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Ian McColgin
08-25-2003, 01:51 PM
Turns out that after the terror attacks on September 11, the EPA re-wrote its air quality reports to fit an adgenda.

Check out:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/nyc-epa0823,0,3199733.story

Breath deeply.

Meerkat
08-25-2003, 02:23 PM
Shrubs don't need air as clean as real humans; besides, he wanted to folier feed when visiting the big apple :D

John of Phoenix
08-25-2003, 03:41 PM
Did you see the poll for that story?

"How Do You Feel About News That The Bush Administration Pressured The EPA To Declare The Air Around Ground Zero Was Safe?

87.2%
I'm outraged. (1916 responses)

5.9%
I'm angry. (129 responses)

2.2%
I'm annoyed. (48 responses)

1.3%
I'm indifferent. (28 responses)

3.5%
I don't believe the news. (76 responses)

2197 total responses"

High C
08-25-2003, 04:01 PM
It was a plot to give lung cancer to Democrats. :rolleyes:

Maybe they should've told everyone not to breathe. Yeah, that's the ticket. tongue.gif :D

Chris Coose
08-25-2003, 04:02 PM
Based on the dubbya's compelling neo-environmental sciences, I'd have liked to answer in the "I'm not at all surprised".

Adding insult to injury. Such a bunch of morons.
The dubbya really does bank on this idea that we just can't stand the truth.
That must mean we are stupider than him and his crew.
We deserve what we get.

NormMessinger
08-25-2003, 04:06 PM
Thanks JT. I was wondering how "you guys" would justify this. Works in other situations to, doesn't it.

High C
08-25-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Thanks JT. I was wondering how "you guys" would justify this. Works in other situations to, doesn't it.Well good grief. "You guys" see a dark conspiracy behind every corner. Maybe it was simply an effort to avert panic and comfort a very rattled population. Or maybe it was an effort to murder New Yorkers missed by Al Queda.

What other possibilities do you see?

Alan D. Hyde
08-25-2003, 04:27 PM
Well, George W. Bush walked around on and near that pile of steaming rubble for quite a while without any special respiratory protection, so at least he put his mouth where his money was (so to speak :D ).

Alan

Meerkat
08-25-2003, 05:15 PM
And it's a very good thing the Shrubya kept moving too - he wouldn't have been noticed as just another steaming pile :D

thechemist
08-25-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
Turns out that after the terror attacks on September 11, the EPA re-wrote its air quality reports to fit an adgenda.

Check out:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/nyc-epa0823,0,3199733.story

Breath deeply.Well, as Alan points out, the President DID breathe deeply, so maybe this whole business about how polluted the air was supposed to be was not quite true and should have been toned down.

Remember, it is one thing to be breathing the dust and smoke of a ground-up building and contents, living and otherwise; it is quite another thing to be breathing the air around Ground Zero a day later, when the smoke/dust plume has drifted away.

Two possibilities:

First, it was not that hazardous in the first place and the report deserved to be toned down.

Second, it was hazardous, maybe as hazardous as the cigarette smoke one American in four inhales daily. In that case it seems to me we have a President with enough courage to stand there and breathe that air and tell us it's not as bad as The Media would have us believe.

Remember the Media? The Merchants of Fear?

I don't think too highly of some of the "Media-types" in the EPA, either. The things they decree Industry does that are terribly awful and must be micromanaged at great and ridiculous expense are beyond any sane measure of science. If they could get ahold of whomever was responsible for rain they would fine and jail that perpetrator, for rain contains enough pollution to violate the Federal Clean Water Act.

Lemme tell you about lead. Canned Fruit Cocktail, canned pineapple, canned tomato products, they are all acidic. There is a natural amount of lead , a part per million or so, in tin. All tin. You can't find tin without lead and the traces of lead cannot be refined out of tin by any practical means.

The tin-plated cans that contain the aforementioned food products will and do, inevitably, have enough lead leached out that the level of lead in those food products you all have been eating all your lives, that level of lead exceeds fifty parts per billion, which you gotta know will kill you just after it makes your schmeckel turn green and fall off.

Do you think all the government food-cops do anything about this imminent threat to your survival? Nope. Why? Because it is pointless to terrorize a population about something that isn't that bad in the first place and about which nothing can be done.

Nothing is perfectly safe, anyhow.

