40 AM
Most of these people fled to this country to escape this kind of thing. Most are known to the INS, and are in the process of becomming legal. The delays caused by an underfunded, ineficient INS causes the process to take longer than many laws allow. It takes years and years. Often if you follow the time limits to the letter you end up breaking other rules and need to start over from the beginning.
Mix this with a little racism and a desire to look tough........

is this next? http://zoom.cafepress.com/8/1587718_zoom.jpg

stan v
12-20-2002, 09:57 AM
Maybe you are from Mars? How quickly the liberal will play the racist card. Now, this INS check was done in California, not a conservative mecca, and I doubt you, or anybody else on this board, is up to speed on the details of this immigrant check. I'm sure there were some Muhammad Khan's that were inadvertantly picked up, like John Smith's would, and will be eventually recognized, cleared and sent on their way. It's also possible that the Feds know something about California right now that they wish to not share at the moment. Frankly, if it were me, I'd be questioning some of you. But you might like the handcuff part.

Greg H
12-20-2002, 10:13 AM
Why bother with questions if you assume all the answers.

stan v
12-20-2002, 10:18 AM
Sir, you assumed racism. Why?

John 8:32
12-20-2002, 10:29 AM
I'm as quick as anyone to recognize the incompetencies of the INS and the bungling, ineptitude and downright nastiness of the FBI in the past. But I am not, in general, a conspiracy theorist.
What is undeniable, however, is that we are currently the target of an organization (perhaps organizations) that is predominately made up of people from certain ethnic groups. In the event of more attacks, the hue and din would be more like "why did they not track these people closer after September 11th? Any idiot could see that it would most likely be Middle Eastern men who would attack again!"
Everyone loves to point at the Japanese internment, and perhaps that was not our finest hour. But bear in mind that it was a different world then...again, the West Coast was threatened by primarily one nation, and it was enticingly easy to solve the problem by internment. From what I've read, conditions were kept as comfortable as possible.
But that was then, this is now. We are faced with a very slippery, vexing problem. The INS has been notoriously incompetent at keeping track of people in the past...bungling is guaranteed top take place in the present and future.

ishmael
12-20-2002, 11:03 AM
I'm all for keeping track of, infiltrating, spying, selectively, on Muslims in this country. It not only isn't racist, to not do so would be foolhardy. But to arrest people en mass who are coming voluntarily, according to law, even if some(for whatever reason) aren't up to speed on their immigration status, is equally shortsighted. It is underhanded, and the voluntary cooperation by people who might have useful information has just been fatally short-circuited. Stupid, stupid, stupid!

Where there are immigration violations, sort them out on a case by case basis. If we don't have enough INS agents, hire more. But to arrest hundreds who are trying to be responsible is truly unfathomable.

Greg H
12-20-2002, 11:05 AM
Racism was not the focus of my opinion, Stan. I used it rather broadly, in the same way you use the word "liberal". However, It is a factor in the US view of the world. It is often part of an unconcious and sometimes intntional attempt to demonize an enemy, or any group that we want to feel superior to.

This was a poorly done, heavy handed enforcement of a law, that's likely to do more harm than good. If you were in the country to do evil deeds, would you show up to be fingerprinted and questioned after this, or would you go underground?
Grandstanding

"Major Strasser's been shot, round up the usual suspects"

[ 12-20-2002, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Greg H ]

Jim H
12-20-2002, 11:25 AM
The idea that any member of a terrorist cell would show up for something like this is ridiculous. The INS has a poor track record when it comes to finding illegal immigrants, if you did not report I doubt they'd ever find you unless you did something to get arrested. I think this is INS backlash (government dept.s move slowly), they bungled with the 9/11 hijackers, bungled with one of the sniper suspects and the spotlight is on them now. There is nothing worse then a bureaucracy on a mission to look like they're doing their job. They will piss everyone off, create a lot of fodder for the news and spend millions doing it. Of course, they do have to obey the laws laid down by Congress, something they have failed to do in the past.

[ 12-20-2002, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: JimHillman ]

Alan D. Hyde
12-20-2002, 12:26 PM
I have, at best, mixed feelings about this.

The INS is an inept and bungling bureaucratic tangle of unmotivated and semi-moronic functionaries maintained lavishly at public expense.

I know one immigrant from a communist country whose green card was long delayed because she couldn't obtain from a fallen and defunct government in her country of origin a copy of her forty-year-old marriage license.

This, despite the fact that she had an original of a relatively recent divorce decree from the same individual. She tried to explain that IF she hadn't been married to the guy, she wouldn't have divorced him, but got only a blank stare and a re-iterated demand in response.

I don't like bullies. The INS way too often looks like a pack of bullies.

