how much should the goverment take?

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  • seafox
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2001
    • 1700

    how much should the goverment take?

    what is fair?
    how did we get to the idea that one person pays nothing to suport the goverment and another pays something aproching half of their money, and thats fair?

    christian religions typically ask a tithe 10% of income. should goverment take more than GOD?

    the adverage cost of goverment is over 50% of american individuals income. Last I heard cost of goverment day is july third. tax freedom day I belive is in may, that is the day the actual money taken would be paid off if the goverment took everything first and then let you keep what you make there after. the cost of goverment includes all the book keeping,cost of regulations and unfunded mandates.
    the extra 10 percent homes cost because of goverment regulation and that is just an example of all the cost regulations force people to suffer.
  • formerlyknownasprince
    Banned
    • May 2002
    • 1726

    #2
    Mate - it depends on what they take it for.

    If they take it so as to employ people - they oughta get zilch.

    If they take it to create infrastructure - great - provided they don't do the building.

    If they take it to provide essential services - like fighting wars - oops, I mean defence - then you get into a debate about how many services to provide

    Mostly - they take it to make sure they get looked after - oops, I mean so that they can be of "public service"

    Comment

    • Peter Malcolm
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2002
      • 18515

      #3
      I think our tax free day is somewhere in June...

      That's okay with me. I have no problem giving my money to fund social programs, as long as it's spent properly.
      Wooden boats are like shingles, recurring, and often painful.

      Comment

      • Bruce Hooke
        Senior Member
        • Mar 2000
        • 14297

        #4
        Try visiting a country where the government has very little money available to do much of anything. I think you'll realize that you are getting a pretty damn good return on your tax money here in the US.

        If the church had to do all the things that we expect of government, from supporing a military to building roads, I'd bet that they would need a whole lot more than 10% to get much done...

        Comment

        • Cuyahoga Chuck
          # 7727
          • Dec 2003
          • 12984

          #5
          If you think the tax bite at present is bad, just wait. Somewhere down the line we will have to pony up for massive treasury hemorage going on know.
          We are supporting an army in combat. This takes big money. We have another army of "contractors" (they're really mercinaries) and and you don't want to know how much those bad boys cost. We are simultaneously fighting a war and trying to repair war damage. You should be in this business. Unfortunately, all these juicy contracts have been let. And because we want to get the hell out of there we are trying to recreate the army we so successfully destroyed. More big dough.
          Then there is all the military hardware we have used up in this war. The Pentagon is already crafting a request for all new stuff for the Regular Army and for the Guard and Reserve (their stuff got used up too).
          And, as the money dissappears the President is hell bent on tax cut after tax cut.
          The bill will come due.
          About the only way I can see to get out of this is for the government to sell off all our natural resources including all the salt in the Great Salt Lake.
          Charlie

          Comment

          • George Roberts
            Banned
            • Nov 1999
            • 6617

            #6
            seafox ---

            First, you make the usual false claim: that we should pay taxes based on income. Second, you fail to make that claim clear.

            I am all for making taxes equal. We will put a flat tax on all "property."

            A man with $1 million in "property" will pay $20,000 a year in taxes. A man with $30 billion in "property" will pay $600,000,000.

            Since income is a form of transfering property, income get taxed in this system.

            Is taxing property a valid way to pay for government? Perhaps. After all the government protects our property as much as our persons. The infrastructure produced changes the value of property, increasing or decreasing it.


            Seems fair to me.

            The reason that the income tax will not be changed is that most have a very good tax situation.

            Comment

            • joejapan
              ----------------
              • Dec 2004
              • 651

              #7
              .

              You've gotta' pay to live in paradise.

              [ 11-13-2005, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: joejapan ]

              Comment

              • crawdaddyjim50
                NeoLiberal (look it up)
                • Sep 2005
                • 1186

                #8
                The Fair Tax plan put forth by John Linder is a real solution to the problem of equal taxation and putting the power back into the hands of the people and getting the fox out of the hen house. Check it out..
                Liberty and Equal Justice not "Social Justice" FOR ALL.

                “Property is the fruit of labor…property is desirable…is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built.” Abraham Lincoln

                Comment

                • rhtyler
                  Defenestrator in Chief
                  • Nov 2002
                  • 1134

                  #9
                  Originally posted by crawdaddyjim50:
                  The Fair Tax plan put forth by John Linder is a real solution to the problem of equal taxation and putting the power back into the hands of the people and getting the fox out of the hen house. Check it out..
                  OK, I'm a lying scum. I promised nothing but boats for three days, and I only made through one. I hope you will forgive my intrusion in a policy-wonk thread, even though I am still supposed to be in self-imposed exile from the bilge.

