More info on CPES

[Fingerlakes Boater]

Most have probably read this already, but for those who haven't....

FROM THE ROT DOC

CPES and Plywood
Test: 18 months outdoors on a walkway in Seattle, two winters and a summer.

Plywood used outdoors is highly vulnerable to water absorption, which can lead to delamination and rot. On decks, home siding panels, boat flooring and hulls, plywood deterioration is a common problem. Paints and common wood sealers can keep out the moisture temporarily, but paints/sealers vary in their ability to do this and they often open and crack and allow moisture into the wood. This can produce an "incubator" effect, the paint trapping the moisture and heat which promotes the development of wood delamination and rot. Fiberglass with polyester resin over plywood often produces the same result.

The application of CPES™ (Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer) to the wood after it has been cut and trimmed for installation significantly reduces the chances of delamination and rot developing.


Click on photos to see enlargements.
In conjunction with testing the coverage and durability of our new polyurethane coatings, we bought standard untreated 3/4" exterior grade plywood panels from Home Depot, treated them on all sides with one generous coating of CPES™ (except on the RHINO TOP section). The topsides were coated with various combinations of RHINO TOP, ELASTUFF 120, and UNIFLEX 255 Aliphatic. We then put the panels outside on a sidewalk where they were completely exposed to weather and foot traffic. This was done in Seattle, where there is lots of rain, some snow, hail and during the summer even some sun. The test sections cut from the panels that we show here (Image A, left) have been outdoors 18 months so far. Two winters and a summer as of October, 2002. They have not been cleaned or scrubbed.

Note that none of the treated edges (Image B) show even the slightest sign of deterioration or delamination. Even the low-grade plywood core material is intact and solid. If you press the plywood core with your thumb nail, it is hard. The discoloration is due entirely to weather exposure.

The raw cut edges of the panels in Image C (below) show that no significant amount of moisture penetrated into the plywood during the 18 month test period, on either the top or the bottom of the panel (Image D).

These panels are still currently being tested under rigorous conditions (light automotive traffic), and we will update these results again in 18 to 24 months.


Nothing will bond with wood better or longer than epoxy and no epoxy mix will penetrate wood better than CPES™. CPES™ is composed of a premium, wood-derived epoxy and a complex mixture of carrier solvents which carry the resin into the wood. The carrier solvents gas-off and leave the wood fibers encapsulated with epoxy resin. Any paint, varnish, epoxy resin or polyurethane can then be used as a final coating.

Coverage for CPES™ on plywood will be approximately 200-250 sq. ft. per gallon. Plywood edges should be treated generously.

If you plan to treat your plywood with CPES™, we recommend that you do not use chemically treated plywood. Most of the "treated" wood you buy is treated with chromated copper arsenate in a water and paraffin emulsion. The paraffin is to "waterproof" the wood, which it does, superficially, for a short while. Cut edges are still highly vulnerable to water absorption, and subsequent rot.

For more details on the 18 month polyurethane coating results, see the test section under Polyurethane Coatings.

Please feel free to call, fax or e-mail us
if you have any questions or wish to place an order.
Our business hours are 6 AM to 5 PM Pacific Time, Monday through Friday.






The Rot Doctor, Inc.
P.O. Box 30612, Seattle, WA 98113
Voice: 206.364.2155 Fax: 206.364.4744 E-mail: drrot@rotdoctor.com
© 2001-03 The Rot Doctor, Inc. All rights reserved.

[Jim H]

This was done in Seattle, where there is lots of rain, some snow, hail and during the summer even some sun.I want to live there! :D I'm guessing that the person who wrote that line isn't a member of the Seattle tourist board...

[NormMessinger]

Perhaps I missed it. Did they also test panels that were coated similairly but with out CPES along side? If not, no cigar!

[Fingerlakes Boater]

I believe that the purpose of the test was to show that CPES is an excellent sealer/primer, and that it will work with a variety of finishes.

[Fingerlakes Boater]

Well some may think that I own stock in The Rot Doctor. I think that this may be the greatest stuff out there for plywood hull restoration. The CPES product seems like a no brainer. Appling more water proof glue, to a glued up piece of wood already glued with water proof glue. How can you go wrong?? Then apply what ever finish/top coat you like and you set.

Better yet, this company not only produces undercoat and top coat to compliment their CPES product. They actually use it on their own boat. They may just be trying to sell the stuff, but they got me hooked.

