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Don Olney
09-11-2001, 08:24 AM
This just in. From my office in midtown, I can see a huge column of smoke billowing from the WTC. It looks awful. All local internet news servers are jammed.

--Don


BREAKING NEWS
Planes Crash into World Trade Center

By Amanda Barrett
Newsday.com

Two planes crashed into the World Trade Center this morning, sending black
smoke and pieces of the building billowing through the air.

Eyewitnesses said it was a big plane that hit the building.

"It was a big plane, maybe a 747," exclaimed witness Tony Arrigo, who was taking garbage out of the building when he saw the incident. "...Gotta be somebody killed. Those poor people are in there

[This message has been edited by don olney (edited 09-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by don olney (edited 09-11-2001).]

ken mcclure
09-11-2001, 08:37 AM
2 planes. Airliners. 737's, 757, or airbus. 1 into each building. Last I've heard is one was American Airlines en route from Boston to LA.

I am SO disappointed in humanity at this point and grieve terribly for everyone involved or affected by this. I don't pray much, but I'm praying now.

I believe very much in an eye for an eye. My personal opinion is that when we find the nation responsible for this, we simply level one of their cities.

God help us all.

Ed Harrow
09-11-2001, 08:45 AM
What sickness travels in the circles of humanity.

Of course, clinically, how'd they do it...

And the Pentagon, too?

[This message has been edited by Ed Harrow (edited 09-11-2001).]

Don Olney
09-11-2001, 09:09 AM
One of the towers has just collapsed. An enormous cloud of white smoke has covered south Manhattan and is spreading north toward 34th street.

--Don

Matt J.
09-11-2001, 09:10 AM
Pentagon, White house evacuated, fire on the Mall, Tower collapsed, capitol and treasury bldgs evacuated... I'm with Kw. I've got friends in these places, and a coworker's wife in the capitol.

My kid brother's not too far from this BS.

rrrr...

Scott Rosen
09-11-2001, 09:24 AM
The price we are paying for our freedom is dear. God bless the victims and their families and bring them peace and healing.

Let's stop calling this terrorism and call it straight. It's an act of war and it's butchery. Those so-called terrorists enjoy the protection and funding of nations and governments. Right now, millions, if not hundreds of millions, of people are celebrating joyously and calling for more of our blood.

Americans will not tolerate the sight of their cities burning and innocent civilians being murdered.

Scott Rosen
09-11-2001, 09:26 AM
I was born in NYC, grew up within a few miles and I have friends and family who live there and work in and near the WTC. I can't even begin to explain what it does to me to watch this unfold on our office television.

paladin
09-11-2001, 09:45 AM
I'm too old for this crap...dammit...and I just got a telephone call saying they may be recalling me for training so don't leave the States......I did this crap for 35 years and now it's time to stay home with sweet thing. This is what cost me two marriages...being gone to some God-forsaken place taking care of "PROBLEMS". I'm too damn big to hide in closets and I can't run as fast as before. I say capture the S.O.B's alive, Wrap them in pigskins and bury them in some far anonymous place alive to rot. None of this fast bullet fron 1000 yards away crap so they can become Martyrs....remember Che Gueverra.......

martin schulz
09-11-2001, 09:58 AM
All right then - who is the one in charge?

Unfortunatly, no matter how Bush is crying out for revenge there will be no one responsible Person or country to punish Scott. As for wraping the S.O.B. in pigskins (paladinsfo) those S.O.B.s already died in the planes. No way to prevent that kind of terrorism, no way to punish the doers.

You (USA) as well as the rest of civilized world is helpless. The answer lies not in revenge.

dasboat
09-11-2001, 10:00 AM
It is hard to imagine the rightousness behind this kind of hatred.I am saddned and angry at the same time.
Don were you watching as the towers came down?Where are you relative to the towers?

News in Cal.has two american airlines ships hyjacked,one a 767 the other unknown.Another aircraft into the pentagon with explosives on board.

If this giant is awakened,and I hope we are,an end can be put to this.
God save us from ourselves.

paladin
09-11-2001, 10:10 AM
I refer to the S.O.B.'s that initiated this project..........and their immediate followers........and to include those who financed it......straight out of Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia........

Ed Harrow
09-11-2001, 10:13 AM
Planes Crash into World Trade Center, Pentagon

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By Mae Cheng and Amanda Barrett
Staff Writers


In a horrific act of apparent terrorism, two planes crashed into the upper levels of the World Trade Center as the workday started this morning, collapsing both towers and sending debris throughout lower Manhattan and tremendous black smoke billowing throughout the city.

Another plane hit the Pentagon in Washington shortly thereafter. In Washington, there were reports of explosions on Capitol Hill and at the State Department. A fourth plane crashed in Pittsburgh. The number of injuries and deaths were unknown.

New York City, and many locations throughout the nation, was upgraded to a full terrorism alert as rescue workers tried frantically to evacuate some 50,000 workers at the twin skyscrapers, one of the most recognizable structures in the world.

All U.S. military bases throughout the world are also on full alert.

In what President George W. Bush termed "an apparent terrorist attack," two planes hit each tower of the center around 9 a.m., sending black smoke and pieces of the building billowing through the air. Sources said the first plane was a commercial American Airlines 767 that had originated in Boston, and the second was a 737 United Airlines that had taken off from Westchester Airport.

