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John R Smith
10-30-2001, 10:28 AM
When a Forum Gets Stale

Well, it's bound to happen eventually. After all, there are only so many riveting threads you can have about CPES. Or which varnish is the hot number this season. In the end, the same old guys end up saying the same old thing about the same old topic.

And then, because folks get a little bored with this, they start talking about other stuff instead. At first, this is fine. There's wacky stuff about potato guns, or hot-rods, or missiles to zap jet-skis. A lot of it hilarious and great fun. A kind of off-beat humour becomes the Forum's trade-mark. The topics about boats actually benefit from a real sense of community.

But sadly, this doesn't last. New members arrive who take this diversity to mean that anything goes. They start posting topics which are purely political, philosophical, or whatever. Often these are interesting and on the face of it add a new dimension to the Forum, but they pose a real dilemma for many. Because the views expressed are predominantly American in topic and opinion, they often alienate those unable to share them. The boats united a broad spectrum of contributors - the politics tend to divide.

World events, inevitably, spill over into the Forum. Passions are roused, tempers flare, and things are said in the heat of the moment which many later regret. This encourages a few, who have no interest in boats but only a destructive intent, to post inflammatory and provocative posts often laced with foul language. Many gentler souls, saddened and confused by the spectacle, drift away, not to return.

Now then, this matters. Because at its best, the Forum has been not just special, but unique. We have had a plethora of top-class international contributors, giving us articles and features on boat-building, repairs, restoration, cruising, maritime literature, history and art, often with photographs and drawings. All for free, because they enjoyed being here and the company they kept. It's been like having a great magazine delivered every day of the week.

Only, unlike a paper magazine, there has been no editorial control. Where many other forums are pretty strictly moderated, this one has been largely self-regulating. That can work, as we have seen, quite well, until regulation becomes overwhelmed by polarised political passion, or ignored in a terrorist attack by outsiders who have no interest in the traditions or values of the group.

So how can we turn this around? To refresh that which has become stale, we must encourage new blood. We need new members, irrespective of age, gender, nationality or creed, from all over the world. When they ask the same old questions about their garboards they will be new questions to our new members. The old hands can make the most of the opportunity, to give them the benefit of their advice yet again. We must cherish our existing contributors and value their sterling work, because their input is new and fresh. And our hosts must moderate the Forum more robustly and to greater effect, by setting stricter guidelines and enforcing them.

We need more contributors like Andreas, Rory, Noah and Corey (remember him?). Young folks who are the future for wooden boats and boatbuilding. And we need the gentler souls like Barbara and my own Kate who have much to offer. I want to be able to recommend the Forum unreservedly to my friends and their children, not to have to think about it first.

So the Forum must consider how it presents itself and appears to the outside world, as new visitors click on "Miscellaneous". In this we all have a duty and a responsibility to the future.

If the foregoing has come across as a lecture, or a sermon, or just plain sanctimonious, my apologies. It was not intended so http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif You know that I have always enjoyed a bit of fun. And I certainly can't set myself up as an arbiter or judge of standards. It is, I think, for all of you, collectively, to do that.

John

nedL
10-30-2001, 10:33 AM
I thought that I would try to do my part if people don't mind looking at & commenting about never before seen pictures. Now that I am able to post pictures again maybe I can add some "food for fodder" of the visual kind. - Ned

JDD
10-30-2001, 10:47 AM
Well John I was asked to post a reply. This is a wife to a sometimes contributor but mostly a lurker. Someone has to do the housework and cook and clean while you meatheads are punching out the keyboard.
Now what can I tell you about would be making chicken and pastry, homemade spagetti, Thankgiving sweet potato casserole, oyster stew, homemade crab cakes with all crab in it,cleaning agents for the scum in the tub, and fabric softners for different times of the year.
I would call that Misc.

Alan D. Hyde
10-30-2001, 10:48 AM
Well said, John.

Without civility of discourse, many of the best qualities of this Forum will be lost.

If we can express ourselves so that our spouses, or our young sons or daughters, can happily read what we have said, then we have done what, in my view, we ought to have done.

Our words, remember, may linger in cyberspace long after ourselves have gone.

With our words, as with our boats, let us build so we can look at the results of our labors with justified pride. Otherwise, why bother?

Alan

cs
10-30-2001, 10:54 AM
Good morning John.

I think and beleive that you are correct. I, myself will sometimes post stuff off topic, and I beleive that this is okay. I do try to keep in mind that this is a boat forum and it never hurts to interject other topics every now and than. Just so long as the other topics don't take over and turn this into "The Everything but Wooden Boats .com"

I would like to encourge new folks to ask questions and some of you long time posters to answer. Me, I'm kinda in the middle and like to give advice if I feel qualified. It does get dis-heartning (sp) to see so many boat releated post get little or no attention while "Global Warming" soars to over 11 pages long.

As far as the flame throwing foul mouthed post I tend to quit reading them when that starts. I don't have a problem with cursing (remeber I'm a soldier and have perfected it), but this is not the place. A little common sense needs to be used before firing off a post.

I can understand how some of these post can allinate non US citizens. We here in the US takes our rights and freedoms seriously and sometimes lets this cloud our thinking. I for one don't care what anyone's religous or politcal beleifs are. I don't take that into consideration when reading their advice or asking their opinion. I do care though if the know which end of the boat is the front. If they don't know we can educate them.

While we are at John I sure could use some more post on the adventures of Lulu or maybe some of those pretty watercolors or something about your guitars. I've just had to put my mom in a retirement home and I need stuff to distract and relax.

Chad

NormMessinger
10-30-2001, 10:55 AM
Very well expressed John. Thank you.

Scott, how about one more section? Call it The Lounge. Move any thread that is not boat related into the lounge. Trouble is, that's work for you. How would it work if you allowed anyone to move a thread to the lounge? Or, perhaps some few of us who might be willing to do so. Oh, dear things start to get complicated don't things.

--Norm

Wild Dingo
10-30-2001, 11:11 AM
Thanks John

My thoughts exactly... I was thinking of moving on today as I had begun to feel that maybe its not the place I first thought... but with comments such as yours I remain... albeit a bit more conservative and cautious in my postings and more time shall be spent in other areas of the forum.

If I could figure how to post pictures I would also attempt to find a fat bellied pooch and toss him in a wooden boat out on the estuary and take a happy snappy while hes grinning with a hat and sunnies on Ned!! Thats a great pic mate http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

errrrrr whats the question Jeff??? ohhh never mind I second it!!! why? cause your a nice fella mate! http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

Johns wife... please post your recipe for turkey stuffing and any others and I will try to match it with my roo and emu stew! or goanna and chopped livers of cockatoo and Kookaburra damper nah not really made that one up http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif... but I love a good cook off!!!!! http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

Alan... Until recently I let my kids read the postings here as it gave them an insight into how others lived, thought, pondered expressed themselves and worked their magic on their boats and lives... but in the last week or so I have had cause to stop that... which for one of my kids in particular was cause for sadness as she loved coming here and reading all about how things were going with granpaw Eds church boatshed and mystically moving tree, Uncle Norms next door neighbors daughters building project which she looked at and commented how she thought "I could do that" and along with her brother will begin shortly... Mr Cleek and his ever so nice comments and small contibutions but we both got a heck of a surprise to know how talkative he can be when looking back at the comment about Martha whatsername... and all the other people here...

Something is missing in much of the content... we all know what happened and is happening.

Its become in someways and to some extent downright nasty at times and so Ive taken the dads choice of taking the kids of the forum showing them only the ones I think they would enjoy... a bit of fatherly sensorship...

I concur let us try at least to keep the peace be kind to each other and in our responses realise that we live in different cultures places and environments we have different humours and we have different ways of expressing ourselves... its this that gives the forum its richness and diversity.

