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ljb5
09-08-2004, 08:14 PM
I only caught the end of it, but what I did see was explosive.

Besides Barnes admitting his role in getting Bush into the TANG, which we already knew , Dan Rather presented some new documents.

It turns out that Bush's commander in Texas kept some old memos until his death in 1984. Among these, he comments that Bush called him to try to work out some way that he wouldn't have to do any drills for the the remainder of his service. Later, he commented that Bush went to someone "upstairs" to finangle out of duty.

He also elaborated on the situation with Bush's suspension from flying. Apparently it was more than just missing a medical exam.

Coupled with the new information about his failure to report to duty in Boston, it seems like this story won't go away.

Captain Pre-Capsize
09-08-2004, 08:18 PM
Try this on:

Bush has released ALL of his military records.

Kerry has not and despite continued requests by the media continues to refuse to.

So who has something to hide?

Bruce G
09-08-2004, 08:18 PM
http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/no_effin_way.jpg

ljb5
09-08-2004, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Captain Pre-Capsize:
Try this on:

Bush has released ALL of his military records.

Kerry has not and despite continued requests by the media continues to refuse to.

So who has something to hide?First, how can you believe that? They released more of Bush's records yesterday, after telling us for years they had all been released.

Second, those documents that have been released are incomplete.

Third, the documents that have been released clearly show that he failed to show up for duty in Alabama and Boston.

Fourth, Kerry's documents can be obtained here. (http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html)

ljb5
09-08-2004, 09:10 PM
Bush didn't sign his 180.

ljb5
09-08-2004, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Ironmule:
All of the documents Kerry wants us to see, but not all of those that would be released by form 180.

Jeff SmithWhy do you care? You haven't even read the documents that have been released. A hundred pages or so -- all very laudatory.

LeeG
09-08-2004, 11:33 PM
it's inevitable that the final dash to the election would involve a second go around for both candidates. "if he can lie about this what else can he lie about?"
This is about the time for Jacks refrain "there are some people who should be heard"
"it's not the deception that happened 30yrs ago,,it's the deception he's upheld in the last 4 years."
yada, yada.
Who brought down the last hijacked jet? not gw or kerry.
Who rescued and died in 9/11? not gw or kerry.
Who is in iraq? not gw or kerry.
Who knows about mistakes made by politicians far from the battle field? not gw.

Bob Smalser
09-08-2004, 11:39 PM
Explosive?

Heaven-sent for Bush....plays right into his strategy.

The Dems really do need to hire Meer or somebody else who can think past their nose.


Y'know, this ain't a bad gunfight at all...

Kerry attacks Bush's ancient AFNG service thru MoveOn.org while drawing attention to his own ancient hero medals...

...all designed to draw attention away for his anti-defense voting record...

...then salutes and "reports for duty" at the DNC.

Meanwhile...Bush creates SwiftboatVets.org and we find out that over half of Kerry's old mates hate his guts with passion and vigor...and that awful Kerry VNVAW atrocity testimony is replayed...and replayed...and replayed...

...then Meat-Eating Marine Miller and a "sensitive" Cheney bring down the hammer on his awful Senate record. Truly awful...and those were just the few days he showed up "for duty".

And Kerry is now firing staff.

The debates will be important, but Kerry has got to get out of his Swift Boat hole or I sense he is in deep trouble.

Kerry needs to hire you, Meer...he obviously doesn't have a strategist anywhere near as bright Keeping the argument about individual sins of 4 decades ago just keeps folks away from Bush's mixed track record.

Folks'll forgive sins if the sinner repents...and Bush freely admits those were his drunk fratboy days. He remains imminently likable, AWOL or not. The hard-living good 'ole boy who found God.

Kerry comes across like he thinks he walks on water. Sophisticated...vain...aloof...European-looking. He never did anything wrong in his life and reminds you of that regularly. In the mean time....folks wonder why over half of his own shipmates spit on the ground he walks on...

....and it's good news for Kerry that 60 Minutes is prolonging the VN arguments?

Sorry fellas...you picked the wrong horse.

Lieberman mighta even got my vote. Some folks need to learn to think past their nose.

[ 09-09-2004, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

Jack Heinlen
09-08-2004, 11:50 PM
Bob,

:D

I just said basically the same thing on ljb's parallel thread.

This full court media press, going after Bush's military record, is interesting, but it's a sideshow.

Kev Smyth
09-08-2004, 11:50 PM
When this is over I think the Kerry campaign will be seen as the most incompetent democratic effort ever, worse than Dukakis. And it's going to get worse with Carville and Begalia onboard. :rolleyes: :D

High C
09-09-2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Jack Heinlen:
...but it's a sideshow.It's a sideshow, all right. Especially now that the Clinton clowns have taken over. :D

Kerry should've had the good sense to stick with the folks who got him this far. They did quite well considering how little they had to work with. Now he's fallen for Clinton's trap.

This will be great fun to watch. :D

DavesFlatsBoat
09-09-2004, 12:13 AM
Kerry & the DNC played the AWOL card too early - way back in February/March - typical of liberals and others without much artillery - always a bit premature on pulling the trigger so to speak.

