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Nicholas Carey
12-10-2002, 03:43 PM
Trent Lott had this to say last Saturday night (7 December 2002) at the bash celebrating Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday.


I want to say this about my state: When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either.As the sitting governor of South Carolina, Strom Thurmond ran for president in 1948 on a strict segregationist platform. A tasty nibble from the Thurmond campaign:


All the laws of Washington and all the bayonets of the Army cannot force the Negro into our homes, our schools, our churches..."Thurmond is, and always has been, a notorious bigot and racist, even by the standards of his own time.

It soothes my soul [or something :eek: ] to know that Trent Lott, who appears to share these views, will be running the US Senate come the middle of January next. I cannot possibly think of any spin you could put on Lott's words that would let them be taken any way but as admiration of naked unadorned racism.

As the conservative weblog The Greatest Jeneration (http://www.greatestjeneration.com/) aptly puts it:


For a sitting U.S. Senator to espouse a fondness and a real nostalgia for such a return to rascist oppression, not only reveals the man's values to be little better than an ignorant skinhead's, but reveals him to be so dated and backwards in his thinking that he could be of little use to Americans at the national level.

John Bell
12-10-2002, 03:55 PM
Nah, but he's a big dummy for making such a stupid off the cuff remark.

I do think Lott ought to step down from the Repulican leadership, but not because of this. He needs to step down because he is such a tepid, ineffective, and uninspiring leader.

[ 12-10-2002, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: John Bell ]

Scott Rosen
12-10-2002, 03:57 PM
Given how weak the Democrats are, the only way they can gain ground would be if the Republicans self-destruct.

It's been known to happen.

Alan D. Hyde
12-10-2002, 04:03 PM
I agree with John.

There's another thread here somewhere that touches on this, to which I would allude, but it's eluding me right now...

See the editorial in today's Wall Street Journal. As they note, Thurmond's shown more signs of personal growth than has Lott.

Alan

True Love
12-10-2002, 06:29 PM
"For a sitting U.S. Senator to espouse a fondness and a real nostalgia for such a return to rascist oppression, not only reveals the man's values to be little better than an ignorant skinhead's, but reveals him to be so dated and backwards in his thinking that he could be of little use to Americans at the national level."

--Absolutely correct. Lott should step down. My fellow Republicans in the Senate and House should insist he step down. Period. His remarks are totally inconsistant with the views of the Republican Party and its members. Lott's remarks are demeaning and insulting to both blacks and whites. Absolutely no excuse for them.

Now, if you want to talk about the race-baiting that Jesse Jackson does ad-nauseum, I'm up for that, too.

Chris Coose
12-10-2002, 06:45 PM
This is leadership?
We are screwed.

John Bell
12-10-2002, 06:52 PM
Wasn't it Jesse Jackson who's been the one picking at this particular sore so it's bleeding really good?

Even Daschle gave him a pass until Maxine Waters et. al. got up in a dander.

What happened was a man extamporaneously <sp?> trying to pay a long time colleague a complement at the colleague's 100th birthday party which came out all wrong. Ever try pay your wife a complement and wind up saying something that she interprets as an insult? This is the same thing.

The race warlords who exploit an innocent gaffe for their own personal politcal power ought to be ashamed. I heard one CBC Congressman state on the radio while he had not heard or read Lott's apology, it wasn't enough to satisfy him! How unreasonable is that? The Congressman didn't even know what Lott said in asking for forgiveness!

Gimme a break!

[ 12-10-2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: John Bell ]

imported_Conrad
12-10-2002, 07:19 PM
Oh, Pleeze! I'm with John on this one- open the door, and the opportunists walk through! My understanding is he gets about 25% of the Black vote in his state, pretty good for a Republican, so the record can't be that bad. Still, he's not a very effective leader, and I wouldn't mind seeing him replaced. Don't think this enough to make it happen though.

plimsol
12-11-2002, 04:38 AM
So what is the big deal. Senator White Sheet had a Freudian slip. In a week the spin doctors will have the amnesiac American public diverted on another trumped up external threat. The incident will be forgotten and nothing will change.