Alan

Meerkat
12-20-2002, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by stan v:
Maybe you are from Mars? How quickly the liberal will play the racist card. Now, this INS check was done in California, not a conservative mecca, and I doubt you, or anybody else on this board, is up to speed on the details of this immigrant check. I'm sure there were some Muhammad Khan's that were inadvertantly picked up, like John Smith's would, and will be eventually recognized, cleared and sent on their way. It's also possible that the Feds know something about California right now that they wish to not share at the moment. Frankly, if it were me, I'd be questioning some of you. But you might like the handcuff part.How quickly the conservative demegogue losens his sphincter and dumps more BS on the world, secure in his own ignorance.

plimsol
12-20-2002, 01:30 PM
If you think things are bad now, just wait until the Dept of Home Land Security is up and running. The bureacratic turf wars are going to paralyze it. We will get the same Keystone cops but at ten times the cost.
George Wallace was right, there isn't a dimes worth of difference between the two parties. They are both administraitively and financially inept. The Republicans are now, "Cut taxes and spend". The Democrats are a little more honest, "Raise taxes and spend". Neither are for less Government, there is too much money to be made from it at your expense.
On second thought, this is just a trial baloon for declaring Martial Law when the war starts. The general populace is not upset at the mass round ups, all they want is, "my MTV". They are willing to give up their freedoms for the illusion of security. This will make it so much easier for the Republican elite to permanently consolidate their control of Amerika.

Alan D. Hyde
12-20-2002, 01:38 PM
The threat to our individual liberties comes primarily from the massive bureaucracy spawned by FDR and his successors, and by two generations of uninterrupted Democratic control of Congress.

The monster was created, fed, and raised to majority by the Democrats, and was cut back only during the Reagan Administration. The only two subsequent Republican Congresses have continued, in a sad failure of integrity and political will, to feed it.

If your mad dog eats a meal on my lawn, am I the party most responsible for its subsequent depredations???

Alan

ishmael
12-20-2002, 01:56 PM
Alan,

Even though Frankenstein Delano Roosevelt created it, the monster now belongs to both parties, and both are rather completely enamoured of it.

The massive re-organization of the central government, for example, recently passed into law with almost no complaint by either side of the aisle, originated in a Republican Whitehouse. It is going to cost billions of dollars and NOT make government smaller, and likely NOT make any of us safer. As near as I can tell, it is going to make all of us less secure in our privacy.

Pointing fingers at Roosevelt really doesn't help matters at this point, no matter the historical accuracy of the charges.

All of this is one reason a Harry Browne has his attractions. He's an idealogue, just as much as any Democrat or Republican, but it is a real ideology of making government smaller and contained by the Constitution. That he seems a bit far out at times just indicates how far we've fallen since 1933.

Jack

[ 12-20-2002, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Nicholas Carey
12-20-2002, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by John 8:32:
Everyone loves to point at the Japanese internment, and perhaps that was not our finest hour...it was enticingly easy to solve the problem by internment. From what I've read, conditions were kept as comfortable as possible.
So the unlawful jailing of people for an indefinite period of time -- At His Majesty's Pleasure, so to speak -- is OK, provided the conditions of imprisonment are sufficiently comfy?

Really? You yourself wouldn't mind your and your famil having your bank accounts confiscated and either having your property confiscated or forced to be sold at a huge loss, and then being locked up, for 3-5 years or more, provides you had your Lazy-Boy, a case of Miller and a TV set?

Even Those In The Know in the government didn't suffer from the illusion that these internments were necessary. Here's what J. Edgar Hoover wrote to Francis Biddle (Attorney General) on 2 February 1942 regarding the matter:


The necessity for mass evacuation is based primarily upon public and political pressure rather than on factual data. Public hysteria and in some instances, the comments of the press and radio announcers, have resulted in a tremendous amount of pressure being brought to bear on Governor Olson and Earl Warren, Attorney General of the State, and on the military authorities... Local officials, press and citizens have started widespread movement demanding complete evacuation of all Japanese, citizen and alien alike.Hoover criticized the Army Military Intelligence Department as 'untrained, disorganized, hysterical, and lacking in judgment.' He wrote in an earlier memo:


...although the situation was critical, there was no sense in the Army losing their heads as they did in the Booneville Dam affair, where the power lines were sabotaged by cattle scratching their backs on the wires, or the "arrows of fire" near Seattle, which was only a farmer burning brush as he had done for years.Biddle himself wanted nothing to do with the matter. In a memo to Roosevelt dated 17 February 1942, he wrote, illuminating the real reasons underlying the 'evacuation' of persons of Japanese ancestry:


For several weeks there have been increasing demands for evacuation of all Japanese, aliens and citizens alike, from the West Coast states. A great many West Coast people distrust the Japanese, various special interests would welcome their removal from good farm land and the elimination of their competition... My last advice from the War Department is that there is no evidence of imminent attack and from the F.B.I. that there is no evidence of planned sabotage.Lt. General John L. DeWitt wrote on 26 December 1941 to General Allen Gullion (Provost Marshall):


