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ishmael
11-14-2002, 08:55 PM
Why do we lose our friends? How many I've known who are just gone, distance, time.

Why are we estranged from the places and times that brought us comfort?

Why can't I begin to speak to my siblings?

Why are attempts to heal these wounds routinely rebuffed?

Oh I can hear the dribblers of psycho-babble talking, it is my fault, look to yourself you sick puppy.

What if they are way wrong? What if it ain't my fault, but that of an un-imaginative society?

Why?

Hughman
11-14-2002, 09:04 PM
You Can't Go Home Again

by Thomas Wolfe

gunnar I am
11-14-2002, 09:14 PM
elaborate on unimaginative society.

Joe (SoCal)
11-14-2002, 09:22 PM
We are your brothers ishmael

[ 11-14-2002, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

Meerkat
11-14-2002, 09:24 PM
(Joe may be your sister ;) )

Scott Rosen
11-14-2002, 09:25 PM
Why?

Because there are new friends to be made, new places of solace and comfort to be found. Because to move forward is to live, backward is to die. Because we learn better from mistakes. Because if love were easy and cheap, then it wouldn't be worth a damn.

Joe (SoCal)
11-14-2002, 09:27 PM
Man a guy wears a dress one day in his life and no one lets go of it :D I know I look pretty but get over it guys tongue.gif

OOOF GOOD ONE SCOTT I LIKE THAT WAY OF THINKING, YES !!!!

[ 11-14-2002, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

rodcross
11-14-2002, 09:33 PM
The Eternal Why! Oh Man!

Ishmael, Winter has only just begun in your part of the world and you'll still look like you just crawled out from under a rock in the middle of next June. Its a harsh Winter and seminary is going to make a major mess out of your psyche for the next year, or so.

(I am not kidding on that particular topic, though it may appear I am trying to be humorous.The first year or two at seminary can be a very dangerous place. In New Haven, if suicides or attempted suicides get into the papers, at all, its an even chance that its a divinity school student. Put the same body of students in rural Maine in the middle of Winter and you'd have an epidemic.)

Road Trip!...Anything to get perspective. Built an outdoor sauna...Then use it! Come to Mystic on 12/7, though I doubt there will be much perspective to be had there.

As to the answers to the whys? One of the clues to the answers is that they are pondering the same questions.

Joe (SoCal)
11-14-2002, 09:40 PM
ishmael listen to rodcross and come to Mystic I hear ya seminary students can drink . It would be fun I think a few people from your neck of the woods are coming.

LisaS
11-14-2002, 10:56 PM
Why? Because we can't choose our dysfunctional family members, but we CAN choose our friends, and hopefully surround ourselves with people that are a positive influence on our lives. Hopefully, we can be a positive influence on their lives as well. Life is waaaaay too short (this I know for fact) to worry about why our whacked out family members are the way they are. It's much more productive to put that energy into fostering good relationships with people that appreciate you for who you are.

C'mon down to CT in December!

Lisa

LeeG
11-15-2002, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by ishmael:
Why do we lose our friends? How many I've known who are just gone, distance, time.

there is a beginning a middle and an end

Why are we estranged from the places and times that brought us comfort?

get in the company of people that aren't an estranged we,,connect to primitive forces, comfort is passing as is pain.

Why can't I begin to speak to my siblings?

got me on that one, why bother?

Why are attempts to heal these wounds routinely rebuffed?

because the wounds are yours not theres to process your healing.. maybe you need to find some new wounds.

Oh I can hear the dribblers of psycho-babble talking, it is my fault, look to yourself you sick puppy.

turn the tv off, pick up Alan Watts and turn off Dr.Phil, "yourself" isn't enough, don't look there

What if they are way wrong? What if it ain't my fault, but that of an un-imaginative society?

ok, but I'm still worried about how people will travel to Mars as the calcium loss will be huge.
um, ok that's not helpful,,maybe right/wrong and fault has nothing to do with what's bugging you. errr,,"unimaginative society" 10 yrs ago I was sure the US was heading into a spiritual re-birth because I was going through a divorce and death of a parent...oops wrong again,,it is me.