Thanks for posting this John.

Take it easy
Shane

ken mcclure
10-30-2001, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by JDD:
...while you meatheads are punching out the keyboard...

I never "punch" the keyboard. Well, almost never. Well, once in a while.

John, you make a point that I myself have been considering for a while now. As a fairly recent member of this group, I think I came in at about the time the Forum was starting to change over to more trivial pursuits. At first I was puzzled but then I became interested.

I have found vast amounts of knowledge and experience here, have found people who have made mistakes for me so that I didn't have to, and have found a group of people whom I wouldn't recognize if I stood next to them yet who are a similar to me as if we were family.

Suddenly the recent terrorist events intruded right in the middle of this evolution of a "technical" forum into a "gather round the woodstove" group. And I was delighted to find that by and large this group, regardless of who they were or where they were from, shared my feelings and fears about the situation.

I think that a large measure of the "drift" that has happened is the result of a combination of outside events along with our desire to "bond." And I don't have a problem with it.

I find several things unique about this group. One is that despite the "drift" of topics, almost all of the fun and oddball stuff happens in the Miscellaneous section. So anyone who doesn't want to participate in that can just skip it. Another is that the group is "self-policing." Other than a few heated discussions, things are kept on an elevated plane.

And whenever I or anyone has a serious boat or boatbuilding question, we can still get immediate good answers.

This Forum has changed from a technical classroom kind of place to a more informal pretzels and beer gathering. I, for one, like the change and look forward to my visits here.

JDD
10-30-2001, 11:37 AM
I will post my secret formulas when I finsh my daily chores around 8 pm. eastern standard time. smiley face however you do it. I see them from time to time but no one will show me how it is done.
I have heard a lot of the same comments about what you guys are talking about. Mainly I think bad language is bad for everyone.
When we lived in the Cheseaeake Bay, all of the crabbers and oystermen would gather on one of the broken down boats for a gathering of the minds, as many have said. If you think a bunch of people have strong ideas here, try sticking your nose in on one of those fixit parties.
I have witnessed engines apart in the middle of the season with not a clue of what was broken when it was done and end up putting a new rebuilt in it that night with a collection from the participating group.
We girls would call it "Kiss and Make up Time" So everyone here gather together next to the monitors and kiss the screen.

Billy Bones
10-30-2001, 11:47 AM
You know I'm with you, John.

I like the idea of 'the lounge', as I've stated exhaustively before, but the idea never seems to get much support from those who'd be most likely to use it/be exiled to it. Still, I strongly feel the need for an off-topic misc section.

And as for missing people, yeah, I miss Corey (remember him) too. Though I also remember that he started a roaring fire with his confederacy thread. Crossing the line is part of the process, it seems.

Seems I've learned that this place is made up of it's contributions. More can be done to steer it by contributing appropriately than by complaining, I guess. I'm also learning that some dogs will always poop on the sidewalk no matter what, and I simply have to learn to avoid stepping in it.

G. Schollmeier
10-30-2001, 11:56 AM
Thanks John!

Alan Peck
10-30-2001, 12:01 PM
I am a relative newcomer to this forum. But, I agree with Norm and Billy, that it would be a good idea to have two miscellaneous sections. One boat related and one non-boat related.

I don't know, but I suspect that the original intent of "miscellaneous" still meant boat related.

Wayne Jeffers
10-30-2001, 12:34 PM
Yes, thanks John. You have eloquently stated much of what I've been thinking.

I admit that I found some of the non-boat posts entertaining for a while, and I contributed to a few.

In the time since a number of individuals have taken up the habit of making posts I find non-constructive or even offensive, I have little interest in contributing to most of the non-boat posts. Scanning the non-boat posts occasionally, I note the absence of participation by a great many (but not all) of the most thoughtful voices from all sides of the political/philosophical spectrum.

Concerning the non-boat topics, it appears many of us are voting with our feet.

Wayne

Matt J.
10-30-2001, 12:59 PM
John,
You're a class act all the way. I've been thinking about the same thing recently; that is, why is it that the forum has such a cloud over it lately? I decided not to bring it up again since I think it bothered some people - whom I didn't intend to bother - to hear me criticize the way things are going, and, more importantly, because I haven't anything like the artistry you do with words. So I figured I keep my mouth shut and perhaps not visit as often. Certainly not to Misc.

My take:
I know the September 11th attack has thrown us into a new war, but must it be debated here? I like off-boat topics occasionally, but I think a firm line must be drawn between off-boat topics, and off-boat debates. When Jenny and I were near losing our Lady(bug) I posted here my fears and was comforted by all the warm thoughts from this community. Then we lost her http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/frown.gif and you all were once again quite kind. When I had an exceptionally bad experience at a meeting, I posted here for thoughts from you fine people. I haven't a single problem with thoughtful off-boat topics. I do not like the debates started - they serve only to air our emotions and drive a large wedge between us. I went to lunch today thinking that there seem to be so many people who post dribble who perhaps have only a passing interest in boats. Why then must they use the forum to take out their frustrations and political hatchets?

My conclusion?
We're perhaps not capable of sustaining a consistent self-policing of topics and therefore I was wrong in my previous posts about this problem. I have said (perhaps too often for some here) that I think we should police ourselves and TRY to avoid debatable off-boat topics or those which will divide. Boat-topics which provide debate are useful and necessary to this forum (e.g. CPES yes or no?; what kind of boat?; what kind of materials; methods?). I had said or implied that Scot should use his editing only very carefully, that we can handle it, but that we must be careful ourselves. I know believe that the kind folks at WB must delineate a finer spectrum f what's aloud. Better criteria to judge topics on. Perhaps if a topic becomes an argument or in some way (based upon criteria agreeable to everyone) offensive, then it should be pulled, no questions asked. I do not think a "lounge" is a good idea. I think that's what Misc. is for. Miscellaneous has been abused and overwhelmed by non-boat crud. I think that Mrs JDD's recipes and thoughts are great for Misc - they are NOT debate topics.

Thanks, John, for posting your opinion. It is so much more refined and better worded than mine. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

Ps. Mrs JDD, a smiley is a colon plus a right parenthesis (i.e. : and ) = http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif ) but right next to one another. See FAQ for more smilies often used.

[This message has been edited by Emerson (edited 10-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Emerson (edited 10-30-2001).]

Ed Harrow
10-30-2001, 01:04 PM
Thank you John, very eloquent, more so than usual.

With freedom comes responsibility -

WoodenBoat has granted us much freedom in their space - let's all of us be personally responsible in our use of it, I'd like to hope that isn't too much to ask, tho it certainly has been to much to ask, lately...

As for we participants, well I guess the WBF is kinda like a river, some watch it pass by, some hop in and join for a while, but either find a comfy sandbar or perhaps get caught on a snag. If one notes another's absence, sending them a brief email might just be the neighborly thing to do.

John, thank you, again.

Paul Brooks
10-30-2001, 01:19 PM
Yes John
I was thinking of moving on too. In the past I've much enjoyed the diverse opinions, but I can't be doing with the abusive language and intolerance that seems to have become more frequent.

I think that more obvious guidelines on etiquette would be appropriate - the usual things - no profanities, respect for others, no "shouting" etc. These should be clear when you join and that you sign up for them in the same way you accept conditions of sale on a retailers web site.
Best regards
Paul

Smacksman
10-30-2001, 01:40 PM
JJD, I kissed my monitor like you asked but the taste was awful http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/wink.gif
Of the few forums i read, this is by far the best. Even with a few rough edges of late in the Misc - and ONLY in the Misc section - it is still the best.
I'm very impressed with the way you guys steer the paranoid back to earth when the heat is on. Self regulating seems to work on the whole.
I'm one who rarely posts a message, especially in the Misc. section, usually because someone else has already voiced my opinion far more eloquently than i can. But I do read a lot of the posts.
I must admit, the Misc. section is the last I go to, if I have time. The other sections are about boats which is why I'm here.
So keep up the good work - there is something for everyone here.
Roger
ps. Winter is starting tomorrow in the UK

Andrew
10-30-2001, 02:09 PM
Ah, the Great Debate Debate.