There is nothing new in the released records except that for a part-time ANG newbie - LT Bush put in a lot of seat time. And, he was somewhat proficient in navigation.

Considering that about 250 of the 1000 F102s were lost during operations over its usage history, strapping your butt into one took some cajones.

LeeG
09-09-2004, 12:57 AM
yes Jack, it's a side show. Got any peanuts?

Meerkat
09-09-2004, 01:21 AM
Perk! Carville is onboard the Kerry campaign? Let's see, he toasted daddy Bush and Dole (admittedly not hard to do in Dole's case, although he was a decorated war hero)...

Bob, I think we've got our "see past his nose" manager now. :D

It's going to be a fascinating 2 months. smile.gif

Bob Smalser
09-09-2004, 01:25 AM
Bob, I think we've got our "see past his nose" manager now.
Too little....and way too late.

High C
09-09-2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Meerkat:
Perk! Carville is onboard the Kerry campaign? Let's see, he toasted daddy Bush and Dole...Hardly. You have Ross Perot to thank for the Clinton victories. Carville failed both times to garner even a majority of the popular vote for Clinton, despite a roaring economy in 1996.

If James Carville is the face you want to put on the Democrat party, then you're welcome to him. I can't imagine a better way to turn people off.

km gresham
09-09-2004, 08:57 AM
Bruce :D I like the campaign button.

Joe (SoCal)
09-09-2004, 08:59 AM
Donn that is a good book I have a copy - Tess picked it out :D

Fun, well written and nicely illustrated book :D

[ 09-09-2004, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

Meerkat
09-09-2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Bob, I think we've got our "see past his nose" manager now.
Too little....and way too late.</font>[/QUOTE]We'll see. They have a much bigger war chest going into the last 2 months than Shrub does.

Meerkat
09-09-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by High C:
I can't imagine a better way to turn people off.Oh yee of little imagination!

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/cheney_zoloft.jpg

[ 09-09-2004, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

James R
09-09-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by ljb5:
It turns out that Bush's commander in Texas kept some old memos until his death in 1984.Following are PDF copies of these memos from the CBS Website:

Memorandum, May 4, 1972 (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay4.pdf)
Memo to File, May 19, 1972 (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay19.pdf)
Memorandum For Record, Aug. 1, 1972 (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf)
Memo to File, Aug. 18, 1973 (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust18.pdf)

Take a look at the "th" in 187th and 111th Squadrons in the first and last memos. Were typewriters at the time able to do superscript? I don't think that they did but I may be wrong. Does anybody with better memory than me care to comment? What about proportional spacing? These memos have proportionally spaced letters. Typewriters didn't do that back then.

I'm inclined to believe that these memos are forgeries and that CBS was hoodwinked.

ljb5
09-09-2004, 01:55 PM
I'm no expert on typewriters of the 1970s.

However, Dan Rather did say that they took the memos to a document expert and a handwriting expert and had them authenticated.

Gresham CA
09-09-2004, 01:58 PM
James, I worked for IBM for their OP division in '77 and '78 and if I remember correctly they did not routinely do superscript. Proportional spacing yes. You could likely get special typebars for superscript but I can't see the military doing that.

edited to add: It would be fairly difficult to get the older Selectric(the one with the ball) to do superscript. (this stuff is slowly coming back to me smile.gif )

[ 09-09-2004, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Gresham CA ]

Meerkat
09-09-2004, 02:02 PM
If it was an IBM Selectric with the right typeball, it would have been trivial to do sub/superscripting.

ljb5
09-09-2004, 02:06 PM
The IBM Selectric was introduced in 1961. The Selectric II was introduced ten years later. Both had the capability of changing font and superscript.

Gresham CA
09-09-2004, 02:08 PM
Not so Meer. The timing and fine adjustments needed just to make the regular letters work was mind boggling. To get one to work that is offset from the centerline of the platten would quickly destroy the plastic type ball. That is why I said it would be easier for the typebar machine.

edited for spelling.

[ 09-09-2004, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Gresham CA ]

Scott Rosen
09-09-2004, 02:16 PM
This is terrible news for Kerry. The public grew tired of hearing about Bush's Vietnam record a long time ago and has already considered it in forming their opinions. These new memos, even if true, aren't going to change many minds.

However, the Vietnam discussion has hurt Kerry badly, and any mention of Vietnam in the campaign just serves to remind the voters of the controversy surrounding Kerry's service.

Kerry still doesn't have a coherent message on how he would deal with Iraq and terror. His message on the economy is incomprehensible and shallow even by today's sound-bite standards. He rails against outsourcing, but doesn't offer any practical suggestions on what to do about it.

Unless a lot of people lose their jobs between now and election day, this is shaping up be a landslide for Bush.

Boomkin Joe
09-09-2004, 02:19 PM
Bush freely admits those were his drunk fratboy days.

Where'n'when, Bob? In which newspaper? Can he prove those days are gone?

km gresham
09-09-2004, 02:20 PM
Maybe not a landslide, Scott ;) . You're correct on all other points. People have taken President Bush's measure for 4 years and they're still trying to figure out who the heck Kerry is and what, if anything, he stands for.

