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alteran
12-29-2004, 10:13 AM
Agree or not, an interesting viewpoint.

------------------------------------------

# As I saw the tragic scene of bodies being dumped ... literally dumped ... in mass graves the thought occurred to me that there are so many families who will never have any solid idea of what happened to their wives, husbands, fathers, mothers and children. Look for massive insurance fraud. Who do you think will be the first person projected for saying that their heavily insured wife or husband perished in a tsunami and was obviously buried in a mass grave.

# By the way. I really don't care to read any more about the damned celebrities, including that freaking "supermodel" who were caught up in the disaster. I'm sure the people who lost their entire families in Sri Lanka don't care either.

# Remember this. Americans are going to spend tens of millions of dollars helping the victims of this tragedy and rebuilding their countries. Then, as soon as we are through, these nations they'll be right back to resenting us and hating us for the very wealth that allowed us to help them in the first place. Also .. many of the nations we'll be spending the money on are heavily or predominantly Muslim. Remember ... no good deed goes unpunished.

Form Neil Boortz.

Gary Bergman
12-29-2004, 10:20 AM
I was watching a program on the History Channel with the volume down...some radiating lines on a map they were showing seemed to be the 'disaster zones' on the news maps of Indonesia and surrounding countries.I turned up the volume to hear the commentary, and it was a map of Al Queda influenced terrorist spinoff groups.......co-incidental?..sure, but interesting, non the less...

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
12-29-2004, 10:21 AM
We have to help them, it's who we are.
Our rewards may not come in this life but the next. ;)

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-29-2004, 10:27 AM
Points 1 and 2 are fair enough, although insurance fraud is not that easy; where there is a payout involved, a private investigator will be hired, and yes they most certainly are to be found in Thailand, a nation which has some experience in the field of insurance fraud of this type. Passport fraud may be easier.

Point 3 is pathetic. Mr Boortz is trying to make his readers feel sorry for themselves, in the comfort of their homes at Christmas, in the face of real disaster. Worse than that, it is sick; whatever makes Mr Boortz think that merely because people are Moslem (which the Indonesians mostly are, and the Sri Lankans and Thais mostly are not) they should be treated any differently to anyone else.

This man is sick; he needs treatment.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-29-2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Gary Bergman:
I was watching a program on the History Channel with the volume down...some radiating lines on a map they were showing seemed to be the 'disaster zones' on the news maps of Indonesia and surrounding countries.I turned up the volume to hear the commentary, and it was a map of Al Queda influenced terrorist spinoff groups.......co-incidental?..sure, but interesting, non the less...Your geography is perhaps not your strongest point, Gary.

Sri Lanka is Hindu and Thailand is Buddhist.

India is mainly Hindu, the Andaman Islands are Hindu and Christian.

[ 12-29-2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

High C
12-29-2004, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gary Bergman:
I was watching a program on the History Channel with the volume down...some radiating lines on a map they were showing seemed to be the 'disaster zones' on the news maps of Indonesia and surrounding countries.I turned up the volume to hear the commentary, and it was a map of Al Queda influenced terrorist spinoff groups.......co-incidental?..sure, but interesting, non the less...Your geography is perhaps not your strongest point, Gary.

Sri Lanka is Hindu and Thailand is Buddhist.

India is mainly Hindu, the Andaman Islands are Hindu and Christian.</font>[/QUOTE]Read it again, Andrew. This was not Gary's geographical interpretation, it was the History Channel's. Their map, their commentary.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-29-2004, 11:06 AM
I just did. I still think it is Gary's commentary on the History Channel's map, unless (which I doubt) the History Channel were muddling up the religions of some of the most populous nations in the world.

Victor
12-29-2004, 11:22 AM
With you, Andrew. This guy Boortz doesn't have a kind bone in his body. I doubt that many of these people even had insurance, and the first thing that comes to this jerkoff's mind is they're going to commit insurance fraud. The second thing is they're going to hate us for helping them. What an a$$hole! This sounds like something you'd hear in a white trash bar, not something you'd read in a newspaper.

Is this the kind of thinking that got Bush re-elected?

Bob Smalser
12-29-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by alteran:
Agree or not, an interesting viewpoint.

Then, as soon as we are through, these nations they'll be right back to resenting us and hating us for the very wealth that allowed us to help them in the first place. Also .. many of the nations we'll be spending the money on are heavily or predominantly Muslim. Remember ... no good deed goes unpunished.

Form Neil Boortz.Utter nonsense from somebody who surely hasn't spent any time in those places.

To believe that a billion or so folks of Islamic faith across several races and dozens of nationalities universally hate Americans or Westerners in general because of a small percentage of religious extremists predominately from a couple oddball Arab and Persian Wahabi and Shi'ia sects is xenophobic paranoia bordering on lunacy.

At least Typhoid Annie Colter does this tongue in cheek and makes me laugh.