Bruce Hooke
10-30-2001, 02:15 PM
Many thanks John. I wonder if this doesn't in part come down to the old rule about conversation in polite company, which was to avoid politics and religion. The broader concept behind thus rule is, I think, to avoid topics that hit too close to people's identities. If someone doesn't like my boatbuilding techniques I can live with that, but if it comes out that someone doesn't like what I believe in it is much harder for me to feel comfortable with that person in the future.

That said, I lean towards the self-censorship approach (along with clear topic descriptions! http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/wink.gif ). At this point I simply avoid the political threads and if more and more people do that the political threads will die (or we will end up with, in effect, two forums in one place, which might be OK too).

It may be worth remembering, as well, that for the many of the people on this forum we are quickly approaching the low ebb of the boating year, so some fall off in boat topics should not be that surprising...

dasboat
10-30-2001, 03:00 PM
Missed you John!
I still look forward to tails of LULU and that "cat who ate the canary"grin of yours.
In a way it is the perserverance(sp)of those who stay and post that steers this forum back on track.
Having you back is good. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

rbgarr
10-30-2001, 03:58 PM
John-

First of all, thanks for your clear topic description. I skip most Miscellaneous topics if they aren't clear about what the topic is, especially if it doesn't seem boat related. IMO, many of the topic descriptions are 'too clever by half' and an attempt to feed the writer's own ego ("Let's see how many people will bite on this one!").

Regarding the boat related topics on the Forum, I agree that there isn't much more to be said about CPES or varnish once you've done a search, but that may be one of the WBF's strengths. My sense is that when the Forum started, there was a reservoir of subscribers/wooden boat people who had wanted to have some avenue to communicate through for years. I know that whenever I read a new WB issue I find myself agreeing/exclaiming/wondering about the things I see and read, and find the letters to the editors to be the most immediate and interesting. In that way, I've viewed the WBF as a real-time 'Letter to the Editor' vehicle for communicating with other like-minded souls. Looking back on my contributions, I feel like I've just about 'shot my bolt' as far as useful, experienced-based things to say is concerned.

Fortunately for newcomers, they can search for topics they have questions about, and I want to believe that that's what they are doing, and benefiting from it.

I would like to see WB run an update article on the Forum. I'd be very interested to see what our sponsors think of what's been going on here for the past few years, and I wonder if some subscribers who aren't aware of it might join in.

[This message has been edited by rbgarr (edited 10-30-2001).]

Bob Cleek
10-30-2001, 04:26 PM
This was another of those Miscellaneous posts that I almost didn't bother to read,(Can you say "Global Warming?") but since it was from Brother Smith, I decided to dedicate a few moments to its download.

So, shall I philosophize?

The forum situation is pretty much like a yacht club bar. After you get to know the regulars, you find your friendships (if the emphemeral contact of the internet can be called that) open doors to other common interests. The talk diversifies. Thank God nobody's started talking football, eh?

The way I deal with it is as follows... for what it is worth. If a topic looks interesting, I check it out. If I feel moved, which is totally an impulse sort of thing, I might post. If it is a "rant" topic, I rarely get engaged in it again. The next day, like as not, I will find my head in a different space. Mostly, I get bored with the religion and politics threads. If I post there, it is only to exercise my own emotions, selfish of me, but screw 'em!

Now, as for the meat of it... if a boat topic looks like it is interesting, I post if I can be helpful. Sometimes I post just because I am a smart ass... but so what? I used to spend a lot of time trying to save idiots from themselves, but these days, I've matured. If somebody wants to build the Queen Mary out of Home Depot chipboard, and is just inviting an argument, I could care less. If, on the other hand, somebody seems genuinely interested in an answer that I feel might be helpful to them, I give it a shot. Now that the forum has a "history," that may involve only suggesting they check out the search engine. I figure in that way I "pay my way" in here by contributing something useful on occasion.

Now, some may remember in the old days before we were "discovered" by the great unwashed, that you could actually read every post each day. I sure wasted a lot of time gamming back then. It can get addictive. Now, I just check it out, get my "maintenance dose" and go back to whatever reality I have to deal with.

It seems others have found that the forum serves their needs in ways unique to them. Some have found it an avenue to express strong feelings and interests and to test the waters arguing over this and that. If it works for them, wonderful!

Point is, the forum can be whatever you want it to be. If some thread is riddled with bull**** and a lot of infantile posturing by room temperature IQ's, just don't bother pulling it up. It will die off soon enough, or it will keep running for the benefit of whomever is into it. No skin off of anybody's nose.

I tell you one thing, though. I really feel that if some form of political correctness were imposed, such as limiting the talk to boats only, this forum would wither and die in short order. Just take a look at the other boatbuilding forums on the net... BORING! Why? Generally because they are all run by some fascist moderator who cannot help pushing their own agenda. I say, "Let 'er rip!" It is easy enough to separate the fly **** from the pepper in here!

JDD
10-30-2001, 04:31 PM
I AM MAD ABOUT THIS THREAD. Now all I hear is old man get off the computer so I can talk to my friends. Quote: "You always told me that the most conversation on that WBF was a bunch of retired new englanders that had nothing to do all day when their wives are at bridge club and bridal showers so they chat. Today I find out differntly.These guys today treated me with a great deal of respect but you always told me a woman would never fit in here"

Okay guys time to sell your boats and help with the alimony payments.

ken mcclure
10-30-2001, 05:21 PM
JDD, we only show you respect because we don't know you. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

Cleek said what I wish I woulda. Again.

brad9798
10-30-2001, 05:42 PM
Yea--I used to learn quite a bit from this forum ... now, I stop by mostly for entertainment value.

Sure, I'll reply with my own take on things in the Misc. forum; however, this was once a place where I learned (building/repair forum, especially).

I'd also recommend that people use the search option ... my gosh--how many CPES and painting topics are really necessary http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/wink.gif

Seriously though, I no longer find a lot of things to learn here ...

The honeymoon is over ... I guess.

Brad

JDD
10-30-2001, 07:32 PM
Well I made the drinks tonight so I will be able to use the computer so I will share the oyster casserole with you kind people.
1pt. oysters
4oz.can mushrooms3
3/4cup of half and half cream
1 sleeve of saltine crackers
Put half oysters not drained in small casserole dish,
crush half sleeve of crackers ,enough to cover oysters
sautee mushrooms in butter and place on top of saltines
repeat oysters and saltines
Dot with butter and lots of pepper
Can be made the day before and refrigerated
When time to cook, preheat oven 350degree
pour half and half over casserole and bake for thirty minutes.
Serve with turkey.
Enjoy. P.S. when time to retire for the evening, take a nice bath and allow wife to take a nice oil bath and enjoy the evening. You will rest in piece. Tommorrow I will share a new one for your dining pleasure and evening retreat.

Sierrans
10-30-2001, 07:47 PM
I think the forum is alive and healthy. Sure some misc topics get beat into the ground and sometimes the posts take a decidedly nasty turn. But I think in the end this is a forum for people who either know a lot about boats or want to know more about boats. I don't think there are many out there who come here primarily for the political and social dialogue (not that it isn't insightful). I also think everyone is almost always civil and well intentioned.

JDD: not that I don't appreciate the oyster casserole, but I've been in the hunt for a tasty oyster stew and just can't seem to find one. Any suggestions?