Chris Coose
12-11-2002, 06:24 AM
What happened was a man extamporaneously <sp?> trying to pay a long time colleague a complement at the colleague's 100th birthday party which came out all wrong. Ever try pay your wife a complement and wind up saying something that she interprets as an insult? This is the same thing.
Same thing?
I guess I understand why you'd think it no big deal.

tealsmith1
12-11-2002, 07:13 AM
Forget about Lott, I have a bigger problem with Thurmond. The founding fathers intended for a man to lay down his plow, serve his country for a time and then return to the farm to pick up the plow. All we get are career politicians voting themselves raises sucking up pork and being much of the problem. With all due respect, that guy looks way too feeble to be effective.

On the other hand, if the people elected him then they've had their say.

Sorry to change the thread, we now take you back to Trent Lott.

John Bell
12-11-2002, 07:56 AM
Sentator White Sheet: You mean Robert Byrd, right? AFAIK, he's the only current senator who's been a member of the KKK. Oh, I forgot. Byrd's a got a (D) after his name. No problem, then.

No matter anyway. Blood is in the water. The sharks are circling. Lott is doomed.

imported_Conrad
12-11-2002, 12:35 PM
Wednesday Dec. 11, 2002; 11:12 a.m. EST
Byrd Never Apologized for Klan Membership

Critics of Sen. Trent Lott have spent the last 24-hours parsing the words of the series of apologies he has offered for praising Sen. Strom Thurmond's 1948 Dixiecrat presidential candidacy last week. But, satisfactory or not, at least he did apologize, which is more than anyone can say about Senate Majority Whip Robert Byrd's comments regarding his Ku Klux Klan past.

"I apologize to anyone who was offended by my statement," Sen. Lott said, using the "a" word explicitly.

While Byrd did issue an apology last year for invoking the phrase "white niggers" during a nationally televised TV interview, the top Democrat has never expressed much personal contrition for his role as Ku Klux Klan Grand Kleagle in the 1930s.

In fact, as recently as nine years ago, Byrd explained that he joined the group that specialized in lynching African-Americans because it "offered excitement."

Ken Hall
12-11-2002, 01:00 PM
Byrd and Lott are big symptoms of the problem...quite apart from their unfortunate racial views. Me, I say talent is where you find it and I try to take people one at a time. Protected classes are malarkey, and "he that judges by the group is a peawit," as my good friend Buster Kilrain ;) useta say.

I'd like to see some "new" blood at the top of both parties. I'd be willing to give Zell Miller a shot for the Democrats, strictly on reputation, and I recall being favorably impressed by Larry Craig (R-ID) for demeanor, acumen, and thoughtfulness when I had occasion to sit in on a chat about ag with the senator and a couple of his constituents in the summer of '01.

John Bell
12-11-2002, 02:50 PM
As a Georgian, I may be a bit prejudiced about Zell, but I agree he's the type of leader we need. Unfortunately he's not leadership material. He's in his 70's and he's already given some indication he won't run again.

Larry Craig ascending to a major leadership role would probably put every envronmentalist organization into apoplexy!

What the Repulicans need is another Gingrich. Love him or hate him, Gingrich at least understood how to play the game. He tore the first few chapters from the Democratic playbook and very successfully parlayed it into a significant political victory.

Come to think of it, the Dems could use a guy like Gingrich themselves!

Nicholas Carey
12-11-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by John Bell:
What happened was a man extamporaneously <sp?> trying to pay a long time colleague a complement at the colleague's 100th birthday party which came out all wrong. Ever try pay your wife a complement and wind up saying something that she interprets as an insult? This is the same thing.How could you possibly spin what Lott said so that it means anything but the obvious.

Thurmond ran for president in 1948 on a ticket based almost solely on racism; Lott said that it would have been a good thing if Thurmond had one.

What could Lott possibly have meant other than the obvious inference: "A President Thurmond in 1948 would have dealt with the uppity nigrahs properly and that would have been a good thing" ?

Nicholas Carey
12-11-2002, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by John Bell:
Wasn't it Jesse Jackson who's been the one picking at this particular sore so it's bleeding really good?

Even Daschle gave him a pass until Maxine Waters et. al. got up in a dander.That's a problem with the Democratic party's leadership -- no strategic sense. If they had any sense, they'd wouldn't get involved. Just sit quietly on the sidelines and occassionally let someone else stir the pot for a bit.

Then tuck it all in the vest pocket and save it for the next round of elections. When they give you both the tar and the feathers, it seems foolish to give it back or throw it away. Better to save it for later if you don't have an immediate use for it.