[ 09-09-2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

Jim H
09-09-2004, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by DavesFlatsBoat:
Kerry & the DNC played the AWOL card too early - way back in February/March - I was watching the news the other day, and some pundit asked if it was time for the Kerry campaign to go negative. It seems to me that the DNC went negative in January 2001 and since then every major and minor party member has been blasting the Bush Administration. How can they get more negative? If this was a really close election and they were appealing to the undecided, then going negative on Bush is old news, it's been done to death over the last 3 years.

If the DNC had nominated Dean we would have had a real race, based on ideas not mudslinging.

Meerkat
09-09-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by km gresham:
Maybe not a landslide, Scott ;) . You're correct on all other points. People have taken President Bush's measure for 4 years and they're still trying to figure out who the heck Kerry is and what, if anything, he stands for.We sure have taken his measure. Far more deadly and dangerous to peace, prosperity and freedom than Osama binLadin. He only had a couple of airplanes flown into buildings, killing a few thousand. Shrub has had airplanes flown into entire countries and gotten 10's of thousands killed.

ljb5
09-09-2004, 03:37 PM
Bush got just enough rope to hang himself with.

If these memos came out four years ago, he could have simply acknowledged them - maybe even apoligized for shirking, and then moved on.

But he spent four years spinning and lying and it's going to catch up with him.

Already Dan Bartlett has admitted to "misspeaking" when he said that Bush served the remainder of his duty in Boston.

Some of these recent memos were marked to be included in Bush's file, but weren't there. The White House now has to explain why they weren't there. They should have done the sensible thing and ask the archives to release the records to the press, rather than release them to Bush so that he could release them to the press.

Words like "sugar coat" are going to stand out in people's minds. Why did Bush's record need to be sugar coated?

They story isn't about what Bush did 30 years ago - it's about the lies he continues to tell. Pretty soon there will be some questions about Karen Hughes's visit to the archives to "make sure there's nothing in there that might embarrass him."

James R
09-09-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Meerkat:
If it was an IBM Selectric with the right typeball, it would have been trivial to do sub/superscripting.But to change the font size of the superscript you would have to change the typeball. Or am I wrong in assuming so?

ljb5
09-09-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by James R:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Meerkat:
If it was an IBM Selectric with the right typeball, it would have been trivial to do sub/superscripting.But to change the font size of the superscript you would have to change the typeball. Or am I wrong in assuming so?</font>[/QUOTE]I think the superscript "th" is just a special character, like the @ or #.

Joe (SoCal)
09-09-2004, 04:08 PM
To further the conspiracy the IBM Selectric II came out one year before the memo was written

The Selectric typewriter was first released in 1961 and is generally considered to be a design classic. After the Selectric II was introduced a few years later, the original design was designated the Selectric I. The Correcting Selectric II differed from the Selectric I in many respects:

The Selectric II was squarer at the corners, whereas the Selectric I was rounder.

The Selectric II had a Dual Pitch option to allow it to be switched (with a lever at the top left of the "carriage") between 10 and 12 characters per inch, whereas the Selectric I had one fixed "pitch".

The Selectric II had a lever (at the top left of the "carriage") that allowed characters to be shifted up to a half space to the left (for inserting a word one character longer or shorter in place of a deleted mistake), whereas the Selectric I did not.

The Selectric II had optional auto-correction (with the extra key at the bottom right of the keyboard), whereas the Selectric I did not. (The white correction tape was at the left of the typeball and its orange take-up spool at the right of the typeball.)

The Selectric II had a lever (above the right platen knob) that would allow the platen to be turned freely but return to the same vertical line (for inserting such symbols as subscripts and superscripts), whereas the Selectric I did not.

http://www.etypewriters.com/se-ii.jpg

http://www.etypewriters.com/history.htm

[ 09-09-2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

Joe (SoCal)
09-09-2004, 04:28 PM
Oh I forgot Donn, unlike President Bush You Were There ™ Did you type that report ???

So your saying the memo is forged - its all black ops covert democratic liberal mass media spin :rolleyes:

Hey Ya know what I honestly do not care what party Bush had to go to 30 years ago that he couldn't remember to report. I don't like him for what he has done the last four years

Jack Heinlen
09-09-2004, 04:34 PM
This is easily solved. Any half-way decent document forensist(sp?) could probably clear it up in a day or less.

Who controls the documents at this point? I'd love to see CBS eat crow on this one. You would think they'd have a decent document examiner on staff so riff raff doesn't get in the door, but you never know. A rush to judgement might well have quashed cooler heads in this partisan newsroom.

ljb5
09-09-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Jack Heinlen:
This is easily solved. Any half-way decent document forensist(sp?) could probably clear it up in a day or less.Dan Rather said last night, on national TV, that the doucments had been analyzed and authenticated by a specialist.

Joe (SoCal)
09-09-2004, 04:43 PM
Jack I imagine given the political probing and partisan politics that goes on over such things that if CBS took the memos to a document expert and a handwriting expert and had them authenticated. They probably spent more time authenticating these documents than the shroud of Turin.