                  The biggest problem with Linder's plan is tax evasion. At a 30-50% sales tax rate on everything you buy (including medical care, attorney fees, consulting services, food, and utilities) the temptation to cheat on taxes goes up. The underground economy might well be even larger than it is now. A national sales tax rate of less than 10% combined with other consumption taxes and the "prebate" Linder recommends to avoid the regressive hit on those with lower incomes would probably be better -- and still eliminate the personal income tax return.

                  As an article in Money Magazine says, just eliminating the personal income tax industry would save the economy $110 billion a year. Just think of all those accountants and lawyers freed up to take over the jobs of recently deported illegal aliens?

                  Comment

                  • phillipdallen
                    new member
                    • May 2002
                    • 63618

                    #10
                    Presently, I'm not in the mood to take on this topic but that doesn't mean I don't have something to day about it. The topic is not so much about taxes as it is about the nature of our government. From my perspective, the question is do we exist to service government or does government exist to service us. My belief is that government is a service to the population and answers to the population (We the People). In that regard, we purchase government as needed. My cousin believes the opposite, that is, the government owns the people and as such we are chattel…he likes big central government and I do not. He thinks this way because he thinks he is a small fish and may get by with more and have more freedom because he is too insignificant to bother with…he may simply pay what is demanded and walk away from the responsibility of everyday governance. I believe that large central government is an indulgence and we pay for it by shaking down our neighbors. If I don’t want to drive on dirt roads or over pot holes, I may get the money to “improve” those roads by taking it from my neighbor. If my neighbor doesn’t want to pay for the pavement, then I through government, kill my neighbor. That is how taxes are pressed upon the population…pay or die. Yes there are many steps between non-payment and being bayoneted but that logical extreme exists none the less. The larger the government, the more coercive and the more likely the bayonet.
                    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
                    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

                    Comment

                    • George Roberts
                      Banned
                      • Nov 1999
                      • 6617

                      #11
                      Phillip Allen ---

                      I guess I share much of your view of government.

                      But then there are those who want to share in benefits of government projects but not pay for them. Roads are a great example. Without the interstate highway system (a project built to benefit the military) life even for those who think they don't benefit would be so much different I don't know where to start.

                      In any case the people in the US are supposed to be the government and we are the blame for the government we have.

                      Comment

                      • ljb5
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2004
                        • 18136

                        #12
                        Originally posted by seafox:
                        christian religions typically ask a tithe 10% of income. should goverment take more than GOD?
                        I always wonder whiy God needs even that much.

                        I mean, he is God, isn't he?

                        Maybe being omnipotent doesn't pay the bills.
                        ”If you look at it from a contextual standpoint, I think it's accurate. If you contextualize in concrete numbers fashion, it's not accurate."

                        Comment

                        • Paul Pless
                          pinko commie tree hugger
                          • Oct 2003
                          • 124802

                          #13
                          ljb5,

                          Tithing is not fundamentally a purpose for God, but rather is much more about bringing believers closer to Christ by making them rely on God more, and on money( and thus themselves) less. In its ultimate expression, Jesus states in the Bible, to become like small children, or in other words, become completely dependent upon God.

                          Most monotheistic religions and even many philosophies, think lessor Buddhism, express similar views for the promotion of happiness.

                          Paul
                          Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

                          Comment

                          • ljb5
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 18136

                            #14
                            So maybe the comparison to government taxation isn't particularly apt and anyone who makes such a comparison ought to feel darn silly?
                            ”If you look at it from a contextual standpoint, I think it's accurate. If you contextualize in concrete numbers fashion, it's not accurate."

                            Comment

                            • Paul Pless
                              pinko commie tree hugger
                              • Oct 2003
                              • 124802

                              #15
                              back on topic, "How much should the government take?"

                              The issue I have, and most people in my position have regarding taxation is the following: Sure I make what is generally regarded by most people as alot of money, however, I worked very very hard for what I have accomplished. What right does the government have to take that money that I have earned, through taxation, and treat it as a simple transfer of wealth and give it to those that have not shown an inclination to work - or at least an incilnation to work as hard as I have.

                              I will not argue that a large part of the reason for my success is that I live in a society that has allowed me to succeed financially. I have no problem with paying for an infrastructure that promotes industry and trade. I have no problem with taxes that fund schools and colleges, because surely I have benefited from an educated populace. But for the government to arbitrarily take what I have worked for and give it to another individual rather directly and awefully ineffieciently based solely on the merit that I have more money than that person seems rather greedy and presumptious and even evil by some extension.

                              Paul

                              [ 11-14-2005, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]
                              Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

                              Comment

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