Why?Now!

Chris Coose
11-15-2002, 07:33 AM
These are a few of the principles which I practice to answer those questions

http://www.heartlandsangha.org/parallel-sayings.html

http://www.edepot.com/dhamma3.html

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/default/en_about_aa_sub.cfm?subpageid=17&pageid=24

ishmael
11-15-2002, 08:15 AM
Thanks Chris, nice links.

And his disciples asked him about this kingdom of god, saying, "Where is this place you keep talking about?"

"The kingdom is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it."

Thomas

Greg H
11-15-2002, 08:23 AM
Time passes
Things change

Then again, there is only now. No one goes away, there is nowhere to go. We are all out here somewhere, dead or alive.....back to the barda!

Alan D. Hyde
11-15-2002, 09:03 AM
One can't wade into the same river twice.

Alan

LeeG
11-15-2002, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:
One can't wade into the same river twice.

AlanAlan, that is a good one. Where's that from?

Roger Stouff
11-15-2002, 09:44 AM
"What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset."
-- Crowfoot, Blackfoot warrior and orator

"I have seen that in any great undertaking it is not enough for a man to depend simply upon himself."
-- Lone Man (Isna-la-wica) Teton Sioux

Don Olney
11-15-2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by LeeG:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:
One can't wade into the same river twice.

AlanAlan, that is a good one. Where's that from?</font>[/QUOTE]Heraclitus

http://www.thebigview.com/greeks/heraclitus.html

Ed Harrow
11-15-2002, 11:55 AM
And he answered, saying:
Your friend is your needs answered. He is your field which you sow with love and reap with thanksgiving. And he is your board and your fireside. For you come to him wiht your hunger, and you seek him for peace.

When your friend speaks his mind you fear not the "nay" in your own mind, nor do you withhold the "ay." And when he is silent your heart ceases not to listen to his heart; for without words, in friendship, all thoughts, all desires, all expectation are born and shared, with joy that is unacclaimed. When you part from your friend, you grieve not; for that which you love most in him may be clearer in his absence, as hte mountain to the climber is clearer from the plain.

And let there be no purpose in friendship save the deepening of hte spirit. For love that seeks aught but the disclosure of its own mystery is not love but a net cast forth; and only the unprofitable is caught.

And let your best be for your friend. If he must know the ebb of your tide, let him know also its flood. For what is your friend that you should seek him with hours to kill? Seek him with hours to live. for it is his to fill your need, but not your emptiness. And in the sweetnes of friendship let there be laughter, and sharing of pleasures. For in the dew of little things the heart finds its morning and is refreshed.

Kahlil Gibran

I don't know that this answers your question, but it addresses your need.

ishmael
11-15-2002, 06:33 PM
I met a carpenter last night
And asked him of his soul,
Cherry oak and walnut he laughed
Carved into a bowl.

It cradles me so softly
Makes me feel at ease
So before I pass beyond
I can live just as I please.

One dark night, the men arrived
Asking for their due
I sneered a bit of spit in their eye
Said stand up, take a view.

The world sinks low around you
An end perhaps ensues,
And you, you lousy bastards
Have the balls to ask for dues.

I left your world before this
I've long since shed my tears
For those who trod so blindly
And live on people's fears.

Now I give my talents
Meagre though they be
And people who see my work
Know that I am free.

And though that freedom is bounded
By stone walls made by you
My soul is made of hardwood
Which will last when you are through.

I smiled at the woodman
He must have felt I knew
That what he once had suffered
Was what I now felt too.

I mused a thought of freedom
There before this priest
As thoughts must touch condemned men
The hour before their feast.

And I wished him luck that cold dark night
For he had known hard times
As men so often do
Who shape hardwood and ryhmes.

Jack Heinlen 1980

[ 11-15-2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

rodcross
11-15-2002, 07:32 PM
Ishmael,

You have to get out of there. Soon!

Give it a break!