John Bell
12-11-2002, 05:00 PM
Nicholas: That's blood you smell. Go get 'em afore the others eat all the tasty bits.

I didn't say that wasn't an idiot, I just said I can understand how gaffes like this happen. I can't and won't defend the statement. But I won't defend the hypersensitivity and feigned outrage of people who are using the incident to increase their political power either. Each is equally disgusting.

I do agree he needs to be removed from the party leadership. Before I said he should not be removed for this incident, but I'm beginning to think that the Republicans would actually do better to move him out because of this. He can keep his Senate seat, though. The voters of Mississippi can take care him if they want to in due time. But it's their decision, not Jesse Jackson or the Congressional Black Caucus'.

(Am I the only who wonders why the CBC hasn't changed their name to the Congressional African-American Caucus?)

[ 12-11-2002, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: John Bell ]

ishmael
12-11-2002, 05:03 PM
How could you possibly spin what Lott said so that it means anything but the obvious.

Thurmond ran for president in 1948 on a ticket based almost solely on racism; Lott said that it would have been a good thing if Thurmond had one.

What could Lott possibly have meant other than the obvious inference: "A President Thurmond in 1948 would have dealt with the uppity nigrahs properly and that would have been a good thing" ? Oh I dunno Nicholas. It seems to me people are always ready to fall into such simple explainations. I'm not defending Mr. Lott's foot in mouth, but I suspect we need to look at more than "keeping the nigrahs" down to explain it.

Have you looked at the Dixiecrat platform from 48'? I haven't, but I'll wager it has much to do with many things other than race relations. They weren't out just to keep the "nigrah" down, they still believed the Federal Government had no Constitutional right to tell them how to run their lives.

Up until the modern era of prosperity in the South most Southern politicians were re-fighting the Civil War. Strom Thurmond -- racist and confederate, no doubt, in his earlier years; desiring that thing Faulkner talked about: that third day at Gettysburg to turn differently -- is the end of an era. His birthday party, 100!, is a cause for off hand remarks. That Lott made the remark that he did, at a public gathering, means he's stupid, not racist.

I've never liked the feel of the man, he feels like a lousy 7th grade civics teacher. I hope, for the sake of the country, that he is pushed aside. But not because of this faux pas.

Let's not fall easy victim to those mind reading what he intended by his remarks. I suspect there isn't that much there to read.

Jack

Memphis Mike
12-11-2002, 05:30 PM
Nothing like a southern gentleman's
brand of "subtle racism" huh?

I wish some of you had the opportunity
to meet some of the "folks" I have met.

They're truly pathetic individuals.
These are people that voted for Trent
Lott BTW.

Nicholas Carey
12-11-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by ishmael:
[Up until the modern era of prosperity in the South most Southern politicians were re-fighting the Civil War.You haven't been to the deep south recently. They're still fighting the [Civil] War [Between the States]. At its heart, what do you think the ongoing fracas WRT the Confederate Battle Flag as a symbol of state government is about?

I'll grant them that the postwar 'Reconstruction' was a tad on the harsh side (mild understatement, that). But the irony there is that the harshness of Reconstruction was largely self-inflicted: the confederate sympathizers that whacked Lincoln pretty much ensured that.

Lincoln wanted reconstruction to be about healing rather than punishment. His successor had rather different views on the matter.

ishmael
12-11-2002, 06:43 PM
You haven't been to the deep south recently. They're still fighting the [Civil] War [Between the States]. At its heart, what do you think the ongoing fracas WRT the Confederate Battle Flag as a symbol of state government is about? Actually Nicholas, I spent a fair amount of time travelling and camping in the Charleston SC area, just a couple years back. I found the interaction between blacks and whites to be more open and honest than say in Boston.

My girlfriend and I, for example, found ourselves lost in a lower-middle class neighborhood of Charleston one day. Mostly black. The dog needed a stretch, and there was a school yard so...

Before you could shake Brer Rabbit's tail, we were surrounded by kids. They all wanted to toss the ball for Sheba the dog, and were full of questions and goofin' for us.

Frankly, I don't think that would have happened in Boston.

I'm not saying there isn't racism, both black and white, everywhere in this country. But I've never felt it in Southern cities like I have in parts of Cleveland and Boston. Anecdotal, to be sure.

Don't know what it means, but there it is.

