Ben Stein on Republicans in Hollywood

[km gresham]

We Shall Overcome
By Ben Stein
Published 12/6/2004 12:09:26 AM


The man at the Christmas tree tent in Malibu kept winking at me and nodding when no one else was looking. I smiled and kept looking at the trees. (In Malibu, we Jews have Christmas trees.) Finally, he motioned to me to come over to is table. He cupped his hand over his mouth and took my hand. "We won," he said. "We won."

I knew exactly what he meant. "You can talk about it," I said. "This is America."

"Yes, but it's also Malibu and I don't want people yelling at me."

A few minutes later, I was grabbing a shopping cart at How's Market in the Trancas section of Malibu when a sweet faced middle aged woman approached me carefully. Then she saw a young couple nearby and turned away. Moments later, she ran into me at the egg cooler, looked around to make sure there was no one looking or listening and said. "I love what you say about politics on TV. You're so brave. I'm on your side. There are some of us here but we keep our mouths shut."

"You don't need to," I said. "The election's over. We won."

"Yes, but it's not over out here. Can you believe they just had Michael Moore at the new Malibu bookstore and they've never invited you and how long have you been out here?"

"Twenty-four years off and on," I said.

"Well, anyway, when I see you and I smile at you, you'll know what it's all about. Go Bush," she whispered and headed for the fresh fish.

Earlier in the day when I had been doing some looping at a studio on Radford Drive in Studio City for a movie in which I have a part ("Son of the Mask" if you must know ), a man on a forklift came by and winked at me. "Keep giving 'em hell," he said softly. "There are more of us here than you think. Bush rules."

This is the way it is here. We meet in smoky places. We give the high sign, we nod knowingly. We are like members of the Maquis in Occupied France. Or early Christians emerging from the catacombs in Caligula's Rome. We are the GOP in Hollywood, and on the West Side of L.A. The culture here is so dominantly left-wing, PC, vegan, hate-America that many of us feel we have to behave as if we were underground.

At a self-help meeting where men and women confess to drug use, betrayals, thefts, homicides with cars, at a break, a woman stealthily came up to me last Saturday and motioned me into a corner outside the room in Malibu. "I want to tell you there are some of us who agree with you. We have to keep it quiet because we want to get our kids into the right schools, but we're there. We're there. And there are more of us every day." Then she scuttled off into the night. Slamming crack can be spoken of with a smile, but not voting GOP. That could be dangerous.

But it's changing.

At an intersection on Sunset Strip, in West Hollywood, a young man in a truck, wearing two earrings and closely cropped hair, gave me the V for victory sign as I walked by him. "We're here," he said. "You can't tell, but we're here. Keep up the talk for Bush."

Some idea of just why people whisper comes from another encounter this week among a group of Hollywood types in a hip night spot. I was saying how much I love my self program. "I'm a Republican, but I learn from Democrats," I said. "I'm a Jew, but I learn from Gentiles. I'm sort of famous but the meetings are where I feel safe."

"Hmmm," said a man who had recently been the star of a sitcom but who had seen his whole life crumble under the weight of some truly horrific family violence. "Republican Jew. Republican Jew. Republican Jew who's famous. Who lives in Beverly Hills. Republican Jew who has more stuff than I have. I don't like it."

"It's a free country," I shrugged.

"Maybe," he said. "Maybe."

This is one of the worst little recent examples of how people here feel about Republicans (and Republican Jews, who simply blow their brains out, to use an old hippie phrase ). But rants, screaming about how we're trying to control women's bodies, draft their sons out of their BMW's and send them to war, scowls and frowns at Morton's, hysterical calls from the network when I appeared on TV backing Right to Life -- these are real. Feeling like outsiders, feeling as if we're going to get our cars keyed if we have Bush stickers on them, getting trash thrown on our yard for having up a Bush sign -- these are real. Getting denied screenplay credits because I worked for Nixon, those are totally real.

Yet, we're here, meeting in smoky places, greeting and giving the secret sign in the fog out by Zuma Beach, more of us every day. And in the words of the Civil Rights song I used to sing when I marched for voting rights in Cambridge, Maryland, "We are not afraid. Deep in my heart, I do believe, we shall overcome some day." Even in Los Angeles, even in Malibu, even in Hollywood. Tremble, Barbra, tremble. We are right outside your gates, with our truth. We are not afraid and we shall overcome.

