View Full Version : Dog training

Jack Heinlen
11-04-2004, 06:06 PM
Assuming this doggie comes to live with me I'm going to have to get back on my game with training. I haven't trained a dog in over a decade. For example, at the time the standard tool for correction when on lead was a choke chain. Those have fallen out of favor, for obvious reasons, and now something called a gentle leader is common.

I understand the basics of behavior modification well, but wonder if anyone has a book or a website they could recommend as a favorite, for the details.

11-04-2004, 06:11 PM
I'm following your saga with interest, Jack. My dog came with a spiked collar (spiked on the inside) which I immediately threw away. Maybe I was just lucky, but he made a real effort to figure out what was expected of him. They get the message. I think positive reinforcement (treats) always works better than punishment. Maybe not with all dogs. I'm not much of an authority, but if I needed a choke collar to get my dog to pay attention to me I'd take him back to the shelter and get someone else.

Bear in mind if he/she is a lab or collie a little personal freedom (outside, unleashed) goes a long way toward mellowing them out.

[ 11-04-2004, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Victor ]

Billy Bones
11-04-2004, 06:15 PM
I don't subscribe to the pussification of dog training these days, but I have to say the gentle leader really works well. On two of my three dogs it worked vastly better than the choke chain, not because of it's 'gentle' quality, but because it concentrates the dog's attention where you want it, unlike the choker which is only a crude tool for focus. The other dog required a barbed collar and a crop, because of long fur and a short attention span. A dog has a very limited pain reaction, so the choker is hardly noticed. But with the gentle leader, boy they hate that thing on their muzzle and will learn very quickly how to keep focused on you. It's a tool of will, not pain.

edited to add, The monks of new skete books and video are really good, at least for my purposes and breed, and I recommend them highly.

Also, after reading Victor's post, I disagree somewhat with the idea of trading an initially difficult dog in for another. Do your homework and decide before you adopt what you can and cannot accomodate/train out of your dog.

Finally, view my comments with the understanding that my dogs were and are trained for agression and discipline. Ideally they remain quiet in a room full of vicious dogs, and will attack viciously in a passive environment, if so directed.

But they all began with the basics, just like any good pooch, and have retained the basics quite well, even for german shepherds. :rolleyes:

[ 11-04-2004, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Billy Bones ]

Jack Heinlen
11-04-2004, 06:41 PM
Used properly a choke chain isn't cruel, and is effective. It's kind of a misnomer, because it is really just a minor jolt, used very judiciously, that acts as a reminder. I'm not familiar with the use and theory behind the gentle leader, but it sounds good. I sense it's got a different theory behind it, hence my question.

I've never trained a large, aggressive, alpha dog, so I can't speak to it, but with willing girl dogs a simple choker usually works quite well. Treats, and constant praise, combined with measured, predictable use of the choker, about sums up the dog training I learned when I worked as as a trainer for a bit. You don't use it as a restraint, and never give more than two corrections before you make the dog do what you want, and then give positive reinforcement.

This dog is a smart, willing girl dog, so I don't expect much trouble. But I do want to do my best with her, and she is going to need some good training.

[ 11-04-2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

Ken Hutchins
11-04-2004, 07:03 PM
Don't totally rule a choke collar, it is still used at times, primarilly for healing on lead, the animal will learn when the collar is on don't pull walk beside the handler and behave. redface.gif
Treats, doesn't have to be food, anything the animal likes can be a treat, a favorite toy, having ears shoulders or back scratched. smile.gif Of course food will most likely be top on the list. Now there is a problem if the animal is fat and overfed, "Oh! you want me to do what, for a treat, I'm fat and lazy, you feed me good so why should I do anything for food?" tongue.gif What I'm saying here is cut back on the regular food, don't starve it but figure a certain amount of the diet is going to be treats for doing something. My wife found this out with her dog doing agility, dog gots fat and lazy and would actually walk, refusing to run around the course and at times sit in front of jumps till she was dammed well ready to jump. So after a lot of agrivation :mad: (I thought it was comical) :D Shirl went to a different trainer, paid to have the trainer tell her the dog would never run unless it went on a diet. So diet time and took 1-1/2 pounds off that little 12 pound dog, and the results were fantastic she now runs incredibly fast. Shirl's young dog should not have too much of a weight problem he is simply hyper active and will do most anything just to have his ears scratched or play with a ball for a reward. Your body movements mean at lot also, an effective dicipline thing is to turn your head away and not look directly at the animal when something is done wrong, this tells them they did something wrong.
Oh ya, the therapy training info, I forgot and she is out again doing more training, I will try again tomorrow.

