Dutch Rub
10-19-2003, 09:20 PM
:D :D :D
Author Topic: The WoodenBoat Forum is turning to crap!
Donn
.
Member # 1938
posted 10-17-2003 07:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I put this thread in People & Places because it appears that people are ruining a place that used to be much more friendly.
When you go to the index page of each forum section, you see the 50 most recent threads in that section.
Building/Repair goes back to October 13, 14 pages of threads in 100 days.
Designs/Plans goes back to October 3, 6 pages of threads in 100 days.
People & Places goes back to September 14, 3 pages of threads in 100 days.
Resources/Product Search goes back to September 23,5 pages of threads in 100 days.
Misc. Boat Related goes back to October 10, 10 pages of threads in 100 days.
Misc. Non-Boat Related goes back to yesterday, 31 pages of threads in 100 days.
People who used to ask wooden boat and general boat questions, don't ask anymore. People who used to answer those questions don't post answers anymore. New members ask questions that go unanswered, or are answered with smart-ass replies.
Politics, Religion, Social Issues, argument and insult, have taken over the WBF. Something needs to be done about it. I realize that wooden boat builders, restorers, users and just plain fans, have other interests as well, but this is really starting to get ridiculous.
Please stop driving away old members, and scaring away new members. Please stop making this place such a negative and contentious place.
Title edited by request.
[ 10-17-2003, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]
--------------------
Donn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Great South Bay, Long Island, NY | IP: Logged
Concordia..41
.
Member # 4675
posted 10-17-2003 07:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I beg to differ. Not to argue numbers, but the folks that have been around. Just in the last few days I've seen posts from Capt. Jake, Lumberdude, and of course, Kevin just gave us an update in misc. non. Saw something from Sailor Dave a bit back, Roger S., Blazy, and thechemist magically appeared when needed. Saw something from your friend Hozbalt [sp?] in the last week or two.
Frankly there's so many new names in B&R, I've well lost track of who's building/working on what.
Maybe I've missed it, or deliberately overlooked, but other than a couple wisearsed comments from popye and dutch, the garbage seems to settle in the bottom of the bilge (as designed).
I would appreciate it though, if you'd take the profanity out of the title of this post. We're all entitled to our opinions, and if that's what you think, fine, but the title in and of itself is an insult to our host.
Regards -
Margo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: St. Augustine, Florida | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-17-2003 07:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm hurt my name didn't get a mention Margo.
I think this place is more civil than it's been through much of my experience here, and that boat questions get asked and answered with good regularity. I travel the circuit, and when I feel I can help I do so. And the politics are just conversation at the club, after the day on the water.
Relax Donn. There's nothing you can do to change it, though your comments will be noted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
shamus
.
Member # 3547
posted 10-17-2003 07:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe there is something in what you say Donn, and I hereby pledge not to post to political threads any more, as these seem to encourage the nasty streak in all sides, with a few outstanding exceptions. That said, there is a bit of fatigue in the boat sections, as almost every possible question has been asked and answered several times in the last few years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hobart Tasmania Australia | IP: Logged
Bill Perkins
.
Member # 4679
posted 10-17-2003 08:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donn I felt you dropped the ball by not following through on the renovation of the Mellonseed you once mentioned , and bought I thought .The forum started slideing down hill from that point I think .
--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Atlanta | IP: Logged
huisjen
.
Member # 3406
posted 10-17-2003 08:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take it to the bilge, Donn.
Dan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Brooksville, Maine | IP: Logged
Chris Coose
.
Member # 3893
posted 10-17-2003 09:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly a bilge topic. Hate to foul the cleaner waters, unless that's what you want?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Portland, Maine | IP: Logged
Ed Harrow
.
Member # 1235
posted 10-17-2003 09:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good on you, Donn. Thank you. Maybe there is hope yet.
--------------------
"There is some soul of goodness in things evil,
Would men observingly distill it out."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Woodville, MA USA | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-17-2003 09:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, let's abandon it. Let's face it, all of the information bestowed is contained in a half shelf of good texts. Let's just tell the controllers that we've given up, want our money back(whoops, it's free), and we're going home.
Com'on, this place is what we make it. The politic/religion etc. is just a part. People wanting to know, to argue, to discuss, to learn, is what makes this place what it is, wonderful mostly. All the harking back to the good old days won't change that. Why would you want to?
[ 10-17-2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
ahc
.
Member # 7239
posted 10-17-2003 09:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack,
I don't know what you're smokin', but I'm with Donn. People aren't having debates, this place has become occupied territory.
Oh, and by the way, it's me, True Love, only I can't post under that handle with this new computer and associated diff email.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: usa | IP: Logged
Peter Malcolm Jardine
.
Member # 5652
posted 10-17-2003 09:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to like to play pooh sticks when it rained, except I always ended up cutting up pieces of wood in my dad's shop to make pooh ships instead. Life might have been simpler then, but I hope not.
You need a project Donn, but your comments are noted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Belleville Ontario | IP: Logged
Bruce Taylor
.
Member # 2142
posted 10-17-2003 09:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right on, Donn.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Wakefield, Quebec, Canada | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-17-2003 09:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True,
We haven't had a real blow-up since Donn threatened to go kill...fill in the blank. Maybe you missed that.
I find this conversation weird. If you don't like the drift of conversation here make it different. There is no other way to change things.
[ 10-17-2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
ahc
.
Member # 7239
posted 10-17-2003 09:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I missed that, Jack, because I got fed up with animosity being displayed prior to that.
I came back hoping that things had straightened out only to find a couple of people banned and lots more bile in the bilge.
I don't think this conversation is weird at all. I do contribute in a positive way. Go back and read my posts.
I now believe that this place should be focused on wooden boats and that politics and religion should be avoided since people just can't seem to play nice.
I miss some of the people who used to post here. I've learned a lot and as soon as I complete a transaction on a boat, I plan to be asking lots of questions in B&R. That's on track to happen after the first of the year.