Ben Stein is a writer, economist, actor, and lawyer in Beverly Hills and Malibu. He writes "Ben Stein's Diary" each month for The American Spectator.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

One of how many C&P & Runs are we going to have today Karen ??????? :rolleyes:

[Gresham CA]

"Buehler, Buehler?"

[Donn]

:D

[km gresham]

Ben Stein - a man of many talents. :D

[alteran]

Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
One of how many C&P & Runs are we going to have today Karen ??????? :rolleyes: You are whining about this on the same morning you submit a DOG VOMIT post?

As TGP said to you just two days ago:

"You need to stop making a fool out of yourself Joe. You've let this go on too long. Let it die. If you don't like what Karen posts on this forum then don't reply. You are not the moderater. You have no control over anybody on here. You have no control over other people outside of this forum either. The sooner you realize that the happier you will be."

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

L@@K the family that tags teams together stays together. Where is John boy :D :D :D :D

[Gresham CA]

He can even fix your red eyes.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Hmm I could simply fight Karens Daily C&P and Run with C&P hmmmmmm now thats a novel idea ya think ? :D :D :D

Ben Steins Money in euro's

Dollar down on job growth gloom

Investors are trying to calculate whether the dollar slide will persist

The dollar has weakened again, after data showing that US firms were hiring far fewer people than expected.

In response, the US dollar quickly lost its half-cent gain of the morning, sending the euro to a record $1.345 and strengthening the pound to $1.942.

US firms added just 112,000 new jobs during November, half the number that analysts had expected.

US stock markets rose regardless on Friday, after strong sales forecasts from giant semiconductor-maker Intel.

Intel is the world's biggest maker of microprocessors.

Europe's leading stock markets closed lower, with falls in London, Frankfurt and Paris. London's FTSE 100 index closed down 3 points at 4,747.

In New York, the Nasdaq index closed up 0.2% at 2,147 points, while the Dow Jones industrial average lost some of its early gains to close marginally higher at 10,592 points.

Economists warn that the dollar is likely to continue weakening, because of the so-called "twin deficits" of the US economy.

Both the US Government's budget and the current account - the measure of the difference between financial flows going in and out of the country - are deep in the red.

As a result, the US needs to suck in as much as $2.5bn in investment each day, creating a buyer's market for dollar assets and pushing the greenback lower.

Payroll disappointment

Good news about jobs would have alleviated some worries about the health of the US economy.

But the expectation of more than 200,000 new jobs was disappointed.

But the unemployment rate, calculated by using a different survey sample, fell slightly by 0.1 percentage point to 5.4% the US Labor Department said.

Intervention talk

On Thursday, the dollar fell to a fresh low against the euro, as talk of possible intervention on the currency markets by Europe and Japan was widely brushed off.

Both are seeing their exporters suffer as the euro and yen are pushed higher, and Japanese officials hinted that concerted action might be possible.

Announcing an unchanged euro zone interest rate on Thursday, European Central Bank president Jean-Claude Trichet refused to discuss intervention.

During Thursday, the dollar reached yet another record low against the euro, a five-year trough against Japan's currency of less than 102 yen, and its lowest level against the pound since before sterling was kicked out of Europe's exchange rate mechanism in September 1992.

[LeeG]

It feels good to belong. Maybe there's a Iyengar Yoga class for Republicans he could join. The grocery stores and stoplights are not good places for personal validation.

[km gresham]

Maybe that's all there is in Malibu for Republicans. Yoga classes are full of self involved libs. ;) smile.gif

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Oooh L@@K Karen is winking ;) ;) ;)

[jwaldin]

Right on Karen! :cool:

[High C]

Ben Stein is cool. :cool:

[Scott Rosen]

I can confirm that being a Republican and a Jew is not always easy. I'm a minority within a minority.

Most Jews are Democrats pretty much because their parents and grandparents were Democrats. They seem to be completely oblivious that Judaism is basically a conservative religion, and that, at least since Reagan, the Republican party has more closely tracked Jewish values than the Democratic party has.

Plus, GWB is the most pro-Jewish and Israel-friendly president this counrty has ever had. Three years ago, many Democrats and Republicans alike, including a lot of you guys, were ridiculing Bush for embracing Ariel Sharon. Well guess what? In today's newspaper, I saw that Mubarek, Asaad and some other Arab leaders are now saying that Sharon is the Israeli leader who can best make progress toward peace, and they are making some significant concessions to Sharon.