11-04-2004, 07:34 PM
Jack...never had a problem Immediately after feeding...took the pooch outside. :D
Then set the clock at 3 hour intervals! ;)

Hal Forsen
11-05-2004, 11:43 AM
Jack, My friends call me the dog whisperer; I have a real rapport with canines. In fact as I type this I have my pals new pup on my lap,the dog is staying here for a couple days boot camp.
The choke chain (Very Badly named) if used properly is fine for teaching walking, heeling and sitting to most dogs.
I highly recommend the books by the Monks of New Skete and also Uncle Matty (Matthew Margolis).
Good Luck.

Matt J.
11-05-2004, 04:24 PM
Where's Freya going to live, any word?

Great, I'm heading home and offline for the weekend, and I won't know if little Freya got a new forever home.

11-05-2004, 05:00 PM
Jack, when my Dalmatian bitches were young, and used to do something really wrong (e.g., chase and kill some islander's chicken when walking a trail on Ilha Grande), I used grab a stick, and brimming with wratheous reproach, repeatedly hit the ground next to them with all force.

When treated to such a display of displeasure, they rarely (if ever) comitted the same sin twice.

Never any need for actual physical contact - there is nothing a dog hates more than to be hated, even if briefly. Of course, the other half of this technique is to normally show your dog a lot of love - so it has something to lose. ;)

Now Lua and Estrela are nine years old, and proper well-behaved ladies, but I have a year-old mutt we picked up in the street. Half Brazilian Fila, half something else, and weighing in at 70 kg! Alpha male, but very obedient. The slightest hint of a harsh word gets him to repent - amazing for a dog that spent at least a few months as a street dog in a rural area, and was almost starved when he showed up at our door. But since he is so big and potentially harmful, I occasionally growl at him, and have been known to bite his ear (!) - just so he knows he is not really the alpha male in this pack!

Also, a professional dog trainer I know advised me to sometimes come home and ignore him (as opposed to responding to his greeting). That supposedly reminds him that I don't need his permission to enter the territory...

11-05-2004, 07:00 PM
The Gentle leader is a great invention. I got one for my lab when she was 6 months. she used to act like a sled dog on her leash. She is great off leash, which is most of the time, she quarters well an all that, in the city she just doesn't get cars. but the gentle leader works the same way has a horse harness works. you can direct them, and if they try to pull, their head pivots around before they can throw their legs (4WD) into it. As far as books go, for basic obedience stuff, you should check out patricia mconnell. She has a public radio show in WI that is broadcast across the country and on the internet-it's called "calling all pets". I grew up listening to her show, because it was sandwiched in between car talk and the michael feldman show. I always dismissed her ideas as a little fruffy, but once i got a dog i feel totally different. shes got a lot of advice for behavior correction too, not just in puppy training. her clientel seems like mostly people who've adopted dogs with behavior problems. her books are also really inexpensive, they are more like booklets actually, but they aren't fancy, just informative. i shrugged her off as nonsensical, but she sure knows whats she's doing. i used her methods for basic obedience and my lab winnie, now almost 2, is wonderfully behaved. she doesn't cover hunting training, but she's spot on with everything else.
good luck with it,

11-05-2004, 07:08 PM
My father trains hunting dogs (english setters mostly). I don't recal him ever using a choke collar. He uses an electric collar and lots of reward training. The collar is used n conjunction with a whistle. After a very short while the collar can be abandoned and only the whistle is needed (sometime with a dummy collar) to bring the dog to a dead stop no matter how far afield and no matter how bird crazy he/she is at that moment.

Jack Heinlen
11-06-2004, 08:03 AM
Freya went to a home with children. I'm disappointed, but...life goes on.

11-06-2004, 05:07 PM
I don't believe in training a dog via a book, but I highly reccommend reading Good Owners, Great Dogs by Brian Kilcommons.

It's worth its weight in gold. In addition to teaching about how dogs learn, it's an excellent reminder that 75% of "dog training" is actually "owner training".

