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J. Dillon
11-30-2004, 03:57 PM
Were you as a kid ? :( Do you "spank" yours ? :eek:

JD
http://www.ctnow.com/news/yahoo/hc-dcfspanked1130.artnov30,1,3549520.story?coll=hc-aol-yahoo-nws-hed

LeeG
11-30-2004, 04:42 PM
I wasn't. Actually in the place I grew up I felt out of place because my parents didn't hit me like my friends parents did. But I also felt out of place because we didn't go to church and they did.

Ian McColgin
11-30-2004, 05:28 PM
My folk do not believe in striking dogs, horses or children. I, however, absolutely did not respond to any form of correction and my father instituted spanking for me only.

It was quite measured, determined, and far more rational than the sentencing guidelines now in use by the judiciary. Dad's theory was that since nothing made a behavioral difference to me, spanking was the fastest way to simply restore the family balance of justice. Besides, if confined to my room I usually contrived some even more outrageous mischief. Mom and Dad did not believe in short term imprisonment anyhow.

It should be noted that I was never prone to tantrums of outbursts so the modern idea of a
'time out' was irrelevant for me. An early version of the time out was quite good for my next brother who, like my sister and youngest brother and the dogs and horses, was never spanked or struck.

There is no question in my mind that while some children are relativly incorrigable, spanking is usually a tool for emotionally weak parents who lack the moral authority it takes to use non-violent methods.

To this day I still have little respect for authority, temporal or spiritual.

McB
11-30-2004, 05:42 PM
Discipline is the key word here. Spanking is a form of punishment that at times is very effective for parrents who discipline (train) thier children. In 15 years of pastoring and working closely with Police and DSS EVERY case of a parrent going too far with spanking involved a parent who "did not believe in spanking" but in frustration (due to a lack of discipline) they got angery and hit the child in a wrong way.

htom
11-30-2004, 05:45 PM
I'm told that I was spanked. I don't remeber it.

I spanked my younger siblings at times, when they "needed" it. They deny that this happened.

I suspect that "spank" covers a very large range of physical encounter and this is the cause of the uproar. Those who are beating children should stop. Those who are demanding that children be raised without pain should also stop.

NormMessinger
11-30-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
To this day I still have little respect for authority, temporal or spiritual.Phyllis says, "McCulgin, you are my hero." Harrumph! I though I was. Oh well, you're wecome.

Donn
11-30-2004, 05:55 PM
When I was bad, which was seldom, my Mother sent me to the basement to "wait until your father gets home."

I played with my trains, or played ping-pong against the wall while I waited. When he got home, he'd come downstairs, and give me a loud lecture. Then he'd take off his 1/2" wide segmented metallic belt ( this was the 50's), and wail away, in a measured way, on a duffle bag stuffed with winter (or summer) clothes, while I cried loudly enough for my Mother and sisters to hear.

I whacked my kids now and again, but I don't any more, since my daughter has 2 kids of her own, and my son is 32, 2" taller than me, and can kick my butt.

rbgarr
11-30-2004, 07:03 PM
Never spanked children on their butts, but my wife did use (on the very rare occasions necessary) a firm slap on the back of the hand and a calm, consistent explanation of why behavior was unacceptable when the children were growing up, followed by an immediate return to normal behavior (on our part, i.e., no bringing it up again/making them feel guilty, etc.) as though it was just a normal part of learning.

My method was to tell them I was going to count to three, and if they didn't stop doing (whatever).... and never explained what would happen as a consequence. I never had to count past two. This has become an ongoing joke among the children when they see us now. They said it was very effective in getting their attention.

We may only have been lucky, but our children were remarkably problem free behavior-wise and we remain close to them even now that they are long grown and on their own.

[ 11-30-2004, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-30-2004, 07:09 PM
Yes I was, and no, I didn't.

I guess it was the norm back in my childhood days, but it was wrong then too.

TGP
11-30-2004, 07:14 PM
The worst whuppins I got were in school. Some of the teachers back then were just plain sadistic. :eek:

bamamick
11-30-2004, 07:20 PM
Yes, I was, and yes, I did. In all cases it was only once or twice and only if a lesson needed to be taught. I must say that I have been very fortunate with my children. Corporal punishment was very seldom needed with any of them.

Mickey Lake

Concordia..41
11-30-2004, 07:22 PM
Yes I was, and woe was the day when I let on that Mother's house slipper didn't hurt :( Serious tactical error on my part... :rolleyes:

Seriously, corporal punishments were rare - and certainly well earned and deserved. And these many years later I remember most of them, and the underlying crimes. (Which were not repeated)

- M

uncas
11-30-2004, 07:29 PM
Very rare in my family...We had to cut our own apple switches...the worst part...by the time it actually got to the spanking stage,,,it was really unneccessary...We were basket cases...
So, if I remember...twice...once on Hurricane Island before Outward Bound...and can't remember the second time. Oh yea...I sassed my mother back...big no no!

McB
11-30-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
To this day I still have little respect for authority, temporal or spiritual.

Phyllis says, "McCulgin, you are my hero." Harrumph! I though I was. Oh well, you're wecome.

Its obvious that a couple of you didn't get enough spankings. To question Authority and hold them accountable is a good thing. (Thats why republicans swept the elections) To not respect is a sign of an undisciplined life.

Joe (SoCal)
11-30-2004, 09:16 PM
I was
I don't

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-30-2004, 09:43 PM
My mother had a wooden yardstick if we got out of line. One day she broke it over my behind and I made the mistake of laughing about it. She came home the next day with a metal one. :eek:
I didn't mess with her after that, I knew she ment business. ;) She still has it and gets it out if I get lippy. :D

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-30-2004, 10:24 PM
Actually, I got spanked quite a lot. One time, when I was late for going out on the boat one weekend, my dad was so mad he broke a broomstick across my arm. I couldn't lift it for several days.