But then again there are those on the WBF that WERE THERE ™

[ 09-09-2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

ljb5
09-09-2004, 04:44 PM
Here you go:

"60 Minutes consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic." (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main641984.shtml)

Joe (SoCal)
09-09-2004, 04:49 PM
http://www.pete-online.us/Images/EatCrow.jpg

Bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha :D :D :D

© Joe ( Witty Guy© )

[ 09-09-2004, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

Puddintane
09-09-2004, 04:54 PM
Nobody in their right mind would want George Bush to be re-elected.

Joe (SoCal)
09-09-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Puddintane:
Nobody in their right mind would want George Bush to be re-elected..
Member # 8925
posted 09-09-2004 05:54 PM *** ** * * * **
Posts: 1 | From: Spring, Texas

Sniff hmmmmmm 3 formites from the same town in TX ????? :rolleyes:

First post Puddintane ??? :rolleyes: Hmmmmmmmmm
Lets see what happens fellas could be interesting

© Joe ( Witty Guy© )

[ 09-09-2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

Puddintane
09-09-2004, 05:08 PM
Just consider me a longtime lurker.

High C
09-09-2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Puddintane:
Nobody in their right mind would want George Bush to be re-elected.Hey! What's your name? ;)

htom
09-09-2004, 05:18 PM
http://www.indcjournal.com/

(UPDATED: "At Least" 90% Positive They're Fake)

Are the CBS National Guard Documents Fake?

INDC Exclusive. Must Credit INDC.

Based on Powerline's suspicions of forgery over the documents put forth regarding George W. Bush?s National Guard service, I decided to do some legwork and track down the opinions of forensic document examiners that may have an expertise in old typefaces.

After contacting several experts, a rather notable Forensic Document Examiner named Dr. Philip Bouffard took the time to examine a pdf of the documents and perform an initial visual analysis of their authenticity. Dr. Bouffard has a PhD in Chemistry from the University of Michigan, but got involved in forensic examination of typefaces after working in ?graphics? with NCR until 1973 and taking a two-year Certification Program in Document Examination at Georgetown University. After completing the program, he became specifically interested in typewriter classification and went to work for a prosecutor?s crime lab in Lake County, Ohio.

Using something called the Haas Atlas, the definitive collection of various typefaces, Mr. Bouffard (and other forensic document examiners) examined the veracity of various documents for over 30 years. Beginning in 1988, Mr. Bouffard hired a programmer to write a computer database program that catalogues the nearly 4,000 typefaces that appear in the Haas Atlas. This computer program is now a forensic standard that is sold as a companion to the Haas Atlas by American Society of Questioned Document Examiners (ASQDE). Though semi-retired, Dr. Bouffard is one of the top two experts in forensic document examination (regarding typefaces) in the country.

UPDATE: The name of the program that Dr. Bouffard developed is called "The Typewriter Typestyle Classification Program" (C:\TYPE).

What did Dr. Bouffard think of the documents?

First, the necessary caveats:

? The pdf document is of poor quality. It seems to have been copied and recopied several times, blurring letter characteristics.

? Also, certain types of analysis can only be done on the original documents, which don?t seem to be available, even to CBS.

So Dr. Bouffard is very clear that his analysis is not 100% positive. That being said ?

?It?s just possible that this might be a Times Roman font, which means that it would have been created on a computer. It?s very possible that someone decided to create this document on a computer... I?ve run across this situation before ? my gut is this could just well be a fabrication.?

The reasons why?

? Right off the bat, Dr. Bouffard noted what others in the blogosphere have been talking about ? something called ?proportional spacing,? which means that each letter does not take up the same amount of width on the page. On old typewriters that do not have proportional spacing, the letter ?i? would be as wide as the letter ?m.? Except for professional typesetting, proportional spacing was only available on a very few models (an IBM model, "Executive" and perhaps one or two other models Mini-Update: Dr. Bouffard e-mails to correct me that it was seven or eight possible models, not one or two - Ed) that were not widely available in 1972-73; the vast majority of typewriters did not have proportional spacing. Because of this, Dr. Bouffard?s computer program immediately eliminated ?over 90%? of the possible fonts from typewriters that could create such a document, narrowing it down to perhaps 15 fonts used by a very few models.

? Next, Dr. Bouffard began entering individual characters in an attempt to match them to the remaining fonts that were available on proportional spacing typewriters of that era, focusing on numbers. Thus far, one character stood out, the number ?4.? In the document provided by CBS News, the number 4 does not "have a foot" and has a ?closed top,? which is indicative of Times New Roman, a font exclusive to more modern computer word processing programs. Other characters matched the old proportional spacing fonts (available on only a small few typewriters of the era), but this number did not (please note that this is only an initial analysis with numerical characters).

Dr. Bouffard ran this number and could not find a match in his entire database of over 4,000 typewriter fonts that have been maintained and collected into his computer database since 1988. Otherwise, the font is very indicative of Times New Roman, the font that is only available on computer word processing programs.

The final word?

Once again, let?s not forget the qualifications: it's a bad copy of a copy and we have no original document for review, but, based on the initial analysis of the documents by an industry expert with over 30 years of experience in typesetting and forensic document examination, the documents ?could just well be a fabrication.?

In light of this information, I think that it would be highly appropriate for CBS News and the Boston Globe to attempt to obtain a copy of the original document for more thorough vetting, and run a correction/addendum to the story.

