Fireplace Maintenance

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

SWMBO and I are having a "discussion" regarding starting a fire in the fireplace. She is nervous about having a fire in the fireplace without having the chimney cleaned. She is fearful that we will have the dreaded chimney fire. What is the protocol and please be thorough remember we are having one of those "discussions" :D

A little background info for you to know. The entire fireplace was replaced and NEVER used when we bought the home 3 years ago. Last year we had the fire place profe$$ionally cleaned at the beginning of the season. I burned about 1/2 a cord of wood in the living room fireplace, since I burn much more in the woodburning stove in the great room. So what do you think, do you have to have the fireplace cleaned profe$$ionaly EVERY season? Also what about those cleaning logs do they actually work? Rapid response appreciated since I want a cozy fire tonight smile.gif

[Nicholas Carey]

I think that if you only put a half cord through it since its last cleaning, you're almost certainly OK.

However...some things to consider:

</font> What kind of wood do you burn?There's a big difference between burning hardwoods like oak, maple or hickory and burning softwoods like pine and fir in the amount of creosote produced.</font> Do you burn a hot, clean, oxidising fire, or a cool, reducing fire?A reducing fire, where the draft is choked down to reduce the flow of oxygen to the fire will produce more creosote than an oxidising fire.</font> How long is the smoke path? Is it vertical or does it have horizontal runs?
The longer the smoke path, the cooler the smoke and the more creosote will get deposited on the flue walls. Likewise, horizontal smoke paths will accumulate more creosote than vertical smoke paths.</font>

[Donn]

Hard question to answer without knowing more. Did the fireplace cleaning last year include the chimney's flue? That's usually where you have problems. Fireplaces usually aren't very efficient, and can cause creosote buildup in the flue.

I've always used a 5 cord rule for fireplaces. Clean the flue every 5 cords. That's assuming well-seasoned hardwood.

[cs]

Let me add that I clean mine every season whether I burn a lot or not. Never know what has made a home in there. Better safe than sorry.

BTW I clean mine myself. I used a square chimmy sweep and scrub away.

Chad

[Alan D. Hyde]

If you have been burning seasoned hardwood, had hot fires, and have a normal more-or-less straight up and down lined flue, you should be fine, assuming that the chimney was properly cleaned last time.

Alan

[Meerkat]

Is it a big box of baking soda you have nearby just in case?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Donn:
Hard question to answer without knowing more. Did the fireplace cleaning last year include the chimney's flue? That's usually where you have problems. Fireplaces usually aren't very efficient, and can cause creosote buildup in the flue.

I've always used a 5 cord rule for fireplaces. Clean the flue every 5 cords. That's assuming well-seasoned hardwood.The Fireplace was a fully cleaning including the flue. The chimney is a short strait vertical run. I only burned seasoned hardwood. It doesn't look like I'm going to win this battle since it is one of those safety issues. You know the ones where I say what's the difference between this fire and the last fire a few months ago she says its better to be safe than sorry. How do you argue with What if ?????
:mad: Annoying :(

Hey anybody know about those chimney cleaning logs??

[Donn]

The cleaning logs don't do squat. There are only 2 foolproof ways to clean a flue...a chimneysweep or a chimney fire.

Have a campfire outside, instead. Got a fire ring?

[ishmael]

It's really easy, have a fire.

Almost all problems with dirty chimneys come from woodstoves that are burned low and make a bunch of creasote. Wet wood etc. If all you've got burning out that flue is an open hearth you'll probably never have to have it cleaned.

Relax, have a fire. Trust me on this one.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Put an old towel on the bottom of the fireplace, lie on it facing upward with a large flashlight, and see how much residue there really is.

If little or none, then show your wife: let her look for herself.

THAT should satisfy her.

Alan

[Oyvind Snibsoer]

In these parts the municipal chimney sweepers come by every second year or so. Sweeping the chimney after a mere 1/2 cord of wood is definitely overkill.

[ishmael]

A small mirror, while it's still light, is the way I learned to inspect a chimbly, but I garendamtee you it's not fouled.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid81/p6bc59fdcfe35857113e2e1ddb597dd33/faf1b622.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Thanks :D

[Donn]

That's the kind of fire that leaves creosote in your flue.