There are many decent people here who for some reason tend to lose it when it comes to politics. The air is pretty acrid a lot of the time. The air of superiority wears mighty thin, too -- "you're wrong, Donn, but your comments are noted." - what's with that?
I think Donn's comments are right on and I thank him for bringing this up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: usa | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-17-2003 10:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say Donn was wrong. What I said was:
"Relax Donn. There's nothing you can do to change it, though your comments will be noted."
I've studiously tried to stay out of the political BS, and have failed. It, in this time we live, is fascinating, enticing.
What would you, anyone, suggest to break this thrall?
By the by, I think Donn a stand up guy, who has a lot of emotion. Pointing out his failings here in no way points otherwise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
whb
.
Member # 3998
posted 10-17-2003 10:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donn et. al.
I think you are correct. I am glad that the bilge exists because most of the stuff I don't want to read stays there. Too bad that we can't have a pleasant none boat section...
I wish I was more knowledgeable abouts boats. Hence, my coming to this place so often and I do appreciate the kind and generous actions of those who share knowledge.
Howard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada | IP: Logged
bukuboy
.
Member # 4493
posted 10-17-2003 10:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Place started to get foul because we thought America would be a better place with the scripted Dubya in the House. Now we realize he ain't no better than Uncle Bill,health care rates are sky high, Iraq situation is an absolute mess, we get taxed up the arse, lawyers are ruining America as we used to know it, fixed cost for today's families are at an all time high,corporate greed and fraud are rampant, labor rates are through the roof and few countries even like us. Yeah, I'd be a little antsy and tense too! America needs some xanax at this time and kick back with a big fat doobie! The Heretic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Bob Perkins
.
Member # 3892
posted 10-17-2003 10:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe if Misc-Non Boat related was renamed "The Bilge" More crap would flow there.
For the most part - we're a pretty well self policed bunch IMHO. Or maybe my personal radar manages to skip the crap.
--------------------
-------------
Regards,
Bob Perkins
My out of date site is at:
http://robert.perkins.home.comcast.net/
My Current project is at:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291051329
-------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Boston Area | IP: Logged
Peter Malcolm Jardine
.
Member # 5652
posted 10-17-2003 10:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the bottom line is that we all have good and bad days.... on bad days we might lose our temper, and out here there seems to be no consequences. I have been trying lately not to lose my temper here, or in real life. Jack's remarks are pretty much right on, things cycle here, and a lot of people come here for different kinds of things
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Belleville Ontario | IP: Logged
ahc
.
Member # 7239
posted 10-17-2003 10:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember when John R. Smith posted that he felt politics should be left out of the Forum - that was prior to the non-boat misc segment - and I remember thinking at the time that, nah, we can debate in a civil manner.
I was wrong and John R. Smith was right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: usa | IP: Logged
Bill Perkins
.
Member # 4679
posted 10-17-2003 10:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's ancient human wisdom that politics and religion have to be left out of civil discourse among people kicking back and trying to enjoy each others company .The internet doesn't change the rules of human intercourse .It's naive to think it would .The Net's a toy compared to the hard wired limitations of human nature I think .
--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Atlanta | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-17-2003 10:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yawn,
Anyone without the heuvos to get past a little confusion shouldn't be building, re-building a boat to begin with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
doorstop
.
Member # 3351
posted 10-18-2003 01:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems to me that most of our regular "Bilge Mouths" don't come up here into the fresh air very often anyway, I suspect that some don't even bother lurking above the Plimsol line... and that is fine with me! I have learnt a great deal up here above the line and I am grateful for that privilege, however, I can honestly say I have learnt nothing worth knowing in the bilge and travel down to that den of navel gazing ne'er do wells less and less as I get angry that so few can waffle so much trash about so little.
edited in an attempt to improve the spelling
[ 10-18-2003, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: doorstop ]
--------------------
Chris
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Penola,South Australia | IP: Logged
Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
.
Member # 4659
posted 10-18-2003 01:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a JOKE
Never thought I would see the day Donn got soft ???? Where did ya put your nads boy ? Here is the deal were all builders and sailors this aint the ladies church social. I'm nice when I need to be and I'm crass when ya piss me off. I try to be funny and heartwarming with my posts like all of us do. But Donn you cant nod and smile at Stan's political cut and paste (THE BOY CONTRIBUTES NOTHING IN THE WAY OF BOATS AND YOU KNOW IT) and then jump on Meerkat for breathing the wrong way and then claim to be ABOVE it all. Donn if your gonna Oyster on us and start talking about the good old days please take it down to the Bilge where it belongs. I don't post this kind of Stuff up here and you should know better. I'm with Jack and Margo on this and I think were a fine forum, I love each any every one of you. Now quit your belly aching and delete this thread allready
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cold Spring on Hudson | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 03:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short memories boys?
Let's go back to the first use of the word Aunty.
Hypocrite.
Warren.
ps, In the past even a rude word's Author, was berated. When I was told to FOAD, not a single word, from any of you. The Forum Members approved, with their silence. The Forum's real standard was set then. Harden up Ladies, ... is that the word, Donn? I presume Aunty meant cowardly Aussies, Donn? You are a patronizing self-righteous wanker and the wrong person to have initiated a concerned topic, ... go back to your boat.
[ 10-18-2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Nora Lee
.
Member # 3237
posted 10-18-2003 03:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys, I'm back, have been lurking for a while and have been saddened by some of the tirades. This forum deserves the dignity of the magazine that sponsors us. Thank You Woodenboat for such a special place!
The political stuff only divides, what has brought us all together, a love for the traditions of the sea and the vessels that ply them.
Let the saltier stuff remain in the Bilge, but put some cleaner in once in a while, so that the odor doesn't spoil the forum above the waterline.
Glad to be back!
Smooth Sailing at Last!
Nora Lee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Elizabeth City, NC,USA | IP: Logged
Meerkat
.
Member # 4667
posted 10-18-2003 03:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm... In the good old bad old days, a sailor's tavern was a rough and tumble place. Based on the reminisces of those who had the fortune to partake of the last few, some people miss them and bemoan many of them having been turned into tourist traps or yuppie bars with lots of atmosphere and little substance. Now someone, a previous particpant in some of the rough and tumble, suddenly wants it to be all sweetness and light and politically correct (actually politically neutered!). I don't know about you all, but I live in a political world - living together at every level from family to office to city to country is what politics is about.