11-06-2004, 09:56 PM
Jack, I'm sorry to hear that, it seems that your dog authorities treat it as an adoption , more than finding a home for a dog. To my thinking if a dog needs a home the first decent home offered should be the one it goes to. There's some level of prejudice towards the mononucleic family operating there I think.

Jack Heinlen
11-06-2004, 10:06 PM
I feel the same way. I took the time to drive three hours round trip, liked the little wench a lot, after having thought and looked a lot, and they gave her to someone else.

There is some weirdness in it that I can't speak well to. But I'm mildly pissed. If the shelter director had told me they wanted family with children I wouldn't have washed bedding and dug out toys.

So it goes. :( Sweet little dog. I wish her well.

11-06-2004, 10:23 PM
One doesn't "train" a dog. A dog responds to it's person. Either it does what it's person wants it to willingly, or it is forced to do what it's person wants it to by coerssion. I have found that coerrsed dogs tend to chew couches, rugs, entire bathrooms, etc. While dogs that learned manners through basic thoughtful lesson tend not to destroy household items. Of course results may vary. Consult your conscience, and report any bleeding from the brain to your doctor imediately .

Jack Heinlen
11-06-2004, 10:31 PM
One doesn't "train" a dog. Simply not true. It's complex, but a dog needs to be taught certain things, or they are not good company.

Did yu read the thread Doug? I'm very agrieved that I've lost this dog. I can't understand it. It hits me in a way that I'll take awhile to digest.

11-06-2004, 10:53 PM
Yes sir, I did read the thread. And you and I will politely continue to disagree about dog training. Webster has never chewed a table, chair, or human leg, and he was never taught not to do this. It was just an undefined, obvious no-no. Mudd, dear boy that he was, when he arrived here malnourished, beaten, and obviously unloved, made a few booboos when he was brought in from the cold. He pissed on the floor the first night. He had no guilt about it. I showed him his puddle, I showed him the open door, and gave him a good pat. He wasn't "trained" he was "informed". There were a few other lapses in edicate, but not too many, and he really did figure it all out without "training".

Jack Heinlen
11-06-2004, 11:57 PM
Distinctions without differences.

11-07-2004, 02:39 AM
Jack, I think your desire to provide a home for a dog that's in a shelter is a noble ideal that doesnt seem to be working for you. Maybe you should look for a pup more locally.

11-07-2004, 03:16 PM
Told ya, Jack, the good ones go quick. Why do you keep disappointing yourself like this? Seems to me just about any dog would be happy to have you. Next time you see one you like, remember you won't be the only one who wants it. This is - what? - the third time you've made up your mind only to find it's gone?

Or maybe you're looking in the wrong place. There are some private shelters that I wouldn't waste my time at. The SPCA and county shelters seem more willing to make placements without too much fuss, especially with less-popular breeds like Airedales or basset hounds.

I got the finest cat I've ever known from the SPCA. Walked in and told them what I needed (a dog-friendly cat) and they brought out this really beautiful black cat who turned out to be friendlier than any cat I've ever known.

Jack Heinlen
11-07-2004, 03:47 PM

I was there first, and the first day I could make it. I'm obviously a dog lover, and Freya and I hit if off. Don't blame me the shelter director had made up her mind to adopt the dog to a family with children and hadn't told me. I'd been in touch with this shelter for two months, had good conversations on the phone with Lorna, AND, and I was going to double their adoption fee, as a donation(I didn't tell her that). It was badly handled. :mad:

In retrospect, it was clear when Lorna and I sat down for a talk that unless the Adams Family walked through the door on Friday she was going to adopt Freya to them. I was the fall back. That's okay, I just wish she'd told me up front. It would have saved me lending hope to an emptyness.

I'm not feeling warm and forgiving at the moment. Amazing how worked up one can get about a dog. smile.gif She is a good one.

And Doug, I suspect that if you and I really compared notes on dog training we wouldn't be that far apart. Sheba got a modicum so she would heel, on lead and off, and sit and lie down, stay, come when called, basic stuff like that. All of which made her a better dog and all done without much coercion, but rather praise. Dogs like direction, it's part of their nature as pack animals to want to know who is boss. It's not coercion, in most cases. And Sheba never chewed anything she wasn't supposed to, never got in the garbage, never ate the cat's turds, etc.