For more info on their products for a new boating project, as well as restored vessels go to

http://www.rotdoctor.com/products/product.html

nuff said... :D

[Venchka]

Only problem is that the Rot Doctor is WAY! high. Rot Doctor is about 30% high if I remember my comparison shopping correctly.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Perhaps I missed it. Did they also test panels that were coated similairly but with out CPES along side? If not, no cigar!I'll have to agree with Norm here. I have three A/C plywood panels (bought at Lowes)that have been exposed to the elements for at least 2 years with no coating whatsoever and they have not warped or delaminated. Heck, I've even powerwashed them a couple of times.

[Fingerlakes Boater]

Venchka,

CPES is a proprietary product produced only by The Rot Doctor. CPES is only about 30% epoxy and 70% solvents. The high concentration of solvents allows the epoxy to "saturate" deep into the wood. It is the only product on the market to offer such a claim. CPES is not like conventional epoxy in that it does not claim to be an encapsulating epoxy. It is a wood sealer/primer offering the capability to penetrate and saturate wood with a premium epoxy resin.

Check it out at: www.rotdoctor.com/products/product.html (http://www.rotdoctor.com/products/product.html)

Yes you are correct, a little more expensive than you traditional epoxy. Then again its not your traditional epoxy.

[Fingerlakes Boater]

Jim,

You and Norm have made a valid point. Plywood will hold up without being treated with CPES, and only painted with a good quality marine paint. My hull has lasted 35 years with out CPES, presumably it is dougfir. It know has some rot and delaminating due to neglect by the previous owner. Had it been treated with CPES 35 years ago chances are that it would not have suffered due to the neglect it received. My point is, is that if you have the recourses to apply CPES, why not?? How can one say no to added protection???

[Jim H]

Originally posted by Fingerlakes Boater:
Venchka,

CPES is a proprietary product produced only by The Rot Doctor.I think Mr. Smith might dispute that:
Sith & Co., CPES (http://www.smithandcompany.org/more.htm)

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Fingerlakes Boater:
CPES is only about 30% epoxy and 70% solvents.And yet they're charging higher than epoxy prices (e.g., $75 per gallon) for something that is mostly a simple mixture of solvents costing $1 per gallon or less.

Mix your own...you'll save money.

[frameshop]

Before you pluck it down with the rot doctor, take a look over here:
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html

The man tells the truth. I have used West System, System 3, Maas, to build strip canoes, A Haven 12 1/2 (cold molded) and my last project which is shown being flipped today as "on her feet" pictures. He makes a gret product and if you thin it down as he suggests you get the penetration and sealing qualities you need. Roger

[Wild Wassa]

CPES appears to work well, I found it easy to use. I have used it on my boat that had 30 holes in her hull when I aquired Her. The boat is a marine 5 ply. When used on an old wreck, CPES works well. After reading this thread, it sounds like I may have used a good sealant.

It also sounds like CPES is a good sealant for new timber as well, I use it on new timber. Considering the Rot Docs ply is taking weathering and traffic, more than will ever happen to my old dinghy, maybe CPES is serious overkill, smile.gif .

Warren.

[ 01-20-2004, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Jim H]

Here's a couple of threads from the FAQ that you might find interesting:

CPES yes or no? (http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003129)
C.P.E.S. under epoxy, paint & varnish (http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004948)

[Venchka]

Time out.

Rot Doctor is selling Smith & Co. products.

I bought 3 gallons to go on my Caldonia yawl. Both the Rot Doctor and Star Distributing wanted $46/2 quart package. I called Smith & Co. and found a local paint store selling it for $29/2 quart package. By buying it in the samller containers, I have 2 quarts unopened left over for repairs or another project. The quart size containers are a lot easier to handle.

Do the math. Rot Doctor's price is high. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[NormMessinger]

Your are quite correct, Venchka. The only reason for me to buy from Rot Dr. is he takes master card orders while Smith does not.

CPES is like religion. If you think it saves your soul or sticks your paint you can live in eternal bliss.

[Fingerlakes Boater]

I would like to humbly retract my inaccurate statements regarding CPES/Rot Doc/Smith Co. I was ill-informed and apologize to anyone I offended. I was educated though by Frameshop's link to Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc. This is a must read for everyone interested or engaging in the CPES/penetrating epoxy debate. Quite informative...

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html

[Venchka]

There you go!

When you're right, you're right.

And Bob's my uncle!

[Venchka]

No worries, mate.