When I was fifteen, just after my mother died, he grabbed me one night I was upset and supposed to go out to dinner at a neighbours. I grabbed him by the throat and threw him up against the wall. I pulled my fist back and told him he was never to put a hand on me again. He never did.

When kids get hit, they learn fundamentally that violence is a way to solve problems. It's not. I don't doubt that some people learn from corporal punishment. My point is that a lot of people (yep, kids are people)don't learn anything, and that there are lots of other ways to learn a lesson. It takes more time to teach a child rules with words and actions, but it's a lot better. I never had to touch my daughter. She knew when I was mad at her, and I would explain why.

I surround myself now with people who are very anti violent and even naive about violence and anger. I treasure that trait in people, because I know very little about peace, and I learn from them. I'm protective of them in a very private way. My life from 15 to my early 30's had what I consider (and most of you would too) to be horrific violence in it. I changed, because I'm an adult, and I can make choices. I would never subject a kid to it, and woe betide the adult that ever struck a child in front of me. ;)

Jack Heinlen
11-30-2004, 10:33 PM
I don't think kids ought to be SPANKED. Women on the other hand, um...oh...um never mind. ;) :D

But seriously, a swat on the behind, to get their attention when they are being totally obstreperous, is one thing; a serious spanking, with tools perhaps :eek: , is a different matter. It seems to me such punishment is often an expression of parental anger, rather than good discipline. But what do I know?

J. Dillon
11-30-2004, 10:37 PM
There are times when a child should be wacked( on the butt). Like when a 2 yr old breaks away from a parent and darts into traffic. I don't think any scolding would be effective to learn the needed lesson.
I was hit plenty when a kid, by both parents, but the most severe was by RC.nuns, vicious to say the least and some times without real provacation.

I did wack my son a bit but never my daughter,she never really needed it.

JD

alteran
11-30-2004, 10:39 PM
I didn't do my paperwork today for my bookkeepers monthly summary. I should be spanked and probably will be tommorrow.
Its no fun, shes married.

Shang
11-30-2004, 11:18 PM
When our kid was very small I explained to him that there were only two circumstances in which I would spank him:
(1) If he did something stupidly life-threatening, like running into the street.
(2) If he drove me crazy, since crazy people do strange things.

I only recall giving one spanking.

But now he's bigger than I am, so I'd better not drive HIM crazy...

John C. Gresham
11-30-2004, 11:34 PM
We got spanked for one thing growing up: Lying.

I didn't learn my lesson until later in life.

I don't have kids but I'd spank 'em if they needed it...with the same stipulations. You lie, you get spanked on the bottom.

The trick? Yell louder. They stop sooner than if you try to get rebellious and be quiet.

skuthorp
12-01-2004, 03:01 AM
I did a bit but that was all dad knew from his father and grandfather. Add the mental problems he brought home from WW2, shock treatment, etc I understand. I will say though the prospect and the theatre of it was always worse than the fact.
As for myself I have no children, but a strategic whack or two with a cricket bat at a new school cured my bullying troubles forever!

cs
12-01-2004, 06:30 AM
As a child I had my share of whuppings both from Mom and Dad and even the school. Mom would make us cut a switch and Dad used his belt or if I was real bad it was the leather barber's strap. And by the way running in circles while your dad holds your arm while spanking is not a good idea. :rolleyes:

As a student in the public school system I had the privalage of experiance all of the forms of punishment that they have to offer. From the smack on the back of the hand, to the eraser thrown at you, to the paddeling in the hall and even the after school detention. At least I was consitant, I always recieved bad grades in conduct. :D

But I guess it paid off. I now have a healthy respect for authority.

My daughter on the other hand has had a few smacks on the butt with the palm of my hand, but never the belt. Don't know if I can handle that. I finally understand what it means when they always said "This will hurt me more than it does you."

My daughter is the complete opposite of me when it comes to getting in trouble. Not to say she don't do things that could get her in trouble, she just is better at it than me and on top of that she is cute and charming.

One of my friends was her teacher last year and he said she knows how to take you right to the edge and than she backs off and disarms you with her charm. Great kid. smile.gif

Chad

Mrleft8
12-01-2004, 07:03 AM
Jack! You frisky old dawg you! I'm sure that crew member you posted a picture of would be happy to give you a good paddling if yer pining for the good old days! :D :D :D tongue.gif

km gresham
12-01-2004, 07:25 AM
Yes and yes. It's a very quick way to get the child focused on the behavior, on the instruction and it's over quickly. Spankings weren't required often, because a child who knows he will be spanked for misbehavior can be corrected very quickly with "that look". An infrequent spanking is a very effective tool in maintaining order in a home, as children understand that disruptive behavior will bring swift and unpleasant response.

And I have been known to pop a smart mouth with my hand. A light pop is all it takes to remind a mouthy child to whom they are speaking.

I have observed that physical punishment was required from me much more than from their father. They responded very quickly to a sharp tone from him. I continue to believe that it's because children know from birth that Mom won't kill them, but they're never quite sure about Dad! ;)

What really drives me crazy is parents who constantly threaten to spank, send to time out or whatever, but never actually do anything! You can tell the kids have this all figured out by the time they're 2 because they never listen to anything the parent says. :rolleyes:

[ 12-01-2004, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

Joe (SoCal)
12-01-2004, 08:30 AM
My longer take on spanking.