11-07-2004, 03:53 PM
Jack, that's a bummer. Definite blind prejudice at work, assuming that mom-pop-and-kids families are better for dogs.

It is laudable of you to want to adopt a shelter dog, but think about this: if you buy a dog, you are reducing supply, and this will indirectly lead to additional demand on shelter dogs. And you will still be providing a good home to a dog that might otherwise end up chained behind some gas station...

Re: training. My dogs were raised with lots of love and understanding - and when they were little they still chewed up the house and raised hell on the trail. They definitely had to be conditioned to not be anti-social, as they could not possible understand modern human social norms on their own. As they aged, though, they mellowed out, and became eager to be "good dogs," and to not be "bad dogs," out of a spontaneous canine "moral" sense (see the Darwin thread). They now will not do anything we don't like, not because we train them not to, but because they feel a spontaneous need to please us and not piss us off.

11-07-2004, 04:25 PM
Is Lorna's a private shelter? I've heard of this happening to others. If you find a dog you like and they won't give him/her to you on the spot, maybe you should take your business elsewhere. Around here there are shelters all over the place, a really great selection of homeless pets. Good on you for not going to a breeder or a puppy mill. Aside from the cost I've heard more stories than I can count about so-called purebreds that turned out to be all messed up.

km gresham
11-07-2004, 04:29 PM
I like some of the purebreds, but I think mutts make the best pets. They seem to be smarter. smile.gif Not overbred for looks helps I guess.

Good luck in the search, Jack. Puppies need good homes too, though. Don't rule them out. smile.gif

[ 11-07-2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

11-07-2004, 05:27 PM
I agree with you Karen, (after all, its not politics ;) )

The thing about purebreds though, is that when getting a pup you have a good idea how the adult will turn out.

Matt J.
11-08-2004, 09:38 AM
Buying a puppy only encourages breeding. The puppies will find homes regardless. Jack's doing the right thing adopting. (albeit slowly ;) )

Only thing to do is be less selective and give a more needy dog a home. Simba, our 9.5 year old Dane has given us almost a year and a half already. She's become a real poster child for needy dogs. We even thought maybe we were nuts for taking in an 8 Y.O. Dane... It turned out to be a great idea.

Don't give up Jack.

Alan D. Hyde
11-08-2004, 09:13 PM
Jack, when you do get a dog, you'll find it helps enormously to have him hang around a little with other older dogs, who are well trained.

They will teach him for you.

And their example will work better than your precepts.


Jack Heinlen
11-08-2004, 09:31 PM
Interesting Alan. I don't claim to be an expert, but have lived with and thought about dogs a lot. I don't think I carry many precepts, except that every dog I've ever known was an animal of the pack, and needed a leader. Another dog can fit, but ultimately it's humans. They are rare and unusual individuals, but let alone they don't tend to make good company. They jump up with muddy paws, they are, sometimes, aggressive with people, etc. They are not, as people often treat them, fuzzy humans. They are different, have a psychology all their own, and need to be socialized to live well with us.

It's a fascinating and worthwhile venture taking on a dog. Too often though people take them on as if they were their fuzzy children. They aren't.

I'm sad this dog didn't work out. She's a sweet pea. I've expressed my displeasure, politely, with Lorna, and that's that. I'm gonna stop looking for awhile.

11-09-2004, 05:22 AM
Interesting thread... I did not have a dog from the time I left to go into the service untill almost 7 years ago, mainly because my life circumstances just wouldn't have been fair to an animal. Finally a few years ago upon losing several wounded Dove while hunting in a peanut field, I decided I needed a hunting buddy to retrieve my birds and I had long wanted a pet anyway. All I can say is I sure made the right decision and I wish I had gotten a dog way.... sooner.

My best friend, Sam, is a 60 lb yellow lab (kinda small for the breed) that I have had for a little more than 6 years. I looked awhile and ended up buying an AKC registered Lab whose parents had been checked for both hips and eyes. Both parents had great looks, were solid hunters/retrievers, and very well behaved. Sam especially had great features and was the lightest of the litter in color. He was also the runt which was fine by me as I wanted a smaller Lab. He also had an affinity for me and I for him from the very first meeting. I was not looking for a field trial dog, just a good retriever and a solid pet. The cost was around $350 and well worth it.