[ 12-11-2002, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Memphis Mike
12-11-2002, 06:49 PM
Posted by Nick:

"Lincoln wanted reconstruction to be about healing rather than punishment. His successor had rather different views on the matter."

And those views are still alive and well
in the South I'm sad to say.

Donn, check your map. I'm a few short miles
from the Mississippi border. I go to
Mississippi on a daily basis and have had
the unfortunate opportunity to meet the
the state's worst. I've also met some good
folks there also and this is by no means
meant to stereotype anyone.

rodcross
12-11-2002, 07:37 PM
Jack,

You had a good experience in Charleston. Go two miles west, one mile west in some cases. Things change in a hurry.

Don't forget that northerners don't have a monopoly on intelligence. Use your brain to perpetuate segregation and you can perform wonders.

I'm not saying its right, but I'm not saying it isn't done.

As for Trent Lott and his comments on the Senator's retirement: This is a classic example of an 'out of context' quote. Trent Lott doesn't get my vote, thankfully. All he was doing was giving the kiss-off to a politician who was in the fray most of his life and represented his constituants exactly as they would have liked him to do so. You can't say that about a lot of politicians.

ishmael
12-11-2002, 07:45 PM
Rod,

No, that's my point. We were camping for a week, shopping the small grocery stores, doing our laundry etc.

Again, I'm not saying I didn't sense racism, but I also found folks mixing in a way that seemed natural and free of tension, and different than I experienced growing up in Cleveland. I dunno the answer, just my experience. It was genuinely different. 'Course, so was the time.

Jack

Nicholas Carey
12-11-2002, 08:32 PM
Ishmael said:
Let's not fall easy victim to those mind reading what he intended by his remarks. I suspect there isn't that much there to read.
Loon said:
In reality, he may be a bigot, but he isn't a racist.Umm...Bullpuckey.

Lott hangs with racists. He was a member of the openly racist Council of Conservative Citizens (http://www.cofcc.org/) (the direct descendent of the deep south's infamous "White Citizens' Councils" formed in the aftermath of Brown v. BofE) until his membership was revealed in 1998. According to the editor of the racist rag American Renaissance (http://www.amren.com/),


The Council of Conservative Citizens is the only organization I know of that does effective political work for the European-American (emph. mine) majority.A tasty morsel from their progaganda:


No one can deny the importance of the question of miscegenation or race-mixing. Its very essence involves the preservation of the white race as well as the Negro race. It is a matter of racial survival. Compared with the future interest we have at stake in this issue, all other matters fade into insignificance...Western civilization, with all its might and glory, would never have achieved its greatness without the directing hand of God and the creative genius of the white race. Any effort to destroy the race by a mixture of black blood is an effort to destroy Western civilization itself. To deny this is to deny all history.For more information, read the Anti-Defamation League profile on the CCC: http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/CCCitizens.asp?xpicked=3&item=12

In 1992, Trent Lott said the following in a speech to CCC members in Greenwood, Mississippi:


The people in this room stand for the right principles and the right philosophy. Let's take it in the right direction, and our children will be the beneficiaries.I don't think so.

And FWIW, according to the Jackson (Mississippi) Clarion-Ledger, Lott made the same remark regarding Strom Thurmond's 1948 presential run, virtually word-for-word, some 22 years ago at a campaign rally for Ronald Reagan, speaking immediately after Strom Thurmond. You can read the 22-year old article at http://www.clarionledger.com/news/0212/11/mlott.html

His views are well thought out. He just slipped up and let them out.

DIXIECRAT PLATFORM


Loon said:
When he said the words, he wasn't thinking about the segregation plank in the Dixiecrat's hull...he was thinking about what a staunch conservative Strom has been on other things, like defense and law enforcement.The Dixiecrat platform was a straight anti-civil rights platform. The phrase "States' Rights" has been for the last 40 years at least, and is now, nothing but a thinly veiled code word for opposition to civil rights legislation. [and yes, I am aware that there's something to the constitutional argument in favor of states' rights -- but unfortunately, in the same way that the perfectly good adjective 'gay' has been co-opted so that it's true meaning can never be used; so too has the phrase "States' Rights" been co-opted by the kukluxers. From the Dixiecrat platform plank regarding their opposition to the outlawing of the poll tax:


The negro is a native of tropical climate where fruits and nuts are plentiful and where clothing is not required for protection against the weather...The essentials of society in the jungle are few and do not include the production, transportation and marketing of goods. [Thus] his racial constitution has been fashioned to exclude any idea of voluntary cooperation on his part.The 1948 Democratic Party voter's guide and sample ballot for the Presidential Election is at http://mshistory.k12.ms.us/features/feature7/ms_demo_ballot.html. The key bit:


REMEMBER

A vote for Truman electors is a direct order to our Congressmen and Senators from Mississippi to vote for passage of Truman's so-called civil-rights program in the next Congress. This means the vicious FEPC -- anti-poll tax -- anti-lynching and anti-segregation proposals will become the law of the land and our way of life in the South will be over forever.