I still have two other forensic document examiners that are examining the pdf file, and I will update if/when they get back to me. I also plan to ask Dr. Bouffard more detail about the nature of the "th" on the end of dates, though in our first conversation he indicated that some typewriters had the capability to do something in that format.

UPDATE: Dr. Bouffard called me again, and after further analysis, he says that he's pretty certain that it's a fake.

Here's why

...

Keith Wilson
09-09-2004, 05:19 PM
Right. :rolleyes: Kerry gets medals in Vietnam, and the right wing claims the documents are bogus (well, not actually claims - hints without any actual evidence is more like it ). It looks like Bush bugged out of part of his National Guard service and, you guessed it, our friends on the right say the documents are bogus! Wow, there sure are a lot of forged documents around, aren't there? There are probably twenty or thirty full-time forgers paid by the DNC - hey, I heard it on the Druge report!

Any word on the necrophilia allegations? How about Teresa Heinz Kerry's cannibalistic habits and the roast baby for thanksgiving dinner?

Jack Heinlen
09-09-2004, 05:36 PM
Right. Kerry gets medals in Vietnam, and the right wing claims the documents are bogus (well, not actually claims - hints without any actual evidence is more like it ). It looks like Bush bugged out of part of his National Guard service and, you guessed it, our friends on the right say the documents are bogus! It's logically consistent to look for forgeries in both cases.

ljb5
09-09-2004, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Jack Heinlen:
It's logically consistent to look for forgeries in both cases.Perhaps, but it reeks of desperation. When the facts are against you, wage war on the facts!

Jack Heinlen
09-09-2004, 06:05 PM
Passing forged documents as genuine would be a much more desperate move than establishing their provenance.

Bob Smalser
09-09-2004, 06:18 PM
Nero fiddled while Rome burned...

...the Dems and Dem allies keep pissing into the wind over the sins of 1972...

...and the Republican strategists all cackle with glee.

Can we all spell dense?

Can we all spell obtuse?

All together now...."ohhh....beee...teee...

km gresham
09-09-2004, 06:30 PM
Curioser and curioser.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040909_1710.html

ljb5
09-09-2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Jack Heinlen:
Passing forged documents as genuine would be a much more desperate move than establishing their provenance.But you believed that Iraq was trying to buy yellow cake from Niger?

LeeG
09-09-2004, 06:44 PM
dang it lj I was already to type that one out. sigh. Except there was no desperation back then,,C.Rice simply said the forged document was irrelevent,,the troops were in.
The desperation is Cheney saying that a vote for Kerry is a vote for another terrorist attack.

Gresham CA
09-09-2004, 07:00 PM
Y'all need to pay attention to this Dr.Bouffard. He knows what he is talking about. Trust me on this one. Even if this isn't a real guy(this is the internet you know), whoever is writing this KNOWS.

Kev Smyth
09-09-2004, 07:17 PM
Unbelievable. :eek: :( This has got to be the new low for mainstream media. It'll be interesting to see what kind of follow-up takes place, and who drives it.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-09-2004, 07:19 PM
No he does not.

Times New Roman "exclusive to modern computer programs" :rolleyes: :D :D :D

Somebody ought to tell him, and Donn for sure knows the answer, only it don't suit his case to spill the beans, so I will have to...

...but let's see if anyone can guess, first...

BIG, FAT, CLUE - WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE IT IS CALLED "TIMES NEW ROMAN"?

ljb5
09-09-2004, 07:20 PM
Well, it'll be interesting alright.

Dan Rather doesn't usually make mistakes, but when he does, he <u>always</u> admits them. (Unlike Drudge).

One thing I've already learned is that the IBM executive was common in the early 70's, so we know right off the bat that anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-09-2004, 07:25 PM
OK, here y'all are:

http://www.truetype.demon.co.uk/articles/times.htm

LeeG
09-09-2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Donn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The desperation is Cheney saying that a vote for Kerry is a vote for another terrorist attack. That's not what I heard. I heard him say that when the next attack comes, Bush will provide better leadership than Kerry.

Guess it's all in the ear of beholder.</font>[/QUOTE]So if another attack comes from an islamic jihadist from a collection of middle east countries we'll invade north Korea and build more untested Ballistic missle interceptors.

I understand past performance is not a predictor of future returns,,but GW does have a track record.

High C
09-09-2004, 07:29 PM
:D :D :D :D :D

Bob Smalser
09-09-2004, 07:32 PM
Dan Rather always admits mistakes?

Pshaw. You know this guy?

I do....was interviewed by him at the end of GWI.

Introduced himself as "an ex-marine during the Korean War".

So I says to myself, "Bob....maybe you been wrong all along and this sniveling puke is really a standup guy?"

Several years later back stateside, I find out Rather was discharged out of boot camp because he couldn't hang in there physically.

Yup....he was a Marine all right...

...a boot in 1954 for about three weeks.

[ 09-09-2004, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

Puddintane
09-09-2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by High C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Puddintane:
Nobody in their right mind would want George Bush to be re-elected.Hey! What's your name? ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Puddintane. Ask me again and I'll tell you the same.

