so about this stuff...

[maa. melee]

santitred and the like. it got me thinkin'. anyone ever use concrete/garage floor/driveway "paint" as an epoxy substitute (specifically below the water line)? i painted 3 coats of grey 'hot tire' (or somethin like that) floor paint on the concrete slab of a machine shop last summer. I visited the shop last weekend and it looked good as new...and they haul 6 or 7 ton machines back and forth on it, drag stock over it, spill oil and lubricant, and just beat the crap outa it. how would it hold up as an outside coating on a quick and dirty acx dry sailed barge without FG or epoxy?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I'm getting samples of santitred sent to me just for the heck of it. The samples will be on wood and plastic and I think concrete. In dish washer size. I will be sure to photograph it and give my review ;)

[ 04-04-2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

Some of the spray-ons contain quartz.

The quartz floors I've seen are holding up well.

But--- a maritime environment is different.

Alan

[sdowney717]

The really important thing is the flexibility. I mean a wood boat is going to move around and anything that is going on the wood has to move with it without cracking. It also has to be fairly durable tough and resistant to tearing.
Most epoxy without any glass reinforcement is brittle stuff. Concrete is also stiff, so the epoxy should hold up on it.
If you paint it on plywood, that would be better than planks. But all this is most obvious.

[maa. melee]

Keep us posted Joe. I remember reading your replies sdowney717, from a long time ago and again when I did a forum search for this stuff. Off course it will be on plywood, not solid planking. I wouldn't do it otherwise for the same reason FG and epoxy doesn't work. With flexibility aside, I'm more concerned with waterproofing and adhesion. Sacraficial skegs and worm shoes will take care of abrasion problems. Plus (big plus) this barge doesnt need to last forever and will be dry sailed. And how does the price look?

[Stargazer14]

I have been using epoxy 2 part floor paint(no quartz) for a few years now on the homefront -basement floors, shop floors and a few assorted trim pieces outside
for test purposes. It does have some flex to it, i would question using it on a hull because of the the refinishing aspect. It can be recoated, but if you had to remove all the stuff I think it would be quite a chore.
I plan on using it on my cabin top this year for chuckles
as I am not having luck with the 2-part Interlux. The epoxy paint has been almost foolproof for me and holds up well. We will see how it does in the sun. It is written up as having marine uses, and the white should shed some of the UV, but as we all know epoxy and sun dont mix. I think the solids keep the UV factor down.
Time will tell.......

[Tom Lathrop]

I have been using two part industrial epoxy on boats for over 10 years and find that it is very tough stuff. The kind I use is sold by Glidden and Sherwin Williams. It is use mostly for water tanks and bridges and is listed as chemical resistant. I think it is about the same thing as the garage floor paint.

It does chalk some and is not very glossy. I use it for decks and interior soles and it holds up better than anything I've found. Some of it is rated for potable use and for inside water tanks so it should be ok for underwater. The Glidden number is 4508 but I don't know the SW number.

[sdowney717]

If you mean price of sanitred permaflex, I bought a 5 gallon pail.
What I did on my 37 egg was
removed all bottom planks, replace many frames and replaced one rotted floor in the lazerette area.
I thoroughly cleaned the planks, floors and frames of all loose dirt crud oil etc...

I coated 2 coats of permaflex on all the frames and floors and inside of all the planks. The stuff wicks into all cracks, between all pieces of wood and sets up like a rubber glue.

On my boat some of the planks had some worm damage and cracks. The permaflex soaked into all the cracks, it wicked in, (it loves cracks, splits and small holes.) You paint it on and it soaks right into the wood. You cas watch it soak in. On end grain, the wood really sucks it up. Even as thick as the stuff is, I was surprised how much it soaked into end grain.
So I ended up with 2 coats on most pieces.
Anyway I coated all the frames, floors and inside of the planks on one side and still have 2 gallons left. So it goes pretty far.
I will have to buy another 5 gallon pail.
I painted it on the props, strainers, rudders everything. The stuff is hard to get off your skin and I am a messy painter so I dripped it everywhere.

I firmly believe in having a sound strong hull.
My repairs should be better then new.
The permaflex is totally waterproof and if I can keep water away from the wood, my efforts should last a long time. Wooden boats do get some strength from soaking up water, swelling the wood, but you always have weepage and the screws will rot, the critters will eat the wood, the seams will fail and the wood will rot. And one of my biggest fears, the boat will sink.