If you FAIL to VOTE you are in fact casting a vote for Truman and his vicious anti-Southern program.

[ 12-11-2002, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

Nicholas Carey
12-11-2002, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by ishmael:
I spent a fair amount of time travelling and camping in the Charleston SC area, just a couple years back. I found the interaction between blacks and whites to be more open and honest than say in Boston.
.
.
.
I'm not saying there isn't racism, both black and white, everywhere in this country. But I've never felt it in Southern cities like I have in parts of Cleveland and Boston. Anecdotal, to be sure.[/QB]I didn't say that people with different skin color didn't get along. They do. They've had a lot of practice at it.

So long as everybody knows their place and keeps it, everybody gets along. The racism is there, it's just more subtle.

Case in point...Atlanta's MARTA (commuter rail).

For years, people Norcross and Gwinnet County -- northern suburbs of Atlanta -- fought tooth and nail to prevent MARTA from extending its lines northward.

The ostensible reason for opposing it was that 'criminals' would ride MARTA northward and bring crime into the suburbs. The real reason: Atlanta's northern suburbs are largely white; Atlanta proper is largely non-white. With cheap mass transit running between city and 'burb, then...omigod! Black people could come and live in the suburbs!

How do I know this? My parents live in Atlanta. I spent more than a year working there.

That's the mindset there.

Memphis Mike
12-11-2002, 08:59 PM
Jack, I grew up in WV as you know. I had
friends of all colors there.

I never experienced racism until I moved
to the South. Sure, it existed in WV but
not on a grand scale as it does here.

In order to tell you a little about the
situation here, I have to tell you a little
about myself.

I came to Memphis on a Greyhound Bus. Nothing
but a suitcase and 400 dollars in my pocket.
Having nothing to go back to in WV, I planned to
stay maybe a couple of weeks and then move on.
I've got family here that helped me.

I didn't have a car at first and had to ride the
bus to work. I never will forget the looks
I recieved on the bus from the Blacks and
wondered why they were looking at me that way.

I completely understand now, after living here
for 16 years. Sure, it was a look of hatred,
but they have a reason to. And it's a shame
that it still exists but it does.

Things have improved since then but discrimination
still exists here. Only it comes in a more
subtle form.

Remember, this is where Dr. Martin Luther King
was assasinated.

I'm sad to say, but in order to edjucate you,
there are people here in this part of the
country, that still carry out midnight
raids. I know that for a fact.

[ 12-11-2002, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Memphis Mike ]

John Bell
12-11-2002, 10:53 PM
I got news for you Nicholas, blacks are moving to the 'burbs. And so are Hispanics. My neighborhood, here in formerly lily-white Cobb County (a northern Atlanta suburb) is integrating. And there is no strife.

My own experiences tend to mirror Jack's anecdote from Charleston.

When I first launched my boat last year, these two guys came up to chat me up about it.

http://www.mindspring.com/~jmbell/AF4_Launch/MVC-035S.JPG

That wouldn't have happened 30 years ago.

Nicholas Carey
12-12-2002, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by John Bell:
I got news for you Nicholas, blacks are moving to the 'burbs. And so are Hispanics. My neighborhood, here in formerly lily-white Cobb County (a northern Atlanta suburb) is integrating. And there is no strife.Yup. And MARTA finally extended the line into Gwinnett County, I believe. But it's been a decade-long fight to do it.

ishmael
12-12-2002, 01:42 AM
Nicholas, Mike et al,

You likely know more about southern pols than this Cleveland boy. And I hope all bigots get over it.

And I hope the formerly oppressed do too.

This is an amazing country, that we can even speak the names of these devils.

"We shall overcome..."