Kev Smyth
09-09-2004, 07:46 PM
Welcome home, Puddintane. :D tongue.gif

[ 09-09-2004, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Kev Smyth ]

Jack Heinlen
09-09-2004, 07:52 PM
They're beginning to look a lot like forgeries.

http://weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=4596&R=9FCD2F192

What will those desperate Dems think of next? :D

Puddintane
09-09-2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Kev Smyth:
Welcome home, Puddintane. :D tongue.gif Why thank you Mr. Kev Smyth. It does feel a little stuffy in here though. There seems to be a lot of Republicans, just like Spring.

Bob Smalser
09-09-2004, 07:57 PM
Rather is a phony...

...why shouldn't his work be?

LeeG
09-09-2004, 07:58 PM
Jack,,why didn't GW get his physical?

Why did Kerry kill Vietnamese?

Why did GW put us in Iraq?

High C
09-09-2004, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Puddintane:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by High C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Puddintane:
Nobody in their right mind would want George Bush to be re-elected.Hey! What's your name? ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Puddintane. Ask me again and I'll tell you the same.</font>[/QUOTE]:D

km gresham
09-09-2004, 08:10 PM
And now this.

A woman purporting to be Amy Barnes, daughter of former Texas Lieutenant Gov. Ben Barnes, said Thursday that her father had fabricated claims that he used his influence to get President Bush into the Texas Air National Guard 36 years ago.

In a phone call to WBAP's Mark Davis radio show in Dallas, Texas, Ms. Barnes told guest host Monica Crowley that her father was an "opportunist" who had lied about Bush's Guard record during a "60 Minutes II" broadcast Tuesday night.

BARNES: I love my father very much but he's doing this for purely political reasons. He is a big Kerry fundraiser and he is writing a book also. And [the Bush story] is what he's leading the book off with . . . He denied this to me in 2000 that he did get Bush out [of Vietnam service]. Now he's saying he did.

CROWLEY: Did he tell you, Amy - and I'm glad I have you on the line with me - did your father tell you that he was prepared to do this on behalf of John Kerry - go after President Bush like this?

BARNES: He told me he was going to do it. In fact I talked to him a couple of months ago. He told me he was writing the book. He told me that he was going to be talking about this. And he knows that I - we have very diverse political opinions. He knows my opinions and we get into this debate every time I see him. But, you know, he said that he was going to be talking about it.

CROWLEY: Now you're saying, Amy, that he has had two separate stories on President Bush's Guard duty during the Vietnam era?

BARNES: Yes, yes. This came out in 2000 and I asked him then, at the time, if he [helped get Bush into the Guard]. He said, "No, absolutely not. I did not do that."

CROWLEY: So, I hate to put you in this position but I will ask you, do you think your father, Ben Barnes - who was on "60 Minutes II" with Dan Rather last night - do you believe that he lied on the air to the American people last night about President Bush?

BARNES; Yes, I do. I absolutely do. And I think he's doing he's doing it for purely political, opportunistic reasons - trying to get John Kerry elected and trying to make Bush look like the bad person. . . . Like I said, he's going to be trying to promote his book that he's got coming out. [End of Excerpt]

Crowley's colleague, WABC Radio's Mark Levin, aired a tape of the exchange in New York after confirming that Barnes' does indeed have a daughter named Amy.

Jack Heinlen
09-09-2004, 08:23 PM
Hm, interesting, Carville comes on board and this sorta gumbo immediately starts stinkin' up the kitchen. Coincidence? ;)

LeeG
09-09-2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by LeeG:
Jack,,why didn't GW get his physical?

Why did Kerry kill Vietnamese?

Why did GW put us in Iraq?tsk,tsk
GW was a party guy,,no problem with that.

Following his leaders

Following his leaders

Meerkat
09-09-2004, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
No he does not.

Times New Roman "exclusive to modern computer programs" :rolleyes: :D :D :D

Somebody ought to tell him, and Donn for sure knows the answer, only it don't suit his case to spill the beans, so I will have to...

...but let's see if anyone can guess, first...

BIG, FAT, CLUE - WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE IT IS CALLED "TIMES NEW ROMAN"? Heh - it's called that because it's a copy of a font with a trademarked name. The font itself is not particularly new. It's like "Swiss" is a copy of Helvetica.

High C
09-09-2004, 09:39 PM
"th"

:D :D :D

Meerkat
09-09-2004, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Donn:
The typewriter I used in the Marines, in 1970, was an Underwood 5, the same machine I learned on in high school. I'd bet my bottom dollar that no Reserve unit had Selectrics.Not even the Dallas Flying Club, as the TANG is/was known? :D

My highschool typing class had selectrics in 1968. On the other hand, the Navy Com Center at the base I was stationed at had old manual typewriters through 1971 (and was transitioning to, of all things, "computer" punch cards!). I would bet that a reserve unit might have more access and/or private machines than a vietnam base where reliance on a relatively delicate electric machine could be a problem.

High C
09-09-2004, 09:54 PM
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/imoby/images/carvillefl.jpg

:D "th" :D

Kev Smyth
09-09-2004, 10:00 PM
"th" :D :D :D :D

"Duh?" :D :D ;)

Amateur Night at the Apollo

Kev Smyth
09-10-2004, 12:01 AM
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THU SEPT 09, 2004 22:45:32 ET XXXXX

CBSNEWS LAUNCHES INTERNAL INVESTIGATION AFTER SUSPICIOUS BUSH DOCS AIRED

**Exclusive**

CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush's National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.