“Terrorism against our nation will not stand,” Bush said in a nationwide address shortly after the first two crashes and before the White House was evacuated.

The first crash came at 8:50 a.m., a Boeing 767 that had been hijacked from Boston this morning, hit Tower 1. The names and number of passengers on the plane headed to Los Angeles were not available.

The crashes left gaping holes in the once majestic Twin Towers. But within two hours both buildings crumbled.

There were reports from witnesses of bodies falling out of the buildings as emergency workers tried to clear people out of the area normally packed with employees of many of the large financial firms.

All New York area hospitals were on alert to treat patients. But it was nearly two hours before the injured started arriving at the hospitals.

All Fire Department workers were called in, including those on vacation or off duty.

From all over Lower Manhattan, the plane crash could be seen and its tremble felt.

Newsday.com editor Diane Goldie watched the crash from her Duane Street apartment.

"I was in the kitchen when a great boom shook the building. I looked out and saw construction workers running away. There were two holes on the north and east sides of Tower 1. Red-orange flames were shooting into the air and thick, black smoke was billowing over the tower," she said.

"Part of the building flew through the air. It looked like confetti raining down on Church Street."

A second plane hit Tower 2 at about 9:05 a.m., sending flames and smoke billowing from that part of the World Trade Center.

It was a chaotic scene, according to Brenda Velasquez, who was at the buildings. "Brooklyn Heights is crowded, Pearl Street and the World Trade Center area is packed with people. Also choppers are flying overhead," she said.

All New York City airports have been closed, in addition to all tunnels and bridges into Manhattan. All subways and buses in lower Manhattan have been shut down. And all city school children are being kept in class.

Before the towers crumbled from the crash, workers in the financial district were evacuated to the lower levels of their office buildings and were kept indoors for safety.

"People looked like ghosts walkng down Church Street covered in soot," said Goldie. Many were dazed or screaming as officials urged everyone to get as far north as possible.

Stan Siegel lives on the 48th floor of an apartment building on Duane Street. “I saw the building collapse. I saw people jumping out of the building. I saw bodies flying out of the building. It was horrendous," he said, wiping a tear from his eyes. "This is world war.”

Phone lines throughout New York City were jammed as concerned family and friends reached out to those who they thought might be in the area. The World Trade Center was the object of a terrorist bombing attack in 1993 in which six people were killed.
Copyright © 2001, Newsday, Inc.

Don Olney
09-11-2001, 10:13 AM
I am at 56th Street and Fifth Avenue, 46th floor. Just after the crashes, the smoke was obviously emanating from some hundreds of feet above the ground. Then, sometime later, somebody in the office yelled that they collapsed. The cloud became larger than anything I have seen since Mt St. Helens. Huge and white and spreading out. Light wind is pushing it generally toward Brooklyn Heights. You cannot see the towers through the massive cloud of smoke. The white smoke of the collapse has subsided somewhat and is now an ugly grey black smoke, the sign of a huge fire, billowing upward.

I have seen fighter aircraft passing overhead at about 7500 ft.

Beowolf
09-11-2001, 10:16 AM
...and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us...

How much can be asked of us though?

There are 24 students who will remember me because they were in here when they heard the news. Nothing could make me sadder.

Jeff Hackborn

[This message has been edited by Beowolf (edited 09-11-2001).]

dasboat
09-11-2001, 10:19 AM
We could very easily re visit the awful predjudice and fear that rationalized internment for the japanese.I hope we are smarted than that now.
This type and scope of operation will have a nation or two as a sponsor,tacid or direct.

Now if our elected representatives will can the trash talking and get down to business w/o spin I will be much more at ease.

Ed Harrow
09-11-2001, 10:20 AM
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=461478&a=10723818&p=54045611

dasboat
09-11-2001, 10:23 AM
I understand another explosion w/o known cause has occurred at camp david.(local radio )

Rich VanValkenburg
09-11-2001, 10:23 AM
There will be time to discuss who to blame and who to retaliate against, later.

But now, a prayer is in order for all of those who've died and their families who will feel the loss. Also for those who have yet to die, since I have a sickening feeling that this isn't over yet.

martin schulz
09-11-2001, 10:23 AM
Why not Cuba, China, Russia?

Not that easy - there is no more solitary evil-country to punish.

Let's go and bomb Bagdad, Teheran, Jerusalem (there are innocent non-palastinians living there?).
How about the innocent people living in the other cities? Just plain citizens who might be indoctrinated but still innocent of the crimes their leaders are guilty of.

Don't understand me wrong, this is a tragedy, not only because of the people who died, but also because of the careful planned terror it creates. And it's not plain coincidence that it took place at a time where not so many people were working. Imagine this tragedy during business hours.
The goal was not to kill as much people as possible.

Just heard that Arafat condemned the act.

Mike Field
09-11-2001, 10:40 AM
We Aussies are with you in spirit at this quite-dreadful time. You have our thoughts, our prayers, and our hopes.

Ed Harrow
09-11-2001, 10:44 AM
By Beth Gardiner
Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001; 11:04 a.m. EDT

LONDON –– Astonishing terrorist strikes in the United States quickly reached a global audience Tuesday, with many around the world watching live coverage of an aircraft hitting the World Trade Center.

Audiences were transfixed by the awful images from New York, where both World Trade Center towers collapsed.

Key indexes sank on world stock markets and some European airlines canceled flights to the United States and recalled planes already in the air.