This place has never been as bad as a real sailor's bar: no actual fisticuffs, no knifings and only the ocassional threat of murder and mayhem. From what I can tell, members are considerate enough to keep the non-boat stuff in the non-boat area and are polite and supportive of others in the other areas of the forum with very little bleed over. It seems to be working just fine for all concerned as far as I can see.
As someone has already indirectly pointed out, I think the bilge reflects the stress and strain we're all living with in the real world with all the issues of the economy, politics and leadership. Having a place to vent about that stuff is a good thing - it's better than going postal.
Would you go to a gathering place where the most controversial topic was the weather? I would not! I come here to, and do, talk about boats. I also come here to exchange views on topics of the day with those who are interested in actually exchanging views and not flogging their favorite dog du jour or hurling invective in response to reasonable comments or questions with no real interest in having a dialog. There are some here who take the forum far too seriously and think every sarcastic or humerous remark is a personal attack on themselves and/or their favorite idea.
[ 10-18-2003, 03:43 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
--------------------
If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!
Meerkat
Seattle, WA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Seattle, WA | IP: Logged
Aramas
.
Member # 4492
posted 10-18-2003 03:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suspect that Donn's problem is that this forum, like boats, has a balance of port and starboard. A real wholesome Donn boat would have a right side and a further right side
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NQ, AU | IP: Logged
Mike Field
.
Member # 2239
posted 10-18-2003 06:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Western Port, Victoria, Australia | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 08:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warren,
Chill a little. Recipient of one of Donn's special attentions in the past were we? I missed that too. Like I said, he has a lot of emotion, and you know you are welcomed here.
All,
This is a good place. Sure it gets out of hand occasionally, what good place doesn't? Rather than bitch and moan, continue to make it a good place by putting your finer ideas and time and energy into it.
It's different today than it was a year ago, and will be different a year from now than today. You, all of you, will decide what it looks like. Freedom is a blessing and a bitch.
P.S. And Donn, don't you dare, as per Joe's suggestion, delete this thread. I'll have to come and shoot it out with ya if ya do.
[ 10-18-2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
MJC
.
Member # 6021
posted 10-18-2003 08:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donn - I think you're right, and I think you're wrong. Yes, the bilge should be pumped and some of the holes in the sanitary system should be plugged to prevent crap from mixing with the sweet sea water. But there are some amazing threads down there. Two that come immediately to mind are the Humor Me and the Daughters threads. For me, sifting through the dung to find these jewels is worth the effort, although I would enjoy my experience here more if I didn't have to sift through so much dung.
Shunning is a traditional method for punishing wayward members of a tight-knit community. It's also a modern method for ending flame wars. Ignore them and they go away. I don't understand the need of disturbed individuals to take over a forum, nor do I understand why anyone would encourage such individuals by posting to their thread.
As far as the rest of the forum, I think your statistics partially disprove your point. There's still a lot of action above the waterline. Fascinating threads. Aramas' thread on Aesthetics has had me thinking and rereading and thinking since it was originally posted. I feel like I'm on the threshold of a major breakthrough in my thinking about boat design. A thread that comes along every month or so and stimulates my thinking as much as this one has is worth all the aggravation of the useless threads.
--------------------
"There is nothing, abso-" "Quit preachin' to the choir."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Southeast Michigan | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 08:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warren,
I, and most here, value all of your input. You seem a thoughtful, interesting person, if a bit misguided politically.
But that's the point, we are different and can speak our minds here, and as long as we maintain respect and some decorum we can say most anything.
I've always wanted to sail a Star. I've a working model sailboat, built by my father out of orange crate lumber, that is a big Star with cabin added. All kinda rough and 'folk artish', but it shows where his mind was turning in 1930 at thirteen years old, towards a Star. He grew up in central Ohio, and Stars were a big class in the the northern cities of Sandusky and Cleveland. Still an exciting boat, by all accounts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
Memphis Mike
.
Member # 6715
posted 10-18-2003 09:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donn, you truly are a mean spirited person. By posting this, you may very well send Jack to the nervous hospital.
--------------------
"Don't think so much and you'll never have to change your mind."
Rev. Billy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Memphis,Tn. | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 09:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as being politically misguided, Jack. Please pull any of my previous 2000+ posts, ... and now that hindsight is upon us, I'll discuss anything that I've writen, Please do it. I am not bluffed by Americam Capitalism and her greed and to use your word, largesse(spelling?, I hadn't even heard the word until you wrote it).
Jack I will discuss it/them in fine detail. I was waiting for the opportunity to say, I told you so. I view the Forum as Chronicling our times.
Warren.
ps, go and find the politically misguided holes, Sir. Then we will compare notes. All notes referred too, must be on the Forum already, Jack, ... one digs one's own grave..
[ 10-18-2003, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Fishboat
.
Member # 6986
posted 10-18-2003 09:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't really tell if the there's a downhill slide as I've only read the board for about a year. I do find the obligatory(?) and seemingly endless "Who died today...RIP" posts a good reason to skip the entire People & Places board...oh, sorry Donn.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Great Lakes | IP: Logged
Mike Field
.
Member # 2239
posted 10-18-2003 09:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
Jack, as you would know, I've been "a recipient of one of Donn's special attentions in the past," as indeed he has been of mine.
If Donn would like to see the Forum with less "crap" on it, great. He would certainly not be alone in that. However, as Dan says in another thread, having dished out so much of that same crap himself in the past I don't think Donn's really now in a position to start complaining about how much of it there is.
Warren's used some pretty stiff language maybe, but his sentiment's perfectly correct. (In fact, looking back at his post, I"m not sure his language isn't really pretty temperate after all, anyway.)
What's more, I echo the comment Dan makes above -- the rightful place for this thread is in the bilge, not here.