It's just another road-hazard here in America, so step on the gas, drive around it and get on down the road.

Meerkat
08-25-2003, 06:59 PM
Hmmm chemist... by your logic, there is an acceptable level of strychnine in potable water and so the Bush administration's roll back of previous administration's rules is a good thing?
Similarly the EPA's ban on wood that's been pressure treated with strychnine and/or arsenic as a preservative is a bad thing, even if the strychnine leeches into the ground water supply? Taking your idea to it's illogical conclusion, DDT and PCB's should be allowed since their benefits outweighs any preceived risk.

As for rain, much of the pollution comes from smokestack industries that are either gone or vastly reduced. The EPA does go after smokestack industries that are heavy polluters - unless the administration is helping their friends.

BTW, just how does a degree in Chemistry qualify you as an expert on the environment? Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.

stan v
08-25-2003, 07:42 PM
TROLL ALERT

On Vacation
08-25-2003, 08:02 PM
:D

I think far less were worried about the air, and more concerned about survivors. Shock was the order of the day and the week after the incident. I feel sure there was an increase of foreign matter, we don't breathe everyday. Hinesight is 20/20 on all matters of research and investigations.

[ 08-25-2003, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

High C
08-25-2003, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Meerkat:
Hmmm chemist... by your logic, there is an acceptable level of strychnine in potable water. Everything is toxic. Everything is safe. It's a matter of dosage, and perspective.

stan v
08-25-2003, 08:43 PM
That's why I prefer flea collars to flea and tick dust. Collars are not as toxic and all you've got to worry about are the little bast*rds choking to death. Anyone want to pitch in for a rodent collar? ;)

Mrleft8
08-25-2003, 09:47 PM
The fact that Dubya was there breathing that toxic dust could explain why no oxygen has gotten to his brain ever since....

imported_Snatchblock
08-25-2003, 09:58 PM
Just another lie from lying politicians. What I fail to understand is why any one would defend this sort of crap? Tell me chemist and oyster and High C.... what makes it ok to lie to the public and jeopardize their health?

High C
08-25-2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Snatchblock28:
Tell me chemist and oyster and High C.... what makes it ok to lie to the public and jeopardize their health?I suppose you would've evacuated Manhattan because you couldn't demonstrate that the air quality was up to snuff right after a major terrorist attack? There were greater concerns, if you recall. :rolleyes:

Art Read
08-26-2003, 06:44 AM
Oh, puleeeze! Did anybody actually READ that?

"I think most scientists said, 'Based on the information we have, we don't see problems. But we don't know everything yet."

And how about that last quote regarding the future rebuilding at the site: "There's gonna be dust and diesel smoke from all the equipment down there working..." Dust and smoke? In New York City? HORRORS! Just what WOULD these people do. Evacuate the city, seal it under a stone and concrete rubble heap like Chernoble? What world do these people live in?

You all better just hope these folk don't start "sniffing around" your own boatshops next time you sweep the floor! :rolleyes:

[ 08-26-2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

stan v
08-26-2003, 07:05 AM
Art :D

It's all they have. That, and Dean. :D :D :D

imported_Snatchblock
08-26-2003, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by High C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Snatchblock28:
Tell me chemist and oyster and High C.... what makes it ok to lie to the public and jeopardize their health?I suppose you would've evacuated Manhattan because you couldn't demonstrate that the air quality was up to snuff right after a major terrorist attack? There were greater concerns, if you recall. :rolleyes: </font>[/QUOTE]How bout this?

Telling the Truth?

Telling people- you know we really don't know the answer, but if you are elderly, or asthmatic or have other breathing problems it may be best to stay inside or go somewhere else for a while till we do know. Instead we got lies and who knows how many people will sufffer long term damage because of it or may have already succumbed? Remember the soviets telling the world not to worry when Chernobyl blew up?

Bush coming onto the boob tube and telling us to go to work , go on with your plans, Go Shopping because the economy needs us. It made me sick and still does. If there has ever been a rallying time in our cuntries history that was not taken advantage of this was it.

imported_Snatchblock
08-26-2003, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by stan v:
Art :D

It's all they have. That, and Dean. :D :D :D I guess that lead and asbestos dust really haven't been found to be harmful to your health?
:confused:

High C
08-26-2003, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by Snatchblock28:
Bush coming onto the boob tube and telling us to go to work , go on with your plans, Go Shopping because the economy needs us. It made me sick and still does...Yep, sick.

imported_Snatchblock
08-26-2003, 07:42 AM
How bout what I asked lo c? What bout the truth?