Russian President Vladimir Putin expressed his condolences to the American people over the terrorist attacks, calling the "terrible tragedies," the Kremlin press service said.

"This mass terrorism is the new evil in our world today," said Prime Minister Tony Blair, who canceled a speech at a trade union conference. "It is perpetrated by fanatics who are utterly indifferent to the sanctity of human life, and we the democracies of this world are going to have to come together and fight it together."

President Jacques Chirac of France, in a nationally televised statement, called the attacks in the United States "monstrous" and expressed his solidarity with the American people.

"France has just learned of these monstrous attacks, there is no other word for it, that have hit America," Chirac said from Rennes, in the western region of Brittany.

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and his top aides followed the events at his seaside office in Gaza City, gathered around a TV set.

"I send my condolences to the president, the government and the people for this terrible incident," Arafat said. "We are completely shocked. It's unbelievable."

In Berlin, Foreign Ministry officials huddled in a crisis meeting, and Parliament's vice speaker vice speaker Anke Fuchs told lawmakers a "terrible catastrophe" had happened.

Virtually all German TV channels switched to live coverage. "This is pure mass murder," one commentator said.

Scandinavian Airlines System, SAS, rerouted three airplanes bound for New York and one for Washington from Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

Flights to the United States were suspended from Portugal, and the Belgian airline recalled two flights on the way to the United States, diverted others to Canada and canceled all planned flights to the United States.

In Thailand, Suranand Vejjajiva, a spokesman for the office of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said they were watching the news in disbelief.

A spokesman for Philippine President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo said: "The president has been monitoring the events since an hour ago and she condemns what is obviously the worst terrorist attack on a leader of civilized society."

Broadcasters around the world broke into programming to show images of the disaster.

"It's incredible. I thought I was watching a Hollywood movie," said Hong Kong school teacher Doris Tang.

© Copyright 2001 The Associated Press

United Airlines confirms flight from Newark, N.J., to San Francisco crashed near Pittsburgh.

REPORT: Plane was headed to Camp David. Anniversary of Camp David Accord Sept 5-17, 1978...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




[This message has been edited by Ed Harrow (edited 09-11-2001).]

Boyd
09-11-2001, 10:45 AM
Martin,

This did occur during buisness hours. Preliminary reports are that as many as 10,000 workers are in each tower during a typical buisness day.

Alan D. Hyde
09-11-2001, 10:49 AM
I have no more actual knowledge of causation than do any of you, and possibly less than some.

However, if forced to guess, I would suspect that this can be traced at least in part to money and other support from Saddam Hussein.

We should have gone all the way to Bagdad, and finished the job (that is, removed Saddam from power). This type of terrorism must not be tolerated, and should have been--- and should now be--- extinguished at its source.

Alan

martin schulz
09-11-2001, 11:01 AM
Boyd
CNN says that it took place shortly before 9AM and that the builing and the surrounding area was luckily not in full business manner.

I am not making things up just to be objective.

My grief goes to all the victims and to all people that die. It goes to the USA today but also today and tomorrow everywhere in the world.

When will all this killing for political, economical, racial reasons or plain desinterest end?

Mike Field
09-11-2001, 11:04 AM
Alan, whether Hussein's behind this or not, I quite agree with you. The occasion of scotching a mad snake is no more a time for clemency than it is for turning the other cheek. You should have gone right in there and nailed the bastard's hide to the wall while the opportunity presented itself.

I hope your government doesn't make the same mistake a second time.

Mike Field
09-11-2001, 11:10 AM
I've just been exchanging emails with a friend in Cape Cod who watched the whole thing on TV and is clearly having trouble internalising what she saw.

The trouble is, it's not just buildings crumbling. It's not even the lives snuffed out so wantonly. It's the whole fabric of your society -- and mine, even from this distance -- being attacked by people who would totally destroy it if they could.

I think it must be a similar feeling for you as the one I had 38 years ago when JFK was assassinated -- downright horror at the complete unbelievableness of it all.

Alan D. Hyde
09-11-2001, 11:10 AM
Mike-------

Perhaps the son may go forward where the father flinched.

Alan

martin schulz
09-11-2001, 11:12 AM
Right - the foreign legion was in Bagdad just before the war, but didn't act and then NATO didn't go in for the kill, so we still have that totally insane tyran running the country, opressing the people buying weapons instead of food, so the embargo had to be relieved.

But? Where do the weapons come from? How come there are still people willing to sell weapons in large scale to people like Hussein?

Alan D. Hyde
09-11-2001, 11:15 AM
Comparisons are being made, by those who were there, with Pearl Harbor day.

A military friend says that Saddam has been at war with us all along; we have just refused to acknowledge that.

Terrorism, for whatever cause it may be undertaken, is a cancer that must be cut from the body of society.

Alan

Ed Harrow
09-11-2001, 11:19 AM
Martin, it comes down to money, greed, revenge, power. Don't look for it to go away anytime soon. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/frown.gif

lumberdude
09-11-2001, 11:19 AM
The news is showing scenes of celabration in the west bank.

Exactly how far has humanity sunk?

paladin
09-11-2001, 11:24 AM
Martin, the weapons are coming from the Soviet Union. I arrived at Saddam international less than 10 days before he invaded Kuwait, and several weeks after The Soviet Premeir stated that they had suspended all weapons sales to Iraq, and there were two cargo aircraft unloading weapons and ammunition at the airpost.....I copped a Makarov as a souvenir on my way through............