Just recently, Bush embraced the ideas of Natan Sharansky, the famous Soviet-era refusenik who spent years in the Soviet prison system for the "crime" of applying to emigrate to Israel. His latest book, "The Case for Democracy: The Power of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny and Terror" is President Bush's favorite book. Sharansky recently paid Bush the highest compliment, calling him a "dissident" and "refusenik."

Maybe Bush's Mid East policy isn't as benighted as some of you think.

[km gresham]

I think breaking out of the pattern of voting a certain way because parents and grandparents and great grand parents did must be difficult. It requires questioning something basic in one's upbringing - like religion.

SC at one time was solidly democrat and at some point some people must have questioned quite a bit, and concluded that the democrat party had left them and their values behind.

[Ian McColgin]

I'm not at all convinced that Bush 43 is better on Israel or better for Israel than his predacessors. Time will tell. I hold, by the way, that the creation of Israel was a good thing and that in the main Israel has been a beacon of democratic courage.

There are exceptions.

To my mind, Ariel Sharon is a thorough-going terrorist villain, starting with his Haganah raids on farmers' homes and his command of the odius Unit 101. In the '56 Suez operation his reckless squadering of paratroopers's lives was so outrageous, so seeking his own glory from a safe place at the expense of his men, that Moshe Dyan reprimanded him and suspended him from command. And on through the pacification of Gaza, the invasion of Lebanon and on to today.

Nixon advanced the theory that the strong leader who is viewed by other leaders as a little bit nuts has real advantages in negotiations. History remains up in the air about that for real, but there is at least a bit of merit to the notion in Nixon's case.

Not so, I believe, with Sharon. Perhaps the Arab world - which certainly has its own share of terrorist leaders - will make an at least temporary "peace" with that crazy violence prone man out of expediency, take a breather, and marshell up some strength, but any 'peace' with Sharon will not last. Given his record, Sharon may well break it himself. Perhaps he'll simply give deliberate provocation to get the terrorists of the other side to break it. Or Arab terrorists will break it.

These are not people of Mandela's stature, not people who can be honest enough about their own histories that they can rise beyond it. These are not the people who will lead the Middle East to peace.

[Ian McColgin]

Back to Stein and Hollywierd, he does have fun. I think his essay "Do Jews Run Hollywood" is brilliant.

http://www.eonline.com/Features/Specials/Jews/

If the Republicans had more folk like Stein and our own Scott, they'd be a nobler party.

[Scott Rosen]

Thanks for the confidence, Ian.

The reason Sharon can do what he precdecessors could not are basic.

First. Arafat is gone. That changes the entire dynamic of the region.

Second. Sharon is the only Israeli leader who can move the Right toward the Center.

Third. He's a brilliant commander of armored forces. Like the best of them (Patton, Rommell) he understands that fast and constant forward movement, and avoidance of head-on confrontations with equal or superior force, are the keys to rapid success with minimal loss of life. He seems to be applying those lessons well to his politics. His unilateral intiative to withdraw from Gaza is in this mold.

[Scott Rosen]

Ian,

As far as Sharon's past behavior, I can only say that if he makes peace and saves lives, he will have earned himself a place at the table of civilized nations. I would have said the same for Arafat.

History has a lot of examples of leaders with blood on their hands. They are ultimately judged by the results. Truman, Churchill, Eisenhower all come to mind. I'm not putting Sharon in their catagory--either as a killer or as a peacemaker--but I'm merely pointing out that we should apply the same standards in judging Mid Eastern leaders as we do for European and American leaders.

[km gresham]

I am hopeful that with Arafat out of the picture progress will be made at last.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Your C&P is too much for me! Ben who?
Charlie

[Elco's]

Thats odd, prior to the election Scot Rosen posted anti Bush sentiments and posted, quote "I never said I was Republican". Which is it?

Bush is not the most pro-Israel, jew, president. Far from it. Look at Carters role in the Egypt-Israel peace plan. Not to mention Johnsons role in the 6 days war, which if he hadn't acted as he did (head the Mediterraininan fleet striahgt towards Israel stopping the Russian led attack heading from Syria, they would not exist today).

To state that GWB is the most pro Israeli President is to make a statement devoid of truth and fact.

GWB peace plan is actually very pro-Palestinian and the Bush administration has mantained a very de cideed "hands off" policy concerning Sharon and his barbaric policys.

The distancing of American policy from Israeli policy has been accomplished by 1) Colin Powells statement to the world that "anti-Israeli critism by the United States government is NOT and never has been antisimetic" 2) the recognized hatred of the Muslim world for Sematic peoples should not include the United States government and Democracy must be seen as a non religous principle.