[ 12-29-2004, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

High C
12-29-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
I just did. I still think it is Gary's commentary on the History Channel's map, unless (which I doubt) the History Channel were muddling up the religions of some of the most populous nations in the world.I suppose I shouldn't butt in and interpret what someone else has said, but this seems clear to me.

"I turned up the volume to hear the commentary, and it was a map of Al Queda influenced terrorist spinoff groups....."

I read that to mean that he turned up the volume and heard commentary that the map was showing locations of Al Queda influenced groups.

Maybe I read it wrong. Gary?

alteran
12-29-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Victor:
I doubt that many of these people even had insurance, and the first thing that comes to this jerkoff's mind is they're going to commit insurance fraud.Most? No. Some out of 60,000+? Certainly.
Remember it was beachfront that was destroyed and thats where tourists tend to go.
Also worth noting Victor he is talking about fraud.
As in people who were not killed but their benficiery claims they were.

[ 12-29-2004, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: alteran ]

NormMessinger
12-29-2004, 11:43 AM
Did the Good Samaritan ask the poor begger if he would love him if he helped him? I rather think not.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-29-2004, 11:46 AM
OK, here is the technical side of the insurance impact, cut and pasted from today's LLoyd's List:

TOTAL insurance industry exposure to the Asian tsunami could range from a few hundred million dollars to a maximum of perhaps $10bn, according to initial estimates necessarily based on incomplete information.

To put that figure in perspective, the payout for the four hurricanes that struck the US and the Caribbean earlier this year was $20bn in Florida alone.

It seems that no large cities, industrial parks or factories with insurance cover have been seriously damaged by the disaster.

Many of the tsunami victims are among the world’s poorest people, and simply do not have cover, observers said.

According to one telling statistic, total insurance premiums per capita in the US last year came to $3,638.

The comparative figure for Indonesia is $14.50.

In addition, rebuilding costs are lower in the developing world. Ironically, the main claimants are likely to be resorts and affluent western tourists.

A statement from Lloyd’s of London said: “We are closely monitoring the developing situation in Asia.

“We expect our exposure to be limited to holiday resorts, personal accident, travel insurance and marine risks.

“Communication links are currently restricted so there is limited information coming out of the affected areas.

“As a result it is not possible at this time to determine the extent of our exposure.”

Reinsurer Swiss Re maintained that it was far too early to come up with authoritative figures, but guessed that the impact would be relatively limited.

Hanover Re, the number five reinsurance player in Europe, put its exposure in the low double-digit million euro bracket, compared to a €300m($396m) bill for the US hurricanes. Allianz said the disaster was unlikely to have a “significant” impact.

Insurance analyst Paul Newsome of AG Edwards & Co told Reuters: “US insurers are likely to have only minimal to no exposure.

“It’s more likely the Bermuda-based reinsurance companies might have some exposure.”

Of the majors, American International Group is most active in Asia, he went on. But the company is easily big enough to take the hit.

Prudential Equity Group analyst Jay Gelb said in a note to clients on Monday that the impact for insurers “could be modest”.

Mr Gelb argued that such losses as did occur might be borne by RenaissanceRe, XL Capital and Ace.

Konrad Becker of Merck Finck told Deutsche Welle: “My guess is that the overall damage from the underwater earthquake will turn out to be less than the damage caused by the hurricanes in Florida and the Caribbean.”

Insurance industry payouts on natural disasters so far this year is put at $42bn, making 2004 the costliest-ever year for the industry.

- Munich Re, the world’s largest reinsurer, believes it will have to pay less than €100m for losses from the tsunami catastrophe in south Asia, writes Herbert Fromme.

“Thus, we see no reason to change our profit forecast of €1.8bn to €2bn,” said a spokesman.

Gerhard Berz, outgoing head of Geo Risk Research at the Munich-based firm, told German television: “We have no truly reliable numbers whatsoever, but my gut feeling would say that the economic damage would be clearly in double-digit billions (of euros).”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note that figure - insurance premiums in the USA are US$ 3,638 per head per year - in Indonesia the figure is US$ 14.50 per head and little of that will be in Aceh.

Victor
12-29-2004, 11:46 AM
You can bet the modern American neocon Good Samaritan would first ask the victim if he had insurance.

alteran
12-29-2004, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Did the Good Samaritan ask the poor begger if he would love him if he helped him? I rather think not.Note that Boortz didn't say we shouldn't help, he was commenting on what be believes will be their attitude in the future.

I've helped a drunk out at an accident scene [as a fireman] a few years ago and there is no doubt in my mind he is still angry because I called the police. I knew he would be when I helped him but I did it anyway.

NormMessinger
12-29-2004, 11:56 AM
And I'm saying their attitude in the future is irrelevant.

yorgie
12-29-2004, 11:56 AM
Andrew,you wrote that Sri Lanka is Hindu.I thought that the Tamils are Hindu but the majority Sinhalese are Budhist.Also southern Thailand,which would have been most affected by the tsunami,does have a large Muslim population.