It would be nice to think that Donn's behaviour has indeed changed a bit, but the proof of the pudding's in the eating after all, not in a statement of possible intention. And frankly, given the amount of that same crap of which he now complains that he himself has dished out in the past, it's going to need a pretty big behavioural swing to make me sit up and take any notice.
I'm still convinceable, though.
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Western Port, Victoria, Australia | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 09:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jumpy! Geez, if a man can't take a little well meant jibe I worry about him. I even put the smiley at the end of it.
How 'bout them Stars Warren?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 09:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack, I would own and race a Star, but I can't deep launch from our Sea Scout's beach. I would have to leave my friends, to do it. Racing good boats will nearly make up for it, ... maybe. If I finish fixing the boat, the Star, I'll get her, her owner is retiring. I'm also a bit light, for Star Class, at only 80kg. My normal (most are abnormal) crewman, Adam, isn't light, he is a montser, 120kg. Guys that big aren't easy to find, ... most that size are scared of water.
Warren.
ps, Do you think Daytona Speedway looks like an Olympic course? I prefer the l/ward w/ward, more of a sprint.
[ 10-18-2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 10:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ps, Do you think Daytona Speedway looks like an Olympic course?, ... I prefer the w/ward l/ward, more of a sprint.
What's that mean? You'll forgive me, you know more about Daytona than I do. I know it's a place where people race cars but that's it. Strange you should know it at all.
Stars. Interesting, any keelboat that still relies on heft to sail it well. My father's model has a keel of lead. It's a sheet of lead, screwed to the bottom with a couple wings. It's all pounded, like he made it with a hammer out of a chunk, over many hours. Ah, the fascinations of youth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 10:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack, I just changed the course then to l/ward, w/ward, the wind shifted and the start would have bunched. Delayed the start by 10. Shift the mark to 55o off, 2 mins at 20kts then drop. Don't you guys personally set your courses over there?, ... ISAF rules only over here.
Daytona is the Olympic trapizoid. Like the long course on Lake Illawara, close to home.
The Forum should not have had a war, lets race.
Warren.
[ 10-18-2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 10:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warren,
I don't speak the idiom, but start a thread about your dinghy racing experiences. You probably have, but do it again. Use your gifts and explain them well.
Jack
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
paladin
.
Member # 2645
posted 10-18-2003 10:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how about taking this back to the bilge.....
--------------------
..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chesapeake Beach, Md 20732 U.S.A. | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 10:37 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck, I would have imagined you would have appreciated the metaphore. Wrong again hey?
Warren.
[ 10-18-2003, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Ex-Oceangoddess
.
Member # 6754
posted 10-18-2003 10:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never read the bilge, or go there, and if this is the sort of thing that goes on, my instincts are right.
I learn a lot on this forum - about wooden boats and boatbuilding - that's why I come here. I don't need to debate anything else here, and since there are a kazillion sites on the internet where people can vent their own particular peculiar political preferences I can't really see why they gum up this bilge.
Whatever....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Helena MT | IP: Logged
Bruce Taylor
.
Member # 2142
posted 10-18-2003 10:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some time ago, the forum swallowed a fly. Then it swallowed a spider to get rid of the fly, and you know the rest of the story.
Jack, when I first came to the forum there were no topics like "partial birth murder" (all caps, and four EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!) and there was certainly nothing like the sort of garbage that fills that thread. If there had been, I wouldn't have stuck around. If you don't notice the deterioration it must be because you've kept pace with it, lowering your expectations as the quality of the talk goes down.
Dan, Warren and others...Donn's trying to straighten up, and that's a good thing. Taunting him, and questioning his sincerity, is not a good thing, regardless of any injury he might have done you in the past. Give him the benefit of the doubt, and hold him to the high standard he's setting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Wakefield, Quebec, Canada | IP: Logged
Memphis Mike
.
Member # 6715
posted 10-18-2003 10:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember when the political threads first started showing up in here. I knew they would cause hard feelings amoung the members and stated such.
I'd like to see political topics made off limits. Deleted by the administrator and if it becomes too much of a problem then kill Misc. Non Boat.
There are other forums on the net for those that feel they must discuss politics.
BTW, I'm as guilty as the rest but this isn't a matter of guilt. I know exactly what Donn is saying. It's just plain damn boring to have to wade through all of the garbage to get to something interesting.
--------------------
"Don't think so much and you'll never have to change your mind."
Rev. Billy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Memphis,Tn. | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 10:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce, Noble and yes, ... but only until the next time they lose it.
Warren.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 10:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Memphis, you were the first one to call me a coward, ... after I'd just come off a 13 hour shift on a fire line, talk is cheap and very forgetable in the US. Let's get this right Sunshine. The degeneration started where, MM?
In fact Memphis I hadn't been to bed for 4 days (but I did crash), I'd been fighting fires, ... then this prick said, "any one who was against the war was a coward." Wacky doo Memphis.
You guys who were rude, owe appologies to those you **** on, who were correct, and have been proven to be correct, the fact that the US is running cap in hand to the International Community backs this. Piss weak US.
I should have said, have you been told?
Warren.
[ 10-18-2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 10:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't notice the deterioration it must be because you've kept pace with it, lowering your expectations as the quality of the talk goes down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best W.C. Fields demeanor: Probably true, probably true.
What do you suggest my friend? I've suggested raising the level rather than throwing out the baby.
"Be careful that in casting out your demons you don't also lose your angels." Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
JimD
.
Member # 4669
posted 10-18-2003 11:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ex-Oceangoddess:
I never read the bilge, or go there, and if this is the sort of thing that goes on, my instincts are right...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(edited by JimD for brevity)
It seems if some members won't go to the bilge then (sadly) the bilge will go to them, thanks to donn.
Donn, you're part of the problem posing as the solution. You should know better than to pull a stunt like this. Please move or lose this thread.
--------------------
You should not try to lug along what you are trying to leave behind - L Francis Herreshoff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Turner Valley, Alberta, Canada | IP: Logged
:D :D
Author Topic: The WoodenBoat Forum is turning to crap!
Donn
.
