Real vs fake varnish???

[paul oman]

Hello

It is getting harder and harder to find natural varnish at the typical hardware store (not at home
depot, walmart etc. but still found at Ace). Instead they now all offer 'polyurethene varnish.' I brought
some to test against 'real' varnish but first wanted to see if anyone has already
tested and compared the old vs new varnish? Have two boats I'm getting ready to revarnish.
thanks

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

[JimD]

Paul, hopefully someone with more experience than myself will come along but since I'm always happy to offer my two cents worth...I have (real) spar varnish on our sailboat's boom, and Sikkens Cetol on our bright finished utility and so far as I can tell there's not much appreciable difference. The smellier, more toxic cetol cures a bit faster, and has an orangy/brown tint as opposed to a yellowy tint, but that's about it. Maybe its a bit harder, too, hard to say. I also have clear two part poly on the sailboat's brightwork which has flaked in a few places and I wonder about its uv protection but the epoxy under it seems to be holding up ok. Sometimes it looks like chemistry sells what it can make, not always because its better but because its there.

[htom]

Oh, do I miss Chemist.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00063.asp

http://www.woodworking.com/wwtimes_oilvarnish.cfm

It appears that using polyurethene(sp) results in a harder, faster drying finish. And it can be sold as "new, improved, now with polywhatever!"

[Bob Smalser]

The tradeoff for the harder finish of poly is when it comes time to remove all of it in a restoration. Unnecessarily difficult to get off without ruining the patina of the old wood surface in the process.

[htom]

The other problem with "harder" is that it doesn't stretch and shrink as much, and our wood is stretching and shrinking much more than household items.

[Dan McCosh]

"But nothing still beats Captain's Varnish for wooden boat work finishes.
If you are looking for a nice amber but almost clear, the schooner varnish from Interlux, works great, but still is fairly thin for my liking."

FWIW--Captains is a polyurethane, while Schooner is a tung-oil. alkyd. Cetol is neither--dunno exactly what it is.
"traditional" tung-oil varnishes tend to be softer. Polyurethanes are tough to generalize, as their formulas vary widely, but usually are a bit harder and glossier. We use tung oil most of the time, as it seems to be more friendly with impact dents, etc. Durability seems more dependent on the amount of UV resistance, which varies from brand to brand. There are large variations in cost for either type.

[Dan McCosh]

I was thinking of Interlux Clipper. I've never used Captain's. I was using Crystal, then drifted back to Schooner. I claim to be immune to "better varnish" claims, but sometimes I get weak.

[mustang1]

Originally posted by paul oman:
Hello

It is getting harder and harder to find natural varnish at the typical hardware store (not at home
depot, walmart etc. but still found at Ace). Instead they now all offer 'polyurethene varnish.' I brought
some to test against 'real' varnish but first wanted to see if anyone has already
tested and compared the old vs new varnish? Have two boats I'm getting ready to revarnish.
thanks

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

[mustang1]

Originally posted by Dan McCosh:
"But nothing still beats Captain's Varnish for wooden boat work finishes.
If you are looking for a nice amber but almost clear, the schooner varnish from Interlux, works great, but still is fairly thin for my liking."

FWIW--Captains is a polyurethane, while Schooner is a tung-oil. alkyd. Cetol is neither--dunno exactly what it is.
"traditional" tung-oil varnishes tend to be softer. Polyurethanes are tough to generalize, as their formulas vary widely, but usually are a bit harder and glossier. We use tung oil most of the time, as it seems to be more friendly with impact dents, etc. Durability seems more dependent on the amount of UV resistance, which varies from brand to brand. There are large variations in cost for either type.

[mustang1]

I have been painting and varnishing boats in Northeast Florida for the past 20 years and as a result have tried just about every varnish out there. The system that I found to be the best is Awlgrip's Awlspar and Awlbrite Plus. For new wood,apply a sealer coat of Awlspar, followed by 3or4 coats full body. After that ,wait a minimum of 7 days, sand with 320 and start to apply the Awlbrite Plus. The knock on Awlbrite was that it didn't have the traditional amber look. The Awlspar base gives you that look. I have done 5or6 boats using this system and owners have been getting over a year to almost two years without refinishing. This system has more UV protection and gloss retention than any system I have tried. Best advise is to follow Awlgrip's instructions. Do not deviate. Data sheets are available from Awlgrip on their Website. Try it you'll like it.

[Mrleft8]

Last year I used Benjamin Moore 440 spar varnish from the local ACE hardware. It looked great. Lasted very well except where there was issues with sharp rocks and some rope wear. So I decided to sand some areas down to bare wood and try the Epifanes stuff. I hate it. It takes forever to dry. It is a runny ugly blue/gray color in the can. It does color up nicely once it dries....But it takes 72 hours to dry. I'm going back to the 440.

[StevenBauer]

If you want traditional try Le Tonkinoise! Man I love this stuff. ClassicBoat Magazine is well into a multi-year varnish test and Le Tonk is tied for first so far.

Steven

[CarlZog]

Originally posted by Dan McCosh:
Captains is a polyurethane, while Schooner is a tung-oil. alkyd.So, will a coat of polyurethane and a tung-oil coat layer badly with one another?

Carl

[mustang1]

Mike, I have used it everything from handrails,toerails,caprails,coverboards,the entire wheelhouse on Dyer29. Also did 2 1953 Chris runabouts. Works equally well on either teak or mahogany. If using over older conventional varnish in good shape and at least 60 days old, there is no need to use the Awlspar. Just sand the old varnish with 180 grit and apply the Awlbrite. This system is compatible with just about all varnishes with the exception of Cetol. That must be stripped. Hope this answers your question.

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by Carl Z:
"... will a coat of polyurethane and a tung-oil coat layer badly with one another?"

The rule of thumb is, oil over plastic but not plastic over oil.

now having said that ... I use both traditional and poly/oil blend varnish. I've put poly/oil blend varnish over a very thin traditional varnish base and the paint is now one year old, as a varnish anti-skid, that should test it and it has held up well so far.

I've also put clear poly over enamel and again it hasn't failed (yet), it seems to have held up, I was retouching boat signage and wanted to unify the gloss, I wouldn't consider doing this on anything else. I also let all the surfaces cure well before doing it with both the anti-skid and the signage.

The problem with putting plastic over old oil, is sweat out, it needs to happen. When I've taken old varnish off it is still oily, even 20-30 year old varnish.

Warren.

[ 06-13-2005, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Jay Greer]

There is still one true varnish on the market. It is still made of natural oils and cooked in huge copper kettles.
If you can find it, Behr Spar Varnish is the product. The former owner of Behr, is a friend who used our services and would supply us with the product by the case. Illegal in California, I understand that Behr Varnish can be purchased at the Big Orange Box. Just remember that a minimum of eight coats is needed for all season protection. Then two coats each spring.
JMG

[mustang1]

Mlke, I'd me more than happy to show you couple of projects. I will be back in town July 4. E-mail me before next Friday and we'll set something up.