Were any of the Islands affected lowlying and completely washed over?I shudder at the thought that entire populations could have been extinguished.I woke up last night imagining being on a local beach and seeing the waters suddenly recede.Took me awhile to get back to sleep.

alteran
12-29-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Victor:
You can bet the modern American neocon Good Samaritan would first ask the victim if he had insurance.Thats an insult to millions of first responders and civilian samaritans who are conservatives Victor. If you had a heart attack in my community 5 of the 6 mostly likely to be there first with a defib unit will be Republican leaning conservatives and they would help you no questions asked EVEN IF they knew you think of them.

If you meant it as a joke it fell flat, if you were serious you have a very twisted and inacccurate view of your fellow Americans. Some in your community might even consider you a friend unless they knew what you really think.

Bob Smalser
12-29-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by NormMessinger:
And I'm saying their attitude in the future is irrelevant.And I'm saying Boortz is simply wrong.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-29-2004, 12:16 PM
Yorgie, on the other hand, is quite right - I was over simplifying. Sorry.

But yes, Boortz (what an apposite name) is quite wrong - and a boor.

alteran
12-29-2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by NormMessinger:
And I'm saying their attitude in the future is irrelevant.And I'm saying Boortz is simply wrong.</font>[/QUOTE]He may be Bob but I also recall you saying you could support Wesley Clark for President. The Wesley Clark who supported a womans right to an abortion for ANY REASON for the ENTIRE 9 months of pregnancy. That makes me wonder about your judgement.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
12-29-2004, 12:57 PM
Al....If you're going to ask for opinions on a subject, you should, at least, not attack and insult everyone who responds with one different to yours. ;)

Victor
12-29-2004, 12:59 PM
I served on the local rsecue squad for 5 years. We never asked anyone if they had insurance, but once they were in the ambulance the hospitals sure did! Are you aware you might be personally liable if something happens while you're on a call? Anyway, this thing of Boortz you chose to post is the most offensive thing Ive ever seen on this forum.

alteran
12-29-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Victor:
I served on the local rsecue squad for 5 years. We never asked anyone if they had insurance, but once they were in the ambulance the hospitals sure did! Are you aware you might be personally liable if something happens while you're on a call? Anyway, this thing of Boortz you chose to post is the most offensive thing Ive ever seen on this forum.OF course a hosptital asks Victor. Hospitals have expenses to pay. But Victor hospitals were not who you were referring to.

"You can bet the modern American neocon Good Samaritan would first ask the victim if he had insurance."

Personally liable? Not in my state and the municipality I work for has insurance to cover me in any case. And even if I were that has nothing to do with your accusation.

Most offensive thing you have ever read on this forum?? Heheheh, you must have a very short memory. Or a very selective one.

alteran
12-29-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Know It All:
Al....If you're going to ask for opinions on a subject, you should, at least, not attack and insult everyone who responds with one different to yours. ;) If questioning Bobs political judgement because he could support a candidate who supports infanticide is insulting, in your opinion, so be it.

Manchester Union Leader interview with Joseph Mcquaid.

---------------------

Clark: I don't think you should get the law involved in abortion--

McQuaid: At all?

Clark: Nope.

McQuaid: Late-term abortion? No limits?

Clark: Nope.

McQuaid: Anything up to delivery?

Clark: Nope, Nope.

McQuaid: Anything up to the head coming out of the womb?

Clark: I say that it's up to the woman and her doctor, her conscience. . . . You don't put the law in there.

[ 12-29-2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: alteran ]

LeeG
12-29-2004, 01:40 PM
Alteran,,Idi Amin had interesting viewpoints,,,given that most of the people wiped out probably don't even have life insurance,,let alone medical insurance opens a window into Boortz world more than an insight into the risks of disaster relief.
There are probably more stories surrounding Bernard Kiruk and shady dealings than disaster relief after a 9.0 earthquake.

LeeG
12-29-2004, 01:45 PM
oh keerist alteran you were starting to look like an ok guy then you go down the anti-abortion tangent from Boortz spin...try and make this funny cuz they're going to be circling in on you

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
12-29-2004, 02:21 PM
Oh I see,you want alternitive thoughts so you can attack and insult them. ;)
I get it now.
What was I thinking?
Nevermind. :D

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-29-2004, 02:35 PM
Alteran - whilst I differ politically from Bob Smalser on occasion I think his judgement is pretty good.

Looking at the Wesley Clark exchange with McQuaid that you posted above:


Clark: I don't think you should get the law involved in abortion--

McQuaid: At all?

Clark: Nope.

McQuaid: Late-term abortion? No limits?

Clark: Nope.

McQuaid: Anything up to delivery?

Clark: Nope, Nope.

McQuaid: Anything up to the head coming out of the womb?

Clark: I say that it's up to the woman and her doctor, her conscience. . . . You don't put the law in there.
confirms me in that opinion. Clark is not saying what you appear to think, or wish to believe, or would like us to think, he is saying.

You have forgotten three rather important words:

and her doctor

I'll assume that even a neocon understands that there are such things as medical ethics. I assume that you also understand that the common law continues to operate in the absence of statute - specifically, in this case, the law of homicide.