Member # 1938
posted 10-17-2003 07:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I put this thread in People & Places because it appears that people are ruining a place that used to be much more friendly.
When you go to the index page of each forum section, you see the 50 most recent threads in that section.
Building/Repair goes back to October 13, 14 pages of threads in 100 days.
Designs/Plans goes back to October 3, 6 pages of threads in 100 days.
People & Places goes back to September 14, 3 pages of threads in 100 days.
Resources/Product Search goes back to September 23,5 pages of threads in 100 days.
Misc. Boat Related goes back to October 10, 10 pages of threads in 100 days.
Misc. Non-Boat Related goes back to yesterday, 31 pages of threads in 100 days.
People who used to ask wooden boat and general boat questions, don't ask anymore. People who used to answer those questions don't post answers anymore. New members ask questions that go unanswered, or are answered with smart-ass replies.
Politics, Religion, Social Issues, argument and insult, have taken over the WBF. Something needs to be done about it. I realize that wooden boat builders, restorers, users and just plain fans, have other interests as well, but this is really starting to get ridiculous.
Please stop driving away old members, and scaring away new members. Please stop making this place such a negative and contentious place.
Title edited by request.
[ 10-17-2003, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]
--------------------
Donn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Great South Bay, Long Island, NY | IP: Logged
Concordia..41
.
Member # 4675
posted 10-17-2003 07:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I beg to differ. Not to argue numbers, but the folks that have been around. Just in the last few days I've seen posts from Capt. Jake, Lumberdude, and of course, Kevin just gave us an update in misc. non. Saw something from Sailor Dave a bit back, Roger S., Blazy, and thechemist magically appeared when needed. Saw something from your friend Hozbalt [sp?] in the last week or two.
Frankly there's so many new names in B&R, I've well lost track of who's building/working on what.
Maybe I've missed it, or deliberately overlooked, but other than a couple wisearsed comments from popye and dutch, the garbage seems to settle in the bottom of the bilge (as designed).
I would appreciate it though, if you'd take the profanity out of the title of this post. We're all entitled to our opinions, and if that's what you think, fine, but the title in and of itself is an insult to our host.
Regards -
Margo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: St. Augustine, Florida | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-17-2003 07:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm hurt my name didn't get a mention Margo.
I think this place is more civil than it's been through much of my experience here, and that boat questions get asked and answered with good regularity. I travel the circuit, and when I feel I can help I do so. And the politics are just conversation at the club, after the day on the water.
Relax Donn. There's nothing you can do to change it, though your comments will be noted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
shamus
.
Member # 3547
posted 10-17-2003 07:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe there is something in what you say Donn, and I hereby pledge not to post to political threads any more, as these seem to encourage the nasty streak in all sides, with a few outstanding exceptions. That said, there is a bit of fatigue in the boat sections, as almost every possible question has been asked and answered several times in the last few years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hobart Tasmania Australia | IP: Logged
Bill Perkins
.
Member # 4679
posted 10-17-2003 08:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donn I felt you dropped the ball by not following through on the renovation of the Mellonseed you once mentioned , and bought I thought .The forum started slideing down hill from that point I think .
--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Atlanta | IP: Logged
huisjen
.
Member # 3406
posted 10-17-2003 08:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take it to the bilge, Donn.
Dan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Brooksville, Maine | IP: Logged
Chris Coose
.
Member # 3893
posted 10-17-2003 09:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly a bilge topic. Hate to foul the cleaner waters, unless that's what you want?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Portland, Maine | IP: Logged
Ed Harrow
.
Member # 1235
posted 10-17-2003 09:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good on you, Donn. Thank you. Maybe there is hope yet.
--------------------
"There is some soul of goodness in things evil,
Would men observingly distill it out."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Woodville, MA USA | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-17-2003 09:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, let's abandon it. Let's face it, all of the information bestowed is contained in a half shelf of good texts. Let's just tell the controllers that we've given up, want our money back(whoops, it's free), and we're going home.
Com'on, this place is what we make it. The politic/religion etc. is just a part. People wanting to know, to argue, to discuss, to learn, is what makes this place what it is, wonderful mostly. All the harking back to the good old days won't change that. Why would you want to?
[ 10-17-2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
ahc
.
Member # 7239
posted 10-17-2003 09:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack,
I don't know what you're smokin', but I'm with Donn. People aren't having debates, this place has become occupied territory.
Oh, and by the way, it's me, True Love, only I can't post under that handle with this new computer and associated diff email.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: usa | IP: Logged
Peter Malcolm Jardine
.
Member # 5652
posted 10-17-2003 09:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to like to play pooh sticks when it rained, except I always ended up cutting up pieces of wood in my dad's shop to make pooh ships instead. Life might have been simpler then, but I hope not.
You need a project Donn, but your comments are noted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Belleville Ontario | IP: Logged
Bruce Taylor
.
Member # 2142
posted 10-17-2003 09:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right on, Donn.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Wakefield, Quebec, Canada | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-17-2003 09:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True,
We haven't had a real blow-up since Donn threatened to go kill...fill in the blank. Maybe you missed that.
I find this conversation weird. If you don't like the drift of conversation here make it different. There is no other way to change things.
[ 10-17-2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
ahc
.
Member # 7239
posted 10-17-2003 09:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I missed that, Jack, because I got fed up with animosity being displayed prior to that.
I came back hoping that things had straightened out only to find a couple of people banned and lots more bile in the bilge.
I don't think this conversation is weird at all. I do contribute in a positive way. Go back and read my posts.
I now believe that this place should be focused on wooden boats and that politics and religion should be avoided since people just can't seem to play nice.
I miss some of the people who used to post here. I've learned a lot and as soon as I complete a transaction on a boat, I plan to be asking lots of questions in B&R. That's on track to happen after the first of the year.
There are many decent people here who for some reason tend to lose it when it comes to politics. The air is pretty acrid a lot of the time. The air of superiority wears mighty thin, too -- "you're wrong, Donn, but your comments are noted." - what's with that?
