Making mast hoops- How to orient grain?

[Figmental]

I want to make some mast hoops out of some of what we call 'Paradise Trees", or Alanthus sp.?.
I've read where it makes good wood for wood boxes and such. My question is should I use quarter sawn strips or flat? I figure to saw them out of a fresh trunk and bend them while still wet.
Does anyone have any clues?

[Bob Smalser]

Flat.

[RonW]

FLAT GRAIN...............

[Bayboat]

Yep, yep, flat grain Ailanthus (also called "Tree of Heaven")should work well, although not as strong as oak or ash. You might have to steam for small hoops, e.g., 4-6 inches in diameter with the usual number of turns (laminates).

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Bayboat:
Yep, yep, flat grain Ailanthus (also called "Tree of Heaven")should work well, although not as strong as oak or ash.IMHO, Ailanthus altissima (Tree-of-Heaven) would be a lousy wood for mast hoops: in my experience, it's weak and, more importantly, it's brittle.

And I don't know if you've ever cut the stuff, but every part of the plant, when green stinks, something like putrid peanut butter.

Here's a link that talks about the wood.

http://project.bio.iastate.edu/trees/campustrees/Ailanthus_text.html

Ailanthus is classed in many states as a noxious, invasive weed.

It's primary commercial use is pulpwood.

[paladin]

and doesn't even make good firewood.....

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by paladin:
and doesn't even make good firewood.....Damn weed I got it all over. I'm always cutting them down. :mad:
Hate that damn weed :mad:

[RonW]

IMHO, Ailanthus altissima (Tree-of-Heaven) would be a lousy wood for mast hoops: in my experience, it's weak and, more importantly, it's brittle.

Sounds like all the reason in the world not to use it for mass hoops.

Why don't you get a nice piece of white oak or ash. Then split it by hand with a fro. Square it up on a saw and to adjust thickness use a hand plane. That way you have all flat grain running from one end to the other and use green wood. Then soak it in water with some ivory liquid and it will twist into a pretzel. That is how they make oak mast hoops. Rivet the ends together.

[Phillip Allen]

I would think Hickory would be excellent for hoops. Bends but won't break (easily). I use it for ram rods for muzzle loading rifles because it is tough to break.

[Figmental]

What grows in Arizona that I can find? I hear what you guys are saying and am open to otherwoods. I'll take a search around. How would black walnut be? We've got some of those. Also some sort of ash trees,
I have to disagree about Paradise trees and firewood. Thay make great firewood if they are aged for a year. That terrible smell disappears and they burn great. And, we've got lots of em.

[Krueg]

Finally, I know what that tree in my backyard is. I get saplings all over the yard and they grow very fast. The link says it's weak, brittle and easily storm damaged. This I can attest to. Lost a 30' limb not too long ago in Santa Anas that were gusting over 70mph.

[RonW]

How would black walnut be? Actually it is strange that you mentioned black walnut of all woods. Black walnut is rated as a very good bending wood, and about as good as any other wood in north america for rot resistance.
It would make a good boat building lumber, just a little pricey and not as available as other woods, due to the fact that so much has been used in years gone bye. Go for it.

[ssor]

Black walnut is pricey outside its natural growth area. In central Md. it is quite common and sometimes used as fence boards because of its strength and durability. I used it for the cabin sole in my boat.

[Lucky Luke]

Ash, ash, and only ash!

Ash does not make splinters. That is (besides other qualities) why it is favoured for tool handles, boat hooks ...and mast hoops. In the old days, going up the mast for oiling it was by using the hoops. They were afraid of the splinters from the mast itself, happily not from the hoops. It steams nicely too. But, most important for yachts, when it starts "wearing", it makes a kind of "fur" that will cause less damage to the mast.

So, why hesitate :confused:

Of course, if you plan to go further and have leather around the hoops, then the problem becomes entirely different....

[ 02-20-2005, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Lucky Luke ]

[Figmental]

I tried walnut first because I had a leftover pole but it had too many knots. A woodworker friend gave me some ash scrap and does it bend nice! Strips are 1/8x3/4x30" flat sawn for a 4" hoop.
Thanks again for the help, and to you, Luke, for your insistence and information on ash.
We're headed off for a couple of weeks in the Bight of Abaco
David
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/pdabd0497ff90f24c17adcb7322b2b563/f50c466e.jpg

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
That's lookijg pretty good David. What you could do now is to feather the outside edge as you've done with the inside one, then replace the bolt with a rivet (flat head nail, from the inside.) Traditionally, you'd use three or four rivets space equidistantly round the circumference. (Or more modernistically, you could glue all the laminations together instead.)

But there seems to be a bit of a gap between the laminations down around four o'clock, so I'd slacken the bolt (or remove it altogether) to let them slide round a bit for full contact. Then hold everything together with a clamp while you drill for the rivets.

Mike

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/public/masthoop.jpg
.

[Figmental]

You are right, Mike, that lamination does need tightening.
In looking at the photo you posted it looks like the hoops are tied directly to the sail. Was that usual? I like the no metal simplicity.
I imagine a line around the hoop, thru the sail eye, arould the hoop again, and back thru the eye to tie in a square knot with three overhands.
What would be better? Thanks,
David

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
The way you're describing it is right, David -- several turns of sail-twine are used to lash each hoop to a sail grommet. You leave just enough distance between sail and hoop that the ends of the lashing can be used to put a seizing around the turns before tying off.

The problem with this system is that to hand the sail completely you either have to cut all the lashings to do so (which necessarily leaves all the hoops still on the mast,) or you undress the mast altogether and thread the hoops off, taking the sail with them.

This second option can only be done in harbour and would typically occur only if you needed to do some maintenance on the mast.

And on those other occasions when you've cut the lashings you're later going to need to redo them. So what happens is typically what the photo shows -- the sail stays permanently attached to the mast, and either is, or isn't, protected from weather by a sail-cover when not in use. If you need to change the main for a stormsail when at sea, then the stormsail is set above the lowered main (which is not necessarily the best place for it because of the increased moment-arm for the wind force.)

(For small boats, it was the need to be able to completely hand the sail without undressing the mast or redoing all those sail lashings that caused us to produce our hinged masthoop.)

Mike