JDD
10-30-2001, 08:06 PM
1pt. oysters
4 cups whole milk
three table spoons of butter
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/8 teaspoon of pepper
turn burner on to medium high
In sauce pan melt butter
dump in oysters and their Liquor, not vodka
cook until oysters are plump and edges just begin to curl,
add milk
heat but do not bring to boil
serve with oyster crackers
You can add more salt and pepper to taste.
Keep it simple for enjoyment.

JDD
10-30-2001, 09:22 PM
Clam chowder. Well That is a real delimma for taste buds are so different. But we come from an area that makes clam chowder so bad that if you eat it, your heart will sputter for a day with the grease and fat cells that will flow till you take Ex-Lax and it works.
2 cups of chopped clams
1 half cup of veg.oil
2 large onions chopped
5 potaotes cubed
5 to seven cups of water
salt and pepper to taste
Heat in large pot 1/2 cup of oil
add clams and onions
cover and let stew fried in own juice and hot oil
stir every four to five minutes
when clams begin to stick to pot or fry
add three cups water to cover and bring to slow rolling boil.
cook for half hour
stir every ten minutes
add water as needed to keep clams from sticking.
add potattoes
cook half hour more
add just enough water to give finish product the consistancy of thick soup. Maybe thickened by adding two tsp. corn meal to soup if needed.
Makes six to eight servings.
P.S. Allow one week before any cholesterol blood test for insurance purposes.
When it come to cooking my old man is forty pounds overweight but still GOOD.

John B
10-30-2001, 09:26 PM
I dunno. I've been thinking about this all day. I like the way the threads veer off sometimes and the humour here is priceless. the Yacht club bar analogy.( don't belong to a yacht cub but I know what you mean)

I don't like the flaming and the cursing that has been going on of late .Not that I don't swear , y'understand, it's just about showing respect for people who it does offend. And thats the important factor isn't it. The oft remarked upon civility which is present here ( mostly).

The good will.

This is still a very good place.

NormMessinger
10-30-2001, 10:13 PM
Not many clams or oysters in the Platt. Got any receps with good old Nebraska corn fed red meat?

--Norm

ken mcclure
10-30-2001, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by JDD:
...take a nice bath and allow wife to take a nice oil bath and enjoy the evening. You will rest in piece...

Well now. Unless that was a typo, I think that the level of respect just went either up or down a couple notches depending on how you view it! http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

(grumble...what I get for punching the keyboard)

[This message has been edited by kwmcclure (edited 10-30-2001).]

ken mcclure
10-30-2001, 10:25 PM
Ooooh yeah, Norm. Your post crossed mine so I gotta double post.

1 large lump of beef flank
some garlic
some soy sauce
some oil
some hot mustard sauce (see below)

Marinade the flank in oil, soy and crushed garlic for 24 hours, turning over once.

Cook on the grill to your own taste in "doneness." (medium rare to medium is best)

Slice the beef thinly (no more than 1/8") across the grain and at a sharp angle (45 degrees or so) to the top of the meat so that the slices are roughly twice the width of the thickness of the cut.

Hot Mustard Sauce
some Colman's dry mustard (yellow rectangular can)
some milk
some white pepper

Mix equal parts of mustard powder and milk until smooth. Sprinkle on a little white pepper - more if you like HOT, less if you don't.

Go get a bottle of beer. (Tsing Tao works well, Negro Modello better)

Step 1: Take a piece of beef, dip it in the sauce (SMALL DAB, PLEASE OR YOU'LL HURT YOURSELF).
Step 2: chew.
Step 3: swallow and realize that the world is indeed a good place to be.
Step 4: wash down with a generous swig of the beer.
Step 5: if there's any meat left go back to Step 1. If not, go back to recipe and start over.

Paul Frederiksen
10-30-2001, 10:43 PM
Hey, how 'bout them BEARS, did you see the game this weekend?

Sorry Bob, I just couldn't resist.

On a serious note, why is it that some people seem so intent on dictating what other people may talk about? I just don't get this, especially on a forum where you can choose to read the thread or pass. It is not like you are sitting in the restaruant part of the club and the roudy argument at the bar about politics is intruding on your nice meal. If you don't like a thread or a person's demeanor, just don't read that thread or that person's posts. Why is that so hard? I do it all the time, it works quite well for me.

Is it possible that some people have become a bit possessive of the forum and want to treat it as if it is their own, fashion it in their own liking, dress it up to their standards, and keep the ruffians out?

I have said it before, and I will repeat it here. This is not your forum. It is not my forum either. It belongs to Wooden Boat. They, and only they, have the right and the responsibility to determine what are appropriate categories, and topics for their forum. So far I have known of only a few posts out of hundreds of thousands that they have deemed inappropriate. I think they are doing a fine job.

If you leave, John, I will miss your stories about Lulu, I will not miss your repeated attempts to establish your version of political, or in this case social correctness. Please, stop sniveling.

Art Read
10-31-2001, 01:34 AM
JDD... How 'bout that recipe for all meat crabcakes? I've been out here on the left coast and away from the tidewaters far too long...

B. Burnside
10-31-2001, 01:49 AM
Man, a recipe thread! They sound really good, too.

I would like to weigh in here with my $0.0133 or whatever 2 Canadian cents are worth today.

I too have been saddened and very distressed at the change in tone of the posts here since Sept 11. The intolerance and nastiness is what I find upsetting. This *has* been a diverse Forum, and the diversity, with the underlying sense of mutual respect and community, has been a real treasure to be part of. It has been predominantly US, but there have been many other countries represented too, and I felt the Forum was the richer for that.

I wish we could talk politics with that same respect and diversity. I need, especially Since Sept 11, to speak and think with people who don't see exactly eye-to-eye with me. I need to get down to basic assumptions until I understand their positions and they see my point of view too. We could all expand our understanding that way, and it sure seems we need more understanding now!

Many contributors are taking that position, but there are enough who so quickly get nasty that it is not worth the grief to post.

Barbara

Dave Fleming
10-31-2001, 01:57 AM
Art, so what's the matter with using Dungeness Crab meat or even Snow Crab meat in your crab cakes.
When last in San Francisco I used some fresh local crab in mine and they came out very well. Not quite as flaky crab meat wise but the flavour was just fine.
And you can get crab meat locally in Puget Sound too. The boys had crab pots hanging off the piers in Anacortes every year. It was the tiny shrimp that drove SWIMPAL crazy trying to clean those little buggers!

PatrickWelker
10-31-2001, 02:33 AM
I'm new here. Very new. Actually, I read alot more than I've posted. 4 posts I believe. Under various names. Lost the Passwords Er.. Deleted the Passwords. But I've been on another forum for 4 or 5 years. It started out with a dozen people or so. It's stragely enough called Decoys Lounge. It's had several homes over the years. We're down to about a half dozen. It began on a commercial website for a musician named Robyn Hitchcock, but now is on a different server. The point is, you absolutely need casual conversation to kepp these things going. You'll lose people. We had people complaining to the webmaster about us cause we would not stay on topic. But where are they now? Long gone. The only ones that remain are the casual talkers. It's the evolution of things. Some poeple don't like it, they're the ones who won't stick around anyhow. You can only talk about something so much. If everyone here only talked about wooden boats, it would dry up and blow away. Then when some new wooden boat owner, or prospective owner skas a question, all they get is their echo. Now, how about them Browns!?

If anyone is interested, a chat room is easily set up, and better for casual conversations. No topics, just yapping about anything and everyhting.

Paul Brooks
10-31-2001, 06:03 AM
Paul,
You wrote..."If you don't like a thread or a person's demeanor, just don't read that thread or that person's posts. Why is that so hard?"