If we go ahead and arrest the 93,000 Japanese, native born and foreign born, we are going to have an awful job on our hands and are very liable to alienate the loyal Japanese from disloyal... I'm very doubtful that it would be common sense procedure to try and intern or to intern 117,000 Japanese in this theater... rather than try to intern all those people, men, women, and children, and hold them under military control and under guard. I don't think it's a sensible thing to do... An American citizen, after all, is an American citizen. And while they all may not be loyal, I think we can weed the disloyal out of the loyal and lock them up if necessary.BTW, the conditions in the euphemistically called 'relocations centers' were by no means 'comfortable'. This is from a government report writting in May 1943 that attempted to put some quality spin on the whole thing:


The Evacuated People

In the interest of both accuracy and fairness, it is important to distinguish sharply between the residents of relocation centers and the militarists of Imperial Japan. Two-thirds of the people in the centers are American citizens, born in this country and educated, for the most part, in American public schools. At all centers, the residents have bought thousands of dollars worth of war bonds and have made significant contributions to the American Red Cross. Many of them have sons, husbands, and brothers in the United States Army. Even the aliens among them have nearly all lived in the United States for two decades or longer. And it is important to remember that these particular aliens have been denied the privilege of gaining American citizenship under our laws.

It is also important to distinguish between residents of relocation centers and civilian internees. Under our laws, aliens of enemy nationality who are found guilty of acts or intentions against the security of the Nation are being confined in internment camps which are administered not by the War Relocation Authority but the Department of Justice. American citizens suspected of subversive activities are being handled through the ordinary courts. The residents of the relocation centers, however, have never been found guilty–-either individually or collectively-–of any such acts or intentions. They are merely a group of American residents who happen to have Japanese ancestors and who happened to be living in a potential combat zone shortly after the outbreak of war. All evidences available to the War Relocation Authority indicates that the great majority of them are completely loyal to the United States.

The Relocation Centers

The physical standards of life in the relocation centers have never been much above the bare subsistence level. For some few of the evacuees, these standards perhaps represent a slight improvement over those enjoyed before evacuation. But for the great majority of the evacuated people, the environment of the centers–despite all efforts to make them livable–remains subnormal and probably always will be. In spite of the leave privileges, the movement of evacuees while they reside at the centers is necessarily somewhat restricted and a certain feeling of isolation and confinement is almost inevitable.

Housing is provided for the evacuee residents of the centers in tarpaper-covered barracks of simple frame construction without plumbing or cooking facilities of any kind. Most of these barracks are partitioned off so that a family of five or six, for example, will normally occupy a single room 25 by 20 feet. Bachelors and other unattached evacuees live mainly in unpartitioned barracks which have been established as dormitories. The only furnishings provided by the Government in the residence barracks are standard Army cots and blankets and small heating stoves. One bath, laundry, and toilet building is available for each block of barracks and is shared by upwards of 250 people.

Allen Foote
12-20-2002, 04:04 PM
Oh, the LIBERALs fretter about, pulling thier hair out! How can we go to war, when the economys such a bore? They are all in a dither, cause the economys in the sh****r, and thier trust funds aren't paying out anymore. No extra $ for tied dyes nor Berkinstocks.....or road trips to protest. How can the US go to war when the silver spoon children can't afford to march in the Capitol blocking traffic that would just as soon run them over? OH MY GOD!!! Lets blame it on oil....every urban welfare mother that can't afford a car will join in the Liberal din! Only GOOD Republicans drive SUVs! The posts by the Liberals here are commical....and I laugh at you! :D

[ 12-20-2002, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

Jim H
12-20-2002, 04:20 PM
O.K., so everyone agrees that the different alphabet agencies missed signs and clues to the 9/11 attack. Worse they did not share intelligence. We (the people) do want them to cooperate with each other in an effort to prevent further attacks. With me so far? So we now have a new department with a clunky name, Homeland Security. Where did government grow?? Combining the agencies under one department head will lead to less in-fighting and conflicts between the agencies will be settled more quickly. How is this bigger government? It's a re-organization, musical chairs. So, please stop the myth of "bigger gov't" when refering to Homeland Security ( I swear that's the "Pacer" of names, could'nt they have come up with something better than a name out of a "B" action movie?) it's really silly.
Jim

imported_Conrad
12-20-2002, 04:24 PM
Come on Allen, tell us what you really think!! Welcome back!! :D ;)

Opps, gotta add those smilies!

[ 12-20-2002, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Conrad S. ]

stan v
12-20-2002, 04:24 PM
JimHillman, yes, silly name I guess. But you did describe EXACTLY how it works. Everybody has access to information gathered. Makes it easier to add 2 + 2. This last election really has the left upset. :rolleyes:

[ 12-20-2002, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: stan v ]

Shang
12-20-2002, 04:43 PM
"...It's also possible that the Feds know something about California right now that they wish to not share at the moment..." --stanvee

Oh, like what?
Com'on now, Feds, you can trust us registered voters...
Just whisper it in our ears, we won't breath a word to Osama.