The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being privately "shell-shocked" by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent.

Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-10-2004, 03:29 AM
Donn, what I have just shown is that anyone who holds him or herself out as an expert on typefaces and who then says that Times Roman or Times New Roman was not used before word processors is not someone to be taken seriously; as you certainly know, Times New Roman was a typeface developed for and by the Times newspaper before WW2.

There are genuine experts in this field; much money can turn on whether a will was typed on a contemporary machine and on contemporary paper.

I can take you to a couple of such in London, who make their living as expert witnesses used by solicitors concerned with the validation of wills, so I have no doubt that there are also such experts in the USA.

You will note that I include the dating of the paper as well as the typeface; something which perhaps deserves enquiry here.

km gresham
09-10-2004, 06:51 AM
Question. Who had the brilliant idea that forged documents would help Kerry beat Bush? Who was convinced that the deception would never be discovered (it was discovered almost immediately)?

Kerry needs to tell these people to stop "helping" him - NOW! :D

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-10-2004, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by htom:
http://www.indcjournal.com/

(UPDATED: "At Least" 90% Positive They're Fake)

Are the CBS National Guard Documents Fake?

INDC Exclusive. Must Credit INDC.

Based on Powerline's suspicions of forgery over the documents put forth regarding George W. Bush?s National Guard service, I decided to do some legwork and track down the opinions of forensic document examiners that may have an expertise in old typefaces.

After contacting several experts, a rather notable Forensic Document Examiner named Dr. Philip Bouffard took the time to examine a pdf of the documents and perform an initial visual analysis of their authenticity. Dr. Bouffard has a PhD in Chemistry from the University of Michigan, but got involved in forensic examination of typefaces after working in ?graphics? with NCR until 1973 and taking a two-year Certification Program in Document Examination at Georgetown University. After completing the program, he became specifically interested in typewriter classification and went to work for a prosecutor?s crime lab in Lake County, Ohio.

Using something called the Haas Atlas, the definitive collection of various typefaces, Mr. Bouffard (and other forensic document examiners) examined the veracity of various documents for over 30 years. Beginning in 1988, Mr. Bouffard hired a programmer to write a computer database program that catalogues the nearly 4,000 typefaces that appear in the Haas Atlas. This computer program is now a forensic standard that is sold as a companion to the Haas Atlas by American Society of Questioned Document Examiners (ASQDE). Though semi-retired, Dr. Bouffard is one of the top two experts in forensic document examination (regarding typefaces) in the country.

UPDATE: The name of the program that Dr. Bouffard developed is called "The Typewriter Typestyle Classification Program" (C:\TYPE).

What did Dr. Bouffard think of the documents?

First, the necessary caveats:

? The pdf document is of poor quality. It seems to have been copied and recopied several times, blurring letter characteristics.

? Also, certain types of analysis can only be done on the original documents, which don?t seem to be available, even to CBS.

So Dr. Bouffard is very clear that his analysis is not 100% positive. That being said ?

?It?s just possible that this might be a Times Roman font, which means that it would have been created on a computer. It?s very possible that someone decided to create this document on a computer... I?ve run across this situation before ? my gut is this could just well be a fabrication.?

The reasons why?

? Right off the bat, Dr. Bouffard noted what others in the blogosphere have been talking about ? something called ?proportional spacing,? which means that each letter does not take up the same amount of width on the page. On old typewriters that do not have proportional spacing, the letter ?i? would be as wide as the letter ?m.? Except for professional typesetting, proportional spacing was only available on a very few models (an IBM model, "Executive" and perhaps one or two other models Mini-Update: Dr. Bouffard e-mails to correct me that it was seven or eight possible models, not one or two - Ed) that were not widely available in 1972-73; the vast majority of typewriters did not have proportional spacing. Because of this, Dr. Bouffard?s computer program immediately eliminated ?over 90%? of the possible fonts from typewriters that could create such a document, narrowing it down to perhaps 15 fonts used by a very few models.

? Next, Dr. Bouffard began entering individual characters in an attempt to match them to the remaining fonts that were available on proportional spacing typewriters of that era, focusing on numbers. Thus far, one character stood out, the number ?4.? In the document provided by CBS News, the number 4 does not "have a foot" and has a ?closed top,? which is indicative of Times New Roman, a font exclusive to more modern computer word processing programs. Other characters matched the old proportional spacing fonts (available on only a small few typewriters of the era), but this number did not (please note that this is only an initial analysis with numerical characters).

Dr. Bouffard ran this number and could not find a match in his entire database of over 4,000 typewriter fonts that have been maintained and collected into his computer database since 1988. Otherwise, the font is very indicative of Times New Roman, the font that is only available on computer word processing programs.

The final word?

Once again, let?s not forget the qualifications: it's a bad copy of a copy and we have no original document for review, but, based on the initial analysis of the documents by an industry expert with over 30 years of experience in typesetting and forensic document examination, the documents ?could just well be a fabrication.?