Actually, I think it is quite hard. If, in the middle of an interesting subject, somebody goes off the rails swearing or flaming, it spoils the whole thread for me and the whole forum suffers.

If only the loud and the angry get heard, saying the same things and not listening to others - the rest of us go and do something else.

Best
Paul Brooks

John R Smith
10-31-2001, 07:12 AM
Well, I'll just permit myself the luxury of a reply to a few things. You know, I think I probably haven't done myself any favours by presenting a self-image of a bumbling gnome with a pointy head in the past. Funnily enough, everyone gets quite alarmed when you try to make a serious point http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

First off, can I just make it quite clear that I am not in any way suggesting that the Forum should be limited to marine topics. I, like all of you, have always enjoyed the wacky off-beat stuff which we seem to specialise in. General chat is fine by me.

The larger point, of whether a forum like this could survive without general chat, is an interesting one. I don't profess to have an answer, but I suspect it would be a duller place. No, this issue is really about care and respect - caring about other folks' feelings, and respecting their beliefs.

In specific reply to Paul Fredricksen. I am not in any way attempting to "dictate" what people may, or may not, discuss. How could I? This, like all other threads, is a topic for debate, not a dictat.

No, this is not "my" forum. But I am entitled, like everyone else, to a voice within it. And I am not "snivelling". That just strikes me as a cheap shot, if you will forgive me for saying so. This is only my second post on the topic.

It's nice to know that you would miss my contributions (and no, that's not sarcasm - I mean it). But I feel that while you are quite prepared to take what I have to offer, you are not prepared to give something in return. And that's a bit of a one-way trade.

John

JDD
10-31-2001, 07:13 AM
Maryland Style Crab Cakes
1 lb.lump crab meat
1 egg, beaten
1/4 tsp. salt
1 tsp. Old Bay seasoning or a good spicey seasoning
1 tbsp. baking powder
1 tbsp. Parsley Flakes
1 tbsp. Worcestershire Sauce
1 tbsp. Mayonnaise
Small amount of milk
2 slices dried bread crust removed
Break bread into small pieces and moisten with milk. add remaining ingredients. Shape into patties. Broil or fry until golden brown on both sides. Makes 4 servings.
If fry in pan use skin coat of butter or oil to seal outside.

TomRobb
10-31-2001, 08:03 AM
A nice illustration of the sort of stuff going on here that sort of spoils the fun is a flame email I got from John Durpy (Batteau Boy) this morning. He seems to have taken exception to my saying to Shane that he oughtn't worry about "proper English" whatever that is), just check out b.boy's posts. (John objected to the F-word in the fake G-dubbya speech found in the White House dumpster. Too coarse.)
I was going to quote that email here but I suppose that the forum doesn't need more coarse flaming anger. We seem to have plenty of that. OBL seems to be winning this one - he has us at each others' throats.
John Durpy, you're right. I shouldn't have picked on you. Even though your posts are fine examples of the rough offensive language that you object to in others. Oops, there I go again http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by TomRobb (edited 10-31-2001).]

ken mcclure
10-31-2001, 08:27 AM
This oughta "unstale" things a bit...

http://home.adelphia.net/~kwmcclure/images/Bin-Dummy.mpg

[This message has been edited by kwmcclure (edited 10-31-2001).]

Rich VanValkenburg
10-31-2001, 08:34 AM
Anybody keeping a folder of the recipes that make their way in here? I'm sitting here trembling and drooling all over myself. With winter setting in, it's getting time I tried a few new concoctions out on SWMBO again.

Wayne Jeffers
10-31-2001, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by JohnRSmith:

No, this is not "my" forum. But I am entitled, like everyone else, to a voice within it.


Hear! Hear! John.

And if I may say so, yours is one of the more welcome voices on the forum, IMHO.

I suspect I am not alone in the habit of scanning many posts and being somewhat selective in which posts I choose to read thoroughly. There are a number of forumites whose posts I almost always read thoroughly, regardless of the topic, because I expect the posts to be thoughtful, well-written, courteous, tolerant, respectful of others, entertaining, and/or educational.

Inasmuch as the number of threads/posts drifting away from these standards has been on the rise, I welcome your eloquent plea for greater civility.

Wayne

Billy Bones
10-31-2001, 10:24 AM
So many contradictions! Where to begin? Lets start with:



Originally posted by Paul Frederiksen:

... why is it that some people seem so intent on dictating what other people may talk about? ....

If you don't like a thread or a person's demeanor, just don't read that thread or that person's posts. Why is that so hard? I do it all the time, it works quite well for me...

And yet here you are.

Here's another one:


It is not my forum either. It belongs to Wooden Boat. They, and only they, have the right and the responsibility to determine what are appropriate categories, and topics for their forum.


and yet, later in the same post:


Please, stop sniveling.
Sure sounds to me like you're telling someone what you think is appropriate.

I don't get the logic behind this, but I do sense alot of malice pretty close to the surface. I think, Paul, that if you have the audacity to expect more of Lulu's adventures you might show the man, and the rest of us, just a bit of respect. Or failing that, you might use your self-described ability to skip over it, either way leaving the malice elsewhere, thank you.

And on to the point:

To me, the title bar and the big brown logo in the upper left of my screen say 'WoodenBoat Forum' for a reason. I take that reason to be that this is a forum for discussions somehow distantly related to wooden boats. (Hence the name 'Wooden' and 'Boat' and 'Forum', get it?) No one is suggesting policing the forum, as I read it, but most are suggesting that we have a bit of respect for one another. Off topic discussions should be, and often are, presented with a bit of humility since they are tangent to the spirit of the place (referring back to the 'Wooden' and 'Boat' and 'Forum' plastered liberally around the screen.) Therefore, I think it's a pretty good idea to set aside another topic area where called 'the lounge' at Norm's suggestion, for people to talk politics or religion or whatever. This wouldn't be policing the forum, but rather organizing it in such a way as to allow everyone to get the most of what they want from the forum and the least of what they don't, whatever that may be.

Once again, just my $.02

Paul Frederiksen
10-31-2001, 10:51 AM
Some of you are just too thin skinned to handle any controversial or off color topic. We are not five year olds here. A few heated arguments or angry words do not mean the end of the world. By contrast in another culture they are murdering us because we have the freedom to say as we wish.

There are 300 million people in this country. Probably 100 million have some sort of internet or e-mail connection (this may be a little high). There are hundreds of thousands of people interested in wooden boats. I don't think the fear being expressed here is really that the forum will dry up, but rather that it is being over run by "ruffians" of course language and passionate opinions. Obviously you are forgetting our heritage. The old salts of wooden boats are often exactly that. Now I am not an old salt, but if I am standing on the warf and one of them offers his passionate opinion on ...whatever, complete with the "language of the sea". It doesn't bother me.

So here is what it comes down to. I am going to continue to talk about whatever interests me, which includes politics, religion, and sometimes even epoxy. I will do so here on this forum without any regard for the fact that some of you wish I would not do so. If you leave, that is your perogative. If you stay, the same applies. If you insist in trying to control what I say, I will continue to tell you to stuff it. You are out of line to try to control others speach, even on the wooden boat forum.

For those of you who are trying to make the argument that only the loud and angry get heard. I repeat, that is hogwash. There is no fairer form of communication than a forum. No matter how hard one pounds on the keyboard, the letters still come out the same. No matter how loud one screams at the screen, the tiniest voice on the forum still gets the same space. It is impossible to "yell over" another poster. So trying to paint that as what is going on is a gross misrepresentation.

John, yes it is only your second post calling for censorship. By my count that is two too many. And I have noticed that you have not posted much else in the last few months, so percentage-wise it constitutes the majority of what you have said lately.

I don't "expect" stories of Lulu, as another said. I read them when they appear.