What Clark is saying is that the legislature should not pass additional legislation where none is needed.

I think Bob's judgement is quite sound, here.

alteran
12-29-2004, 02:44 PM
No I haven't forgotten the doctor. Just because a women would need a willing accomplice with Dr. after his name doesn't make the act any less wrong.

And I'll assume even you may have heard of doctors who have no medical ethics.

"What Clark is saying is that the legislature should not pass additional legislation where none is needed."?

Read it again, that is most certainly not what this says.
"McQuaid: Late-term abortion? No limits?

Clark: Nope."

Wild Wassa
12-29-2004, 02:57 PM
If we fail to help the victims in the long term, or we do it in such a dog in the manger and mean spirited way as is 'really' being proposed by this thread, watch out … just butt out of this one US Republicans and leave it to people who have genuine good will.

If the US Republicans start playing games again and patronizingly dictating to equally competent nations (as has happened already today, I saw bush's speech this morning, and an American guy from the World Bank who called the Asian Govenments incompetant, also on TV this morning) it could result in the same as the situation after the Krakatoa eruption resulting in a major increase in Islamic militancy. We are meant to be fighting a war on terrorism not prolonging the agony and creating disaffected populations.

Some historians say that Islamic militancy only gained a foothold in Asia after the Krakatoa eruption, as the populations became disaffected and were let down by provincial and colonial governments. The ultimate result was the Islamic militants eventually drove the Dutch from the East Indies 60 years later ... look at the militancy in Archi Province and in Southern Tailand today.

The areas where Islamic militancy (not just Islam but militancy) is now most active today, in parts of Asia and on the Sub-Continent (excluding Kashmir), they are in the areas most affected by the Krakatoa eruption and tsunamis. The areas with the highest Islamic populations within those countries originally decimated then, have been hit again ... so watch out xenophobes.

They are coming to get you, get back under your beds you will be safe from Tsunamis, Islamists and that psycho called M'uvva Nature. No wonder the World is so fuct-up ... give generously, otherwise what's the point of belonging to humanity.

200 billion on a war about oil verses 40 million in relief ... the US Republicans have said it all again … generosity sticks in your throat does it, xenophobes?

I saw an interview with a US citizen yesterday who claimed that, "a Tai woman who had lost her family, home and all her posessions offered me the only money she had." Tai's are like that.

Warren.

[ 12-29-2004, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Bob Smalser
12-29-2004, 03:22 PM
That makes me wonder about your judgment. Bet my judgment over the course of several decades has saved a few more lives than yours has.

The mindset that supports the judgment of women, couples and their physicians to make those choices for themselves regardless of my selfish personal beliefs is part and parcel to whatever meager success I had in a previous life of bringing your children home successful yet whole-skinned.

Tolerance. Compassion. Empathy. Understanding. Trust. Decentralization. Power Down. Authority Delegation - Resposibility Acceptance.

I find that mindset rewarding in both directions....

...and I vote Republican probably 4 times out of 5.

[ 12-29-2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

alteran
12-29-2004, 03:40 PM
I'm sure your military credentials trump mine Bob. I'm not arguing that and I appreciate your service as I'm sure you appreciate my sons serving us in the Air Force now. One who was just moved to Afghanistan .

The point is infanticide. And I believe those who support it by supporting a man for president who will accept killing a full term healthy baby based only on the decision of the mother and one other person lack good judgement.

LeeG
12-29-2004, 03:58 PM
alteran,,you should have the good judgement to know that aborting full term healthy babies is so theoretical and rare a reality compared to society teaching young men how to kill other people under the guise of "protecting the US". The re-integration of 15,000 maimed and damaged veterans from this war is a cost that vastly exceeds the crocodile tears shed by the anti-abortion religious right. You must have some frustrated energy going on to transfer this earthquake tragedy into an anti-abortion screed.

alteran
12-29-2004, 04:12 PM
"You must have some frustrated energy going on to transfer this earthquake tragedy into an anti-abortion screed."

That not what I'm doing no matter how much you seem to want to bait me into doing so.

If you care to justify the abortion of a full term healthy baby based only on the say so of two people go ahead.

[ 12-29-2004, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: alteran ]

Victor
12-29-2004, 04:13 PM
In this context, Al. Only somebody like Boortz would bring up insurance fraud and anti-Americanism in discussing a massive disaster like this. I daresay even Ann wouldn't stoop this low.

Meerkat
12-29-2004, 04:16 PM
Where Boortz is fundamentally wrong is in his characterization of the attitudes of the people afflicted by this disaster. With the possible exception of Burma, from which there has been little news of how they've been affected AFAIK, the region has a reputation as "America friendly" (ie: safe travel area) and not resentful of us in particular. I have little doubt that there is some "have vs. have-not" resentment, but that's not specific to that area nor is it specifically directed towards Americans.

Seems like a lot of westerners think the area is safe to travel in: I don't know what your TV has been showing you, but mine's been showing a lot of "tourist in the street" interviews with Brits, Germans and Danes, just to mention those I recall offhand.