I think Donn's comments are right on and I thank him for bringing this up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: usa | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-17-2003 10:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say Donn was wrong. What I said was:
"Relax Donn. There's nothing you can do to change it, though your comments will be noted."
I've studiously tried to stay out of the political BS, and have failed. It, in this time we live, is fascinating, enticing.
What would you, anyone, suggest to break this thrall?
By the by, I think Donn a stand up guy, who has a lot of emotion. Pointing out his failings here in no way points otherwise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
whb
.
Member # 3998
posted 10-17-2003 10:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donn et. al.
I think you are correct. I am glad that the bilge exists because most of the stuff I don't want to read stays there. Too bad that we can't have a pleasant none boat section...
I wish I was more knowledgeable abouts boats. Hence, my coming to this place so often and I do appreciate the kind and generous actions of those who share knowledge.
Howard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada | IP: Logged
bukuboy
.
Member # 4493
posted 10-17-2003 10:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Place started to get foul because we thought America would be a better place with the scripted Dubya in the House. Now we realize he ain't no better than Uncle Bill,health care rates are sky high, Iraq situation is an absolute mess, we get taxed up the arse, lawyers are ruining America as we used to know it, fixed cost for today's families are at an all time high,corporate greed and fraud are rampant, labor rates are through the roof and few countries even like us. Yeah, I'd be a little antsy and tense too! America needs some xanax at this time and kick back with a big fat doobie! The Heretic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Bob Perkins
.
Member # 3892
posted 10-17-2003 10:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe if Misc-Non Boat related was renamed "The Bilge" More crap would flow there.
For the most part - we're a pretty well self policed bunch IMHO. Or maybe my personal radar manages to skip the crap.
--------------------
-------------
Regards,
Bob Perkins
My out of date site is at:
http://robert.perkins.home.comcast.net/
My Current project is at:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291051329
-------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Boston Area | IP: Logged
Peter Malcolm Jardine
.
Member # 5652
posted 10-17-2003 10:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the bottom line is that we all have good and bad days.... on bad days we might lose our temper, and out here there seems to be no consequences. I have been trying lately not to lose my temper here, or in real life. Jack's remarks are pretty much right on, things cycle here, and a lot of people come here for different kinds of things
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Belleville Ontario | IP: Logged
ahc
.
Member # 7239
posted 10-17-2003 10:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember when John R. Smith posted that he felt politics should be left out of the Forum - that was prior to the non-boat misc segment - and I remember thinking at the time that, nah, we can debate in a civil manner.
I was wrong and John R. Smith was right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: usa | IP: Logged
Bill Perkins
.
Member # 4679
posted 10-17-2003 10:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's ancient human wisdom that politics and religion have to be left out of civil discourse among people kicking back and trying to enjoy each others company .The internet doesn't change the rules of human intercourse .It's naive to think it would .The Net's a toy compared to the hard wired limitations of human nature I think .
--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Atlanta | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-17-2003 10:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yawn,
Anyone without the heuvos to get past a little confusion shouldn't be building, re-building a boat to begin with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
doorstop
.
Member # 3351
posted 10-18-2003 01:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems to me that most of our regular "Bilge Mouths" don't come up here into the fresh air very often anyway, I suspect that some don't even bother lurking above the Plimsol line... and that is fine with me! I have learnt a great deal up here above the line and I am grateful for that privilege, however, I can honestly say I have learnt nothing worth knowing in the bilge and travel down to that den of navel gazing ne'er do wells less and less as I get angry that so few can waffle so much trash about so little.
edited in an attempt to improve the spelling
[ 10-18-2003, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: doorstop ]
--------------------
Chris
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Penola,South Australia | IP: Logged
Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
.
Member # 4659
posted 10-18-2003 01:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a JOKE
Never thought I would see the day Donn got soft ???? Where did ya put your nads boy ? Here is the deal were all builders and sailors this aint the ladies church social. I'm nice when I need to be and I'm crass when ya piss me off. I try to be funny and heartwarming with my posts like all of us do. But Donn you cant nod and smile at Stan's political cut and paste (THE BOY CONTRIBUTES NOTHING IN THE WAY OF BOATS AND YOU KNOW IT) and then jump on Meerkat for breathing the wrong way and then claim to be ABOVE it all. Donn if your gonna Oyster on us and start talking about the good old days please take it down to the Bilge where it belongs. I don't post this kind of Stuff up here and you should know better. I'm with Jack and Margo on this and I think were a fine forum, I love each any every one of you. Now quit your belly aching and delete this thread allready
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cold Spring on Hudson | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 03:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short memories boys?
Let's go back to the first use of the word Aunty.
Hypocrite.
Warren.
ps, In the past even a rude word's Author, was berated. When I was told to FOAD, not a single word, from any of you. The Forum Members approved, with their silence. The Forum's real standard was set then. Harden up Ladies, ... is that the word, Donn? I presume Aunty meant cowardly Aussies, Donn? You are a patronizing self-righteous wanker and the wrong person to have initiated a concerned topic, ... go back to your boat.
[ 10-18-2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Nora Lee
.
Member # 3237
posted 10-18-2003 03:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys, I'm back, have been lurking for a while and have been saddened by some of the tirades. This forum deserves the dignity of the magazine that sponsors us. Thank You Woodenboat for such a special place!
The political stuff only divides, what has brought us all together, a love for the traditions of the sea and the vessels that ply them.
Let the saltier stuff remain in the Bilge, but put some cleaner in once in a while, so that the odor doesn't spoil the forum above the waterline.
Glad to be back!
Smooth Sailing at Last!
Nora Lee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Elizabeth City, NC,USA | IP: Logged
Meerkat
.
Member # 4667
posted 10-18-2003 03:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm... In the good old bad old days, a sailor's tavern was a rough and tumble place. Based on the reminisces of those who had the fortune to partake of the last few, some people miss them and bemoan many of them having been turned into tourist traps or yuppie bars with lots of atmosphere and little substance. Now someone, a previous particpant in some of the rough and tumble, suddenly wants it to be all sweetness and light and politically correct (actually politically neutered!). I don't know about you all, but I live in a political world - living together at every level from family to office to city to country is what politics is about.