Another suggestion. If you want the forum to be the picture of your idillic imagination. Start one of your own. Create it in your own image. By the sound of it there are at least a dozen posters here who would rather go there. Then you will all be happy. Call it John Smith's perfect wooden boat forum, or something.

Me, I like reality, warts and all.

Andrew
10-31-2001, 11:06 AM
I don't believe that JohnR is calling for censorship, just civility.

Wayne Jeffers
10-31-2001, 11:10 AM
No one is calling for censorship. John and others are calling for civility. There are important differences between the two.

Wayne

John of Phoenix
10-31-2001, 11:16 AM
And what's this, "I'll talk about epoxy if I want to!" http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/wink.gif This place is thought provoking, humorous to an exponential level, much cheaper (and better) than therapy, and occasionally crude/rude. An acceptable, if not an excellent, combination, IMHO.

Art Read
10-31-2001, 11:29 AM
Don't missunderstand me, Dave, LOVE Dungeness! (Just wish it had taken me longer to find out I wasn't 'sposed to keep the females...) It's just that eating the local crabs is more like eating a small lobster than a good old, Eastern Shore crab feed. One or two and I'm full! There's just somthing about having a bunch of folk get together at a long table covered in newspaper and well supplyed with wooden mallets and beer pitchers when a couple dozen, hot, steaming Blue crabs gets dumped in the middle! And Maryland Crab Cakes... Ah! Truely decadent.If you've ever had to pick the meat out of a Blue crab, you'll appreciate the dedication it must take to put enough by to do anything else but pop it in your mouth right away. If somebody makes crab cakes for you, out of Chesapeake bay Blue Crabs, you MUST be loved.

[This message has been edited by Art Read (edited 10-31-2001).]

John R Smith
10-31-2001, 11:34 AM
Whoa up, chaps. Let's not turn this into "the rest of us versus Paul" thread. Paul has contributed a lot of really good stuff to the Forum in the past, and has helped me out several times on problems with "Lulu".

This is not a situation where I want to "win" an argument, and I don't want to be pressured in that direction. Neither do I want to pressure Paul into feeling threatened or polarised so that he has to "win". This is a discussion. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

John

Jim H
10-31-2001, 11:37 AM
"Can't we all just get along????"

I would just like to see an end to the personal attacks which in somes ways reminds me of High School. Even some well written posts are little more than that. I understand where John Smith is coming from, just look at the post counter for the different forums, it looks like we are just hanging around the Miscellaneous Forum waiting for something to happen... http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

I may very well be the dumb B*%&*)^&*^d that started the off-topic posting on Misc. as redjim777, but then I've always had a "wild hair" http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/wink.gif .

Even though I may disagree with some on this forum on various subjects I like hearing from others and I appreciate dissent. I do not appreciate someone posting an inflamitory article with no preamble as to why it was posted or whether or not they support the author, just to get a flame war started, under the guise that it's for discussion. Thats little more than tossing a grenade into a crowded room. If you have an opinion and want to insert a supporting article, give us both.

I enjoy everyone's contribution here, I've been called names and ignored by some, but I think that is more a function of my poor ability to translate what is running around in my head into cohesive thoughts on a computer screen and a severe lack of time at work to squeeze this into my day.

Would we all be good friends if we lived in the same neighborhood? No, probably not, but I think this group would be more civil than most.

Jim, (the darn phone won't stop ringing...)

Alan D. Hyde
10-31-2001, 11:49 AM
Paul, I share John's appreciation for your contributions.

"Reality," however, is in good part what we decide to make it. Life, that is, is not a spectator sport. If we throw elbows under the basket, then that's how the game is played. If we don't throw elbows, more people may be willing to play, and we may have a better game.

Now I personally am pretty thick-skinned, but others have less tolerance for trash talk. And some of these others see things I don't see, or see things in different ways. I personally enjoy and benefit from this divergence of perspicacity and point of view. Civility seems a small price to pay for a better view of the world.

Alan

[This message has been edited by Alan D. Hyde (edited 10-31-2001).]

Nicholas Carey
10-31-2001, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by JimH:
I would just like to see an end to the personal attacks which in somes ways reminds me of High School. Even some well written posts are little more than that.

Well, in the world of USENET, you can alwasy invoke Godwin's Law: Any discussion eventually devolves into a comparison with Nazis. Ergo, by USENET convention[1], once someone compares someone else to a Nazi in a thread, the discussion is over. It has run its course.

More broadly speaking, of course, what Godwin was saying was that once the discourse has devolved to the point of ad hominem attacks, nobody has anything more to add. Thus, the conversation is over.

It wouldn't be a bad rule to apply in this group.

[1] Unfortunately, more honored in the breach than in the observance, since Eternal September began.

Billy Bones
10-31-2001, 12:01 PM
Here it is, in a nutshell:

The joy of the internet is that it gives everyone connected to it the ability to share a mind-boggling array of information and experience on any topic you can imagine.

The horror of the internet is that it gives everyone connected to it the ability to share their opinions.

This forum is at it's best when information and experience are being shared, and at its worst when opinions are being shared.

John, no one is polarizing this discussion more than Paul himself, and I recall now that he likes to do that. He had similar things to say about cleek at one time, and various others along the way. That's just his style, I'll accept it and move on.

Jim H
10-31-2001, 12:10 PM
Drifting back to the recipe thread...

I see that we have no representation for the pig, so in effort to continue that PC notion of fairness to all:

Two racks of pork ribs
2 six packs of the cheapest light beer available (most important)
Two 9x11 pans
Your favorite BBQ sauce
Pecan or Hickory wood chuncks
Water smoker or charcoal grill
Your favorite beer at it's prefered swerving temp.

Place a rack of ribs in each 9x11 pan, pour enough beer over them so that they are half submerged, marinate overnight in the fridge. (you can use less beer if you use gallon zip lock bags, but then you'll have to cut the racks into smaller pieces.)

The next day:
I pull them out of the frige, reserve the marinade, season the ribs with a rub and let them come up towards room temp. (there are lots of ways to season, choose what you like the best)
Prep the water smoker or grill for a low fire @ 250 degrees. Soak wood (pecan/hick) for an hour in water.
While you are waiting for the coals, coat ribs with BBQ of choice.

For the water smoker: in the water pan place reserved marinade and additional cheap light beer, I use 3 or 4 16oz cans. (Reserve some cheap beer for latter as it will boil away.) Place ribs on smoker and have a beer, hell have several.

For the charcoal grill: move coals to one side, pace ribs opposite fire and keep an eye on temp.

Times vary, but I find that with a low fire about 4 or 5 hours is sufficient. Meat will shrink back from the tips of the ribs and racks will pull apart easily.

If there is interst I'll share my favorite corn on the cobb with y'all.

Jim

Billy Bones
10-31-2001, 12:22 PM
I'd love the corn on the cobb recipe, or rather my wife would. I like corn on the cobb but she's a nut for the stuff!

Also, does anyone know of a good quality cast iron charcoal grill that will work in wind? I've been a-searchin' and I ain't been a-findin'.

Thanks for sharing the recipes!

CaseyJones
10-31-2001, 12:27 PM
"But I am entitled, like everyone else, to a voice within it."

I don't think any of us are "entitled" to a voice here. We are guests of WoodenBoat.

Ed Harrow
10-31-2001, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Paul Frederiksen:
[B]Some of you are just too thin skinned to handle any controversial or off color topic. ... A few heated arguments or angry words do not mean the end of the world. ...
So here is what it comes down to. I am going to continue to talk about whatever interests me, ... I will do so here on this forum without any regard for the fact that some of you wish I would not do so. ... I will continue to tell you to stuff it. You are out of line to try to control others speach, even on the wooden boat forum.

