Rotten Trim...

[BrianW]

Gents (and Ladies, as I'm not sure if any post here?)

Let me appologize now, for not knowing the correct terminology for many of the boat parts discussed here. My background is aircraft maintenance, not boat maintenance. I promise, once I learn the proper names, I'll use them in the future.

But, here is a piece of 'trim' that is rotting. There are a few more places like that on this boat.

I was wondering what is the usual way for fixing this sort of damage? I'd thinking of completely removing the rotten wood, and replacing it with new wood. Since the whole area is painted, matching the wood type and grain, etc. is not that important.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/p2d2def44f84e439ef507c6583dc6b120/fcc3d983.jpg

[mmd]

Yep, rippin' it up 'n' puttin' new down is what is in order. :(

[BrianW]

Thanks mmd.

About the terminology problem...

I followed the Coast Guard link provided in a seperate post, and found out that the piece in question is a 'rail cap.' Right?

Thanks, and any suggestions concerning what kind of wood to use for the repair, would be most appreciated.

[David N.]

Brian ,
I see red flag's , you did say you were thinking of buying this boat ?? .

Let's examine those red flag's ,
1.)it was a Navy boat ( 1940 era?? )
2.) double planked hull
3.) last syrvey ( by who ) in march of 00
4.) rot
5.) you dont know much about boat's

1.)Has the boat ever been re-powered ??
2.) when was the last time the gear boxe's were went thru ( or does it have reduction )
3.)what is the age of the other system's
4.)when were all the thru hull's replaced
5.)when was the wiring last checked
6.tank's when were they built and what is there status ( what material also )
7.) piping sys

You are an A&P , I would say this boat might be well beyond its TBO . No I have no intention of rushing up there and buying the boat , rather as a first project you may want to reconsider you choice . This might be the time to hold them , if the price of fish is tanked , then you might get a great boat ( minus the gear ) in good working order .

This is looking like a huge project , and you did say you were not rich , I would hate to see you ( or any one ) step into a project this size blind folded ,

[mmd]

Yessir, a railcap is what it is. Because railcaps usually get some pretty hard use, what with rubbing, chafing, things going "bump" on them, etc., hardwood is usually preferred over softwood, although this is not always the case. Also, because the railcap sort of provides a "roof" over the bulwark (solid railing) underneath it, a rot-resistant wood is usually preferred. Both of these suggestions are open to interpretation depending on the local boatbuilding customs in your area. High-ticket ya-a-achts have caprails of ($$)teak or mahogany, some use lesser expensive exotic or domestic hardwoods like sapele or ash, and close-grained good quality softwoods such as Douglas fir or Sitka spruce can also be used. My suggestion would be to hunt up a local boatbuilder who has a good reputation and ask him for suggestions, as he knows both what works in your climate and what is available on your local timber market. And, personally, I wouldn't finish the edges of the timber with the fancy ogees of the original unless you have to to match the other trim of the boat - the more complicated the shape, the more difficult it is to hold a finish and the more likely it is to hold water and rot. Looking at the fact the rot in the pieces is where the fancy edging is, I'd say that the fancy edge contributed quite a bit to the demise of the timber. A simple rounded edge is best, and a slight crown on the top surface will encourage rain to run off. A small v-groove about 1/8" deep and 1/8" in from the overhanging edge on the underside will encourage rainwater to drip off and not run along the underside of the railcap and into the seam between it and the bulwarks. Remember, moisture is your enemy and must be encouraged to get the hell off your boat as quickly as possible. :D

[John Blazy]

With my strange love of mixing fillers and fixing rot spots, I see this as a simple challenge, so machining new wood and scarfing in a 'dutchman' like MMD suggests is the best way, BUT, if you had to fix this existing rot I would:
- Get rid of the aluminum end grain plate as it is the source of the rot. Water gets trapped in there and creates the constant moisture that decaying fungi thrive on. The steel flange is also a culprit besides the obvious cracks in the paint - deal with it last.

- carve away all rotted "punky" wood, well into the good wood - use a ball mill in a drill, and/or a chisel, gouge, sharpened screwdriver etc. and sand existing flat surfaces down well

- Let dry in direct sun, or better, aim a fan at the area, or a low BTU propane torpedo heater at a safe distance - monitered closely.

- once dry, drench with CPES - clear penetrating epoxy sealer, and if you don't have that, heat the area real hot and drench with regular boat epoxy. The heat will lower the viscosity and draw it in deep.