[Concordia..41]

Joe wins again ;)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Donn:
That's the kind of fire that leaves creosote in your flue.Curiouse why?

[Donn]

It's burning cold....smoldering. Coals are great to watch, but they make creosote.

[ishmael]

I'm no expert, even if I sound off like one, but a low fire is going to leave more creasote in your flue. It's simple physics, creasote is a variety of combustion products, gases. When the fire and the flue gases are hot they don't precipitate on the walls of the chimney, they go out the chimney. When the fire and the flue gases are cooler more accumulate. But with an open fire it is rarely, ie never, an issue.

The fire you show is much hotter than is typical in a woodstove that is damped down. And woodstoves used as heaters spend a lot of their lives damped down, making cool(er) gases day in and day out. Hence they make a lot of stuff that needs brushing out of the chimney. They are combustible these deposits, and every year, in the spring, a house or two burns down because they catch fire, usually while people are sleeping, and with poor chimneys.

And I shouldn't say your chimney couldn't catch fire. Even with an open hearth the stuff can build up and is worth keeping an eye on. Though we burned many chords through the home hearth and our cabin's hearth, open fires, and never had a problem.

My mirror trick. But from what you describe you've got no worries at all tonight. Keep a screen in front to catch any sparks.

BTW, where is The Chemist?

[ 09-30-2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Guys, please the fire is burning nice and bright now the photo I took was just after I started it, its all good now no problems. Thanks again

[ishmael]

smile.gif But you did ask. Be smart and you won't burn your house down tonight, not from a chimney fire anywho.

Enjoy the fire. It is one of the most beautiful things in the world.

[ 09-30-2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Mrleft8]

Originally posted by cs:
Let me add that I clean mine every season whether I burn a lot or not. Never know what has made a home in there. Better safe than sorry.

BTW I clean mine myself. I used a square chimmy sweep and scrub away.

ChadDid I ever tell you guys about the duck in my chimney?

[Meerkat]

Ok, my earlier question was real: is it baking soda you keep handy in case of a flue fire?

[cs]

Joe explain to me agian why you can't go down to Lowes and buy a chimny brush and clean it out yourself at the start of the season.

Chad

[Ron Williamson]

If it's a short straight run,go up there and look,it'a good idea for maintenance anyway(go to Lowes and buy a chimney brush first).
If it was recently rebuilt it ought to be able to stand a chimney fire or two.It's no fun BTW.
There is creosote(like badly burned popcorn)which has been pyrolised(still burns well though), and there is BAD creosote (like tar,not yet pyrolised).This still has lots of BTUs in it,as it it essentially distilled wood gases,that have condensed on the cooler surfaces of the chimney(as Donn and Jack are discussing).
You won't find much of the tarry stuff,likely.
R

[Shang]

"...She is fearful that we will have the dreaded chimney fire..."

Wait a minute...you've been married how long...and you still want to change her mind through reason?

(On a practical basis, assume she is right, clean the damn'd thing, tell her that you appreciate her clear vision on the subject while enjoying a glass of wine together in front of the fire.
You may be able to get some real milage out of this!)

[Peter Kalshoven]

Joe,
Finally, a question in my area of expertise.

1/2 a cord of seasoned hardwood shouldn't be a problem. However, I've got to agree with Chad regarding a fall pre-burn inspection. Chimney brushes aren't that expensive, and checking the cap for damage, wasps nest, birds, etc, is a darn good idea.

Also, should a chimney fire ever happen, DO NOT use the fireplace again until after it has been professionally inspected. Even a brand new chimney can be damaged through a chimney fire.

Common sense and safety suggests the following added items. A good chemical extinguisher, a screen, and glass doors (to reduce home heat loss at the end of the burn). Baking soda is great for a grease fire. Until you've actually experience a chimney fire, you've no idea how awesome and frightful they are. A box of baking soda would be like pissing on a forest fire.

Pete

[Alan D. Hyde]

:D :D :D

Alan

[ahp]

First of all, a chimney fire is not so dreadful. If the flue is tight and the roof is not dry wood shingles, you could probably just let it go until it burned out the creosote without much risk.

I have had chimney fires. The first time I called the fire department and they put it out, but they are messy. The second time I just threw in several handfulls of baking soda, and that put it out. No sweat, no mess.