Scott Rosen
09-11-2001, 11:31 AM
"Exactly how far has humanity sunk?"

Unfortunately, nothing has changed in a few thousand years. There have always been people who will rejoice in the suffering of others, drink the blood of their hated foe and parade the heads of their victims on the street. Humanity is no futher along than the day it started.

Martin, your conclusion that it is a hopeless fight is premature. America has not yet even joined the battle. We Americans have a job to do. I hope our leaders have the will to get it done.

Jim H
09-11-2001, 11:33 AM
My prayers go out for those lost to this attack. I watched in real time as the second WTC tower was struck and I watched them collapse. I cannot begin to express the anger that I feel. I suspect that the terrorists have not bothered to study American history and our response to direct attack. There will be no safe place on earth for them to hide, no hole deep enough. Every rock will be turned, they will be found and they will be killed. No pity and no remorse, no quarter asked and none given.

Jim H.

martin schulz
09-11-2001, 11:43 AM
Thanks a lot Ed.
I already thought I was the only one realizing that the Murder in this world is not a thing invented in the middle east.

Just look at it. There are people dying because of this discusting act of terrorism and all the answers I am getting is: ...flatten one of their cities, bury the S:O:B:s alive, kill saddam...

Is that the answer?

I am afraid there is no easy answer like that. Just ask yourself why people get in the situation that they find hope only in a fanatic religion and Hate of others. You are as well on the Hate-trip. That solves nothing in the end.

paladinsfo-
I knew this was coming. Right - most of the weapons are russian made - no wonder since they were from a former alied country. But just take a look at the numbers of who is selling most weapons in the world today (germans are doing a good share as well). Weapons which will find their way into hands they don't belong into.
Doesn't it strike you funny to sell weapons large scale everyday (those things are not for spreading butter) instead of giving food away( of course this would disrupt the wellbalanced western economy system) and then to go to war to fight against a 3world country?

ken mcclure
09-11-2001, 11:46 AM
I'm almost 51 years old. I'm crying like a kid. I thought I had seen the worst. I look at my almsost-four-year-old next to me and wonder what her life will hold.

If you pray, do it like you've never done before. The politicians are already talking war.

Jonathan Kabak
09-11-2001, 11:53 AM
Wow...sitting a few blocks from the United Nations has certainly placed a large weight on my mind today... The city, atleast in Midtown seems pretty calm all things considered.

What is this world comming to?

Wayne Jeffers
09-11-2001, 11:55 AM
At this time, words are not adequate to express the rage.

My prayers go out to the victims and their families.

Wayne

cs
09-11-2001, 12:21 PM
I can't put into words the anger. I hope my family understands if they call me up I will go without question. Freedom has to be defended.

Chad

martin schulz
09-11-2001, 12:24 PM
pcal765 - your hate speaks for itself.

Let's put all our civilized restrictions aside. Civilization is just a joke. Let's get the clubs out, the torturing tools out of the museum, sweep the dust of the A-bomb and flatten every country we find while hunting down the people who did this.

And after we are done, after torture, revenge and warfare are again an accepted tool of comunication let's build a peaceful world.

NormMessinger
09-11-2001, 12:35 PM
Get a grip, Pcal, lest the consequences of this horrendous day live longer and more infamously to our shame.

May justice be done. And may we never look at a fireman or cop again without a vision of those people running toward that dust cloud rather than away.

--Norm

dasboat
09-11-2001, 12:44 PM
Well put Norm.
Pcal,Your rage and impulses are certainly understandable.
Please fellas,lets keep this forum a place where all can speak their thoughts w/o recrimination.Now is not the time for a debate.

Ed Harrow
09-11-2001, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Get a grip, Pcal, lest the consequences of this horrendous day live longer and more infamously to our shame.--Norm

Ditto.

(I shouldn't have cut the rest out, I don't mean to slight those who are paid to run into such events...)

My Ex B-in-L might well have been in the Pentagon, he works there. A nice guy despite being an Ex. A co worker was on an AA flight out of Boston to the WC this morning, fortunately it was to San Jose....

Pcal, perhaps there is some personal history? It is time to lay it to rest.

Wayne Jeffers
09-11-2001, 01:02 PM
I, too, suspect Saddam. This certainly has the earmarks of well-coordinated, well-financed militant terrorists, probably foreign.

But let's let the authorities do their job before we rush to judgement.

"Islamic terrorists" were the ones first suspected by most after the bombing in OKC in '95. It turned out to be domestic.

Let's first help the victims and their families, let the authorities investigate, and lastly take appropriate action to punish the guilty.

Wayne

martin schulz
09-11-2001, 01:03 PM
...just a sec ago my apprentice asked my how one can buy stock. To my total abhorrence she explained that now is the time where she can make money.

I ensure you, she is not the only one. Just this moment there will be thousands trying to enlarge their wealth with the death of others - and not all are confused 24old german apprentices.

Wild Dingo
09-11-2001, 01:19 PM
I am totally stunned and shocked.

I had just gotten through writting a "post" elsewhere and had a read of the msn news site and had to re read it again... then I cried. How trivial now that "post" does seem.