In light of this information, I think that it would be highly appropriate for CBS News and the Boston Globe to attempt to obtain a copy of the original document for more thorough vetting, and run a correction/addendum to the story.

I still have two other forensic document examiners that are examining the pdf file, and I will update if/when they get back to me. I also plan to ask Dr. Bouffard more detail about the nature of the "th" on the end of dates, though in our first conversation he indicated that some typewriters had the capability to do something in that format.

UPDATE: Dr. Bouffard called me again, and after further analysis, he says that he's pretty certain that it's a fake.

Here's why

...You can read, can't you, Donn?

km gresham
09-10-2004, 07:49 AM
I guess fake documents are better than no documents. Until they're discovered to be fake. :eek: :D

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-10-2004, 08:09 AM
Donn, I do indeed sincerely apologise.

I falsely and scurrilously accused you, a professed bibliophile, of knowing something of the origins of the Times Roman and Times New Roman fonts, and of concealing that knowledge.

This was very wrong of me. You seem to know less than I thought, and it is wrong to mock the afflicted.

I am deeply sorry for any damage that I may have done to your amour-propre.

Ian McColgin
09-10-2004, 08:29 AM
Point being, the network as well as others are attempting to determine if the document is a fake. It's well when people acknowledge corrigibility.

But this document is a side show. Were I the Bush lot, I'd want to dump on the piece he appears to have signed promicing to find a unit in the Boston area.

Remembering always the context: Some guard units and the TANG Champaign Squadron in particular were always quite accomodating to a young man's career plans. Bush is by no means the only priveleged young man who was allowed to work the system as he chose.

Using the Guard as he did is understandable for a young man who, judging from the records, would not even have made it to flight school, much less through it, had he been regular USAF.

What I find reprehensible are the cracks decades later, like "I fought a war and raised two daughters . . " This sort of remark shows his feckless ability to trivialize both national service and family.

km gresham
09-10-2004, 08:35 AM
I am a daughter, and I can attest that raising a daughter is very similar to fighting a war. ;) :D

Alan D. Hyde
09-10-2004, 09:52 AM
:D :D :D

Alan

km gresham
09-10-2004, 09:53 AM
LOL! Here's a suggestion for CBS - Fire your investigators and hire internet bloggers. They spotted in one day what CBS's crack team couldn't see in a couple of weeks. :rolleyes: :D

LeeG
09-10-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by km gresham:
Question. Who had the brilliant idea that forged documents would help Kerry beat Bush? Who was convinced that the deception would never be discovered (it was discovered almost immediately)?

Kerry needs to tell these people to stop "helping" him - NOW! :D Karen,,who had the brilliant idea that using a forged document picked up by Italian intelligence agencies could provide GW with the basis for proving Iraqs "developing WMD programs by attempting to by yellowcake" when the Italian agency said it was bunk and the IAEA said it was bunk in one days perusal and the CIA said it was bunk.

Likewise the employment of David Wurmser and Michael Maloof to re-manufacture intel thereby undermining Tenet and the CIA.

Likewise Richard Perle prostituting Khidir Hamza "proving" Iraqs nuclear programs.

Who had the brilliant idea that invading and occupying a country crippled by 30yrs of Stalinist dictatorship could be done on the cheap with the excuse that "no plan is certain" covers inadequate troop levels to man prisons while prison population increases to compensate for lack of intelligence.

Do you know how much of that 87 Billion has gone to reconstruction? a few billion at last counting. About 60Billion goes to our military,,about 17billion goes to Iraq,,,most of the money is waiting because it's not safe to "nation build".

How long will Cheney depend on your gullibility to think occupying Iraq is the same as fighting terrorism?

As long as it works.

km gresham
09-10-2004, 10:06 AM
:rolleyes:

Garrett Lowell
09-10-2004, 10:31 AM
"I only caught the end of it, but what I did see was explosive."

Yes, it certainly was. "Where's the Kaboom? There's supposed to be an Earth shattering Kaboom!"

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid138/p419838da3768745606c72d73f7828a0a/f71165dc.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid138/p158c6ff4d942374137d842421e0642b7/f71165de.jpg

km gresham
09-10-2004, 10:38 AM
The old media continues to be outclassed and out-reported by the new media. Night, night, Dan. ;)

Kev Smyth
09-10-2004, 11:48 AM
Oh, this is SO funny!! :D :D Now they're saying it was all a dirty trick played by Karl Rove. :D :D Or was it the Kerry campaign? The DNC?

Question- will the embarrassed media now turn against Kerry? tongue.gif :cool:

km gresham
09-10-2004, 11:51 AM
Dan is still INSISTING the docs are real. REAL!
Too too funny! Kitty Kelly coming to the Today show on Monday. Her "source", Sharon Bush, hasn't stayed bought and has already denied she said what Miss Kitty said she said!

I think Today had scheduled her for 3 days. This should be great! :D

km gresham
09-10-2004, 12:11 PM
Oops! Today may be reconsidering. :D

LeeG
09-10-2004, 12:16 PM
does this mean the new media is winning? I think so!

So,,got any good stories about the re-building of Iraq from that 87Billion?...

Meerkat
09-10-2004, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Donn:
http://ratherbiased.com/images/toons/donkey_big.gifDonnkey on donkey! :D :D :D