[oldriverat]

Yup, two years ago a friend of mine had a nice little fire going on Christmas eve. He went outside to adjust his lights he had strung up. He turned to go back to the house and saw a big orange glow in the wall beside of the chimney. The whole wall burst into flames and he lost everything.

It's better to be safe than sorry.

[Peter Kalshoven]

Joe, chimney fires CAN be "dreadful." This is a subject I know about, and I suggest you check out Chimney Fires (http://www.csia.org/home/chimfire.html) , from the CSIA website. This is the site of the folks who study chimney safety, and have made it their lifeswork.
I try not to come across like a heavy on this stuff, but I've been in the hearth industry for about 12 years now, and I can't stand to hear moronic advice on the subject. As a colleague of mine once said, "Look, if you screw up a gutter, the house leaks. If you screw up a fireplace system, the house burns down." There are professional hearth people out there. There are also idiots. Talk to the pros. You got a family. It's worth it.

Peter Kalshoven
Past President
Hearth Education Foundation

[ishmael]

All true. I still say that after a half chord in a new flue, with an open hearth, Joe hasn't anything to worry about. Though Chad's advice to make sure the Swifts haven't roosted is true. Aparently it isn't so, Joe's had his fire.

Because my stove was a little too big for my space I had to clean it two or three times a season. Careful watching of how the flue is drawing tells when it needs sweeping. And Peter is right, a fire can crack tiles and cause need for repair in a masonry chimney. I've usually burned with a double-walled metal chimney so my chimney fires, which I've had, were less an issue. I never let them get big. There is a theory that small fires keep down the cleaning, but that's a different issue. Oh, and the best way to shut down a chimney fire, assuming it's not a real roarer, is to shut down the stove, tight. No 02, no fire.

But we're talking an open hearth here. As I said, with a fireplace I've never seen a big buildup of creosote. Never tried to heat a house with one, so a different design, or way of burning, could yield different results. Peter would know best. After a half chord it's fine.

[ 10-01-2003, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[oldriverat]

I want a woodstove. A fireplace is not very efficient for heating a house IMO. I had a nice stone fireplace in my last house and it would heat the room it was in but make the rest of the house cold as ice.

Next time your here Pete, can you tell me where would be a good place in this house to put a stove?

[Bruce G]

Joe,
My advice is to make sure that you do not get too much of the creasode build up in it--- so get the fire real hot- stick your head in and see if you get any creasode on ya- if you don't then your fireplace won't either! tongue.gif

Send us a picture to see how your doing afterwards, cuz boy oh boy we just love yo pictures :D ;)

[imported_Steven Bauer]

I was down at the local stove shop the other day looking at insulated metal chimneys and man do they have some nice stoves and inserts on the market now! I'm installing a used Jotul Model 3 in my garage/boatshop, but I saw some really nice inserts that would be great in the fireplace in the den. And they had some beautiful soapstone stoves that I loved but, wow, were they expensive - the one I really liked was $4500!

Steven

[Peter Kalshoven]

Mike, should be out there in a couple weeks. We'll add stove placement to the agenda.

Minutes
Old Business
Stove Placement
Progress of Wooden Boat Project in driveway
Ribs
Blues

Sounds like a proper chapter meeting of the SEBD&BB.

:D

Will let you know when I nail down my travel plans.
Pete

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Wow, thanks Bruce your a very funny guy. I think you and Stan should go on the road with your jokes play a few USO tours in Kabul make sure your near some land mines so you can end the show with a bang :D

On to the fireplace questions. This morning it was colder than Bruce greeting woman at a planed parenthood clinic ;) So I sparked up the woodburning stove in the great room. Everything is working fine and heated up the house good, but what's up with that smell? Not the fine wood smell I get from the fireplace in the living room. This smell is way more acrid, kinda like burning plastic. I kinda remember my wife complaining about it last year but this year I notice it way more with this first fire in the stove. Anyone experience this? Again Im only burning dry seasoned hardwood.

[ 10-06-2003, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[Mrleft8]

New stove pipe? Freshly polished stove? Or it could be 5 months of dust burning off.... The smell of a new stove pipe "breaking in" is one of the most obnoxious odors known to man....

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Thanks Doug, I remember doing my Martha cleaning last month that might be it the small of burning pledge wax Yum. Thanks you guys are good.