You may be in the right place, for the long haul.

As I said earlier: Its a dangerous place. Pondering questions over which you have no power to answer or change is a formula for disaster unless you have a constitution of iron and you do not sound like one of those.

I'm a little worried.

ishmael
11-15-2002, 08:08 PM
rodcross,

I appreciate the concern, I very much do. And I will get out of here soon.

I am eating a can of New Brunswick sardines, in olive oil, on nice crackers, and am shortly going to bed. Let the problems bleed into the night.

My best,

Jack

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-15-2002, 08:35 PM
Jack, I dislike this time of year. It gets dark and so do I. Looking inward is a good thing, but too much of it leaves corners that perhaps should not be disturbed. Not everything in life is meant to be understood or accepted. I used to have a serious alcohol and drug problem. Over eleven years ago I decided to stop the way I was living and live another way. It was very tough, because I didn't know how to live as a decent caring human being. It took a lot of learning to get this far, and I need to learn a lot more. My life consisted of a completely different set of values, friends and activities for the most part. A lot of those old friends are dead and in jail now too. Anyway, without droning on and on, My life is a lot better now, and I'm grateful for what is, and I couldn't even say exactly what happened back then, because I don't understand all of it.. and I don't think I am supposed to. Winter is only a season, and it is inevitably followed by spring. I keep a little bit of my boat alive in the dark season with the smell of varnish, and the sawdust off the sander, still waiting patiently for the smell of the water to come up through the ice.

Chris Coose
11-16-2002, 07:54 AM
Ish,
I've heard plenty good about Bangor Theological Seminary.
I'm thinking these kind of questions are supposed to rise up as a part of your curriculum.
You are exactly where you are supposed to be and I suggest that you hang in there.
How long was Christ in the desert? 30 days?
How long did the Buddha sit under the bodhi tree? 7 days?
Relative to a Bangor winter, you should be coming out of there prety godamn spiritual, I'd say.

I spent 18 winters on Mount Desert Isl. and the bride spent 4 Bangor winters. We had to head south. How do you think Steven King finds his inspiration but in a grey cold November morning such as this. Being from there helps some.

If respite is necessary, we've got a nice futon downstairs in the nicest little city in the world.

Hughman
11-16-2002, 03:10 PM
This sounds an awful lot like a bout of Seasonal Affective Disorder...
http://www.inspiredcounseling.com/SAD.htm

SAD but true :(

[ 11-16-2002, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Hughman ]

Scott Rosen
11-16-2002, 03:48 PM
I agree with you, Hughman.

Alan D. Hyde
11-18-2002, 09:37 AM
Life's a day
That flies away,
Though run the sun
We after.

I'll spend it then
With work and song,
With Maggie, and
With laughter.

ADH 1973

seafox61
11-21-2002, 05:35 PM
Ishmael
What Redcross said earlyer reminded me of what my mother said about our state mental hospital, " about half of the people there are return missionarys who simply can not readjust to normal life
I can not think of helpfull words so much as to try and say how much I value as afroiend and some one of great wisdom
I have just bought two books of Vin Suprynowicz. who writes for a paper in las vegas nevada . the second one is called the "ballad of carl drega." about people who have resisted our tyrranical government I look forward to reading but fear it will also depress me more

as to why friends drift away if that it takes time and energy old friends who have already invested huge amounts of T&E may set on self just fine and resume at any time newer friends with out the reserve of T&E noted above and with the drain of current friends work and dreams do not leave time and energy for older friends. the comment above that noted to go forward is to live to look back is to die has something.
we are limited to 24 hours a day and some finite amount of energy. I have been married for two years. I have not built a single boat in that time. I have bult one 30 by 16 foot shed I have hardly visited any of my family . he famile live 4 hours drive east. my wife does not like driving and so absolutely freeks if I sugest we make a day trip out there ( proable she is right I had to go get a tractor from my father inalw who I had loaned it too. I finished work at 7 am took till 11 to prep the trailor arrived at 3 in vernal took till 6 to get the tractor loaded then it was 7 hours home pulling 4000 pounds more than my truck is leagle for . when t came time to start down the mountian I first tried it in second gear ( 15 mph in an old 4 speed manual trans ford) but could not stand the screaming engine so shifted to third and hung on even at 35 mph it was a long trip)