I straightened up looked ahead and read the "minutes silence" post, and took the advice and time to consider what had happened. Then I read this one and cried again... America you have just experienced a horrendous tragedy and yet there is already talk of taking nuclear and chemical bombs to countries who in this instance may yet prove to be innocent!

This is truely a time for tears to be shed.

I am shocked that so soon after such devistation and tragedy you can even contemplate what could end up being the end of existance as we know it.

Nuclear or chemical war will not end with just one bomb, retaliation after retaliation after retaliation until this world of ours in totally devistated is not the answer.

Let us first feel for the families of those lost and those that will be lost from injuries recieved in this event, then talk of war if you must, but let us greive for the innocents that are no longer with us because of these events.

Let us first shed our tears for those who innocently died today.

To all Americans here and there I greive with you for the terrible loss of life from these events.

This is not the time to be contraversial or antagonistic, America is weeping for those lost, we who are not there with them must stand beside them at least in spirit to help them walk through it... it is not for us to denigrate, antagonise or trivialise these events or the feelings some here have at this time.

It makes all other topics trivial in comparison. Im not a religious person but I pray now that America takes care in what it decides to do. I also pray for you there who know people or have loved ones at the places where it happened.

Take care and our families love to the victims families and friends, the aid workers, police and firefighters, ambulance officers and medical staff, and the witnesses who now must deal with what has happened on a very personal basis.

Shane
There is no greater loss than the loss of innocent life.

Allen Foote
09-11-2001, 01:21 PM
Greetings from ground zero....Columbia Island marina. Its amazing how little traffic there has been. The Potomac river is empty except for the smoke cloud directly over head. Sorry President Foxx...We'll close our borders now. No planes over head and we are wondering what the target of the crashed Pittsburg plane was? Thank God we have a leader in the White House and not a politician. Today should shut up all liberals.

TomRobb
09-11-2001, 01:29 PM
What a great time for partisan political posturing. Thanks, Allen http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/mad.gif
(sorry Ed)
I was sitting here thinking of all those Tom Clancy novels I've read. Only this one went horribly wrong. What bull**** fantasies! I probably won't ever be able to read one again. No great loss of course. Reality sucks http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by TomRobb (edited 09-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by TomRobb (edited 09-11-2001).]

Wayne Jeffers
09-11-2001, 01:35 PM
Allen,

I can't imagine what any of this has to do with liberal or conservative. And it is no time for cheap shots.

Wayne

clancy
09-11-2001, 01:49 PM
Just got home from work. I live ten miles due west of where the Twin Towers once stood.
The air is filled with the sound of sirens from thousands of emergency vehicles converging on the city. I can not look at the plume of smoke and dust for more than a minute or so before my vision is obscured by tears. People are pulling over in their cars and just staring in silence. God bless us all.

martin schulz
09-11-2001, 01:50 PM
pcal

If you, with your personal idea of what is right and what is wrong, which has been influenced by the way how and where you were brought up think you have the right to torture, or to kill millions of innocents, then who is there to decide why others should't do the same, according to their belief of justice, influenced by their upbringing.

Who will defend freedom, the right to speak, the right to get justice when you turn into the Inquisition.

TomRobb
09-11-2001, 02:00 PM
Martin, as luck would have it, pcal isn't in charge. What "we" do remains to be seen. Something effective, reasonable, right, one hopes.

ken mcclure
09-11-2001, 02:01 PM
While there are many worthwile targets here in Pittsburgh, Allen, I have this feeling that the pilot or the crew may have sacrificed themselves and their passengers knowing what the other planes had done.

If that turns out to be the case, it will have been one of the ultimate acts of heroism in history.

bud
09-11-2001, 02:06 PM
I suspect that some of our revenge will be done for us -
when the people who have been turning a blind eye to the terrorists hiding in their midst see what's going on now - they'll decide that these stakes are too high.
They will be turned out, or just made to disappear.
The various Arab countries like to present a facade of unity, but they're not idiots. They have no interest in war with the U.S.

Scott Rosen
09-11-2001, 02:06 PM
America has the responsibility to protect itself. Talk of punishment and revenge and retaliation is unproductive. Since when have punishment, revenge and retailiation ever stopped a terrorist bent on suicide?

I agree that the only apparent solution is military. The capacity and will of the enemy to make war must be destroyed. It's a simple and time honored principle of war. And defending your citizens from attack on your own soil is the basis for the legitimate and moral exercise of force. I hope our leaders have the courage to follow through.

For those of you who have the tendecy to blame the victims, in other words, to say that it must be America's fault because why would those poor terrorists be so angry if they didn't have a legitimate gripe, I say you are blind to the realities of hatred. We Americans are targetted not because of what we do, but simply because we exist.

Sometimes, my friends, you have to fight for the most basic of all things: the right to live. And sometimes your enemies want to kill you simply because the've been brainwashed into believing that it's their religious duty to do so. Your very existence defiles the holiness of their world.

If I were king, I would rather be accused of war mongering by a million bleeding hearts, then be accused of failing to defend my country in its time of need by one parent of a child killed by terrorists on American soil.

Scott Rosen
09-11-2001, 02:13 PM
Lighten up on pcal. Except for torture, I agree with his sentiments. Martin, your sentiments are noble, but I'd like to hear what you'd be saying if you were watching part of Berlin collapse and had to clean up the blood of your countrymen. Martin, the people who want to kill me don't share your reasoned sense of ethics and won't stop shooting in response to a good argument.