[ 12-12-2002, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Ken Hall
12-12-2002, 08:20 AM
Ford shoulda got Pelosi's job....

[ 12-12-2002, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hall ]

On Vacation
12-12-2002, 08:20 AM
Thanks John. The continued festhering of the scab is being done in large by black so called "leaders". Try going on the water in large areas of runabouts. Notice who is becoming successful enough to sign on the dotted line for the Searays, Sea Pros and many other plastic boats.

And to say blacks are still living with a cloud of fear over their head,try explaining this, folks. One fellow named his boat "Load of Coal" .
I saw another one that said "R-rer Boat"

Many of you should just quit joining the ranks of John Conyers, Maxine Waters, Johnny Cochran, Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton. QUIT using the race card . Try a new line for the 21st century.

And yes, this is in the racist South, where lives us ignorant white boys wearing white outfits , carrying crosses and meeting behind closed doors in moonshining camps planning our next church bunring Memphis Mike, and Nicholas Carey. We shall overcome. Yes we will overcome the ignorance of the likes of you people. :eek:

[ 12-12-2002, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

Roger Stouff
12-12-2002, 08:57 AM
The continued festhering of the scab is being done in large by black so called "leaders". Oyster's exactly right. Being a resident of the deep South, I can personally attest that racial tension springs from boths sides where I live. Even in this small, rural area, the local leaders of the NAACP and such fan the fires of discontent. The upper clique of wealthy whites live in a self-imposed segregation culturally, economically and spiritually.

There is such hatred among much of the Black community towards whites, and much more towards Indians, I'm afraid. For the most part, white people here just seem mystified by it. Some lash out at the "welfare recipients", that they're lazy and don't want to work. There are areas of this small town of 9,000 that a white boy wouldn't want to get caught in. There are areas a black man wouldn't want to get caught in.

Through it all, there's the "leaders" stirring the pot. There can't be any harmony until that stops, on both sides.

The black community here generally dislikes Indians because they seem to feel we are getting things they don't, and that they're more entitled to it. I was actually confronted by someone who said this to me. My reply was that as horrible as kidnapping, slavery, rape and murder were, concentrated genocide was no better. I was told that if we had all been killed off, black people would have been better off.

This town actually has a railroad track dividing it, and the black community literally is across the tracks, as a gross generalization. We have one black man out of five on the city council. One is half-black. The most respected physician in town is black, and will likely be our current mayor's chosen successor (he's white.) Yet, as soon as such individuals break through the barriers of bigotry, the black community largely regards them as turncoats, and the white community large accepts them as equals. I think this is because the so-called black community rabble-rousers are planting these ideas, to keep themselves in a position of influence. In essence, said leaders are purposefully keeping their people down.

Our police chief here in town is a woman, the first female chief of police in Louisiana. She's tough, professional and fair. She has fallen under incredible fire from both sides of the community because she once had a relationship with a black man. I think that clearly illustrates that the division is so huge here, there may never be a solution.

Chris Coose
12-12-2002, 10:00 AM
Well done Roger.
Lots of honest language there making reference to our problems and differences and not likely a single word or phrase to inspire anger/rage.

You'd think we might expect from a career politician who is the Senate leader.

Memphis Mike
12-12-2002, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by LOON:
MM...the Congressman I mentioned yesterday, with the great line..."Lott should step down, but the Democrats hope he doesn't.." is on Imus this morning...and he's your congressman...Harold Ford. Pretty impressive for a politician.Good morning Donn. smile.gif Yep, Harold Ford Jr.
is a bright young man. He's done a lot for
his community and gets my vote consistantly.
Other politicians should use him as a role
model.

John of Phoenix
12-12-2002, 10:21 AM
What is it about we humans that we are so compelled to choose up sides and hate? It must be some primeval force, coded deep in our genes that forces us to do it, because it doesnít make any sense from a logical standpoint. Itís wholly counter productive - a futile waste of time and energy, but weíre helpless to stop it. If itís not race, itís religion or [your choice here]. Some religions teach that when you die, all knowledge is revealed to you. I hope thatís so. This one really troubles me.

Jim H
12-12-2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Nicholas Carey:
You haven't been to the deep south recently. They're still fighting the [Civil] War [Between the States].[/QB]Gee, I always thought Washington was in the Pacific Northwest, oh well what do you expect from some backwards redneck? I probably believe that Texas is in the South!