Chris Coose
08-26-2003, 07:45 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by stan v:
Art

It's all they have. That, and Dean.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you haven't noticed, we've got the dubbya too.
In the past few weeks he has definately come over to our side to help with the next election.

Go buy some gasoline, or some stocks, go find a job. Today he is to leave the ranch/vacation to speak to the American Legion about how good things are going. The choir loves him but there are some others who wonder about fundamental things, like, why he hasn't asked Congress for the 4 billion/ month it takes to occupy Iraq.

Little things like that.

[ 08-26-2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Chris Coose ]

stan v
08-26-2003, 07:49 AM
This next election should be confusing to the left. What with an OIL barron VS A HIGHLY PAID MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL. Gee, I wonder which one the left will go with? HEHE

In anticipating your answer, remember the less of two evils is how we work with dictators. tongue.gif

High C
08-26-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Snatchblock28:
How bout what I asked lo c? What bout the truth?OK, Snatch, read the first paragraph of the article again, and see if it makes sense to you. Read it slowly, perhaps out loud...

"In the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attack on the World Trade Center, the White House instructed the Environmental Protection Agency to give the public misleading information, telling New Yorkers it was safe to breathe when reliable information on air quality was not available."

Picture the aftermath of 9/11. Do you remember that? Remember what it was like, what was going through everyone's minds? Now picture the President of the United States coming on television, perhaps from the safety of a top- secret bunker, wearing an oxygen mask, and announcing that he doesn't know if the air in Manhattan is safe to breathe. Maybe they should breathe, maybe they shouldn't. Armed with the truth, that no information on air quality was available, individual New Yorkers would be properly informed to make this crucial decision. Yeah, that's what should've happened.

This is perhaps the most stupid complaint yet from the Bush hater crowd, all 17 of you.

Chris Coose
08-26-2003, 08:02 AM
It surely is evil Stan.

When gazing into your crystal ball can you see that if the democrats ran a dog catcher their chances get better with each passing day?

stan v
08-26-2003, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Chris Coose:
It surely is evil Stan.

When gazing into your crystal ball can you see that if the democrats ran a dog catcher their chances get better with each passing day?Surefire winner for the demorat nomination.

Chris Coose
08-26-2003, 08:06 AM
And likely to prevail at this rate.

imported_Snatchblock
08-26-2003, 09:31 AM
Lo c -

I don't believe the report being talked about came out on 9/11 now did it?

Maybe YOU should take a reading comprehesion class or be tested for dementia.

imported_Snatchblock
08-26-2003, 11:33 AM
on second thought lying to the pulic about their safety is a great idea.
I can see it now.......

My fellow Americans, a nucular plant has just been hit by an American airlines 757 by a grou7p of terrorists. But don't worry- the NR
c and the EpA insure me and you that all is ok- the radioactive plume is well within limits.....

Having been caught in one lie of THIS type it doesnt matter anymore whether or not the radiation is contained. Mass panic and hysteria will ensue. Are YOU going to believe him and leave your family in harms way?

LeeG
08-26-2003, 11:48 AM
snatch28, it's for national security, badges please.

Art Read
08-26-2003, 11:56 AM
"I think most scientists said, 'Based on the information we have, we don't see problems. But we don't know everything yet."

What part of that don't you understand?

A big building fell down in a heap. Two of 'em actually. They had some bad stuff in 'em and some of it got in the air. Probably not a good idea to breath it in deep, just to see if it gives you a "buzz" if you know what I mean, but what exactly is the administrations "crime" here? That they didn't "announce" that there's bad stuff in the air where those buildings just collapsed? DUH! Did you REALLY need to be told that?

Now... Given a bad situation, people wondering, "Are we gonna start dropping dead just from being in the area?" "Did the terrorists bring some nasty bugs onto those planes maybe?" "Are there "poison fumes" lingering?", how would YOU instruct the voice of authority to speak? "We don't 'think' anything's wrong with the air, but we don't know with 100% certainty, so we won't say anything", or "We've tested the air, boy it's dusty, but it really ain't likely to kill you. Wear dust masks and get on with your lives."? As I recall, etcept for those killed in the immediate aftermath of the actions taken by the animals who attacked us, people did NOT start dropping like flies just from being in the area. Perhaps the government was right?