Another suggestion. If you want the forum to be the picture of your idillic imagination. Start one of your own. Create it in your own image. By the sound of it there are at least a dozen posters here who would rather go there. Then you will all be happy. [B]

"How now, my sweet creature of bombast?"

Andrew
10-31-2001, 01:18 PM
Flaming is ok, I guess, as long as it's done with diplomacy... the art of telling someone to go to hell and have them actually looking forward to the trip.

JDD
10-31-2001, 01:27 PM
I have a general comment of observation about the intelligent and the crude ones posting. I would hope we all learned in some school that profanity was a lack of smarts to express an opinion on anything of topic.

Also to follow up on some comments about being able to bring ones children to this web page and read and learn, I know for myself I have no desire to share the profanity with any of my kids or grandkids.

Many heated discussions happens even around the dinner table but most of the time very few people are asked to leave and not come back.

P.S. I can hear the malletts in my sleep calling. Pour the Old Bay on the paper and dip the backfin in it and have a good burn. Bring on the frosty glasses.

Then the leaves that are green turn to brown. Those old timey single hand size oysters, with cocktail sauce and oyster crackers with the hole in the middle of the table at TEEPLES in Thunderbolt, Ga on the way south in November rounds out the last frontier of eating.

I did think of one more place as i went for the send button and that was St. Augustine, Fla. We use to go across the Bridge of Lions to O'Steens and eat those 6 to 10 count shrimp fried in lard and onion hush puppies.

Oh one more item of interest was when we would arrive at Sebastin, Fla. the clammers wold be working in the ICW and we would pull up to them and buy the cheerystone size of a big silver dollar right salty and open them up and recycle the shells back to the water.

Paul Frederiksen
10-31-2001, 01:48 PM
Amazing Ed, isn't it how by cutting snippets of a post and tying them together you can totally distort what a person said. But then again, I guess that is why they call it context.

I guess you can tell that I am a pretty big proponent of freedom of speech. There is an important distinction between telling someone to "stuff it" (which is the exercise of freedom of speech) and calling for a consensus to agree to stifle certain forms of speech (which is also free speech, but also something more). Those of you who are trying to equate the two are missing a vital point. There is no difference between political correctness and censorship. Even mutually agreed (by a small percentage in this case) political correctness, is still censorship.

There is also a difference between a flame or personal attack, and addressing ones comments based on reason logic, directly to the person to whom they apply. One is the absence of logic and the presence of pure vitriol. The other is merely directing the logic to the appropriate member.

I like to argue. I like to observe others argue. But a rarely flame or attack a person (Pat Cox may be the exception here). I have no problem attacking what that person says. There is a huge difference between saying that a posters argument is weak and explaining why, and saying that his mother wears combat boots. Some of you don't seem to be able to see the distinction.

Several have called for "civility". By whose definition? Yours? By my definition this is a remarkably civil place, especially when the differences in opinions held by its members are taken into account. But that is not what this thread is calling for. It is calling for a restriction on topics in order to avoid the possibility that someone may be uncivil. Again, there is a significant difference between the two.

Dave Fleming
10-31-2001, 01:49 PM
Winter Pork Roast
1 hunk or as large a piece as your biggest pot will hold, of boneless pork loin.
I use about 1/2 of a full loin.
1 large onion
1 medium onion
2 cloves garlic
2 cooking apples
1 cup dried apricots
1 cup dried prunes
1 cup raisins
1 cup dried cranberries
2 pounds of sauerkraut well drained
bottle of drinking white wine
2 bay leaves
kosher salt
fresh ground pepper
5 to 10 pounds of spuds, Russets are my choice.
1/2 pound of unsalted butter
either whole milk or half and half say 2 cups maximum

Bring meat to room temperature and then brown on all sides over high heat using a neutral cooking oil, like Safflower, Canola or Rapeseed not much say 2 or 3 table spoons.
Heat oven to 325 degrees and when meat is browned transfer to roasting pan with rack.
Cook pork till desired doneness or it registers proper temp on meat thermometer.
In pot drain off most but not all of the grease and oil and over medium head add the large finely sliced onion and a clove or two of garlic.
When onions are translucent add the apples, cut the same way as the onion.
Let them cook for a bit say 2 minutes.
Add sauerkraut,dried fruits, bay leaves and pork roast.
Add some of the white wine till it just comes up as high as the bottom of the roast but try not to have the roast sit in the liquid.
You check during cooking and if needed add a bit more wine to pot.
You are giving back moisture to the dried fruits and substituting wine for brine in the "kraut".
Put pot in still on oven if it will fit.
Temp should be no more than 325 degrees or even 250 is fine. If on top of stove just till the simmering gently point.
Let cook for at least 1 hour or till the hardest fruit usually the raisins are soft.
Remove roast to serving platter and other stuff to collander over bowl. Let stuff drain. Don't forget to remove the Bay Leaves!!!
Meanwhile spuds, peeled and cut to uniform chunks should have been cooking till just done through NOT mushy.
Medium onion is chopped and cooked in some butter till translucent.
Spuds are drained put back in still hot cooking pot but off heat, onion added and mashed with some salt and pepper and some healthy(?) chunks of butter. Add dairy liquid a bit at a time till desired creamness is reached. Now a gravy is called for but unless you want another long post I think those of you who cook can handle that without me.
Serve slices of the roast over a mound of the kraut dried fruit mix with mashed pototoes on the side and pass the gravy boat.
A good white wine, preferable dry, should be served as a sweeter wine would be too much with the sweetish rich kraut mixture.
Now ya gonna have some mashed 'taters' left and that is good for next night in a nice Shepherds Pie. I do this type of meal on a Sunday and Wednesday is leftover night.
Dessert, well a nice pie with some tartness in it would be fine, say a lemon curd or rhubarb, good coffee, that lovely VSOP brandy and the nap or a walk around the neighborhood with the dog, depending on your mood or the dogs.
http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by Dave Fleming (edited 10-31-2001).]

G. Schollmeier
10-31-2001, 03:05 PM
LOL!!! As I've said before, I grew up in a large family. Feels like home here. I'm not worried about the forum. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif
Gary

Ed Harrow
10-31-2001, 03:29 PM
Now, Paul, you are actually getting your point across in a way wherein you're getting your point across, not getting an attitude across. I like your reply to me a whole lot more than your previous comments.

You may argue that it says the same as the prior one, and I postulate that it does not. Now, unfortunately, work calls.

Thanks for responding, Ed

J. Dillon
10-31-2001, 03:47 PM
What a thread,

Verbal dueling mixed with cooking recepies.
Where else but the WOODENBOAT FORUM.

JD

Jim H
10-31-2001, 03:58 PM
Billy, your wife may have already tried this:

Whole corn
Chiles of your choice
(Red Jalapeno, Anaheim, Poblano etc.)
Sweet onion
(Tx 1015, Vidalia, etc)
Salted butter, softened
Freshly cracked Black Pepper
Extra Heavy Duty aluminum foil

Shuck the corn
Seed and dice peppers
Dice onion

Throroughly rub each ear with butter, place individually on square of foil, add as much pepper-onion mix as you like shake on some black pepper wrap tightly and place close to fire, initially. As the ears start to soften move them away from the fire to keep them from burning. The result (and it did take a couple of tries to get it right) is that the corn will be lightly browned on the tops of the kernals which adds it's own distinct taste to the corn.

Note: you can also use herbed butter, what you might prefer is left to the imagination, like basil, oregano & thyme. I'm going to try chile powder & ground comino seed.

The only other corn I prefer is the kind you get when you have a crawfish boil.

Jim

P.S. Just thought about using lemongrass and or lemon juice with the butter, looks like I'll be trying that this weekend...