[maa. melee]

Sanitred is premixed, one part. Garage and driveway concrete paint is one part. That floor stuff seams to go on nice and thick and after 2 coats, its like having armor on your floors. Is it epoxy based? Is there such thing as a 1 part epoxy based coating along these lines? Since this particular vessel is in a caste of its own, I'd like to avoid pricey coatings and lean toward something Home Depot will have.

[sdowney717]

I am just relating my own personal experience.
When I find something that works pretty good, I like to talk about it. I have heard from a Trumpy owner who has used it and liked it. And everyone at the marina has been very interested in it. But all my talk is just hearsay evidence. You will just have to find out for yourself since few know about it.
The stuff is supposed to be permanently flexible and permanently waterproof. I thought about this for a few years thinking how I wanted to go about rebuilding my own boat hull. I really thought keeping the water away from the screws and wood would be an big improvement, but I did not want to use epoxy and glass on a carval built boat. Even the Rot Doctor is selling urethanes now. I would go with price and performance issues and do your own research. Industrially, polyurethane sealers have a long history of sealing tanks, pipes etc...
Polyurethane sealers are usually oil, gas, water and acid proof.

[sdowney717]

My experience with wooden boats started in my teens with a wooden lightning we sailed in the chesapeake. It was a soaker, we pulled it out in the fall and put it back in the spring. Lots of fun. This last boat 37 egg sedan cruiser, which has the extended salon of which only 10 were made in 1970, I have owned since 1999. We cruise from the Poquoson river area to the York River area. 6 months after I got the boat, I noticed the transom was just about shot, I completely rebuilt that from scratch and replaced the flybridge. These older egg boats can be absolute rot factories! I also completely rebuilt both salon window sides and channels both lower and upper cabins using Dow 331 epoxy and versamid hardener and new honduras mahogany. I found the epoxy on Ebay for 25 per gallon. He is a great source price wise. Really good stuff. I have also had to overhaul one velvet drive, turned out rust had formed on the inner oil pump surface causing the square rubber ring to leak. The boat is all original still having the Palmer 392's it came with. I run full synthetic mobil one 10w-30 and they run fairly well. You really got to have a friend to split the cost of fuel, these boats drink gas like water.
I am the kind of person that enjoys rebuilding and overhauling older stuff that few would bother with. And I like to take my time doing it, I run a project over and over in my mind many times before actually doing anything.

[Chris Stewart]

Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
I'm getting samples of santitred sent to me just for the heck of it. The samples will be on wood and plastic and I think concrete. In dish washer size. I will be sure to photograph it and give my review ;) If you have some left over, could you paint some on an old rag? I'd be curious to see if it remains flexible enough to use for painting the skin of a folding kayak. Thanks in advance.

[Thad Van Gilder]

OK, so we are slathering atough, resilent polymer on a very flexible object.

how could it possibly have the strength to counteract the movements of planks in a seaway...

It just doesn't seem to make sense...

plus who would experiment on a Trumpy with something that isn't tried and true?

-Thad

[paul oman]

As most of you know, I'm in the epoxy business. Pretty much evenly split between marine epoxies (I own 20 small boats!) and industrial/residential (mostly garage, floor and table top stuff). Thought I could get you guys up to speed on this topic....

First, I don't know anything about the product mentioned or even what it is.

OK, marine epoxies are essentially just the semi raw resin and curing agent (plus maybe secret addtives etc). Floor epoxies are generally about the same but with pigment. Epoxy paints are floor epoxies with jelling agents (like fumed silica) to give some some jelling body after application to a vertical surface.

Generally marine epoxies are brittle (who wants a rubbery boat) and floor epoxies and epoxy paints have a bit of flex to handle expansion and contractions, without the benefit of cloth.

You could use floor epoxy to build a boat or by adding some fumed silica - as a hull barrier coat.

I would stay away from waterbased (floor) epoxies except as a primer. they go on thin and get thinner (about 50% water) and tend be 'breathe' which you don't want generally on a boat.

Most of you are aware of my constant soapboxing suggesting that marine use of epoxies are just one tiny part of the epoxy niche. Marine epoxies are not special, our marine epoxy gets used all the time (well, in summer) making or resealing those pebble stone walkways around swimming pools etc.

paul oman

[maa. melee]

i wouldnt use this stuff on solid planking. what im wondering is what i should use over acx plywood to protect it for no more than 5 years besides epoxy (once again, dry sailed). tight budget so i cant afford anything fancy. some1 have a good thick-coating product like a floor paint or driveway coating i can find at a local hardware store?

[Hal Forsen]

Henry's roofing tar.
HF

[maa. melee]

glad this thread didnt die without supplying some closure. thanks to all who helped.