Boortz is not nearly cynical enough. A real cynic would appreciate the modest reduction in population of an extrememly over-populated area... However, that would NOT be me!

LeeG
12-29-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by alteran:
"You must have some frustrated energy going on to transfer this earthquake tragedy into an anti-abortion screed."

That not what I'm doing no matter how much you seem to want to bait me into doing so.

If you care to justify the abortion of a full term healthy baby based only on the say so of two people go ahead.off the deep end al..how about this, maybe your favorite right to life group and most dreaded pro-choice group could work together on some kind of neo-natal care program..wouldn't that be peachy,,fraternizing with the enemy within,,oh,oh,reality disconnect.

Joe (SoCal)
12-29-2004, 04:39 PM
AL yer and ass
and Fook Bortz :mad:

J. Dillon
12-29-2004, 04:50 PM
Well I guess we have an opportunity to put our money where our mouth is.

Great Scott and WB publications.

Thanks for the chance to do something.

JD

Bob Smalser
12-29-2004, 08:14 PM
The point is infanticide. And I believe those who support it by supporting a man for president who will accept killing a full term healthy baby based only on the decision of the mother and one other person lack good judgment. Your entire premise implies a superiority in judgment and morality over the mother, father and physician involved that I simply don't presume.

Infanticide and, by extension, euthanasia are weighty decisions I hope not to be involved in again...but just like I want those very personal decisions to be my own without your interference on any level, I'm more than willing to allow other adults the same responsibility.

N. Scheuer
12-29-2004, 08:57 PM
Sometimes I read the BILGE, and I wonder whaterver possesed me to get interested in Wooden Boats.

Moby Nick

Harry Miller
12-29-2004, 11:00 PM
Infanticide and, by extension, euthanasia are weighty decisions I hope not to be involved in again...but just like I want those very personal decisions to be my own without your interference on any level, I'm more than willing to allow other adults the same responsibility. Exactly, and voting Republican, as I believe you did, you realized that there are other issues that are more important in deciding who should lead your country. I agree wholeheartedly but am afraid that these wedge or hot-button issues are becoming far too much emphasized to the detriment of important political issues.

alteran
12-29-2004, 11:15 PM
"Infanticide and, by extension, euthanasia are weighty decisions I hope not to be involved in again...but just like I want those very personal decisions to be my own without your interference on any level, I'm more than willing to allow other adults the same responsibility."

Many reasonable people disagree on abortion sometime early in a pregnancy but any man who would agree to killing a full term healthy baby is no man in my book. I never thought you were a soldier who deserved the epithet "baby killer". I may have been wrong.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-29-2004, 11:26 PM
But enough about what americans think, let's talk about what americans think. :rolleyes:

Hey wait, is there any insurance salesmen on the forum? They should go over there and sell.. the market is hyped for it now. :rolleyes:

Neil Boortz....a total idiot. :mad:

Hey Al... Canada has legal abortion. Everywhere. ;)

[ 12-29-2004, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm Jardine ]

alteran
12-29-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
But enough about what americans think, let's talk about what americans think. :rolleyes:

Hey wait, is there any insurance salesmen on the forum? They should go over there and sell.. the market is hyped for it now. :rolleyes:

Neil Boortz....a total idiot. :mad:

Hey Al... Canada has legal abortion. Everywhere. ;) Up to the end of the ninth month for healthy babies?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-29-2004, 11:38 PM
Canada has legal abortion everywhere.... required by law.

Don't bore me with your fundamentalist nightmare interpretations.

Joe (SoCal)
12-29-2004, 11:54 PM
Hey Al when was the last time you got a woman pregnant????

Hell Al when was the last time ........?

alteran
12-30-2004, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
Canada has legal abortion everywhere.... required by law.

Don't bore me with your fundamentalist nightmare interpretations.Yes aborting a full term healthy baby is a nightmare. Sorry to bore you with reality. This is what Clark said,

" McQuaid: Late-term abortion? No limits?

Clark: Nope.

McQuaid: Anything up to delivery?

Clark: Nope, Nope.

McQuaid: Anything up to the head coming out of the womb?

Clark: I say that it's up to the woman and her doctor, her conscience. . . . You don't put the law in there."

---------------

How about not dancing around the issue PMJ?
Do you think it SHOULD be legal to abort a full term healthy baby?

[ 12-30-2004, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: alteran ]

Joe (SoCal)
12-30-2004, 12:24 AM
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid145/p3f626c495d8043f76d21dbe1037fc268/f65f7a91.jpg

Mike Field
12-30-2004, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by yorgie:
Were any of the Islands affected lowlying and completely washed over?Yorgie -- I've just posted this on the Tidal Wave thread --

"Just received from an ex-pat mate in Bangkok --
In Bangkok there is nothing to worry about but to give you an idea, there are 5,000 Australians unreported, 1500 Scandinavians unreported the damage bill is inestimable. It will take five years at least for the infrastructure to be repaired. Some islands off the coast were washed over completely and all was lost, there are no records of who was even there as all the registration details normally kept on the ground floor back office behind reception, was gutted in 5 out of 10 hotels. Where do you start? "

Mike
.

formerlyknownasprince
12-30-2004, 05:55 AM
Great to see the drivel in the bilge continues as usual (not).