[ 12-06-2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Elco's ]

[Scott Rosen]

This must be very difficult for you, foote.

Your hero, GWB, is a great friend of a people you despise. Some of GWB's policy-makers are Jewish, too.

You'd best not read about GWB's recent invitation to Natan Sharansky, a hawkish Israeli politician who wrote a book that GWB says is a perfect articulation of his policy. Article from the National Review (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/rosenberg200411190851.asp)

I sense a break in your sanity that's worse than usual.

http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/bush_sharon_laugh483.jpg

http://www.middle-east-online.com/pictures/big/_8873_bush-sharon-13-2-2004.jpg

[Elco's]

First off Mr. Rosen, my name is not Foote.

Second, I dispise no one. From your above remarks you are clearly mistaken and are making a fool of yourself.

[Scott Rosen]

I think you're making a foote of yourself. I remember a recent post where you made reference to your military service. I don't think you ever did serve.

It would be easy to lay your identity to rest if you would simply disclose it, along with the details of your service.

[ 12-06-2004, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

[Bob Smalser]

I agree that the meanest guys are also often the best ones to make peace because of who they can influence among hard liners.

Question is, does Sharon really want to?

We suspect Bush won't twist his arm too far, but this term is his last chance at positive history, and that remains to be seen.

[Scott Rosen]

Bob,

Sharon has an autobiography that's now about 15 or 20 years old. In it, he lays out his basic ideas about coexistence with the Arabs. I have no doubt that he wants peaceful coexistence. There is also no doubt that he is a brutal warrior. The real quesiton is not whether he wants peace, but whether he could ever come to terms with any Palestinian leadership on the details.

If there's going to be peace, I think it will unfold like this:

First, Sharon and a newly elected Palestinian leadership start to talk nice. We're already seeing that start happen.

Next, other neighboring Arab states rally around the players and process, trying to strengthen the moderates and bring the extremists toward the middle. We're also seeing that beginning to happen.

The next steps are more difficult. The Israelis have to start dismantling settlements. Sharon has already made huge progress in this direction with his plans for a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. It is this action that has established his bona fides with his neighbors. However, there's a limit to what he can do unilaterally. In response, the Palestinians need to establish a security force with enough critical mass of public support which will prevent terror attacks on Israelis. This will permit further Israeli withdrawal from the territories and opening of borders, etc.

If Hamas and the other Islamists can be moderated and brought into the political process, then the work will become easier and progress will be faster. If not, then there will either have to be something akin to a civil war among Palestinians, with the moderates getting their support from their neighbors, the US, GB and Israel, or else the status quo will remain.

At some point, if the process continues forward, both sides will have to make difficult concessions. I don't know if Sharon is the leader who can agree to relinquish part of Jerusalem. However, if the process advances to that point, I think the Israelis will boot Sharon and elect a government that can get the job done. Don't forget, the only reason Sharon won was in response to the latest rejection by the Palestinians of the Israeli terms and the initiation of a new round of violence. For years, no one in Israel would have given Sharon a snowball's chance in hell of being elected to anything more than dog catcher. The new Palestinian leadership has already gone on record as saying the latest intefada was a mistake.

Of course, there is absolutely nothing new in what I am saying. And it is much easier said than done, especially from the comfort of my American home.

[Bob Smalser]

... The next steps are more difficult. The Israelis have to start dismantling settlements. Sharon has already made huge progress in this direction with his plans for a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. It is this action that has established his bona fides with his neighbors. However, there's a limit to what he can do unilaterally. In response, the Palestinians need to establish a security force with enough critical mass of public support which will prevent terror attacks on Israelis. This will permit further Israeli withdrawal from the territories and opening of borders, etc.

If Hamas and the other Islamists can be moderated and brought into the political process, then the work will become easier and progress will be faster. If not, then there will either have to be something akin to a civil war among Palestinians, with the moderates getting their support from their neighbors, the US, GB and Israel, or else the status quo will remain.

Of course, there is absolutely nothing new in what I am saying. And it is much easier said than done, especially from the comfort of my American home. Yup.

That's why it's gonna take a tough guy to stand up to both sides.

Like Iraq, the violent extremists have to be killed off...they aren't going to be converted.

The real issue is often killing them off at a greater rate than your level of aggression makes new ones.

Simple....but the simple things are often very hard.

[George.]

Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
Like Iraq, the violent extremists have to be killed off...they aren't going to be converted.

The real issue is often killing them off at a greater rate than your level of aggression makes new ones.

I don't think they can be killed off, unless you kill off the population they live among. If your garden has ladybugs and roaches, there is no way to kill all the roaches without also killing all the ladybugs. Individual swatting will never get every roach, and spraying will kill all insects.

And of course, if you kill an innocent civilian for every demented terrorist, given that each civilian has lots of relatives and friends in a revenge-driven culture, you'll never get ahead.

On the other hand, maybe you can convince the population to not tolerate terrorists hiding among them anymore. It takes a lot more time and brains, and is a lot less satisfying, then just bombing and strafing them, but it might actually work in the long run.

Think about this: how many guerrilla movements were ever defeated by military force?

[Elco's]

If there is to be peace in the Middle East then butchers like Sharon have to be removed from the process.

Although everyone called Arafat a terrorist he did manage to rein in the more radical groups. When one looks at the discoveries made by the Americans at the funding provided by Sadam Husien the blaring question is...

"Why wasn't there more suicide bombings when such a support network was in fact in place."

Of course, any discourse on this subject that doesn't disintigrate into "Yeah, Rah, Israel" is automatically dismissed on the WBF.

For YEARS everyone has been calling for the removal of Arafat. WELL, Arafat is dead. SO WHY NOT PEACE NOW!?!

Simply put, peace is a bad economic situation for the Israelis and they will always, and HAVE ALWAYS found ways and/or excuses for blocking any successful peace method.

The unilateral move by the United States in backing a ground roots Palestinian Peace plan WILL CONTINUE without the interference of Sharon and his butchers.

[George.]

Originally posted by Elco's:
The unilateral move by the United States in backing a ground roots Palestinian Peace plan WILL CONTINUE without the interference of Sharon and his butchers.Elco's, could you send me some of the drugs you are on? They must be some GOOD SH!T! :D

[Scott Rosen]

Originally posted by George.:
On the other hand, maybe you can convince the population to not tolerate terrorists hiding among them anymore. It takes a lot more time and brains, and is a lot less satisfying, then just bombing and strafing them, but it might actually work in the long run.In order to do that, you first have to convince the population that they will be protected from terrorist retaliation. Unless you can change the minds and hearts of the terrorists (not too likely), you will have to protect the population by killing the terrorists and their leaders, before you can be in a position to do what you suggest. There's not an either/or solution. You can't avoid the use of violence if you want to eliminate the threat.

The question is this: how much violence will it take, and what is the best, most effective and efficient way to apply it?

[Elco's]

George. this is fact, even though you are obviously ignorant of it.

You 2 ,George. and Scot, miss the whole point. You remove the populations desire for retailiating by 1)not bull dozing innocent home owners 2) stop using military force to kill innocent bystanders. 3) stop using military force to steal land and up root familys.

The Israelis created a cycle that only the Israelis can stop. They have created a void in which terrorist acts against them alone gets thier attention.

[ 12-07-2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Elco's ]

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Elco's:

You 2 ,George. and Scot, miss the whole point. You remove the populations desire for retailiating by 1)not bull dozing innocent home owners 2) stop using military force to kill innocent bystanders. 3) stop using military force to steal land and up root familys.

The Israelis created a cycle that only the Israelis can stop. They have created a void in which terrorist acts against them alone gets thier attention.OH
MY
GOD!!!
I actually agree with something Elcos wrote! :eek: :eek: :eek: ;)

[Elco's]

MeerKat, you shouldn't be surprised, it is a universally agreed upon statement of fact.

Just as the Palestinians are seen in the universal light as being an "occupied people".

[ 12-07-2004, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Elco's ]

[Scott Rosen]

Who would've thunk it. Foote, you're a flaming liberal!

I'm intrigued by your thinking, but don't stop with Israel. You and Meer would both agree that the cause of Islamic "retaliation" against the US is 1) the US's support of brutal dictatators in Muslim countries, 2) the US's exploitation of Arab and Muslim natural resources, i.e., oil, 3) the continual US military presence in Arab countries, and 4) US support of Israel. If we simply do as Osama says and get out of that part of the world and stop threatening the security of Muslims, then the terror will stop. If we keep killing Muslims, as we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, then the terror and retaliation will only get worse.

Foote, that's what our French and German friends have been telling us for years.

For my own part, there is nothing more scary, and nothing that confirms the essential wrongness of an idea, then to see it espoused by both foote and meer. But that's just me.