I was spanked, I also went to a hardcore parochial school in the Bronx, ST JOHNS. During the 70's they had Nuns, Priests and brothers. The brothers were mostly Bronx Westies or Irish mob wannabes. Many were given the choice buy the local Judge, Join the service, and go to Viet Nam, Go to jail, or join the brotherhood. The brothers were in charge of corporal punishment, ya get the drift. We had a big kid bit of a slow child in one of my home room classes. He was big as a house though. This bad a$$ brother smacked him across the face for giggling ( guess who was the kid who made him laugh :rolleyes: ) Anyway this kid went psycho beat the the living crap out of the brother. When the other brothers came into the room he nearly took them all on.

Later on in my life I was a fighter. Kid said anything on the school yard or my block I popped him first asked questions later. Got my scrawny little butt beat good too at times. But always jumped back up and finished the job. I would actually wear the older bigger kids down by sheer determination, literally you would have to kill me to get me to stop coming at you if we were fighting. Same goes fro corporal punishment - yup I was the wise ass that would tell the brothers or my step dad with a stiff upper lip "Is that all you got?"

One day when my step dad came at me taunting me when I was 12 "Come on hit me!" I said with a smirk "I will just give me a few years", and I did. When I was 17 I was benching close to 300 lb. and strong as an ox. He tried to pull his usual stunt and I lifted his fat a$$ and threw him into a wall of photos. He stumbled to his feet and I was there standing like Dempsy ready for round one. I raised my fist and ...... he FLINCHED. I said I had been waiting all this time and you flinch. I told him he discussed me and to get out of my face. I moved out of the house shortly after that.

Later on in life fighting was a big problem with me. I came very close to killing people with my fists. I grew up with hitting and when I could hit back I did. It took a lot of realization and growing up and counseling to understand this and never need to fight again.

My best friend has two boys one slightly younger than Tess. He is a great guy but he is one of those passive aggressive parents that talks to his kids. He talks to them like he is there friend not the parent. He does not enforce punishments. And WHEN he gets frustrated that the boy does it again he takes him into the room and hits him. Two minutes later the boy comes out and says I'm sorry and my friend forgives him and 5 minutes late the kid is a monster gain, in the room they go. :(

Now get this, he meets Tess for the first time and what does he do when she will not do what he wants??? He HITS her. This is his learned behavior, Tess looks at him as if he has 2 heads, she does not understand. But then she uses the ULTIMATE little girl attack the EAR SPLITTING HIGH PITCH SCREAM !!!. The boy gabs his ears cowers in the corner like he was with with a sonic stun gun. He never hits Tess again. That combined with me telling him he can hit anything else in the word he want but if he EVER hits my daughter again he will have to deal with me. Ya know what I didn't have to hit him but the tone and the quality of my conviction and not talking to him like he was my friend but as a older parent he seemed to GET it. It all just clicked the boundaries were formed. The rest of the time all I would have to do is say his name in that DADDY voice and he listened to me. His mother was observing this and told my friend that he should pay attention.

Anyway I don't hit anything anymore cept nails in wood smile.gif

MJC
12-01-2004, 10:34 AM
Ouch, this is a sore subject with me.

I was routinely razor stropped by my dad. My eardrum was broken by an open-handed slap.

My mom chased me around the house with a wooden spoon, whacking at anything she could hit.

Teachers used switches on the backs of my hands. One shop teacher wailed away on my butt, bent over his desk, in front of the class, with a paddle made from fine grained, hard rock maple, with holes drilled in it designed to whistle. A chemistry teacher broke his meter stick over my head, then charged me for it at the end of the year.

No one will ever again lay a hand on me or mine. Ever.

Much harder to deal with, over the long term, was the verbal and psychological abuse.

My kids were always disciplined with a technique that emphasizes that the behaviour is unacceptable, but that the child is loved:

1. Me: "This particular behaviour (explained) of yours is unacceptable. If it continues, I will be very upset. Do you want me to be very upset?"

2. Child: (meekly): "No."

3. Me: "What are you going to do to keep me from being very upset?"

4. Child: "Stop what I was doing."

5. Me: "I love you."

It only works if the child loves and respects you back. I tried this technique once when I was teaching, the kid said "I don't give a f__k what you think." I quit teaching shortly thereafter.

km gresham
12-01-2004, 10:48 AM
That approach might work on a meek child. Most of them will give the answer you seek, then laugh about it later. I have seen maybe 2 children that approach will work on. I didn't have any of them. But my boys rarely required a spanking because they knew the rules, the boundaries were clear and they knew they would certainly get a spanking if the situation called for it. One threat of a spanking meant the next action would be a spanking if the behavior continued, so usually the behavior ceased before a spanking was delivered. That was the whole point, after all. smile.gif

Spankings are only effective to a certain age, though. Once a child can reason pretty well and respond to loss of privileges or property that is the better course.

uncas
12-01-2004, 10:55 AM
I think Km's point about clear boundaries make a lot of sense...No, I do not know regarding my own kids as I don't have any but.
Back to our educational system BRIEFLY.
The kids at this school outside Houston did not know the boundaries and did not know what the punishment were going to be if rules/regs. were broken.
One year, a student stole from her peers, lied cheated...blah...blah...blah...She remained at the school with a hand slap or two.
A second kid stole a gallon of ice cream ( school property ) and was immediately kicked out.
The outcome...or lesson learned from these two episodes..." If you steal from your peers, lie, cheat, it is okay. If you steal from the school you are gonna get kicked ot.
End of the educational system
Growing up, everyone in my family knew what to expect if we broke the rules...We knew the consequences. We did not, for the most part, break them.

uncas
12-01-2004, 11:02 AM
Other side of the coin to support above post.
I taught in England during summer school. Had a student who failed my course during the year and had to take it again during the summer.
Last day...grades were done...exams were over. I tracked the student down and told Matt...You passed...barely...but passed...Go home and I'll see you next semester...Don't do anything stupid and get kicked out...He promised he wouldn't
Well, promises are not often kept...The next morning he comes up to me and said Dr. J...I blew it...I did not listen to you...I knew that if I broke one of the major rules, I would get kicked out...I did and I was...I tried...I knew and I am sorry that I did not listen to you.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-01-2004, 12:09 PM
Yes, very rarely, and yes, very rarely.