- clamp/tape clear plexiglass to edges where the bead mold is on the top board, and particularly on the end where the aluminum plate was as a "form" to pour epoxy against. The reason for using clear plex, is so you can see the wood being filled so you don't miss any voids. Might want to caulk it in place.

- when the sealing epoxy is tacky, but not fully cured, mix up a batch of thickened epoxy - which is epoxy, silica (commercial thickener) and sanding dust or wood flour, mixed to peanut butter consistancy (chuck a threaded rod in a drill that has two nuts holding a 1-1/2" x 1/16" x 1/2" plastic or steel plate as a mixer) and trowel in the filler in the top voids in the bead molding, and pull away the clear plex on the end, trowel in the end grain, and replace the plex, pressing the goop into the voids. The plex will keep it from oozing out. Hit with heat gun to speed up cure if too runny. Do not remove the plex until FULLY cured 24 hrs at least. Will be hard to remove sooner.

- use body grinder to shape the bead mold back, rough up all other epoxied surfaces and coat with good marine primer and topcoat.

You could possibly get away with polyester automotive body fillers / sanding glazes, but they are not permanently waterproof, but in this above waterline application I'd do that. The big problem potential is that polyester body fillers shrink a lot upon cure and the tension will pull the "filling" loose over time. Epoxy won't shrink. Don't use anything that is a one part "outta the can/tube" system unless its PL Premium polyurethane (construction adhesive) which may also work here if the voids aren't too deep. Rebolt yer flange in a bed of silicone, and put wet epoxy into the bolt holes in the wood just before screwing down. - JB

[BrianW]

David,

I don't mind the 'red flag' questions at all. Your absolutely right about my lack of experience concerning wooden boats.

I can't answer all your questions now, but have written them down, so I can ask them myself. However, I do know that one gearbox (Twin Disc 'crash boxes') was replaced in 1999, and the other rebuilt. The engines (DD 6-71N's) were rebuilt in the last 10 years.

I'd like to post some pictures of various components and compartments, and let you folks take a look for yourselves. But I'm not sure that it would be appropriate here in this forum. If you think it would be okay, I'll start a new post with some of the pictures, with what details I can provide at this time.

The survey was done by a respected local surveyor. He does lot's of boats in town, including my current boat, but doesn't seem to specialize in wooden boats.

So I'm uploading pictures from my computer to the internet right now. Say the word, and I'll post them here.

Thanks again to all!

[BrianW]

John,

That was an excellent post on how to repair this rail cap. It took some time and thought, and if I decide to repair, rather than replace, I'll be using that information.

Thanks

[John Blazy]

No problem, BW. The concept is a no-brainer if you've done it before, but its amazing how many steps there really are.

[Mr. Know It All]

A 1940's Navy Boat? Yes,yes....post the pictures please. :D
Peace---> Kevin in Ohio

[Todd Bradshaw]

Real men may use square-drive screws, but very few of them bed hardware on wooden boats with silicone. Once you try to repaint a surface that's been contaminated with it, you'll know what I mean and keep that stuff as far away from your boat as possible. I'd suggest using real bedding compound.

[Middle Bay]

Post the pictures, please.

[videoguy]

we want pictures.....we want pictures......we want pictures...... smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif ..Phil

[John Blazy]

Good point Todd, as I should know better after years of seeing fisheyes at the mere mention of the word "silicone" within 500 feet of my spray booth. Modern waxes and polishes used near the rail can be just as bad. If you knew the silicone removal trick, refinishing is not as hideous as you may think. Mineral spirits is the solvent for silicone, so you pre-wipe the contaminated area with numerous wet cloths of it, throwing out each previous cloth to keep from spreading it around, then chase the remaining silicone molecules off with an ammonia/water solution, as silicone is attracted to ammonia. Then burn the boat if that doesn't work.
Easier to use the bedding compound you recommend.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Having rebuilt two or three boats where the previous owners had used liberal amounts of silicone, I have sometimes been able to wash it off (or in some cases, grind it off) but the thing that is most maddening is that unlike most other forms of contamination, you can't see it until it's too late. You also can't generally tell whether you've completely removed all the residue until a few minutes after you put down what you think is a nice, neat coat of paint. When the fisheyes finally do show-up, you're already in a heap of trouble.

[Mr. Know It All]

Silicone stinks too. Smells like old socks. :D