If this isn't the time for anger, than what is? How can you blame someone for being angry today of all days?


[This message has been edited by Scott Rosen (edited 09-11-2001).]

Tom Dugan
09-11-2001, 02:16 PM
The plane that went down in Pennsylvania (not to close to my hometown of Pittsburgh, thank God) was a coast-to-coast flight that made a sudden turn. It was headed straight for Washington DC.

Get up. Get away from the TV and the computer. Take a long walk. Get some air. It'll do ya good.

I'm sitting not too far from Fort Meade, Maryland, which is only a few miles south of the Baltimore airport. It's eerily quiet out there today, since air traffic's been stopped. We were getting air cover by F18s up until sometime after noon. I guess that's when they accounted for all aircraft. (Insert sickly grin here.)

-T

Kermit
09-11-2001, 02:19 PM
I haven't posted here in months. My personal life has been in confusion. And in my need of comfort I turn here? Why is that? I think it speaks of trust. I love you all. If there be gods and blessings, this is surely a time for them to be made tangible.

I'm numb. Mike, when JFK was assassinated, I wept. Now I'm stunned into silence. No tears, just deep, deep sorrow. Pearl Harbor pales. Hiroshima, London, or Dresden come to mind. We Americans have no experience with such volence on our soil.

As free people, our response must be reasoned, deliberate, and focused. We must resist the temptation to respond as the incarnate evil that perpretrated this act hopes we will. We must not justify inhuman acts in our pain and anger. Weep first. Bury our dead. They deserve our prayerful attention and respect.

I have students here in school that need my care and concern. I will not hate. May our hearts become still and our minds calm. Action must come in due course.

Peace, my brothers. Let us be together.
kc

PS--Out here in the Fourth Corner, the Washington State Ferry System has ceased carrying cars. My lady is on the other side. I want her home safe.

[This message has been edited by Kermit (edited 09-11-2001).]

paladin
09-11-2001, 02:25 PM
Dear family, friends and associates,

This morning as I heard, then watched the horror of the kamikaze-style bombings of the World Trade Center and Pentagon, it struck me that we have just experienced a new "Pearl Harbor." As a free and open society, we simply cannot allow a group opposed to our values, to war against us at the time and place of their choosing. We must respond with decisive and powerful resolve to defeat that force so that our liberty may continue. If these are Islamic extremists, I can assure you that one of the values they proclaim does not include liberty. Five years of living in Saudi Arabia, a more moderate Islamic state, assures me of that. To allow Islamic extremists to gain control of society, is to return to the religious oppression of the dark ages and to allow religious correctness to be the judicial and policing force of government - just look at Afghanistan, another place where I have served several months.

A friend of mine watched the New York terror from the cockpit of an aircraft, a relative was just a few blocks away and had just left the immediate area from being told he should have fasted before medical tests, otherwise he would have been in the "kill zone" if he had not had breakfast. I flew with him in them with Bird Air/Air America.. He called me from NYC last night and this morning I was deeply concerned for his safety when I heard that at least one of the aircraft was highjacked out of Boston. He is safe, but when I called his wife in this morning, we did not know that. Her emotion washed over me and I found myself chocking up with emotion also. We later learned from another Friend that stepson Christopher was scheduled out but was detoured to another place in Canada. Shortly after that I spoke with his wife and learned that he was flying over New York at the time of the attacks and saw part of what happened. Mary/Christopher live only about two miles from the Pentagon and she had just returned with the kids from school when she said the entire house shook and there was a loud "thump".
I trust that we will all stand together against this threat and be resolved to serve the cause of liberty.
God bless those families and individuals that have suffered from these infamous acts. I am confident that many of us will recognize names of friends, and loved ones, among the dead from the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Somehow I find it difficult if not impossible to turn the other cheek.

All the best,


[This message has been edited by paladinsfo (edited 09-11-2001).]

martin schulz
09-11-2001, 02:26 PM
Scott - your emotions are understandable but I'd like to hear what you'd be saying if you were watching the world turn into a place were decision are based on unreflected emotions.

I understand the need for anger, especially since this is the first time America has been attacked on it's own ground (I am not forgetting Pearl Harbour - but that was a military operation aimed at the pacific fleet not at innocent people going to work).
But I hope you will not learn the wrong lesson and act as barbaric as the other side aparently does.

Roger Stouff
09-11-2001, 02:39 PM
Peace, brothers and sister.

Don't argue among ourselves. Our emotions are on roller coasters. We are overwhelmed by the horror and, yes, we are thinking of revenge.

There will be vengeance. Global catastrophe is not the answer. But I hardly believe the American people will let this go unpunished.

We are Americans. I am Native American, and I have a whole lot to be bitter about, but I'm one of those who doesn't mind, am proud in fact, of using the term "Native American" because I am both.

The dogs of war will be loosed, there's no alternative, and I must support it. But now is the time for caution, from our leaders to ourselves, to do what must be done in the name of justice, not rage; act in reason, not in despair.

Onward.

Alan D. Hyde
09-11-2001, 02:45 PM
Martin, you are right that the cure for barbarism is not more barbarism. Perhaps pcal's emotions overcame his better judgement in this respect.

As Scott, Paladin, and others have noted, we need to identify the source of these apparently well-funded and well-coordinated attacks, and then we need to eliminate their capacity to make war (yes, what they've done is an act of war).