[High C]

Originally posted by Elco's:
MeerKat, you shouldn't be surprised, it is a universally agreed upon statement of fact.
Hardly. :rolleyes:

You're rationalizing terrorism, FooteCo.

[Elco's]

First Mr. Rosen, my name is not Foote.

Second, the Palestinian people are recognised internationally as being occupied by the Israeli military.

Thirdly,the muslim population throughout the world recognises the "Iraqi killing fields" of Sadam Husien. You will take note that the "Fleeing millions" never occured following US invasion. There has been and continues to be a seperation of US and Israel whenever US policy on Iraq and Afghanistan, Iran, kawait, and Saudi Arabia comes to light....Israel is seen as a bastard child. Everyone knows it exists but it is unspoken of. The United States forgien policy is strictly "UNITED STATES FORGIEN POLICY" seperate from Israeli policy in ALL RESPECTS. This is a precedence set down by President Bush and continually reenforced by Colin Powell (previously quoted) and carried forward by Dr. Rice.

"anytime one critisizes Israel, one makes a judgement of a government and its policys. This critisism of government is not anti-semetic,and was never anti-semetic and cannot be deemed so."

I believe he removed YOUR biggest arguement. "That critisism of Israel is anti-semetic"

Colin Powell address the United Nations in that speech. He proclaimed to the world the seperation that the United States recognises exists between religion and government. "Echo"ing our founding fathers.

This IS the hands off approach. You need to up date YOUR thinking and stop trying to malign "Clinton era politics" with the new America.

[ 12-07-2004, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Elco's ]

[George.]

Elco's, I too actually agree with your post that Meerkat agreed with! :eek:

Scott, I understand your point. Terrorists intimidate the people they hide among. But how to solve that problem? Israel has been trying the harsh approach for what? twenty years, now? Look where it has gotten them. Look how they live. Do you wish that for America?

Why not look to cases where terrorist problems have actually been solved, like Britain with the IRA, or South Africa with the ANC, or even Italy with the Red Brigades?

[Elco's]

I believe the seeds of resolution are being sown in the Middle East today. As democracy comes to Afghanistan and Iraq, the Palestinians are uniting even more for a seperate DEMOCRATIC homeland.

I would not at all be surprised, in 4 years, to see United States Military troops stationed in the new Palestinian homeland as peace keepers to hold the Israeli butchers at bay.

Now, that may seem far fetched...but is it?
President Bush was the first American President to endorse a seperate Palestinian homeland. Unlike the Israeli model that created an "Aparthide State" controled by Israel, the "Road Map to Peace" meant a seperate DEMOCRATIC state. When he,GWB, stated that "liberty is on the march in the middle East", that includes the Palestinians. The one thing that the "liberal controled media" has accomplished....by constantly showing only the worst of Iraq, the American viewing public is becoming more and more insensitive to suicide bombers in Israel.....a shift of sympathies NEVER before seen. Car bombings in Iraq get more air time than bombings in Israel. A first.

The Palestinian push for a seperate homeland is a "grass roots" effort. Its direction is not through terroristic measures but is through a groundswelling of the Palestinians themselves and is a recognized effort. The continued harassment of this effort by the Israelis is also recognised.

[ 12-07-2004, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Elco's ]

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Scott Rosen:
You and Meer would both agree that the cause of Islamic "retaliation" against the US is 1) the US's support of brutal dictatators in Muslim countries, 2) the US's exploitation of Arab and Muslim natural resources, i.e., oil, 3) the continual US military presence in Arab countries, and 4) US support of Israel. I might agree to (1) and (4), but it's far less clear WRT the other 2 to me. (1) is a problem we have all around the world. As for (4) remind me please as to how support for Israel is in the US national/security interest?

IMO, Israel wants to turn the palistinians into second class "semi-citizen" workers. Economic slaves.

[Elco's]

IMO, Israel wants to turn the palistinians into second class "semi-citizen" workers. Economic slaves
----------------------------------------------------

I agree Meer, in fact, Israel's proposed peace agreement during the Clinton administration (when they unvieled the "green line" for the first time) created an "Aparthide" system. Whereby the Palestinian areas where surrounded by walls and "independantly governed by the Palestinian Authority". This was identical to what the white South African governement had created. The "green Line" is the actual wall being built by Israel today.

The world was aghast by the behavior of South Africa but seems to quiet about that same behavior by Israel.

[ 12-08-2004, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Elco's ]