( Sieg heil ! )

Allen Foote
12-20-2002, 04:51 PM
The very first post on this thread spells it ALL out! We should REJOICE that the Muslims of questioned immagration status have been rounded up! SHAME on you for attempted pandering to our emotions! Round them up and send them back from wence they came! This should only be the "land of the free" for AMERICANS! Let the other bastards GO HOME! If there is only 1 terrorist in 100....ITS 1 TO MANY!!! The Japanese intermant camps were needed at that time and it was the correct course of action AT THAT TIME. How often do you whinning Liberals judge our past by todays standards? And for what? Pandering to our "guilt?" or "shameful actions on some specific racial group"? I'm glad some Japanese sympathiser that was in Montana so he couldn't blow up an oil refinery!

[ 12-20-2002, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

stan v
12-20-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by ishmael:
Hundreds of Muslim immigrants were rounded up yesterday in California. Their immigration status is unclear.

How do you feel about this? Anyone here illegally ought to be deported, but if they are rounding up people on valid work or study visas...

Jack, you really need to stop feeling so much, and start thinking more. If the immigration status is unclear, as stated, then what is this thread about? Did it occur to you that just maybe the real interest in these Muslims are for the ones THAT FAILED TO BE FOUND? In other words, WHERE IN THE HELL IS OLD ALLAH? ANY OF YOU SEEN HIM LATELY?

Jim H
12-20-2002, 05:01 PM
Allen Foote, I would guess that the same was said about the Irish (Donnelly's on mom's side) and the Italians (Monccetti on my father's side). If something like this had to happen, it should have included all illegal immigrants. Targeting such a narrow cross-section of illegal immigrants will provide, "the devil who shall remain nameless", more propaganda and the Middle East will get it from CNN not just al-jezeera.

Allen Foote
12-20-2002, 05:24 PM
Jim, because of 911, it is happening ALOT more frequently to ALL illegals. Funny you should bring that up......what about the MILLIONS of illegal Mexicans and El Salvadoreans? What about the thousands employed by the Tyson's food group in Delaware? Everyday the Washington Post has storys of lawyers prosecuted for filing thousands of false visas and work permits....but my favortite is..."John Malvo's mother was deported back to Jamaca when it was found that she was here illegally". (John Malvo is the teenaged sniper that terrorised the DC area) Ironically, it appears more often....that these heinious crimes are being commited by illegals. How many AMERICANS would be alive today if in fact, the INS DID thier job?

[ 12-20-2002, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

ishmael
12-20-2002, 05:25 PM
Stan,

I assume you are saying that these people were rounded up for questioning, so as to get leads on terrorist suspects? Possibly. If so it seems a damn ham handed way to go about things.

Whatever the reasons for this round up (ye hah! :D ), and whatever the civil liberties ramifications, the government has completely ruined any chance of good will amongst the immigrant Muslim community. I don't think a few possible leads, obtained (assuming you are correct) with a massive fishing expedition, are worth that loss.

Allen Foote
12-20-2002, 05:30 PM
Get a grip ishmeal...they should be kissing our asses to stay here! AND WE Americans deserve a polite thankyou for allowing them to stay here until deported.

stan v
12-20-2002, 05:33 PM
Jack, I don't know what the round up (and that's YeeeeHaaaa) is all about. I don't reckon we've branded any of 'em have we? Why would anyone believe that someone's civil rights have been denied without more information than what a reporter has provided? Whatever the reason, you and I don't have the need to know. Someone throw a life ring.

Allen, you are exactly right.

[ 12-20-2002, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: stan v ]

Jim H
12-20-2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by LOON:
Fair disclosure...the following is not, in any way, support of Allen Foote's view of life.

Jim...this really isn't a narrow cross-section at all. AFAIK, the only Italian and Irish passengers on the planes of 9/11, were victims, not terrorists.

This is war on terrorism, not a war on victims.I agree Donn and the people who will be deported have broken our laws, I have no problem with that. What I don't want to do is feed the devil's propaganda machine. In the age of instant communications/information and up-to-the-second mass-media coverage, perceptions are sometimes more powerful then reality. I doubt we'll find any terrorists this way (well maybe the Bevis & Butthead type terrorists ), worse, any chance that we'll get cooperation from the legal Middle Eastern community here in the states is going to dry up and blow away. I think it could have been handled a little differently, now it'll be a media circus with the ACLU and others on CNN, MSNBC, FOXNEWS etc every night for a year. I want agents out in the field actively looking for terorists, not booking 16yr olds, pregnant moms and grandmothers. It'll take a long time to go through all of the illegals, then figure out who did'nt report. While the agents are busy with 100,000 illegals who reported out-of-status, the two real terrorists with a Grail are pulling their car over under the flight path of Houston International or Hobby Airport.