As we respond, I think it is appropriate to bear in mind some words I have quoted here before: "The means are the ends in the making."

Let us make an end to the heinous hands that plotted and projected this terror on our people. But let us not make an end to our principles in the process.

That would be the most sorry loss of all.

Alan

martin schulz
09-11-2001, 02:54 PM
Too all of you living in the USA.

When I heard what happened today my first thought was to turn into this forum to tell those Americans I have come to know a little how mournful I am that this tragedy happened.

I am sorry that I suddenly found myself in the position of defending high ethic principals. They are true and the only way of interaction but I still want to tell you that my Feelings are with all of you.

I am off for the news and then the bed. May tomorrow be a better day than this black day today.

Gute Nacht.

Rich VanValkenburg
09-11-2001, 02:59 PM
I have to get this one out. I don't know what the situation is across the country, but here in the Detroit area a major percentage of the gas stations are owned and operated by those of Middle Eastern decent. I see it every morning when the stack of mail of one or other of these operators includes large envelopes destined for Baghdad. I can read the addresses clearly. Gas prices here in many stations just went up .20 a gallon. Why?

It bothers me that gasoline is under control of a group that has such close ties to those who hate us and my well be profiting from our pain. It's hard to point a finger at a group who might consider themselves legitimate businessmen, but it's obvious where their allegiances lie when they are inclined to gouge us anytime they please. My greater concern is that they could also destroy the gasoline supply at any time.

Alan D. Hyde
09-11-2001, 03:07 PM
Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think most Americans of Arab descent are now any more disloyal than were Americans of Japanese descent during World War II.

Now is the time for us to stay cool and to keep our wits about us.

We will need to do so, if we are to successfully identify and defeat the perpetrators of these criminal acts.

Alan

[This message has been edited by Alan D. Hyde (edited 09-11-2001).]

dasboat
09-11-2001, 03:10 PM
....I still believe that people are really good at heart.
Anne Frank 14 yrs. old

Dave Hancock
09-11-2001, 03:13 PM
Fear, anger, hate, prejudice. Aren't we repeating ourselves here. Most of us wooden boat folks SEEM be be a peaceable bunch - apparently not! Lets take a step back and realize that the buggers that pulled this thing off are not representatives of any national group - just a few nuts whose hate got the better of them.

htom
09-11-2001, 03:19 PM
To stoop to their level of vengence would be to hand them the victory.

There are days, though, when I'm so that glad I'm not the King of America. I don't have the patience for it. I want to hit someone, and hit them so hard that I bleed. I want to properly cruicfy a scapegoat, regardless of their guilt (and I fear that that's what we'll do!) Among the sacrifices will be a lot more of what we used to call "civil liberties" in this country, I fear. Am I the only one who's noticed that these criminal acts occur in violation of already existing laws, which didn't prevent these acts?

The local PBS station has replaced the usual daytime weather with a live BBC feed; I'm watching that on the big screen, while flipping between the others. The BBC has done a supurb job of covering a story a third of the planet away.

Local notes -- The Mall of America and a couple of the 50-60 stories have been closed. The Twin Cities Airport(s?) are closed. The Minnesota Emergency Plan has been activated, whatever that means.

It has been -so- quiet outside (we live about 8 miles from the airport.)

May God have mercy on their souls, and grant them all eternal peace.

I still want to hit someone.

Keith Wilson
09-11-2001, 03:23 PM
Alan is right. It may be hard to defend ourselves effectively against barbarians without turning into barbarians ourselves, but we must defend ourselves, and we must not start to resemble those who did this. What we are defending is what is essential about civilization, that ordinary people can go about their lives unmolested, that we can go to work in the morning without fear of being blown up.

Hugh Paterson
09-11-2001, 03:31 PM
The horror and scale of this terrorist attack have caught us all by surprise, there are not enough words to describe my revulsion
for the screwballs that carried out this attack. My prayers go out to all the family and friends of the victims, and to the emergency services involved in the aftermath. The people that carried out this
atrocious terrorist attack are not fit to walk the face of this planet with other decent people. Be strong America... the world weeps with you, God bless.

Shuggie

Alan D. Hyde
09-11-2001, 03:32 PM
Dave, the anger is justified.

We DO need to make cool, unprejudiced, judgements.

Fear is a reasonable emotion with respect to fearful things, such as we have seen today. Our reason and our resolve, however, must take control of our fears.

Hate is a corrosive emotion which harms those who hold it even more than those against whom it is directed.

We need to direct our anger rationally, master our fear, avoid hatred, and gather our forces together to identify and eradicate those responsible for this terror.

At this point, Dave, it appears that they were too well financed and directed to be "a few nuts whose hate got the better of them."

Alan

Alan D. Hyde
09-11-2001, 03:34 PM
Thank you, Keith.

Alan

lumberdude
09-11-2001, 03:39 PM
The things that transpired today is without a doubt a very horrible tragedy, but, answering this hate crime with further hate only gets all of humanity closer to being like the people that carried this out. Don't get me wrong. When I see this, and think about an attack on my country, the first repsponse is absolutely anger. Anger at the idiots that carried this out, and anger at the system for letting them carry this out. But to what end?

If a group in the middle east is responsible, should they be punished? Hell Yeah!! But should they, all be "wiped out"? Everyone knows that isn't going to happen. And shouldn't. I feel very sad watching people cheer at the sight of Americans suffering, but that doesn't make me want to kill them, it makes me wish the news wouldn't air that just to propagate more hate.