A woman I work with was in Thailand - no news (good or bad yet) - and I'm willing to bet there will be a lot more that all we Aussies know among the 5,000 missing.

It's the locals that will suffer - the tourists still alive will get evacuated. The locals - the 5 million + with no drinkable water, no food, etc that will suffer. The western world has probably got enough food and water in there so far to feed less than 1% of them.

I feel rather fortunate to live in an advanced society - my son contracted pneumonia last night and it was most rewarding to watch a top medical team at work in the early hours of the morning. The ratio of staff to patients was probably over one to one - and they were feeling stretched.

How are the Asian going to cope with hundreds of thousands of Cholera, etc cases as this disaster continues? Then again, I suppose its more important to ensure the embers of the recent election are thrown at each other for a while longer, eh guys?

Change hands fellas - you'll gain a stroke!

Gary Bergman
12-30-2004, 10:47 AM
Bloody 'eck, I just turned up the volume...'Islamic terrorists' was the HC's csll, not mine, just a co-incidental comparison, like the 'slave states and those who voted for Bush' maps that were circulating.Regardless of religious flavors, they seem to all be praying to something now.But what the hell, if getting slapped by waves 'entitles'folks to aid, send some to the world's sailors too.....with global warming, we'll all be running aground on what was the Maldives soon enuff.....

rbgarr
12-30-2004, 10:55 AM
It's probably difficult to estimate, but I imagine if some media outlet could depict how similar tsunami would have affected the NA East or West Coasts or Euro coasts, folks might be able to envision the scale of this disaster better.

LeeG
12-30-2004, 11:09 AM
don't think folks want to envision disasters happening here,,,data overload is possible,,need a resolute leader to make it right and keep us safe. Saw the movie. Bad intel. The lights at the end of the tunnell.

km gresham
12-30-2004, 11:30 AM
I can envision it just fine. There's a reason they call it a disaster. It's horrible, devastating, and every other depressing adjective. I think it's incorrect to assume that because it didn't happen here we can't understand the magnitude of the horror.

We see it, we absorb it, we are affected greatly by the devastation and the grief. And there is nothing we can do for the dead, and little beyond donations of money, food and medicine that we can do for the living. Those who have lived through this will never forget it and hopefully it won't occur again until many generations have passed.

I think there is a tendency to think that when people don't weep and wail and gnash their teeth they do not care. This is a falacy.

Would we be more affected if it happened here? Of course - it would take our property, relatives and friends. Would there be more we could do? No. As in every single disaster (hurricanes, 9-11, Snow storms, Tornadoes), we give all that we can to relieve suffering. Our hearts ache for the grieving, but making a huge show of emotion does nothing to alleviate the problem.

Honestly, I don't think the victims care if we profess to "feel their pain" ad nauseam. We can't possibly feel their pain. We aren't there.

They are helped far more by what we do than by what we feel.

[ 12-30-2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

Ken Hutchins
12-30-2004, 11:52 AM
The one positive thing to come out of this disaster is that WHEN not IF another happens, there is a better chance that people will respond to warnings and evacuate the low lying areas. If this happened most anywhere along the US coast, particularly the east coast and warnings went out, virtually everyone would have ignored the warnings because the attitude was that these things only happen in the movies, not real life.

LeeG
12-30-2004, 01:21 PM
Karen, you are right on,,except when it comes to processing unfamiliar information we go with what FEEELS right. When fear is in the mix the ability to reason takes a back seat to what FEEELS safe.

For example do you know how the return of Fallujans is going or the state of that city? Without going to a news source would you say 5%,10% or 20% of the buildings are damaged?

Bob Smalser
12-30-2004, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by alteran:

Many reasonable people disagree on abortion sometime early in a pregnancy but any man who would agree to killing a full term healthy baby is no man in my book. I never thought you were a soldier who deserved the epithet "baby killer". I may have been wrong.I simply believe life begins at conception... hence that abortion at any term is a form of "infanticide"...

...that abortion for medical reasons is not murder...

...and that I'll trust other responsible adults to make their own decisions.

If changing my words around to suit your argument makes me a "baby killer"...then so be it...but this will be our last civil correspondence.

alteran
12-30-2004, 06:08 PM
Your argument Bob sounds like this to me,
I wouldn't kill a 9 month full term healthy baby but I wouldn't stop someone else from doing it if they think it is right in their mind.

If that is your position its a cop out in my mind and not an attitude worthy of a gentleman.

huisjen
12-30-2004, 06:16 PM
Well, Colonel, it looks like you needn't waste your breath.