This place has never been as bad as a real sailor's bar: no actual fisticuffs, no knifings and only the ocassional threat of murder and mayhem. From what I can tell, members are considerate enough to keep the non-boat stuff in the non-boat area and are polite and supportive of others in the other areas of the forum with very little bleed over. It seems to be working just fine for all concerned as far as I can see.
As someone has already indirectly pointed out, I think the bilge reflects the stress and strain we're all living with in the real world with all the issues of the economy, politics and leadership. Having a place to vent about that stuff is a good thing - it's better than going postal.
Would you go to a gathering place where the most controversial topic was the weather? I would not! I come here to, and do, talk about boats. I also come here to exchange views on topics of the day with those who are interested in actually exchanging views and not flogging their favorite dog du jour or hurling invective in response to reasonable comments or questions with no real interest in having a dialog. There are some here who take the forum far too seriously and think every sarcastic or humerous remark is a personal attack on themselves and/or their favorite idea.
[ 10-18-2003, 03:43 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
--------------------
If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!
Meerkat
Seattle, WA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Seattle, WA | IP: Logged
Aramas
.
Member # 4492
posted 10-18-2003 03:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suspect that Donn's problem is that this forum, like boats, has a balance of port and starboard. A real wholesome Donn boat would have a right side and a further right side
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NQ, AU | IP: Logged
Mike Field
.
Member # 2239
posted 10-18-2003 06:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Western Port, Victoria, Australia | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 08:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warren,
Chill a little. Recipient of one of Donn's special attentions in the past were we? I missed that too. Like I said, he has a lot of emotion, and you know you are welcomed here.
All,
This is a good place. Sure it gets out of hand occasionally, what good place doesn't? Rather than bitch and moan, continue to make it a good place by putting your finer ideas and time and energy into it.
It's different today than it was a year ago, and will be different a year from now than today. You, all of you, will decide what it looks like. Freedom is a blessing and a bitch.
P.S. And Donn, don't you dare, as per Joe's suggestion, delete this thread. I'll have to come and shoot it out with ya if ya do.
[ 10-18-2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
MJC
.
Member # 6021
posted 10-18-2003 08:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donn - I think you're right, and I think you're wrong. Yes, the bilge should be pumped and some of the holes in the sanitary system should be plugged to prevent crap from mixing with the sweet sea water. But there are some amazing threads down there. Two that come immediately to mind are the Humor Me and the Daughters threads. For me, sifting through the dung to find these jewels is worth the effort, although I would enjoy my experience here more if I didn't have to sift through so much dung.
Shunning is a traditional method for punishing wayward members of a tight-knit community. It's also a modern method for ending flame wars. Ignore them and they go away. I don't understand the need of disturbed individuals to take over a forum, nor do I understand why anyone would encourage such individuals by posting to their thread.
As far as the rest of the forum, I think your statistics partially disprove your point. There's still a lot of action above the waterline. Fascinating threads. Aramas' thread on Aesthetics has had me thinking and rereading and thinking since it was originally posted. I feel like I'm on the threshold of a major breakthrough in my thinking about boat design. A thread that comes along every month or so and stimulates my thinking as much as this one has is worth all the aggravation of the useless threads.
--------------------
"There is nothing, abso-" "Quit preachin' to the choir."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Southeast Michigan | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 08:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warren,
I, and most here, value all of your input. You seem a thoughtful, interesting person, if a bit misguided politically.
But that's the point, we are different and can speak our minds here, and as long as we maintain respect and some decorum we can say most anything.
I've always wanted to sail a Star. I've a working model sailboat, built by my father out of orange crate lumber, that is a big Star with cabin added. All kinda rough and 'folk artish', but it shows where his mind was turning in 1930 at thirteen years old, towards a Star. He grew up in central Ohio, and Stars were a big class in the the northern cities of Sandusky and Cleveland. Still an exciting boat, by all accounts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
Memphis Mike
.
Member # 6715
posted 10-18-2003 09:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donn, you truly are a mean spirited person. By posting this, you may very well send Jack to the nervous hospital.
--------------------
"Don't think so much and you'll never have to change your mind."
Rev. Billy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Memphis,Tn. | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 09:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as being politically misguided, Jack. Please pull any of my previous 2000+ posts, ... and now that hindsight is upon us, I'll discuss anything that I've writen, Please do it. I am not bluffed by Americam Capitalism and her greed and to use your word, largesse(spelling?, I hadn't even heard the word until you wrote it).
Jack I will discuss it/them in fine detail. I was waiting for the opportunity to say, I told you so. I view the Forum as Chronicling our times.
Warren.
ps, go and find the politically misguided holes, Sir. Then we will compare notes. All notes referred too, must be on the Forum already, Jack, ... one digs one's own grave..
[ 10-18-2003, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Fishboat
.
Member # 6986
posted 10-18-2003 09:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't really tell if the there's a downhill slide as I've only read the board for about a year. I do find the obligatory(?) and seemingly endless "Who died today...RIP" posts a good reason to skip the entire People & Places board...oh, sorry Donn.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Great Lakes | IP: Logged
Mike Field
.
Member # 2239
posted 10-18-2003 09:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
Jack, as you would know, I've been "a recipient of one of Donn's special attentions in the past," as indeed he has been of mine.
If Donn would like to see the Forum with less "crap" on it, great. He would certainly not be alone in that. However, as Dan says in another thread, having dished out so much of that same crap himself in the past I don't think Donn's really now in a position to start complaining about how much of it there is.
Warren's used some pretty stiff language maybe, but his sentiment's perfectly correct. (In fact, looking back at his post, I"m not sure his language isn't really pretty temperate after all, anyway.)
What's more, I echo the comment Dan makes above -- the rightful place for this thread is in the bilge, not here.
It would be nice to think that Donn's behaviour has indeed changed a bit, but the proof of the pudding's in the eating after all, not in a statement of possible intention. And frankly, given the amount of that same crap of which he now complains that he himself has dished out in the past, it's going to need a pretty big behavioural swing to make me sit up and take any notice.