Allen Foote
12-20-2002, 05:57 PM
Interesting Jim....remember Mousoui? The attempted terrorist with tennis shoes filled with plastic explosives? Links to Al Quaada? He was foiled when fellow passangers took it upon themselves to STOP HIM FROM IGNITING HIS SHOES! His plan was initially considered a "Bevis & Buttheaded attempt". They are exactly the ones needing to be caught.

ishmael
12-20-2002, 06:01 PM
Stan,

Why haven't we a need to know? You are correct, all we have at this point is one report. We have no certain knowledge of these detainees immigration status, nor why they are being held.

I would like to know more before assuming they should be held, or deported, or anything else.

And to say, as Allen does, that Muslims attempting to emigrate here should "kiss our ass" is just repugnant. Given the countries current porous border with Mexico, along with some of the other policies that encourage immigration from the third world whilst discouraging it from the industrialized nations, it is understandable, but still repugnant.

By the way, recent rumblings from the Whitehouse indicate the GW may be getting ready to declare an amnesty for illegal Mexicans AND begin sending Social Security monies to Mexicans who work here part time, but live in Mexico. How's a Texican, and a staunch Republican feel about that? HMMM? (As Rush would say) :D .

Jack

P.S. Here's a link to the SS story.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9342-2002Dec18.html

[ 12-20-2002, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Allen Foote
12-20-2002, 06:10 PM
EVERY immigrant, wiether legal or illegal, should be GRATEFUL to be in this country wiether for a day or a lifetime. Shame on you for suggesting that they have some "right" to be here. Your mentality is of the type that created the inept INS. As far as Mexicans recieving SS payments....We should not allow thier trucks in and don't....do you really thing Gpa & Gma want thier SS $ going south? Its seen more as a ploy by the Democrat controled media to shake up the citizenry. YAWN Remember the cold shoulder given President Foxx following 911? I don't think its warmed up THAT much.

Greg H
12-20-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Allen Foote:
This should only be the "land of the free" for AMERICANS! Let the other bastards GO HOME! So you're advocating that all us white folks leave, so the Indians can have their country back, eh.

Sounds fair

What's a birkenstock?

[ 12-20-2002, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Greg H ]

Allen Foote
12-20-2002, 06:15 PM
Greg....so original. No really, I've only seen that posted 5 or 6 times before. Didn't you get a college education? Yeppers! Round up all those illegals...ESSPECIALLY Muslims and any one supportive of Jihad, and get them the H**L out of this country. Hows that for racial profiling! Of course Greg......you'd have us giving them shelter and $ and a free education. Keep them nice and save so they can plan terrorist plots uninterrupted.

Greg H
12-20-2002, 06:24 PM
I would prefer if the Gov. would follow it's own rules and regulations. To fully fund the INS, Hire enough people to do the job, replace it's outdated computer system, fire the useless employees, and re write the regulations so they were not contradictory.

You can't expect laws to be enforced if no means are provided to do so.

And you did not answer my question. Just who do you think has the right to be here, Footsy

Memphis Mike
12-20-2002, 06:37 PM
Posted by Jack:

"By the way, recent rumblings from the Whitehouse indicate the GW may be getting ready to declare an amnesty for illegal Mexicans AND begin sending Social Security monies to Mexicans who work here part time, but live in Mexico. How's a Texican, and a staunch Republican feel about that? HMMM? (As Rush would say) ."

Jack

It's nothing but another move by Dubya to
further the efforts of the wealthy at filling
their own pockets. Welcome back to the Reagen years.

The Muslims I know are here because they
had to flee the persecution they were
experiencing in their own countries.

Oh, and Foot, you sure are a miserable nasty
bastard aren't ya? :D

[ 12-20-2002, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Memphis Mike ]

ishmael
12-20-2002, 06:44 PM
Mike,

You're gonna have to fill in the blanks a bit. How is making several million illegal immigrants, centered in southern California and Texas, along with their nuclear families still in Mexico, American citizens going to enrich Dubya's cronies?

Jack

Greg H
12-20-2002, 06:48 PM
Cheap labor.

ishmael
12-20-2002, 06:52 PM
Seems to me they are cheaper just the way they are.

Memphis Mike
12-20-2002, 06:55 PM
Thanks Greg. Some folks have never seen a
factory full of illegals. I've seen them.
I've also seen them when they got a tip the
INS was gonna show up. I was also there when
the INS showed up. Sure is "funny" how an
operation can cut it's workforce by 3/4
overnight and then reinstitute all of those
workers the next day.

[ 12-20-2002, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Memphis Mike ]

ishmael
12-20-2002, 07:21 PM
You guys aren't making sense. If the incentive were the cheapest possible labor, illegals would be the way to go. What am I missing?