Dan

yorgie
12-30-2004, 06:19 PM
My friends wife is of Burmese origin,I hope her relatives are okay.Haven't heard much news out of Burma,pretty typical.Indonesia has declared over 100,000 dead then add up Malaysia,Thailand,India,Sri Lanka,the Andamans,Maldives and secretive 'Myanmar'.I think there will be over 300,000 direct casualties with losses from disease and malnutrition growing in the coming weeks.

BrianW
12-30-2004, 10:39 PM
And I'm saying their attitude in the future is irrelevant.Irrelevant as to the subject of giving aid now, but very relevant for global concerns in the future.

Free and mandatory abortions in Canada? Wow, what's still keeping the liberals here? Go people go, run to the light... smile.gif

Joe (SoCal)
12-31-2004, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by alteran:
Your argument Bob sounds like this to me,
I wouldn't kill a 9 month full term healthy baby but I wouldn't stop someone else from doing it if they think it is right in their mind.

If that is your position its a cop out in my mind and not an attitude worthy of a gentleman.Hey Al when was the last time you got a woman pregnant????

Hell Al when was the last time ........?

ohh and ....

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid145/p3f626c495d8043f76d21dbe1037fc268/f65f7a91.jpg

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-31-2004, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by yorgie:
My friends wife is of Burmese origin,I hope her relatives are okay.Haven't heard much news out of Burma,pretty typical.Indonesia has declared over 100,000 dead then add up Malaysia,Thailand,India,Sri Lanka,the Andamans,Maldives and secretive 'Myanmar'.I think there will be over 300,000 direct casualties with losses from disease and malnutrition growing in the coming weeks.Yorgie - from what I am seeing and hearing Burma may well have got off very lightly. I say this because Bangladesh is reporting very few casualties - two, apparently. The fault line runs
N/S and the tsunami seems to have run E/W.

yorgie
12-31-2004, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the reassuring update Andrew.I'm glad that poor old Bangledesh got off lightly this time,they usually have the worst luck.The fewer countries affected the better as it will make aid distribution easier.

Victor
12-31-2004, 02:00 PM
Here's a thought that I'm sure never crossed Boortz's mind: how many Americans are going to solicit aid for the flood victims and then stick the money in their pockets? Ten'll get you twenty about 99% of all the fraud connected with this disaster will be committed by Americans, no doubt readers of his column.

[ 12-31-2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Victor ]

alteran
12-31-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Victor:
Ten'll get you twenty about 99% of all the fraud connected with this disaster will be committed by Americans, no doubt readers of his column.Why do you choose to live in a nation of such evildoers Victor?

LeeG
12-31-2004, 02:26 PM
oh alteran,,maybe he's pulling your chain,,,come on Boortz's comment was stupid beyond belief,,

Victor
12-31-2004, 03:35 PM
Love it or leave it, right Al? In the hands of intolerant kneejerk a$$holes like Boortz? Not a chance. You really think this country was built by people like him?

You can bet there's gonna be massive fraud associated with this disaster, but precious little of it will be by the people who just had their homes and loved ones swept away. I'll be sure to let you know wheenver I hear or read about it.

alteran
12-31-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Victor:
Love it or leave it, right Al? .No I didn't say that Vic. From this post of yours and others I just am surprised that you would want to be in a country full of people you find so stupid and prone to criminal acts.

Victor
12-31-2004, 05:06 PM
I'll admit I find this country less and less interesting. Everywhere you go it looks more and more the same. I grew up in the sixties, when there were really interesting things going on all over the place. Now it seems the only thing that matters is living in a big fat house and driving a big fat car. Perhaps I'm watching too much TV, where the trivial seems important and the important seems trivial.

Just about everyone's on the take one way or another. Someone on welfare or unemployment or disability is at least taking a small amount out of the pot, compared to the armies who are drawing big salaries for doing a whole lotta nothin. The people who have the money have it because they found a way to get it, not because they created it or earned it. Seems like it's pretty much that way everywhere now, so...

Your man Boortz is obviously doing well for himself. According to his bio he was a poor student and had two jobs for much of his life. Now he has two planes, and seems quite proud of himself for getting where he is under his own steam. You'd just think he might show a little more sympathy for those who aren't quite as clever as he is.

Art Read
12-31-2004, 09:53 PM
"...Perhaps I'm watching too much TV..."

Yup.

alteran
12-31-2004, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Victor:

The people who have the money have it because they found a way to get it, not because they created it or earned it. Seems like it's pretty much that way everywhere now, so...

Tell that to my retired dairy farmer neighbors who worked their ass off 7 days a week for 40 years.

Tell that to my neighbor who worked his ass off starting and running the school bus company.

Tell that to my neighbor who started a small trucking company hauling milk from the farm to the dairy. Sold it on retirement with 8 trucks.

Tell that to my neighbor who started at the local phone company when he got out of high school and ended up being the general manager.

Tell that to my neighbor who started in the woods cutting aspen pulp logs in the morning, peeling bark in the afternoon and hauling them to the mill the same day. When he retired he had a nice logging company with several employees. His son bought it and now employs even more.