[kulas44]

I don't pretend to be an expert in the use of rubberized coatings, but, over the last year or so I have used abot 20 gallons of Sanitred permaflex and 5 gallons of there liquid rubber base. Mostly on deck surfaces of my boats. After you put it on correctly (takes practice) your deck WILL not leak- period... The lrb can be thickend with a thickening activator and used to fair some really nasty looking surfaces, if done right you can't even see a blemish. As for filling gaps and cracks that open and close with changes in moisture, you prime first with permaflex then fill with lrb thickend to your likeing. It sticks like baby **** on a blanket and has a 300% elongation factor, so it stretches and compresses with the wood instead of just pulling loose. It's best to use it on both sides of the wood if possible, as it does seal off water uptake entirely. I applied it to a f.g. sportfishing boat (that I planned to sell) as a deck and topside coating because of numerous cracks and crazing. The first thing anyone said when looking at the boat was "wow, I love this surface, what is it? " Try it, you'll like it.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

So I got those samples and some very poor literature on the material in the mail yesterday.

It's basically rubber :rolleyes:

The textured version bonded to the plywood didn't even pass the preliminary yank on the damn thing test. :rolleyes:

Although I did like the fact that it REMOVED easily and was not PERMANENT like they said over the phone. Kinda feel a little shaky about the whole product and not a very professional sample packet.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid164/pad68508e66c8402d4ff3c70abf5b867b/f484b099.jpg

Textured on ABX plywood

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid164/p99cbdd87d9aea7e5735240e17bf76a85/f484b061.jpg

Textured on ABX plywood with very easily pealing up an edge and pulling it off :rolleyes:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid164/pa584adc647e904f7760be25328c54532/f484afb1.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

bump

[paul oman]

I am currently testing a rubber copolymer paint on some plywood (along with other primers, etc).

I used this rubber paint on both sides of the bottom of a dinghy that I left in a freshwater pond for several months. Both sides held up well. I left the boat upside down over winter (NH) with lots of snow - snow is about gone now - bottom come thru the winter great. I also used the stuff to seal 2 leaking (brand new) skylights that where leaking thru the glass/frame seal.

Also being tested as a paint on white wall for tires.... Seems OK but I think it's yellowing a bit. - this stuff sticks to wax paper.

We'll see how the plywood tests go. Too early to tell if this is a good product and if it is something you should be using on a boat. I'll keep everyone posted. Note that it is considered a rubber 'co-polymer' - and I don't really know what that is.......

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

[Gary E]

Joe,
The sanitred sample does not look so good, if it wont stick to plywood what will it stick to, and to have those samples supplied by the factory, well, if the xperts get those results, wonder what the average guy gets. Maybe a e-mail to the company President is in order, with a reference to this thread. Did they send you a pint to play with? Maybe they should.

The texture looks ok for a deck, but I hope that is not what someone is sugesting to apply to the bottom.

Paul,
Your testing a rubber copolymer paint ?? does it have a name on the can or is this some of your own brew?

"sticks to wax paper" ohh?? please splain that!!
since wax is often used as a mold release for rubber molds.

[sdowney717]

I agree with Kulas, I have been happy enough with the permaflex- aromatic that I have used.
I am using it as a sealer to keep water out of the wood. And in my own usage, I have seen it adhere so well as a glue, that it breaks the wood and not the bond. But after Joe's post, I am sure most people will just dismiss the stuff completely.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

For a fair and balanced post. I should say upon very close inspection of the delimitated plywood sample I noticed that the wood sample may have some white painting on it. That may be a reason it released to easily.

sdowney717 nobody wanted this stuff to work more than me. I'm just reporting objectively what I received. I still think the Tan would make a beautiful deck covering. I'm just not convinced it's a miracle goop, yet.

[sdowney717]

Hi Joe,
Tell me how well does the stuff display the elongation property, does it stretch without breaking tearing? and how far?
In my own experience, I found the stuff soaks into small holes, cracks etc.. and to remove it you would tear either the stuff or the wood.

When I got my permaflex, I recieved detailed multipage instructions.
On my own product questions, I placed several calls to the tech people, I had to be passed thru several who could not answer my questions, I pressed on and finally got sopmeone who could.
Mostly I was interested in application, mixing of activator and product properties. Perhaps you should send that sample back for an explanation?

[sdowney717]

Anyone buying a polyurethane coating that will be exposed to UV needs to use the aliphatic version. The aromatic is cheaper but not UV proof.

http://www.durabakcompany.com/marine.htm
Durabak is a similar product and has proven itself for durability. If believe the customer letter you can see that it stands up to severe abuse.