Hughman
12-01-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
Actually, I got spanked quite a lot. One time, when I was late for going out on the boat one weekend, my dad was so mad he broke a broomstick across my arm. I couldn't lift it for several days.Peter, you were not spanked: you were beaten.

There is a world of difference.

km gresham
12-01-2004, 01:10 PM
Yes he was beaten. A spanking involves a hand, a belt a switch or something that will sting, but not damage, applied to the well padded rear end of a child a few times.

I'm also of the opinion that step-parents and especially boyfriends or girlfriends of the parents should never spank the child. (The rare exception to that is if the step parent has helped raise the child from infancy or a toddler - even then it can be dicey).

I can't imagine letting a man other than Charles or a very close relative (grandfather or uncle if absolutely necessary) physically discipline our sons.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-01-2004, 01:18 PM
I continue to believe that it's because children know from birth that Mom won't kill them, but they're never quite sure about Dad! :rolleyes:

Yep, Hughman, you are right, that is a beating. There isn't much difference in my mind... because corporal punishment is about pain.

Read Joe's post. I understand his journey and then some. Regardless of your culture, language, religion, or outlook on life, everyone understands two things: FEAR, and PAIN. It is the only two universal understandings among human beings. Not everyone understands love, or fair play, or courage or honour or any of those things. They do understand the basic two tho. ;)

If we can teach our children to deal with problems differently than by inflicting fear and pain on someone, that's progress.

km gresham
12-01-2004, 01:26 PM
Peter, that was a joke!

However anybody who has ever had a child or known a child or observed a child knows that 9 times out of 10 a child will obey Dad much quicker than they will Mom. I don't know if it's the deeper voice or the tone, but unless Daddy is notoriously weak on discipline the kids will hasten to obey when he speaks.

Chris Coose
12-01-2004, 01:59 PM
There is nothing a child of mine could do that would deserve me raising a hand to them.
Nothing.

Garrett Lowell
12-01-2004, 02:12 PM
Agreed. I can reason with my daughter; I believe she's that smart at 3 1/2 (gets it from Mom, thankfully). I rarely have to resort to timeouts for her anymore. My son is only 18 months, and so it's timeout for him, with an explanation, which works quite well. Hopefully, he takes after his Mom, as well. Please please please, let them both take after their Mother.
What really helps us out is that my wife stays home with the kids. We involve the kids in nearly everything we do, and we (well, I) never raise my voice with them. They are loved, and more importantly, know they are loved and are very involved in our lives.

km gresham
12-01-2004, 02:20 PM
Let me know how that not raising your voice works when they're 13 or 14. That's when they decide you aren't smart enough walk and talk at the same time, and it's a miracle something hasn't eaten you! ;)

You'll yell and your hair will fall out and you'll be convinced that 13 will last forever. But it only lasts until they're 25. :D

George Roberts
12-01-2004, 02:21 PM
I don't recall and I don't recall.

uncas
12-01-2004, 02:23 PM
Garrett...although I am teasing 3.5 yrs...Heck, you gotta a long way to go...Again, just pulling your leg.
Anyone that can raise a child these days with TV, computer toys and have them being well adjusted...My hat is off to them. ;)

Garrett Lowell
12-01-2004, 02:25 PM
I'm hoping, Karen, that "the look" (my raised left eyebrow) is all that they'll need, even at that age! It seems to do the job now. I don't lose my temper, much to my wife's aggravation. She tries, though. I'm sure these are the easy years, and I'm enjoying every moment. I'm sure the hardest part is yet to come. A good foundation, though.........

uncas
12-01-2004, 02:29 PM
Bottom line
Get the kids on a boat fast...I think I was gimballed on the stove in diapers. Boating is now in my blood...seasickness notwithstanding...
Actually never get seasick anymore...once or twice in my youth...but a heck of a long time ago.

km gresham
12-01-2004, 02:30 PM
Garrett, you're right - you're smack in the middle of the easy years - enjoy them! The hard ones are good too - just harder. smile.gif

This is just my experience, but the kids I know who were never spanked were not enjoyed much by anyone other than their parents. And some of them weren't enjoyed by their parents much, either.

Understand, spankings are RARE. Not daily or weekly occurences. If they are administered that often something isn't right. A swat on the behind doesn't damage a child's self esteem or their will. It focuses them on you and what you are telling them. When it's done, everybody is clear on the rules and expectations and everybody still loves each other.

[ 12-01-2004, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

uncas
12-01-2004, 02:34 PM
I DO NOT want to ruffle any feathers or create meyhem. It appears that most who are responding to this thread have a partner...i.e., there is a family...Anyone out there having to raise kids alone? Any differences in the approach? How about step children...those that are not biologically yours? I would think this would make a difference either way.
Divorce is resting at around 53% which means that there are a lot of parents raising step children.
Not a question of morality etc. so please do not take it that way.
Again, I am just asking!