[This message has been edited by JimH (edited 10-31-2001).]

ken mcclure
10-31-2001, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
Winter Pork Roast

This is VERY similar to the way I do pork roast.

Careful with the prunes and the sauerkraut, though. You will find yourself in the throne room reading WB for a WHILE!

Just like Ex-Lax - guaranteed to work by 8am. I just wish I'da been up. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/frown.gif

Dave Fleming
10-31-2001, 05:35 PM
KM, you can always leave out the prunes and substitute some other dried fruit.
Frankly after a meal like that a good dump, (gosh I said that!), is not a bad idea.
Just make sure you are not out on that walk with the dog, ya folla?
Sorta like what happens when I make Onion Soup too.
http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

Dave Fleming
10-31-2001, 05:43 PM
J.Dillon, I figured that between JohnRSmith's original post and then Paul Frederiksen's replys( say Paul is that truck driving a vocation or an avocation, just wondering.)
I caught the recipe hint and am running with it. Sorta lightening up the group though in truth the ones, recipes, I have been posting are a bit on the heavy side too.
Les'see a how about a recipe for Salad Nicoise??

bud
10-31-2001, 06:38 PM
Forum going stale, hmmm. When I want to eat some stale bread I sprinkle a little water on it and toast it. So - I think some one is telling me to go to Florida and go sailing! http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

JDD
10-31-2001, 09:55 PM
Dave, heavy to a heavy weight is all in a days work. In many areas of the country, pork is the only white meat so don't worry about the entree. Just blend and eat. Whatever the substance, it only last for the most twelve hours. Horse blinders and time will take care of the forum and and fat cells. Eat on my fellow citizens.

Dave Fleming
11-01-2001, 12:02 AM
JDD,,,,
ROFLOL!!

Maybritt
11-01-2001, 01:15 AM
For those of you who have read this far - John you are expressing what I would like the forum to be - one of my coments on a relatively recent thread - "What a load of crap" received the response - "Crap can be interesting just ask my dog" which means that the forum is (and should be) the one that Bob Cleek favours and is full of people who like to express their opinions like any yachty. I would hope that self censorship means that the "wooden boat" forum thrives...

I have not read a lot of the WTO stuff and the response such as jokes etc to those WTO threads which may have triggered your e mail but this is a predominatly American and I suspect we Brits underestimate how those events changed things in the states....Mr Cleek - never met anyone with an IQ as high as my room temperature (and it is pretty hot here in Singapore) are you one of them ? - joke honest.

Respect to all.

Andrew
11-01-2001, 11:17 AM
JDD, by mixing up the posts I somehow got a cup of vitriol mixed in your crab cake recipe. Can you suggest any thing to save this batch?

Ed Harrow
11-01-2001, 01:07 PM
a half tablespoon of CPES should do nicely

Paul Frederiksen
11-02-2001, 12:42 AM
Ed,

Well, if at first I don't succeed, I just keep yabbering until it finally comes out right. Sorry it took me four tries to sort it out this time.

I drive truck to get out my aggressions http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

JDD
11-04-2001, 04:51 PM
Dave your request for Salad Nicoise is posted. Sorry it took so long.

Dave Fleming
11-04-2001, 05:02 PM
Saw it and again Thanks...

Hugh Paterson
11-04-2001, 06:35 PM
J.R.S Sori dont think the forum is stale, I might not agree with everything thats featured, but hey its easy to pull the plug or not bite like some people might like.
Bob ya hit it on the nail again.
JDD yummy!

Shug

Andreas Wiese
11-05-2001, 06:32 AM
As always you are spot on, John. I have also felt that the terrible atrocities of September 11th have resulted in some unpleasentness on this forum. I know I don't have to read posts I don't like, but their presence still annoys me. Discussing major events is perfectly legitimate. Displays of blatant prejudices and foul language is not.
Just knowing that such posts exists have made me uncomfortable using the forum. Similarily, I would not read the travel pages of a newspaper whose political section is riddled with unfounded extremist views. I can only hope that people will have the decency to abstain from posting spurious truths through inflammatory language in the future.

Bayboat
11-05-2001, 11:52 AM
I, too have been bothered occasionally by large departures from boat talk into politics, religion and foreign affairs. But not enough to recommend any changes in the forum's format.
And when the forum experiences a large departure such as the mouth-watering recipies recently posted, I say why not?

Speaking of recipies, I have looked for a long time for information on a Spanish dish called "lacon." Some years ago I had some for dinner at one of Spain's delightful posadas (government-run inns). The lacon was described as a regional dish from Galicia.
It was s thick slice of what tasted like corned pork. Has anyone traveled in Galicia and had lacon? Can you tell me more about it?

Bruce Taylor
11-05-2001, 12:32 PM
Lacon con grelos:

http://web.jet.es/cid/imagenes/lacon.jpg

http://web.jet.es/cid/gastron2.htm#lacon

Ed Harrow
11-05-2001, 12:44 PM
"Government run in" I atttempt, at most any case, to avoid a run in with a government.

Bayboat
11-07-2001, 10:58 AM
Yep, that's it. Thanks, Bruce. Now I have to find a butcher who can supply salt-cured pork shoulder. Ummm--smack! It was at Verin, whose web site you provided, that I first had lacon.

[This message has been edited by Bayboat (edited 11-07-2001).]

Wild Dingo
11-07-2001, 11:06 AM
Smack???????? http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/eek.gif Maybe it tastes better than it looks??? http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Take it easy
Shane

chris passante
11-07-2001, 11:30 AM
I apologize in advance of this, sir. I've been here on and off over the last year or so, mostly listening in and once in a while I seek advice. But I seek advice on both boat-related and misc. topics. American and non-American. I've learned a lot about boats and about life here.
We are an international community of folks who love, care, build and sail (or motor) wooden boats.
The very idea that we should come here on one level, one plane, well, that's not why I am here.
Much of what is written on this site is entertaining, and enlightening. Sure, some of it's downright trivial, but most isn't. And while 99 percent of these replies claim that you are right, there is a sentence or two in each reply having to do with the fact that we've all read and participated in some of the trivial topics --and have enjoyed them, too.
I'm here for a number of reasons, but what a boring forum this would be if we can't express ourselves. I'm a wooden-boater who likes to be in the company of other wooden-boat enthusiasts. But I don't simply seek out simply to talk about boats.
And that's why this misc. forum has the most entries, replies, and interest out of all the wooden boat forums.
I say God bless the diversity.
Now, if anyone wants to burn me at the stake, let me know and I will take your leave.
-chris

Andrew
11-07-2001, 11:48 AM
Should we CPES the stake first? (LOL)

Ed Harrow
11-07-2001, 12:28 PM
Wait, wait, don't toss those marshmellows, now we've got a burning need for them...

N. Scheuer
11-07-2001, 12:38 PM
How long will SARDINES last when kept in a boat? We keep several tins in TRUE NORTH for emergency rations, along with a couple of MRE's, and after being left out for a couple of winters (at least one tin was packed in water) Gayle thought they ought to be checked. So we opened one for Horses Dovers on Triskets, along with a nice Chardonay, and near as I was able to determine, the Sardines were just as good as ever.

Moby Nick

Andrew
11-07-2001, 04:30 PM
Sardines are iffy thing. I think ou had better check each can. My favorite way was smashed and spread on toast with lots of black pepper.

Jim H
11-07-2001, 05:30 PM
What were the MRE's for? Shark repellent??

JDD
11-08-2001, 01:00 PM
Andrew I failed to responded to your post of the mixup. Drink lots of Scotch. I mean lots of Scotch, lotss of Scotches, loots fo notches, sot of whatchers, lettuce who now be snockers.

martin schulz
02-28-2004, 03:52 AM
What is CPES?

Honestly!