every choice of activity holds as forgone cost of lost opertuity.
My only solution is to sleed less as I have with my night time paper route I deliver monday through friday mornings usually about 2 to 6 am today is thirsday and I hit the wall ended up sleeping all day I am mad at myself for wasting a good day and understand at the same time
hang in there the counrty and this form need you. I think you are one of the " rocks of sanity that form the stability of socity" to paraphrase Phil Bolger

jefery bybee

JimD
11-21-2002, 10:36 PM
I remember a tv commercial a few years back that suggested the chicken crossed the road because the bar on the other side had a budwieser sign in the window

cs
11-22-2002, 06:48 AM
Ishmael I just pulled an old thread of mine out of the celler for you to read. This is probably from the time you were in hiatus.

Chad

p.s. It is called "Where did they go?"

[ 11-22-2002, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: cs ]

joejapan
10-28-2005, 11:45 PM
.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same." - some philosophical guy

Phil Heffernan
10-29-2005, 12:00 AM
I just have to say this, and I'll probably say it again:

We already are in Heaven, like it or not...where else can these moments under a blue sky be felt, in the entire universe?

Being thankful is the best medicine...

Phil

ishmael
10-29-2005, 12:18 AM
Jaysus, son of gawd and sweet mother mary, who dredged this one up? Not that it's unworthy. A few things I'd word differently, but it remains a pretty good question. Three years down the road.

I think I'm turning more and more Buddhist.

"Trouble, life is trouble, only death is not."

Zorba

Wild Wassa
10-29-2005, 02:01 AM
" ...as to why friends drift away ... "

Given enough time they get to see who we really are. Ask any psychologist.

Warren.

[ 10-29-2005, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

joejapan
10-29-2005, 05:18 AM
.
"..Me too neither.....hmmmuuh ! " :D

LeeG
10-29-2005, 05:45 AM
visited my dad who sits in a cave like apt. of detritus. His friends and family didn't drift away, he didn't maintain the friendships. Last I saw him he was holding a radio and staring at it with deaf ears. Why? you got to be effing kidding.

Sea Frog
10-29-2005, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by LeeG:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:
One can't wade into the same river twice.

AlanAlan, that is a good one. Where's that from?</font>[/QUOTE]Heracleitos.

LeeG
10-29-2005, 01:34 PM
tellit

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-29-2005, 06:30 PM
I used to look at my Dad when I was young and wonder about his friendships, how they started and so on. Some of his friends were really cool, mechanical people, who made jewelry, or built houses, or welded. My dad was in computer research even back in the early sixties, but he was an engineer by schooling, so I guess these were kindred spirits. When he married my stepmother, all those people seemed to disappear. I know why, but that's not what this thread is about.

I try to keep in touch with old friends... like the ones I had in public school. I have a superb memory going as far back as about 3 years old (which is when they say long term memory skills develop). Sometimes when I phone old friends I understand that it is I that still remembers, and not them. Still, we usually have a few things to talk about, and I genuinely wish them well... I still miss them sometimes. I think everyone gets busy... with wives and families and jobs and mortgages and so on... and we don't have the luxury of school yard time for friends perhaps. A sad commentary, since at the end of our lives what we worked at, and how much money we made, or the size of our house, won't be the things we consider as the light fades. ;)

As for family... well. :( I guess we grow up, and sometimes very differently. For me, I have had to cast off the dysfunctional methods my family used to interact, and so has my sister. She and I are still quite close, but my stepmother has fractured our relationship with our father. It bothers me, but I have no power over the problem. Relationships are complicated, and it would be better if they were simple. We all have so many expectations and conditions in our relationships, when being friends should be a simple, easy thing.

[ 10-29-2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm Jardine ]