'how green is green'

[centroid]

Ok, I know it’s a topic that’s been discussed before (how green is green). I’ve read most of them with the research feature. But I’m still trying to decide on the moisture content of the white oak at the time of building. The boat will be a 24’7” Hess cutter. Probably 4 years before hitting water.

I would like some feed back on the best option between the two:
1) buy air-dried white oak from New England Naval Timbers. Higher cost of delivery, flight out to select timbers.
2) Buy from local mill. Cut green. Cheaper delivery cost, but start with green timbers. Or start doing other parts of the boat while timbers sit for 6 mo. Maybe start laminating frames first.

I don’t want to wait two years to start. I would like to start as soon as I get the timbers. Total b.f. approx. 640. Longest piece; keel; 18’6, others are under 10’ long, size vary from 6x12 to 12x 18.

[Bob Cleek]

Well, since wood always shrinks and swells across the grain and not lengthwise (except for redwood, don't ask me why... good trivia question), length isn't a consideration. BUT, your keel is going to swell back up to it's "wet" size when she's in the water. For this reason, I believe conventional wisdom favors using fairly green wood for a keel. Sure, over the building time, she'll shrink, but she'll swell back up when she's launched. You wouldn't want to cut a dry piece to fit just right and have it swell on you. However, while others may have more experience in this area, I'd say, "Don't make yourself crazy over it." Where are you? You may be able to get a mighty fine keel timber in your own backyard (figuratively speaking). For instance, if you are in the Northwest, you've got Doug fir and Garry oak which are just as good as eastern white oak and a darn sight cheaper close to home. Don't get hung up on just one wood. Find out what your local wooden boatbuilders use (or used). Chances are it is just fine. Some even say that wood cut close to where the boat lives is more rot resistant, but romantic as it sounds, that's probably BS. LOL

[Bruce Hooke]

When you are talking about timbers in the 6" and up range air-dry becomes a somewhat relative term. To really get a timber that size dry all the way through would take years. IIRC large timbers are considered "dry" in the lumber trade if the outer inch or two is reasonably dry. What I would do if I were you is buy the timbers locally. As you work the timbers coat any cut ends ASAP (we're talking hours here not days) to stop checking. After you have shaped the pieces coat them in some way (red lead is the traditional coating) to SLOW DOWN the drying process because, as Bob notes, once they are in the water they will swell back up, so your work will be easier if you can keep the timbers on the wet side so that they don't change size too much on you and make it hard to fit adjacent members to them. I suppose if the surface of the timbers is actually wet to the touch I might give them a month or so to dry because really wet wood can be a bit hard to work with in my experience, but beyond that I wouldn' sweat the issue too much. In any case, unless you are going to be working full time on this boat I'd guess that when it comes right down to it there will be plenty of things you will need to do before you can start shaping the keel and deadwood...for example, have you finished the lofting?

[Rich VanValkenburg]

I can only offer some personal experience with this based on the keel work in progress on the boat that owns me.(direct rip-off from the Cheoy Lee post)

The timbers that I'm using were cut in November '01 and I wrapped them in plastic to keep them from drying and checking. As I worked the forekeel, and since it was a multi-week project to cut and shape, I coated it with linseed oil and thinner and wrapped it back up every night. I put several good coats of red lead on before I installed it in May and no checks over the summer despite the heat.

The rest of the timber that was left is being used now for the sternpost and was still green when I opened it two weeks ago. If I was going to do anything different, I would coat it with anti-freeze to prevent mold.

Rich

[centroid]

bruce- i am lofting right now. there are plenty of things to do. i think i will consider buying them locally if i can get the size i need. if i don't, i thought about glueing up large timbers. Pardey glued pretty large size timbers in his book for dead wood. how dry do you think the timbers needs to be to glue with resorcinol ? is there any danger in movements when glueing large pieces that are not dried (20% or less) ?

rick- what is the mixture of your linseed and thinner ? i've heard about this anti-freeze, tell me more. is its purpose only to prevent mold ? is it harmful to work with ?

[Bruce Hooke]

I'm afraid I don't have any experience with resorcinol and wet wood... maybe someone else can speak to this. If you don't get an answer on this thread start a new thread just on that subject and I'm sure you will get some responses...

I know that with epoxy the recommended approach is to use dry wood in relatively thin layers (say 1" or less) to keep the movement of the wood from overpowering the glue joint; but I don't know if this also applies to resorcinol.

[Rich VanValkenburg]

There's been lots of talk around here about the benefits, or lack thereof, of antifreeze. It's a source of borate (read the label) which works as a fungicide. As far as being bad for ya, heck, seems everyday they tell you about something else that's bad for ya.

As for the mix, I think it's been mentioned here that a 6 : 1, oil to thinner ratio was about right. I don't get that scientific. I just use an empty white butter tub and pour in about 3/4" of oil, and then add enough thinner to make it paintable with a foam brush. Every time I work with the piece, I coat it a couple times when I'm finished, heavier on the end grain.

Lot's of stuff here in the forum is professional advice, some other stuff is practical experience that worked. I suppose I fall into the later category.

Rich