Tell that to the man who came home from WW2 and started wiring farms with his electrical experience from the Army. He grew that business into a 20 man industrial union electrical shop.

Every man I referred to is a retired millionare in my small town Victor. Every one had or has a wife who worked in the business with him at the same time she was birthing and raising children.

Come to my town Victor and I'll take you to see these people. Tell them "The people who have the money have it because they found a way to get it, not because they created it or earned it."

I'll be happy to video tape these 75 to 90 year old folks politely telling you to leave town before they have me punch your lights out.

Or words to that effect.

Better yet Victor go about your own home town and tell those successful small business owners what you said here. You will be closer to your local doctor for your kicked ass repair job.

Al.

TGP
01-01-2005, 12:13 AM
Al, you take things way too seriously sometimes. Lighten up a bit. smile.gif

A man who can remain calm in the face of adversity is a man to be respected.

Happy new year!

PeterSibley
01-01-2005, 12:16 AM
Victor, I think you mean you have to want it to get it .A bit like collecting roses or stamps or wooden boats ,collecting money is a more popular hobby is all.If you don't want it don't collect it. ;)

alteran
01-01-2005, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by TGP:
Al, you take things way too seriously sometimes. Lighten up a bit. smile.gif

A man who can remain calm in the face of adversity is a man to be respected.

Happy new year!Happy New year to you too. :} I'm calm, not mad at all, but I wonder if someone told Victor that what he has he didn't earn how he might react. ?????

I'll add that I have a very low tolerance for whiners, layabouts, and those who think anyone who has a little more than they do got it by immoral means and should be forced by the government to give it up so it can be given to someone else.

[ 01-01-2005, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: alteran ]

TGP
01-01-2005, 12:23 AM
Who cares man? We're all doing well. It's not that important.

PeterSibley
01-01-2005, 12:40 AM
Alteran ...take it easy, you'll give yourself a heart attack and its too early in 2005 .Victor sees the world from a different perspective,thats not a crime and his feelings about wealth don't harm you or anyone else.Relaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Victor
01-01-2005, 09:28 AM
And you can come talk to our local dairy farmer who worked his ass off for 50 years until his asthma made him stop and then got his farm taken away from him by eminent domain - he even got evicted from his own home. Or come talk to the political cronies who raise taxes every year so they can hire their friends and raise their own salaries. Come talk to the lawyers who charge $200 an hour or more for doing something you could do yourself. Or the corporate bureacrats at AT&T, each of whom made at least 80k a year having meetings all over the country and managing each other - boy did they gripe when the union wanted a raise! (They're gone now). Or the guy making $5000 a month for going around cutting back the hours of the $6 an hour people working in their tire stores. Or the Wall Street types living around here - plenty of them. Or maybe you could have the tax assessor explain why the widow down the street who lives on SS had her taxes doubled because the new people in their million-dollar houses were paying too much.

There are plenty of slackers who aren't on welfare. Most of the people with money earned it, but some just made it - there's a big difference in my mind. The mayor of New York started Bloomberg Television and other financial news sources. OK, he was smart, he saw a market need and filled it. But New Jersey's ertstwhile Senator Corzine, who was paid a cool mill a week on Wall Street, I'd have a real hard time voting for him unless he could explain exactly what he did to deserve that kind of dough.

[ 01-01-2005, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Victor ]

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-01-2005, 09:36 AM
Considering where this thread began, we might consider the fishermen who have worked hard all their lives, built their houses, their boats, their fish traps, maintained them, married, were raising children and who lost the lot on the morning of December 26th.

But that would be silly, wouldn't it. Brown people in hot countries don't work; they just lie around in the sun all day, and if they feel hungry they just knock a coconut down from the nearest tree. They don't need welfare, cos it's warm, see. Their life is one long holiday.

Now they can all get rich, by forging insurance claims on the insurance they never had, according to Mr Boortz, and sponging off the charity of gullible Westerners, according to our very own Mr Lansing.

alteran
01-01-2005, 09:45 AM
What you said,

" The people who have the money have it because they found a way to get it, not because they created it or earned it. Seems like it's pretty much that way everywhere now, so..."

What you now say you said,

"All I said was there are plenty of slackers who aren't on welfare."

You would have made a good running mate for Kerry, Victor.

Joe (SoCal)
01-01-2005, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by alteran:
I'll be happy to video tape these 75 to 90 year old folks politely telling you to leave town before they have me punch your lights out.

Or words to that effect.

Better yet Victor go about your own home town and tell those successful small business owners what you said here. You will be closer to your local doctor for your kicked ass repair job.

Al.Al can I go in Victors stead? I will even bring the video camera. Then I could sell the video of you trying to punch my lights out to Americas Funniest home video with all the proceeds going to the Tsunami Relief. Bwaaaaaaaa haha man just give me the address I would love to reach out and touch you, ya old blowhard. Ya think your bully enough to take me on ??? Or do you fear no man LOL LOL LOL :D :D :D

What a Looser you and Boortz are