[ 12-01-2004, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

Garrett Lowell
12-01-2004, 02:36 PM
uncas- just saw your reply.
It's tough, with TV. I'd like nothing better than to tie it to my Wrangler and drag it until it's nothing. Lost that battle, though. Still, the only channel on is Noggin, and only for Oobi and Miffy. One day, though, that thing is toast.
The toys these days are a bit overdone, as well. It's getting harder and harder to find good toys that make no noise and have no flashing lights. I'd like to just let the kids use their imagination. I think that's why my kids nearly always prefer the box, or a bowl, or a stick, or a book. The wooden blocks and the wooden Tinker Toys are the most played with, followed closely by the matchbox cars and the dolls.

Chris Coose
12-01-2004, 02:37 PM
There are thousands of alternatives to violence.

But according to some you need to hit them to get them to be more social?

Mine would not fall into that judgement.

BTW mine are:
28 YO female public school teacher.
24 YO male farmer.
7 YO female hell raiser and first mate.

Alan D. Hyde
12-01-2004, 02:41 PM
Garrett, if you can't take the plastic distractions from the children, take the children from the plastic distractions.

I mean: take them out on the water, every chance you get, with your spouse, if you can possibly get her out there.

Time spent afloat is not, you know, deducted from our allotted span on earth. :D

Alan

[ 12-01-2004, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

Garrett Lowell
12-01-2004, 02:46 PM
Certainly, Karen, my children are disciplined. Consistently, firmly, and with great love, when and if it's necessary, and always qualified with an explanation.

I will not be my father, if I can help it. And I can.

And, uncas, I am working on the boating! I will definitely be teaching sailing and seamanship, as soon as possible. As a pre-emptive measure, they will also learn proper firearms handling, just in case they are in a questionable situation, so that they know exactly what and what not to do.

uncas
12-01-2004, 02:48 PM
Garrett...If I didn't know better, you ARE my father...Either that or you read his child rearing manual. :D

High C
12-01-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Chris Coose:
There are thousands of alternatives to violence.
Spanking is NOT violence. :rolleyes:

Garrett Lowell
12-01-2004, 03:02 PM
uncas, I hope that's a compliment! That is how I will take it.

I hope my non-violent methods of discipline work. I guess I'll find out soon enough.

PeterSibley
12-01-2004, 03:07 PM
Yes ,I was, suprisingly seldom considering my parents upbringing.I did smack my children ,not often, but very much regret it.A bit of wisdom on my behalf would have avoided it. :(

School however was another matter.We were regularly beaten with a cane ,a very unpleasant business which we (boys) learned to ignor.Interestingly criticism from a respected teacher had far more impact."Respected" being the operative word.

Chris Coose
12-01-2004, 03:18 PM
Spanking is NOT violence. In your home.

Garrett Lowell
12-01-2004, 03:25 PM
I didn't see the first post, asking the question.
Yes, I had my share of the switch (damn that willow tree) and the belt and the hand and the coat hanger. And snatched out of bed with my two older sisters and two younger brothers and threatened to have my fingers cut off, and to be dropped off down the road, and told that they were leaving and never coming back, and told I was stupid. That verbal stuff was so much worse than the physical.

No, I don't hit my kids, or spank them, or whatever you want to call it.

High C
12-01-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Chris Coose:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Spanking is NOT violence. In your home.</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
;)

When it crosses over into violence, or is delivered by an angry, out of control person, it should be called something other than spanking. Lots of fine people were brought up by loving parents who dealt appropriately measured spankings when needed.

To argue against spanking may not do much to stem the tide of abuse. I don't believe that spanking is a "gateway drug" which leads to abuse. An abuser is going to abuse. :mad: I don't think they're the same thing.

htom
12-01-2004, 03:39 PM
Willows, belts, coat hangers, ... are not spanking, at least in my opinion. Spankings are with the open hand.

I've got a very bright nephew who has (had, then, when he was four) a reputation of being three handfuls for any babysitter, a real hell-raiser who would not obey, being raised with "NO SPANKING". Left in charge of him, I was reading the paper when he came into the living room. "Uncle Htom?"
"Yes, A?"
"Do you believe in spanking?"
"Sometimes, what have you done?"
"Nothing. I think I'll behave."
And he did.

uncas
12-01-2004, 04:23 PM
Garrett!
Yes it was! He was a great man and FAIR!
jamj

[ 12-01-2004, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

km gresham
12-01-2004, 04:24 PM
htom, that's why those children never spanked by parents will obey other adults more quickly - can't be sure what they will do. They've got the parents' number, though. ;) Children are very smart little critters. If you're not careful they will be running the show in no time, and no matter how smart, they just aren't up to that task! smile.gif

km gresham
12-01-2004, 04:33 PM
Garrett, that wasn't spanking either.

A spanking involves a very loving parent, a few taps on the rear and reassurance that the child is loved, but bad behavior will not be tolerated without punishment. I think when someone has been abused the line between what is normal discipline and what is violence is blurred. I don't see any way around that. I was spanked, usually with a hand, occasionally (maybe once) with Daddy's belt and a couple of times a switch. We were always warned first and the spanking rarely had to be meeted out.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-01-2004, 06:07 PM
A question to those who spank their children.... Is spanking supposed to hurt?

brad9798
12-01-2004, 06:15 PM
It's intended to get their attention when non-obstructive means fail ...

I was spanked when I deserved it ... as are my children ... mostly just a swat on the a$$.

Too many parents try to be their kids' friend ... we are parents ... not friends. They have to understand that, then we can become buddies.