Nicholas Carey
12-20-2002, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by JimHillman:
I want agents out in the field actively looking for terorists, not booking 16yr olds, pregnant moms and grandmothers. It'll take a long time to go through all of the illegals, then figure out who did'nt report. While the agents are busy with 100,000 illegals who reported out-of-status, the two real terrorists with a Grail are pulling their car over under the flight path of Houston International or Hobby Airport.One other note re: the japanese internment during the 2nd World War. There we no persons of Japanese descent ever arrested for spying for Japan. One elderly Japanese man was arrested for sabotage, though. His crime? The government wouldn't let him harvest his strawberries before being shipped off to the concentration camp, so he plowed the field under. The government determined that strawberries were an essential war materiel, and as such, he was guilty of sabotage. A little dubious.

There were however, 18 caucasians convicted of spying for Japan.

Was the internment either needed or effective? The evidence suggest not -- and that the people responsible for it knew that at the time.

Barry
12-20-2002, 08:07 PM
First They Came for the Jews
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller
Ya Folla!

Memphis Mike
12-20-2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by ishmael:
You guys aren't making sense. If the incentive were the cheapest possible labor, illegals would be the way to go. What am I missing?:confused: You don't get it Jack. Illegals
are the way to go. Dubya is doing everything
he can to minimize labor costs in this country.
INCLUDING providing incentives for illegals
to stay here. They work dirt cheap and it will
take them a LONG time to move up the ladder.
In the mean time the operators will reap the
benefits of this cheap labor. Everyone will
get rich except the common American laborer.

It's basic republican agenda 101. The rich get
richer and the poor get poorer. Go study your
freshman class Econ book. It's in there. The
system of this country is based on greed as
is any other capitalistic system. Black and
Decker just moved to Mexico following a host
of other companies. I wonder why?

Trickle down...... A thousand points of light.

[ 12-20-2002, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Memphis Mike ]

ishmael
12-20-2002, 08:40 PM
Mike,

The proposed amnesty, as I understand it, would grant legal residency and hence make them defacto citizens. No longer illegal.

If one were out to exploit these workers, wouldn't it be more adventageous to keep them in the shadows? "Legal residency" is like a learner's permit. It makes the individual subject to all the laws and grants all rights of a citizen.

[ 12-20-2002, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Memphis Mike
12-20-2002, 08:59 PM
Maybe you don't understand their desparation.
They would still work dirt cheap. And for a
long period of time.

ishmael
12-20-2002, 09:06 PM
Mike,

Their straights in life are not the point. You were arguing that GW was granting amnesty in order to keep a ready, poor pool of Mexican immigrants in order to feed the evil captains of industry's and agriculture's machines. The simple fact is that amnesty makes these men and women less subject to the whims of those who would exploit them, and more subject to the rule of law.

Why don't you just admit that your argument was flawed, and that maybe not all President Bush does fits into your framework for him?

[ 12-20-2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Memphis Mike
12-20-2002, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by ishmael:
Mike,

The proposed amnesty, as I understand it, would grant legal residency and hence make them defacto citizens. No longer illegal.

If one were out to exploit these workers, wouldn't it be more adventageous to keep them in the shadows? "Legal residency" is like a learner's permit. It makes the individual subject to all the laws and grants all rights of a citizen.It will take them a long time to achieve
"legal residency." They will still have to
undergo the process of becoming an American
citizen which is marred in red tape.

How do I know? All I have to do is consult
my Brother in Law who has been trying to become a
legal citizen of this country for the last ten years. A great guy, BTW.

ishmael
12-20-2002, 09:12 PM
It will take them a long time to achieve
"legal residency." You're still missing it. Amnesty would make them legal residents at the stroke of a pen. Citizenship, for any who wish it, would follow.

All of this as I understand it mind you. I could be wrong, but that is what is being reported.

[ 12-20-2002, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Memphis Mike
12-20-2002, 09:16 PM
I see you edited your last post Jack.
Ya see buddy, I've heard first hand of
the nightmares encountered that come as a result
of trying to become a legal citizen of
this country.

Memphis Mike
12-20-2002, 09:18 PM
Your basing your statements on "what is
reported" and not on what you know to be a
fact.

ishmael
12-20-2002, 09:23 PM
You're right Mike, I can't climb inside George Bush's head and know whether he will take pen in hand and sign the proposed amnesty. But said amnesty is proposed. And indications are that the President will sign it.

NormMessinger
12-20-2002, 09:34 PM
Well, I submit that it has more to do with currying the hispanic vote than anything else.

--Norm

Memphis Mike
12-20-2002, 09:42 PM
Jack, there is a great big world out there! smile.gif
Merry Christmas.

[ 12-20-2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Memphis Mike ]

ishmael
12-20-2002, 09:42 PM
BINGO! Norm

[ 12-20-2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

ishmael
12-20-2002, 09:59 PM
There is a sometimes entertaining, often obnoxious, loud-mouthed talk show host named Michael Savage who said something the other day that stuck.

"The definition of a country is, language, borders, and culture." Now you may agree or disagree whether a country is a good thing or not, but he's correct. Without all three, impressed in some way on all the inhabitants, you haven't a nation. Even in polyglot nations like Canada, with its French separatists, the business of the nation, the commerce, the government, happens, for the most part, in English.