I got him as a 6 week old puppy, raised him with lots of love and attention, socialized him well with both people and dogs, and put him through basic "gun dog" training at 6 months of age. I did my homework in the beginning concentrating on avoiding any mistakes that could negatively influence his education in Gun Dog training. Naturally I taught him to sit and lay down just messing around during the first 6 months of his life plus he learned to hold his head rock solid still with a bisquit on his nose, only grabbing it "mid air" when I said "OK"...

The professional I consulted early on said that most folks played with a puppy too much and that they, the puppys, needed lots of rest than most folks realized. In the early stages of Sam's life, the trainer suggested leaving him in an appropriate sized kennel (in doors) and letting him out every 2-3 hours ( using a leash only the first few days), immediately taking him outside teaching him the commands "outside", then watching him run around untill he went to the bathroom, (saying your favorite command for this act a few times as he went to the bathroom) (I went with "LOOK SHARP" picked up from my UK consultant) ... and when he was done, praise him aplenty and take him back inside. Naturally you would play with the pup only while you could give him 100% attention, so that bad behavior could be minimized, then put him back in his kennel with the "kennel" command with a bit of treat as a bribe (at least initially).

All in all in a few short days the pup, at only 7-8 weeks of age, knew "Outside", "Look Sharp" (meant to him to go to the bathroom), "In" ( meant to go inside the house) and "Kennel" which goes without saying. He also learned that going the bathroom was only done "outside"...

Following these basic guidelines he developed no bad habits and without his realizing it, he "earned" being out of his kennel by behaving well, as I taught him early on what was acceptable behavior. Not having the run of the house, like many folks allow their pets, kept him from getting into mischief and from learning bad habits. This "channeling of behavior along appropriate lines" was the basic tenant of the professional trainer I consulted.

My dog has never developed any bad habits such as chewing up stuff or digging holes in the back yard. A short time later (about 10 weeks of age) I installed a dog run in the backyard with a dog house which kept him quite safe when we were not home. The trainer/consultant was dead set against letting a dog just wander around, hang loose, in the backyard... and thought a dog run with a kennel much safer and better for the dog.

I was determined that this pup would be a member of the family, a "citizen" so to speak, and behave well, and as icing on the cake, retrieve my birds when hunting. Sam has always been allowed in the house when we are home and sleeps in our bedroom.

The hunt dog trainer Sam went to at 6 months specialized in basic "Gun Dog" training for folks who's requirements for a pet met or exceeded their desire for a hunting retreiver. He is able to turn most dogs, (almost 100% in his career) with any drive at all to retrieve, into functional hunting retrievers in about two months give or take... The cost per month was $450 and worth every penny.

He uses both a leash with choke chain (not to choke a dog, just to "pop" against his throat) and electric collars (minimally) , which become unnessary fairly soon.

Before "force breaking" my Sam, he had him well behaved in "off leash obedience" within a week using nothing but a leash and heeling stick. I drove over at least twice a week to get the transfer of respect and to in reality be "trained" myself.

To make a long story short, I have never regretted the investiment in "Sam" both time wise and money wise. Labs have as good a disposition as you could want in a dog, and SAM is no exception. I take him along just about everywhere and my hunting is much more enjoyable now. Also three of my friends who have hunted with Sam, have gotten Labs of their own and have put their dogs through basic gun dog training with the same trainer. I also have a few friends who decided to train their own dogs for retrieving and obedience... and the professionally trained dogs look like "little soldiers" compared to the dogs with amatuer training... They were just taught right and do not forget it their entire lives. Its easy to teach basic obedience but the gun dog retrieving is a bit more complex and a professional is able to "read" individual dogs.

All in all, the old adage is true, you get out of something what you put into it, and with dogs, it is very very true.... Don't wait on getting a dog, the sooner you get one the sooner you will begin to smile and enjoy having him/her around...believe me, they are a blast!