I have too neighbors that think me a monster for swatting my son on his butt one day outside ... they lectured me ... yet, BOTH have heathen jerk-off kids that do nothing but terrorize the other kids and their respective parents ...

Kids NEED discipline ... kids WANT discipline.

Folks who believe otherwise are foolish.

Now, what type of discipline??? I know what works for our household, and I cannot, and will not comment on other people's discipline ... only on their lack thereof- as aforementioned.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-01-2004, 06:20 PM
A question to those who spank their children.... Is spanking supposed to hurt?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

brad9798
12-01-2004, 06:23 PM
It's supposed to get their attention ... take that however you like, PMJ.

Hurt? Yea, sometimes ... The emotional/psych power of a swat is far more effective than any physical sting.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-01-2004, 06:36 PM
question answered. If you did in public in Ontario, you would probably get arrested.

Donn
12-01-2004, 06:41 PM
I don't think I'd take what's allowed in public in Ontario, as a standard for child-rearing, or any other part of life. :rolleyes:

McB
12-01-2004, 07:43 PM
Peter,
Spanking may hurt a little. A sting perhaps. If it leaves a bruise it was wrong, Just like giving a child a "time out" in thier room with thier Game-Boy. The purpose is to make them aware of consequences. Not to damage their body or thier Spirit, just their ego.

TGP
12-01-2004, 07:53 PM
What I'd like to know is how many of you adults enjoy a good spanking from time to time. :eek: You all sure seem to be interested in it enough. Ever take a walk on the dark side? You know, wips, chains......corsets? :D High heels? Black stockings.......

brad9798
12-01-2004, 08:25 PM
I couldn't care less what the laws were/are in Ontario ...

Bleeding heart laws don't correct the problem ... they just punish the 'regular joe.'

Like when they lowered blood alcohol level to .08 here in many US states ... did it keep drunks off the road? No! But it did screw up many a folk that had three or four drinks and were stopped at a checkpoint ...

Scott Rosen
12-01-2004, 08:37 PM
I can relate to Joe's story. I was spanked by my mother a few times with a wooden spoon, by my dad maybe once, if at all. None of it was memorable, and it didn't add up to much one way or the other. All it did was make me more angry and contemptuous.

But after my parents split and I was left with my mother (here's the step-parent thing), my mother had a live-in lover who later became her husband. My mother's husband (I would never dignify him by calling him a step-father) used to beat his kids until they were cowering in pain and humiliation. It was disgusting and terrifying. My mother assured me that he would never beat me, and that turned out to be true, although it was cold comfort at the time. To this day, his own children have disowned him and won't have any contact with him. He hasn't seen his grandchildren in many years. I, too, have no contact. He used to carry a Colt .45 with him regularly and keep a loaded .38 revolver in the drawer next to his bed. He would brag about the time he killed a guy in the Bronx. Honest to god, I don't know what I would have done if he beat on me. When you're a kid, it's hard enough to stand up to an adult who intimidates you with his fists; it's quite another to stand up to an adult who carries a gun and brags about the times he's used it.

My real dad, on the other hand, disciplined with love, and it worked. If I knew he was disappointed in me or mad at me, it would be more effective than a thousand spankings.

I have two daughters. I've never had the need to spank them. I would consider myself a failure if I had to resort to hitting them. Although I can't see any serious objection to a rare and non-damaging slap on the behind to get a kid's attention in a critical situation. But pre-meditated spanking isn't for me.

[ 12-01-2004, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

David Tabor (sailordave)
12-01-2004, 09:04 PM
One swat on the butt (only) is NOT spanking. After the initial swat to get their attention it is just venting on the part of the spanker...

And I can't remember the last time I swatted either of my two. But they know I mean it when I say stop it or I'll . . .!

George.
12-02-2004, 04:24 AM
If it leaves a bruise it was wrong Just tie a matress around them before you beat the living crap out of them, no bruises.

The most interesting thing about this thread is the correlation between the folks who were spanked and now support spanking as the most effective way to raise a child, and the ones who think there is nothing wrong with torturing suspects on the Gitmo thread... ;)

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-02-2004, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
Yes, very rarely, and yes, very rarely.I think I should expand on that. I mean a slap on the wrist; this has enough shock value to get a small child's attention. I have never actually spanked a child.

MJC
12-02-2004, 06:19 AM
Spanking is an act of physical violence applied to the body of a helpless victim. The primary lesson learned is one of "If you don't do what I want, it's O.K. for me to use violence on you." An additional lesson learned is that it's O.K. to abuse your 'authority'. A major lesson unlearned is problem resolution without resorting to violence.

Love is all you need.

Joe (SoCal)
12-02-2004, 06:24 AM
Thanks' Scott whew you sound like you had one doozy of a Step Monster, but a pretty powerful mom in yer corner.

The old adage holds true violence is the last resort of a limited mind. When it comes to disciplining my child I can always come up with way more creative ways of getting her attention and putting the fear of God into her without ever raising my hand. The minute you resort to hitting what are you TEACHING the child? EVERY parent that I know that resorts to spanking has a problem child in one way or another. Now what is the cause and effect relationship of that ?