Nicholas Carey
12-12-2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by JimHillman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nicholas Carey:
You haven't been to the deep south recently. They're [b]still fighting the [Civil] War .Gee, I always thought Washington was in the Pacific Northwest, oh well what do you expect from some backwards redneck? I probably believe that Texas is in the South![/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Umm...what does where I live have to do with the issue at hand? I've spent no small amount of time in the deep south. My parents live there.

Meerkat
12-14-2002, 03:54 AM
I suppose I'll catch hell for this...

I live in an integrated neighborhood in Seattle. It's mostly black and some whites (with more whites and affluent blacks moving in as Seattle continues to be gentrified (code for pricing poor people out of the city). There are a lot of African-Americans and a not inconsiderable number of Africans: mostly Ethiopians and Somalis (who seem to get along together just fine AFAICT in spite of the fact that their two countries are generally at odds). I've noticed something about the two groups: African-Americans tend to be edgy and confrontive (more "in your face"), while the African immigrants just act like you're any random person they ran into on the street: relaxed, open and generally friendy (and they don't panhandle!). IOTW, the Africans seem far more "color blind" then the African-Americans.

Guess which group I'd rather be around. Guess which group tends to own more of the successful small businesses in the area or are clerks at the brand-name gas stations? Guess which group has male members that show up in arabic dress or other outlandish costume? (although, I have nothing at all against this practice!) I'll give you a clue: only the last mentioned are African-Americans.

I'll be blunt: there might have been a time when affirmative action and other special programs helped black people in this country, but I think that time is long past. These days it's making them think, as a group, that they're due some sort of special consideration because they're somehow less then the (ok, white - so what!) majority and it's these very programs that ingrain the idea that they are somehow less. Get over it, and get on with life and go out and compete. Immigrant Africans don't seem to have the problems the homeboys do.

[ 12-14-2002, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

Cap'n R an R
12-14-2002, 08:50 AM
This is a biggoted statement to end all biggoted statements.....

"I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two,which in my judgement,will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality; and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary" Abraham Lincoln in his response to Senator Stephen Douglas in an 1858 debate in Ottawa, Illinois.

This man has a monument to his life and achievements.....ah yes, the Republicans are the party of Lincoln...but werent the Democrats the party of slave owners???

D
12-14-2002, 09:46 AM
Meerkat, you hit the nail on the head. The days of the white male majority are long gone. Affirmative action is an outdated concept that fuels the fires of racism by pointing out that one group should be given "special" consideration. I do appreciate that there have not been many "instructional comments on how we southerners should live with the black man." I hope none of you take this the wrong way but there is a difference within the African-American race (just as there is a difference in all races). There are those that are ambitious and have good attitudes and then there are those that are not ambitious and think that the south still "owes" them for what happened to their ancestors generations ago. I travel all over the country and I see many cultural dynamics and one of the things that I have noticed to a great degree is the segregation that is evident in the north east part of the country. I gotta tell ya, this degree of separation could never exist in the south today. Today we have Carl Sharpton and Jessie Jackson to fuel the fires of racism giving them their platform to spew whatever rhetoric is popular at the moment. Peace is a wonderful concept but as long as there are cultural differences there will always be a "separation."
I should comment that I do have African-American friends and think of them at least as highly as I do my friends of my own race. I think what fuels the fires in the south is the "you owe me" philosophy of a large portion of the African-American race. Southerners "see" this population I am referring to live off welfare and food stamps and continue to live a hedonistic (what will satisfy my desires right now at this very minute and I don't care what the consequences are because I have nothing to live for anyway mindset) life and continuing to tell us that we owe them more. It is difficult. There is a group of African-American lawyers that are planning on suing companies like American Express and Wells Fargo because they exploited slaves generations ago. Let's stoke the fire some more......

D
12-14-2002, 10:12 AM
Maybe that should have been "AL" Sharpton. I can't remember.

ishmael
12-16-2002, 12:55 PM
A different view, through the lens of that political mercenary Dick Morris, but interesting nonetheless.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/64742.htm

Allen Foote
12-16-2002, 01:21 PM
Typical politics by Dems. Playing the race card like Johnny Cochrane. What else is new "YAWN". If Lott backs down because of make believe pressure then shame on him.....but of course, every other in office Republican will say how inappropriate segregation is.....wouldn't want to alienate black democrats. :D