Somebody is really grasping at straws here. Smells like desperation.

[ 08-26-2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

Chris Coose
08-26-2003, 12:35 PM
Smells like the ass end of a bull.
Lies, lies and more lies.

Alan D. Hyde
08-26-2003, 01:13 PM
Yeah, it does.

When will Kerry and Dean zip their lips?

Enough is plenty.

Alan

Meerkat
08-26-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Donn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />BTW, just how does a degree in Chemistry qualify you as an expert on the environment? Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.
And how does a career dotted with failed businesses and unemployment qualify you as an expert in anything?</font>[/QUOTE]And how does being an idiot qualify you for being stupid? Must be all that "producing income" from the efforts of others!

On Vacation
08-26-2003, 02:10 PM
"And how does being an idiot qualify you for being stupid? Must be all that "producing income" from the efforts of others!"

Sounds like, to me, those guildlines, described by you, fit with many of the programs, designed to produce income for the unemployed, too . tongue.gif Now back to your regularly scheduled program of trashing Bush.

Meerkat
08-26-2003, 02:13 PM
More unintelligable Oyster gibberish.

On Vacation
08-26-2003, 02:36 PM
Thats right, Meerkat. Its hard for many folks, that receive assistance, many in the form of benefits of unemployment, free healthcare, in the form of Medicare and Medicaid, foodstamps, and etc. to understand that it takes effort by others, producing income, to pay for these programs.

This is an interesting topic, here. I remember Peter Jennings commenting, after a few hours, that the president should speak to the nation, to calm the fears of the people. With the nation in trama, do we take a geiger counter in the city of New York, or attempt to evacuate the multitude, with mass histeria? How many more would have been killed in speeding trains, taxicabs, bicycles, and automobiles?

Yep, this nation is a pretty bad place to be. :rolleyes: I feel the pain for many of you folks. The sun is out, and I am getting ready for a trip to Columbia, South America. ;) Try going outside, and smelling your air. It is great up in northwestern part of the country. You are not even close to New York.

But with further thought, the air currents, in your area, will only allow for the radiation from Siberia, Russia and parts in the old block of the Soviet Union, to carry the air of leaking reactors and the nuclear ballistic missle parts to your area. ;) I wonder if there has been a warning from the EPA on that? Be careful, whatever you do today, about being exposed to the sunlight, and the open air.

[ 08-26-2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

High C
08-26-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Meerkat:
More unintelligable Oyster gibberish.And what would you call this gem?
"And how does being an idiot qualify you for being stupid?"
:D

Jim H
08-26-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
Turns out that after the terror attacks on September 11, the EPA re-wrote its air quality reports to fit an adgenda.
Breath deeply.So Ian, what would you have done?

imported_Snatchblock
08-26-2003, 03:31 PM
Dont know what Ian would have done but the government should have told us the truth- not a pack of lies.

Alan D. Hyde
08-26-2003, 03:37 PM
One reason we small government advocates take that position (other than the Tenth Amendment) is that this sort of thing is inevitable in a large bureaucracy, irrespective of who's running it.

Read Max Weber and Emile Durkheim.

This is hardly a bright and shiny new revelation.

Alan

Maguire
08-26-2003, 03:42 PM
""In the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attack on the World Trade Center, the White House instructed the Environmental Protection Agency to give the public misleading information, telling New Yorkers it was safe to breathe when reliable information on air quality was not available."

Wow . . . that's some sentence. What info was misleading? It was safe to breath.

In reading the entire article, it seems that the white house changed the language from "the glass is half empty" to "the glass is half full," and now the news media is trying to turn it back the other way.

The author of any report or news story can choose many diofferent ways to offer the same information. The White House has authority over the EPA. For them to insist that the language relay the facts in the way and in the wording they wanted should not be shocking to anyone -- nor should it be labeled "a lie."

Alan D. Hyde
08-26-2003, 03:54 PM
Well said, Maguire.

Panic benefits no one.

And a postive outlook benefits everybody but the short sellers.

Alan

stan v
08-26-2003, 04:27 PM
There are a lot of things you can look for from the left. A positive outlook ain't gonna be among 'em.