Tess is a great kid. She is very well behaved. If anything a little over dramatic when I reprimand her. "Ohh daddy why must you yell" ( when Im only talking ) or as soon as she does something she knows she shouldn't " Please daddy, I'm scared, I'm sorry " - I haven't even said anything LOL The truth is she is a good kid and all I have to do to make her dramatically hug my wife's skirt is a raised eyebrow and say a firm "Tess" Being that she is such a sensitive and dramatic child I can NOT IMAGING what a slap would do to her mind. She trusts me to protect her, she trust me to talk to when she has a problem, Im the go to guy in her life now. We have fun we play. We are friendly but we know the fact that I will never be her friend because she can have a lot of friends and only one dad. The parent child boundaries are firm. What would happen if I ever slapped her. All that would be shattered. The man that she trust HURT her, think of the message that gives. I never want to damage that trust and point of fact I never have to. My mind is not limited to spanking as a last resort.

uncas
12-02-2004, 07:58 AM
This threqad has been about children, spanking, respect for children etc.children learning right from wrong etc.
About ten years ago, I found an unbound little pamphlet...about 18 pages..." A letter From A Minister to the Bishop of His Dioces.
Eighteen pages of rant about the decadence of the youth...an increasing lack of respect for authority or for parents...etc...In some ways, it appeared that it was written yesterday...Nope...Feb 26, 1691. Perhaps things don't change.

km gresham
12-02-2004, 08:07 AM
They don't. smile.gif

McB
12-02-2004, 08:44 AM
An observation!

MANY, MANY wonderful people have been raised in homes that used spanking as a form of punishment, and many wonderful people have been raised in homes that did not. Those who abused spanking had a negative effect on thier children. Some of those who did not spank had a negative effect on thier children by letting live an undisciplined life. Like everything else, one can abuse anything.
This brings us back too the typical Lib. Vs Con. argument. The lib. sees abuse and blames those who do not abuse. The Con. Says punish the abusers not those who do not.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-02-2004, 08:52 AM
Verbal abuse of a child can be worse than a slap on the wrist, imho.

km gresham
12-02-2004, 08:57 AM
Yes it can.

Garrett Lowell
12-02-2004, 08:58 AM
I don't see it in a political light or political terms. I choose not spanking because I am simply trying to break the circle of my own life. And, quite honestly, I'm afraid of myself, of my past, of going too far, even just a little, accidentally.

I bet that's how it starts. And this is my method of stopping it. Again, I may be wrong. I want my children to fear me because they love me and respect me. Not because they're afraid of me physically. Is that naive?

uncas
12-02-2004, 09:00 AM
Andrew...Verbal abuse goes beyond the child...It's in the workplace...it is between spouses...All suffer!

Joe (SoCal)
12-02-2004, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by km gresham:
They don't. smile.gif A little OLDER
Perseverance is more prevailing than violence; and many things which cannot be overcome when they are together, yield themselves up when taken little by little.
Plutarch (46 AD - 120 AD)

More current
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
Isaac Asimov, Salvor Hardin in "Foundation"

There are more pleasant things to do than beat up people.
Muhammad Ali (1942 - )

All quotes hold true with children AND at Gitmo

km gresham
12-02-2004, 09:17 AM
Everyone should be very careful of the words they speak. They can't be taken back or changed.

Garrett, I think it's naive, but it's understandable. Little children are easy to control with a sharp word, but as they get older they need to understand clearly who is in charge and a teeny bit of fear is involved in that relationship. Not terrible fear, just a bit of fear of a whack on the butt that will sting if they get too far out of line.

As they get older there are more effective ways of directing behavior than a swat on the backside. Little children have a very short attention span - older children understand longer term punishment - losing a bike for a week or two, for example. They can remember at the end of the week why the bike was taken away.

If you don't think you can control the action, then it is better not to start, but be aware that as they get older, they get much better at pushing your buttons and the limits. As I said, they are very, very smart. And it's necessary for them to learn to manipulate adults from the very beginning in order to have their needs met. (Crying gets a bottle, or a diaper change, or a toy - crying harder gets it faster) smile.gif

McB
12-02-2004, 11:57 AM
Garret
A wise man knows his own weekness and takes steps to avoid them. Now that is the key to success in this life! Your children will bennefit from your wisdom.

[ 12-02-2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: McB ]

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-02-2004, 12:21 PM
I find it interesting how closely political sentiment follows a lot of other things, including this discussion.

brad9798
12-02-2004, 01:25 PM
I find it interesting that folks without kids always seem to have the textbook, politically correct answers as to how to rais them.

km gresham
12-02-2004, 01:28 PM
Charles and I have raised 3 and we don't have all the answers! There aren't any easy answers - if there were we'd get the instruction book in the hospital. smile.gif

We just all muddle through, do our best and hope all turns out well. Mostly it does. smile.gif

John C. Gresham
12-02-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by km gresham:
They don't. smile.gif A little OLDER
Perseverance is more prevailing than violence; and many things which cannot be overcome when they are together, yield themselves up when taken little by little.
Plutarch (46 AD - 120 AD)

More current
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
Isaac Asimov, Salvor Hardin in "Foundation"

There are more pleasant things to do than beat up people.
Muhammad Ali (1942 - )

All quotes hold true with children AND at Gitmo</font>[/QUOTE]What has Gitmo got to do with anything on this thread?

Harry Miller
12-02-2004, 01:52 PM
Eighteen pages of rant about the decadence of the youth...an increasing lack of respect for authority or for parents...etc...In some ways, it appeared that it was written yesterday...Nope...Feb 26, 1691. Perhaps things don't change. Children's behavior may not have changed much over the years but our attitudes toward spanking are changing, at least up here in enlightened Ontario. When I was a child I was spanked as my father determined it to be necessary. What made it alright was his belief that he was doing it for my benefit. I may not have liked it at the time but even then I agreed with his objective. For my own kids spanking was not an option because I couldn't believe it was for their benefit.