I'm still convinceable, though.
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Western Port, Victoria, Australia | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 09:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jumpy! Geez, if a man can't take a little well meant jibe I worry about him. I even put the smiley at the end of it.
How 'bout them Stars Warren?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 09:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack, I would own and race a Star, but I can't deep launch from our Sea Scout's beach. I would have to leave my friends, to do it. Racing good boats will nearly make up for it, ... maybe. If I finish fixing the boat, the Star, I'll get her, her owner is retiring. I'm also a bit light, for Star Class, at only 80kg. My normal (most are abnormal) crewman, Adam, isn't light, he is a montser, 120kg. Guys that big aren't easy to find, ... most that size are scared of water.
Warren.
ps, Do you think Daytona Speedway looks like an Olympic course? I prefer the l/ward w/ward, more of a sprint.
[ 10-18-2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 10:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ps, Do you think Daytona Speedway looks like an Olympic course?, ... I prefer the w/ward l/ward, more of a sprint.
What's that mean? You'll forgive me, you know more about Daytona than I do. I know it's a place where people race cars but that's it. Strange you should know it at all.
Stars. Interesting, any keelboat that still relies on heft to sail it well. My father's model has a keel of lead. It's a sheet of lead, screwed to the bottom with a couple wings. It's all pounded, like he made it with a hammer out of a chunk, over many hours. Ah, the fascinations of youth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 10:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack, I just changed the course then to l/ward, w/ward, the wind shifted and the start would have bunched. Delayed the start by 10. Shift the mark to 55o off, 2 mins at 20kts then drop. Don't you guys personally set your courses over there?, ... ISAF rules only over here.
Daytona is the Olympic trapizoid. Like the long course on Lake Illawara, close to home.
The Forum should not have had a war, lets race.
Warren.
[ 10-18-2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 10:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warren,
I don't speak the idiom, but start a thread about your dinghy racing experiences. You probably have, but do it again. Use your gifts and explain them well.
Jack
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
paladin
.
Member # 2645
posted 10-18-2003 10:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how about taking this back to the bilge.....
--------------------
..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chesapeake Beach, Md 20732 U.S.A. | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 10:37 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck, I would have imagined you would have appreciated the metaphore. Wrong again hey?
Warren.
[ 10-18-2003, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Ex-Oceangoddess
.
Member # 6754
posted 10-18-2003 10:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never read the bilge, or go there, and if this is the sort of thing that goes on, my instincts are right.
I learn a lot on this forum - about wooden boats and boatbuilding - that's why I come here. I don't need to debate anything else here, and since there are a kazillion sites on the internet where people can vent their own particular peculiar political preferences I can't really see why they gum up this bilge.
Whatever....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Helena MT | IP: Logged
Bruce Taylor
.
Member # 2142
posted 10-18-2003 10:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some time ago, the forum swallowed a fly. Then it swallowed a spider to get rid of the fly, and you know the rest of the story.
Jack, when I first came to the forum there were no topics like "partial birth murder" (all caps, and four EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!) and there was certainly nothing like the sort of garbage that fills that thread. If there had been, I wouldn't have stuck around. If you don't notice the deterioration it must be because you've kept pace with it, lowering your expectations as the quality of the talk goes down.
Dan, Warren and others...Donn's trying to straighten up, and that's a good thing. Taunting him, and questioning his sincerity, is not a good thing, regardless of any injury he might have done you in the past. Give him the benefit of the doubt, and hold him to the high standard he's setting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Wakefield, Quebec, Canada | IP: Logged
Memphis Mike
.
Member # 6715
posted 10-18-2003 10:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember when the political threads first started showing up in here. I knew they would cause hard feelings amoung the members and stated such.
I'd like to see political topics made off limits. Deleted by the administrator and if it becomes too much of a problem then kill Misc. Non Boat.
There are other forums on the net for those that feel they must discuss politics.
BTW, I'm as guilty as the rest but this isn't a matter of guilt. I know exactly what Donn is saying. It's just plain damn boring to have to wade through all of the garbage to get to something interesting.
--------------------
"Don't think so much and you'll never have to change your mind."
Rev. Billy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Memphis,Tn. | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 10:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce, Noble and yes, ... but only until the next time they lose it.
Warren.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Wild Wassa
.
Member # 4490
posted 10-18-2003 10:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Memphis, you were the first one to call me a coward, ... after I'd just come off a 13 hour shift on a fire line, talk is cheap and very forgetable in the US. Let's get this right Sunshine. The degeneration started where, MM?
In fact Memphis I hadn't been to bed for 4 days (but I did crash), I'd been fighting fires, ... then this prick said, "any one who was against the war was a coward." Wacky doo Memphis.
You guys who were rude, owe appologies to those you **** on, who were correct, and have been proven to be correct, the fact that the US is running cap in hand to the International Community backs this. Piss weak US.
I should have said, have you been told?
Warren.
[ 10-18-2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Australian Capital Territory, | IP: Logged
Jack Heinlen
.
Member # 5747
posted 10-18-2003 10:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't notice the deterioration it must be because you've kept pace with it, lowering your expectations as the quality of the talk goes down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best W.C. Fields demeanor: Probably true, probably true.
What do you suggest my friend? I've suggested raising the level rather than throwing out the baby.
"Be careful that in casting out your demons you don't also lose your angels." Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Valley of the Penobscot | IP: Logged
JimD
.
Member # 4669
posted 10-18-2003 11:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ex-Oceangoddess:
I never read the bilge, or go there, and if this is the sort of thing that goes on, my instincts are right...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(edited by JimD for brevity)
It seems if some members won't go to the bilge then (sadly) the bilge will go to them, thanks to donn.
Donn, you're part of the problem posing as the solution. You should know better than to pull a stunt like this. Please move or lose this thread.
--------------------
You should not try to lug along what you are trying to leave behind - L Francis Herreshoff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Turner Valley, Alberta, Canada | IP: Logged
:D :D