No debate for me. Like I said, there is 2-1/2 gallons of the stuff on most of my boat. I'll let you know if I like/dislike CPES in about 3 to 5 years.

[NormMessinger]

Don't apologize, Finger, it's a sign of weakness. Anyway, if all of us here apologized when we errored our host would have to get a bigger server, assuming we would admit it or even recogonize it.

Joy to ya.

[SAWDUST]

CPES can also be found on the eastcoast at www.jamestowndistributors.com (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com)

[paladin]

Just an observation.....To the best of MY knowledge, CPES is not available in Thailand and I never heard of it until getting on this forum...However...Many yards use MAS epoxy or the Thai equal readily available in Thailand. They use a small percentage of Xylene (5 % to 10%) to do a one coat pass on wood parts of boats, mine included. The average temp. in the building shed is 120 degrees to 125 degrees at midday when most folks are taking naps (lunch/nap break 11:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m.) so the wood going into the boat is quite warm, plus the boat cools at night and reheats during the day under a tin roof so sometimes the temp. can get up to 140-150 degrees in the shed when you drop the black plastic curtains.....kinda a neat way to autoclave the boat..without an autoclave. Perhaps that's why the wood/epoxy boats made in Asia do so well in the rest of the world......

[werner]

Hi,
I do not understand how wood based epoxy is a quality. ??Do not know if I am right since Never tried it myself but
has anyone tried the thinners for epoxy paint used as a primer for cars? if that works low viscosity slow hardening epoxy could perhaps be a lot cheaper??
regards ,werner

[Bob Smalser]

I heard that CPES cures cancer, too.

[daddles]

Come on boys. Lift your game. Previous discussions on CPES have resulted in two armed groups snarling at each other across a cleared deck. With this one, the armourers haven't even started sharpening the cutlasses yet.

[daddles]

Sorry for the above post. Haven't had my morning coffee yet. Perhaps it's the fumes from the epoxy I was daubing last night (glued a skeg onto a mouseboat).

A local firm markets something similar to CPES under their own name - it's called wood preservative or something generic like that, so generic I can never remember its name (can find out if a local wants to know). Slather it on the boat, wear a proper mask and do it outside on a day with a gale blowing - apparently the fumes are something to be believed. But it works a treat. Saturates and seals the ply ready for painting.

My point being, you don't have to fork out the cash for CPES if it's unobtainable or expensive in your area. Just check out some of the local epoxy suppliers. If we've got such a thing here in little old Adelaide (population 1m), similar products should be available elsewhere.

Mind you, I don't think anyone has ever argued against CPES as a timber sealant, it's only when we get into the area of rot repair that the wood chips start flying.

Cheers
Richard

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by daddles:
Come on boys. Lift your game. Previous discussions on CPES have resulted in two armed groups snarling at each other across a cleared deck. With this one, the armourers haven't even started sharpening the cutlasses yet.It's the new kinder, gentler WBF :D

Been down to the bilge lately? :D :D :D

[werner]

perhaps a new question but i wonder if cpes penetrates wood it will somehow seal the wood more or less effectifly , what if one uses it on a carvel build boat (on sound wood)as a primerpaint
1/some of it will run between the seams and glue the planks together;
2/used on dry wood will this not retard the planks seams sealing properly?
3/if the seams are more or less glued together what will happen if the planks move under strain?

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by werner:

... ... "has anyone tried the thinners for epoxy paint used as a primer for cars? if that works low viscosity slow hardening epoxy could perhaps be a lot cheaper??"

I presume you are writing about using a universal thinner? One thing that I'd do, would be to contact the epoxy manufacturer, and ask them. If the thinners are not reactive agents, the epoxy would be weakened in it's structure. People recommend using a denatured alcohol, like denatured ethanol as a thinner for epoxy, again just check with your epoxy manufacturer, that this is suitable for the epoxy you're using.

... ... "perhaps a new question but I wonder if cpes penetrates wood it will somehow seal the wood more or less effectifly , what if one uses it on a carvel build boat (on sound wood)as a primerpaint
1/some of it will run between the seams and glue the planks together;
2/used on dry wood will this not retard the planks seams sealing properly?
3/if the seams are more or less glued together what will happen if the planks move under strain?"

CPES is not a glue Werner, it is just a sealant, half of the working solution, are solvents. Also CPES is a very thin medium, ... it's not much thicker, than water.

Warren.

[ 02-03-2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]