[ 11-09-2004, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

11-09-2004, 06:05 PM
Hi Jack, your endless saga about dogs you don't get is getting a bit boring and any advice you continue to get add nausium from this forum obviously doesn't seem to sink in. You might ask yourself why.
If you want a damn dog go buy a puppy for pity sake.
At the same time buy an electric collar and a hundred pound bag of treats. Use the treats often and the collar very rarely.
Oh yeah, after you've done that (which of course you won't because you seem to need our attention worse than you need the dog)spend more time with the dog and less time here talking about getting one. You remind me of the guy here who could never make his mind up whether to buy a power or a sail boat. In the end I don't think he did either. He is know on another forum asking the members daily whether he should buy a car or a pickup.

Ian McColgin
11-09-2004, 06:40 PM
I was raised training dogs and horses and was happily surprised about twenty years ago to discover Vicki Hearne's book "Adam's Task" which really looks at the underlying moral issues of animal ownership. She became more fameous about a year later when she saved a dog named Bandit from execution.

Check FFFFFF%3BAH:left%3B&q=vicki+hearne&spell=1
for a good essay appreciation of Hearne and her causes.

Mastery of horse and hound is a spiritual adventure not for the self-indulgent. Dr. Hearne gets to that understanding is a wonderfully philosophic manner.

Jack Heinlen
11-09-2004, 07:38 PM
Golly jwaldin, that seems harsh. I've written a lot about dogs the last year and a half partly because they interest me, partly because I had one that was dying, and partly because I've been looking for a new one. Oh, and partly because I think they are more interesting than political bickering. The conversations, especially this one, have been enlightening. I won't enumerate them, but I've learned from this conversation things that will make me better with my next dog.

Sheba died almost six months ago. I've actively been looking for a dog for about two months. That it seems belaboured is your problem. I don't take the decision of dog companionship lightly. There have been dozens I could have taken, but I'm selective. There have been two I was ready to take home on the spot, both adopted elsewhere.

It is more interesting than partisan bickering, to this pilgram anyway. So go tie your undies in a knot. smile.gif

11-09-2004, 07:59 PM
I agree that talking about anything is more interesting than political bickering.
Why don't you just buy a puppy? Why go through the heartache and hassle of trying to get a grown dog. To be frank I wonder if you aren't subliminaly setting your self up for disappointment.
I've read all your posts over time and you sound like an unhappy person. Maybe you need to think about why you keep making decisions that reinforce your unhappiness.

Jack Heinlen
11-09-2004, 08:19 PM
Thanks for your concern, but I don't think I'm much off the center of the bell curve as far as happiness goes. And I took a decision to get this dog, which would have brought much canine light into my life. But, ultimately, it wasn't up to me. It should have been, IMO, but it wasn't

And I've looked for puppies too. Taking on abandoned or unwanted animals seems the best choice to me, be they pups or grown. So many go into the crematory.

Maybe I'm not meant to have a dog right now. As dear and lovely as Sheba was, she was also a huge responsibility that shaped my life for twelve years. Maybe life is pointing me toward other responsibilities.

P.S. To think long and hard about matters is not, necessarily, a sign of unhappiness.

11-09-2004, 08:38 PM
No offence meant Jack. You ask for opinions and ideas from strangers about what seems to be a very personal matter with you. I gave you mine for what it was worth.

Jack Heinlen
11-09-2004, 08:46 PM
No offense taken. It's difficult to translate words on a screen into genuine meaning. We should, all of us, try to be precise and generous, given that.

11-10-2004, 01:14 AM
Jwaldin's post got me thinking, I agree with you that it doesnt seem to be the time for a dog at the moment. Maybe its time to get that boat and do the trip you posted about a while back.

Dogged determination is what it takes! :D

11-10-2004, 06:18 AM
Buy a puppy? Forget it! Buying means purebred and IMHO the AKC has messed up American dog breeds so badly you really have no idea what you're getting anymore, behaviorwise and healthwise, unless you know the breeder. Next time you see one you like, get it, and if they won't give it to you, go elsewhere. When I got my dog he'd been badly abused and was a mess, but he was your basic Lab so I knew he'd come around, and he did, very quickly.

Yesterday morning a black guy was walking a black dog that looked just like mine, only it was a Rottie that tried to bite me when I went to pat it. OK, now I know why the blacks around here are afraid of my dog, despite the wagging tail and hanging tongue. My point is it's not hard to see a dog's basic personality, and if it's something like this, you can train it til the end of time and it'll still be a dog you can't trust around children.

[ 11-10-2004, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Victor ]