Chris Coose
12-02-2004, 04:01 PM
My real dad, on the other hand, disciplined with love, and it worked. If I knew he was disappointed in me or mad at me, it would be more effective than a thousand spankings.
There we go Scott.It takes a bit of creativity to consequence a child in a way that reflects the act.

Spanking is quick and dirty and requires no creativity, no deeper meaning lesson is achieved. A blast of violent intimidation.

Get creative young parents out there. Consider a consequence that fits the problem.

It's hard to bend the mind around an adukt striking a child and the kid understanding it as a loving message.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-02-2004, 04:13 PM
find it interesting that folks without kids always seem to have the textbook, politically correct answers Who has commented that doesn't have children? :confused:

High C
12-02-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Harry Miller:
...When I was a child I was spanked as my father determined it to be necessary. What made it alright was his belief that he was doing it for my benefit. I may not have liked it at the time but even then I agreed with his objective...And look what a great guy you turned out to be!
smile.gif

Scott Rosen
12-02-2004, 04:32 PM
It really is pretty simple.

Kids, especially young ones, believe that their parents are gods. Kids want to know that their parents love and approve of them. When they do something wrong and you are clear about your displeasure, you can control your kids by love.

But you have to consistent. You need to impose immediate consequences for bad behavior. If your kids start to feel that they can manipulate you, they become contemptuous and hard to control.

If your kids can provoke you into losing control and hitting them, you will lose their respect and gain their contempt. Even if you feel as if you will lose control, you must never show it except in the most extreme circumstances like matters of life and death.

It works with my kids. Of course, YMMV.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-02-2004, 04:35 PM
Aw come on... that sounds complicated.. Just give em "a pop on the mouth" as KM Gresham says :rolleyes:

Scott Rosen
12-02-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by McB:
This brings us back too the typical Lib. Vs Con. argument. The lib. sees abuse and blames those who do not abuse. The Con. Says punish the abusers not those who do not.I don't see it in that light at all. This has absolutely nothing to do with political philosophy.

Sure, some kids who were spanked grow up just fine. And some kids who weren't spanked become miserable adults.

No one can dispute that it is far better to achieve a goal without violence and harm, if possible, then to achieve that same goal with violence.

I have trouble believing that some kids can only be controlled with violence. If you are hitting your kids, it may not do them any permanent harm, and it may be better than no discipline at all, but I don't see how you can convince yourself that you've found the best way. If you're hitting your kids, it's because you are unable or unwilling to make the effort to find a better way.

[ 12-02-2004, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

htom
12-02-2004, 04:50 PM
"... If you're hitting your kids, it's because you are unable or unwilling to make the effort to find a better way."

It may be that some of the spankers have made great efforts and not found a better way. Not all searching is successful (if it was, it would be called "finding".)

Harry Miller
12-02-2004, 04:58 PM
I gotta agree with High C on this one. :D

Scott Rosen
12-02-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by htom:
[QBIt may be that some of the spankers have made great efforts and not found a better way.[/QB]No doubt that's true. What bothers me is that there are people who think that spanking is the best form of discipline.

We're only human, and lord knows some kids are just out and out difficult. So we can cut ourselves enough slack to recognize that we may not have the ability to find the non-violent way all of the time.

But that doesn't mean we should fool ourselves into thinking that the violent way is as good or better than the non-violent way.

uncas
12-02-2004, 06:36 PM
Scott! As I have written previously, I was spanked twice...only twice....Cutting the apple switch was the tough part. I remember those incidents but I also remember why I received the spankings...The pain..such as it was, has long gone... the reason for them has remained permanantly.

brad9798
12-02-2004, 07:47 PM
Why are you so defensive, PMJ??? I wasn't speaking of you ...

George Jung
12-02-2004, 11:14 PM
My father definitely favored corporal punishment, at times excessive; it was the way he was raised, and I still recall how he would tell stories of how he was beaten, as a child. He recognized it was wrong, but as an adult found he slipped into some of the same behaviors as his dad. I recognized that as well, and before we had kids, discussed what we thought was appropriate disciplining, taking note of what methods others employed, and how their children seemed to turn out. With our first, we employed spanking, "to get her attention", followed by talking. I thought it was right, but by the time daughter number two arrived, I had my doubts; not because my kids weren't well behaved, but because of many of the same issues mentioned in this thread. I especially relate to Garrets' posts. I came to realize that the spanking just wasn't necessary; I view it as beating, and I haven't used it, except very rarely, with my other kids.
That said, there sure is a variance in kids, and how they respond to discipline, and which method works best. With my twins, the 'light weight' was impervious to a spanking, while my 'robust' child would cry at the very implication of a spanking. I remember giving each a light (and I do mean light) swat for some infraction, and having the one ask the other, crying sibling "why you crying? that didn't hurt". We re-thought things, and while we still held out the possibility of a spanking, we preceded it with some quality time in their room, to "think" about what they did, then followed with a little quality time and discussion. :D They hated that! When they got older, I found that requiring a written report worked even better; after a few of those, almost no unacceptable behavior! :D My kids have (so far) been great; other folks ask me for pointers, based on my great kids! (Yeah, I'm proud of 'em)
Overcoming my inclinations, based on my own childhood experiences, is tough. Amazing how ingrained that can become, in spite of our best intentions.
Just an aside: When I was a kid, maybe 10 or so, I managed to make my mother mad. She was usually quite benign, but we got our due when dad got home. I must've been teasing her about something, and she hit me over the head with her hairbrush.... which broke in half, causing me not a whit of pain.... whereupon I laughed (big mistake) and mom said "wait til your dad gets home" . Yep, got spanked for breaking the hairbrush. :D