Right now our southern border is a seive, and parts of southern Cal might as well be Mexico, re both culture and language.

Again, I leave it to you whether nationhood is a good thing or a bad one, but we are in the process of loosing some of these definitions.

Shang
12-21-2002, 01:19 AM
"...It's also possible that the Feds know something about California right now that they wish to not share at the moment..." --stanvee

Oh, like what?
Com'on now, Feds, you can trust us registered voters...
Just whisper it in our ears, we won't breath a word to Osama.

"...Whatever the reason, you and I don't have the need to know...." --stanvee

Augh, com'on...we wanta know....

...It's got somethin' to do with a government, "of the people, for the people, by the people," remember?

Meerkat
12-21-2002, 01:33 AM
The other day there was an announcement by the gov't that they where taking away 800,000+ acre feet of Colorado River water away from California because they "used too much". Direct impact on agriculture and thus the state's major power base. Now rounding up alleged law abiding aliens in Los Angeles... surely the republicans are not so petty as to use the so called war on terror as an excuse to get back at California for being a democrat state? Surely not!?!

ACB
12-21-2002, 04:12 AM
Well, you will all be able to sleep safer in your beds, because the INS is hard at work on your behalf. The other day they prevented the crew of a ship that I happen to know well from going ashore in the States. These dangerous terrorists were British, Australian, New Zealanders and Filipinos. All of whom...

...were regular employees of the ship's owners
...had been to the States many times before.
...are English speaking Christians
...are citizens of nations allied to the USA.

ishmael
12-21-2002, 09:07 AM
Ooh thanks Andrew, I'm going to get the first good nights sleep since 9/11 because of your post.

This should be added to the big government=bad government sentiments on another thread. It seems the way large organizations, in general, work. They percolate along for years with everyone fat and sassy...something big happens to stir them...they take wacky actions dictated by some out of touch commitee somewhere, which has little to do with actually fixing ANYTHING. Oh, and when it doesn't work out they spend inordinate amounts of time covering their ass.

Yep sounds right to me.

Jack

Matt J.
12-21-2002, 09:27 AM
Mike,
I just read the second page of this thread. It's too opininated to spend more time on, but I have a question, and of course it's loaded:

Do you think the people in the factories, who are here illegally, being treated as you describe, and all by choice, should be granted amnesty and the opportunity to become citizens of the country in which you and I live, or not?

Please, just a simple answer. Personally, I don't.

-Matt

Memphis Mike
12-21-2002, 09:34 AM
Yes I do but I also believe they should
be treated as equals and not exploited
because of their poverty stricken situations.

ishmael
12-21-2002, 09:48 AM
Borders, language, culture. Is this a nation?

Let those who want to come here go through the process. I'm against an amnesty. It is, as Norm points out, a political ploy to curry the Hispanic vote.

LET'S GET CONTROL OF OUR BORDERS AGAIN. What is wrong with that? Pray tell, what is wrong with a country protecting its borders?

And I don't understand Mexico, but why is the border such a demarcation...poverty to relative wealth? It must have to do with politics, eh?

Greg H
12-21-2002, 10:29 AM
The immigration process is a nightmare. Michelle had to help one of the employees through it. Ten years latter, he is a citizen. His wife, father and son are now permanent residents (with jobs). He now owns a house,new car,new truck, he also works full time, plus he has a part time busisness of his own. and he sends money back home to his extended family.
Not bad, eh.

He started as an illegal from one of the central American countries we had a hand in disrupting. Recieved amnesty in the '80s and took it from there with help from (some of us liberals ;) and succeded, despite the bureaucracy.
...but what a pain the ins is.

ishmael
12-21-2002, 10:36 AM
Okay, but instead of making a mockery of our border, let's make the INS work! What is wrong with it? It's run by a bunch of career beaureaucrats who wouldn't know good process and procedure if it bit them on the ankle. Throw in mixed signals, lack of proper funding and oversight, and you have a disaster.

Clarity!

I've not kept up on this stuff. It seems a huge mess.

[ 12-21-2002, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Matt J.
12-21-2002, 10:47 AM
Mike,
I respect your opinion, and I have some knowledge through a very good friend of mine who has family in the citizen / non-citizen circle right now. If you think granting them amnesty is a good thing, then why do you protest GW's doing it? Why the conspiracy theories? He's doing something you want done, but you complain that he must be doing for the wrong reasons? Really, Mike, who cares what his reason is if he's doing the right thing as you see it? That's what I would term looking a gift horse in the mouth. Or confusing your distaste for our president with your judgment of his actions.

I think if someone is here, illegally, working for money that doesn't get taxed, whether it's alot or a little, and they don't like the treatment they receive, then they can get the heck out of this country. Is that based upon the fact that I don't even double the money Uncle Sam takes from me every year? You're damn right it is. Those IA's demand rights when it matters (hospitals, schools, due process), but they don't pay taxes to pay for the services - I do. Uncle Sam actually makes more than half of what I take home on my labor. Then people insist we provide more services for the financially challenged (is that PC enough ;) ?).

It's one thing, and bad enough, to demand that I pay for schools and welfare for people who at least play by the rules and pay some taxes, but to demand that I support people here illegally? Take some of the money we spend on education and medical treatment for illegals and put it into the INS. My best friend's parents are from outside our borders. They moved here, became citizens, and bust their butts. They ask no favors, and have (my friend and his father both) served in our military. Those are people who have a right to ask for assistance when they need it. Not the ones who I see at the bridge sneaing to another farm for cheap labor having children to force citizenship on us.

I must be at work on a Saturday to be this grumpy, :rolleyes: . :D Let me check... yep, I am.
Gotta replace some of Uncy Sam's thievery.

-Matt

[ 12-21-2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Matt Joyce ]

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-21-2002, 11:19 AM
I must admit by reading some of the posts here that my belief that rascism and prejudice was fading in the USA has been shaken. Yoicks, I have never met people who think like that. I definite can see going to war against people who think that racial profiling and persecution is a good thing.

Matt J.
12-21-2002, 11:33 AM
Peter, please clarify. The position of your post immediately after mine is either poor coincidence or strange interpretation.

Just in case. I'm no racist, bigot, or whatever un-PC label may get thrown around. I don't understand how (anyone, not just me) saying that we would like to enforce our borders would label one as a racist. Racial profiling is a sticky issue, not one I'm willing to engage. I'm sorry to hear there's a Canadian sitting up north and watching for reasons whether or not to pass judgement on me and my counrty. Rather pompous, I would like to say, if I were looking for argument. (Please beleive me, I'm not). Would be rather like me sitting down here and thinking all Canadians are... well. I'm not going to go there. Please rethink your position of sitting up north passive and labeling the US as racists.

And please help with this: "I definite can see going to war against people who think that racial profiling and persecution is a good thing." Care to expand that?

-Matt

[ 12-21-2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Matt Joyce ]

Memphis Mike
12-21-2002, 11:42 AM
Maybe I've become too cynical but maybe
not. I think GWB is doing this for all
the wrong reasons. Everything I read in
the paper and hear on the news suggests
his administration supports the wealthy only.

I will always believe republicans are the
party of the wealthy until I see something
different.

I don't think they give a rat's ass about
illegals or anyone else who isn't in their
income bracket.

What's this deal about the head of CSX being
appointed a major position in the Bush
administration. I don't remember the details
off hand but I think he favors placing caps
on pension funds when his own was increased
to 44 years of service when he only has 25.
This is someone who can afford to save for his
own damn retirement.

This is off topic but just another example of
our republican government at work.

Place the money in the hands of the operators
and it will "trickle down."

This is the worst adminstration we've had in this
country in a hell of a long time.

It will take a long time to repair the damage
after they're gone.

Matt J.
12-21-2002, 11:57 AM
I must be feeling frisky today - or I really don't want to be at work.

Mike, the only damage you've pointed out is possibly providing amnesty for illegals - as you say you'd like. That and giving us tax rebates -before you pull out the advance v rebate argument, they are rebates, according to a CPA neighbor, (mine paid creditors, what'd you do wth yours?).

Stop complaining about why he did it. You think it will do good things for your reasons. Who cares if "he" thinks it will do good things for "his" reasons also?

And the "party of the wealthy?" C'mon Mike. Some people have earned money in their lives - but there's better things to hold against someone than success. If Jenny and I pull out of our debts and financial problems, will you no longer like me? Or think my opinions area automatically wrong. Have you considered that perhaps my job is something I don't enjoy but, while hopefully providing financial comfort someday, it's something I'm willing to tolerate? So I may be hard working, and ambitious. Would you think my ambitions would make me an evil, class-warfare person?

Get to go home soon. Have a good weekend, all.

-Matt

Memphis Mike
12-21-2002, 12:12 PM
I'm outa this discussion for awhile. It's
a beautiful day outside. I'm going to go enjoy
it.

PS, as I said, nothing can change my mind about
GWB and his band of leftovers from days gone
by.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-21-2002, 12:29 PM
Actually Matt, I was not referring to you in regards to rascist remarks. There were, earlier posts some pretty harsh statements made about "other" people than "americans" ... And my expansion on the last part of the post would be that I think it would be dangerous for the US to pursue what I consider hatemongering against any particular religion or race. Certainly, that would be a way to make enemies out of friends, let alone stirring your opponents to harsher action. I am not afraid to fight for my country, or my beliefs, but I try not to impose my beliefs on others.

Matt J.
12-21-2002, 04:38 PM
Peter,
1. glad to hear it.
2. I agree we should be careful when walking the line of aggressive defense and forcing our views on oters.

3. Have a good weekend. smile.gif

-Matt