I don't know what the answer should be, but it seems to me a little self defeating to strike back, and wait for them to pounce again. (which they will) I mean, how long has the war between Israel and Palestine been at war? You won't stop them as long as any exist. Genocide in any form is wrong.

One more thing, the last American terrorist attack was performed by Americans, remember?

J. Dillon
09-11-2001, 03:40 PM
Do something positive. Sign up to donate blood. It surely will be needed.
JD

Alan D. Hyde
09-11-2001, 03:49 PM
Lumberdude-------

When we talk of striking back and eradicating those responsible for these terrible acts, I don't think most of us are thinking of race, creed, or color, or of the civilians who are horribly oppressed by the government most likely responsible.

We are simply trying to remove a nest of evil men from the levers of power and authority that would permit them to plan and to carry out actions of this kind again in the future.

Kind of like disarming some madmen. This is not hateful; it is reasonable and necessary.

Alan

[This message has been edited by Alan D. Hyde (edited 09-11-2001).]

Hugh Paterson
09-11-2001, 04:08 PM
The BBC are hinting that Bin Laden is the most likely person to have planned the attack, problem is you have to prove it first!

paladin
09-11-2001, 04:17 PM
About two weeks ago Bin Laden totally disappeared off the radar screes and went underground. There was suspicions that somthing was awry and the State Department issued a warning to all travellers.

Worldwide Caution - Public Announcement
> September 7, 2001
>
> Over the last several months, the U.S. Government has learned that U.S.
> citizens and interests abroad may be at increased risk of a terrorist
action
> from extremist groups. In addition, we have received unconfirmed
> information that terrorist actions may be taken against U.S. military
> facilities and/or establishments frequented by U.S. military personnel in
> Korea and Japan. We are also concerned about information we received in
May
> 2001 that American citizens may be the target of a terrorist threat from
> extremist groups with links to Usama Bin Ladin's Al-Qaida organization.
In
> the past, such individuals have not distinguished between official and
> civilian targets. As always, we take this information seriously. U.S.
> Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of alert.
>
> U.S. citizens are urged to maintain a high level of vigilance and to take
> appropriate steps to increase their security awareness to reduce their
> vulnerability. Americans should maintain a low profile, vary routes and
> times for all required travel, and treat mail and packages from unfamiliar
> sources with suspicion. In addition, American citizens are also urged to
> avoid contact with any suspicious, unfamiliar objects, and to report the
> presence of the objects to local authorities. Vehicles should not be left
> unattended, if at all possible, and should be kept locked at all times.
> U.S. Government personnel overseas have been advised to take the same
> precautions. In addition, U.S. Government facilities have and will
continue
> to temporarily close or suspend public services as necessary to review
their
> security posture and ensure its adequacy.
>
> U.S. citizens planning to travel abroad should consult the Department of
> State's Public Announcements, Travel Warnings, Consular Information
Sheets,
> and regional travel brochures, all of which are available at the Consular
> Affairs Internet web site at http://travel.state.gov. We will continue to
> provide updated information should it become available. American citizens
> overseas may contact the American Citizens Services unit of the nearest
U.S.
> Embassy or Consulate by telephone or fax for up-to-date information on
> security conditions. In addition, American citizens in need of emergency
> assistance should telephone the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate before
> visiting the Embassy or Consulate.
>
> Department of State travel information and publications are available at
> Internet address: http://travel.state.gov. U.S. travelers may hear
> recorded information by calling the Department of State in Washington,
D.C.
> at 202-647-5225 from their touch-tone telephone, or receive information by
> automated telefax by dialing 202-647-3000 from their fax machine.
>
> This Public Announcement supersedes the Public Announcement - Worldwide
> Caution of June 22, 2001 to inform U.S. citizens of unconfirmed threats
> against U.S. military facilities, personnel and establishments frequented
by
> U.S. military personnel. This Public Announcement expires on December 22,
> 2001.
>
I guess there's enough said......

Kermit
09-11-2001, 04:24 PM
My god. Lumberdude raises a fearsome notion. What if it turns out that this attack was carried out by Americans? Impossible? Re-read some of the initial gut-responses to the Oklahoma City bombing. Many fingers were pointing to the Middle East on that one. That thought ought to stop us dead in our accusatory tracks!
kc

Alan D. Hyde
09-11-2001, 04:25 PM
My understanding is that he has financial and other ties with Saddam.

Paladin will likely know more about this.

Alan

Bryan Mehus
09-11-2001, 04:28 PM
I can't express in words what I'm feeling! But I assure you the symbiotic relationship that Canadians have with the people and government of the U.S.A. dictates that our feelings of grief, anger, sadness and a wish to help are very deep.
God, or whomever you choose to believe in, be with you all.
Bryan

Steve Souther
09-11-2001, 05:11 PM
Friends,
I'm shocked, saddened, and shook up. This day will go down in history and things will never be the same. All of those people who suddenly came to the end is such a horrible way.... my prayers go out to every one of them. My prayers go out to the rest of us whose tempers reveal in us the same fire that drives our enemies. Their complete disregard for life threatens now to become our disregard as well; their religious zeal, our religious zeal. Are we going to let this happen?
I am haunted by a video image I saw last winter of missle fragments piled up on a Gaza Strip road-side. Made-in-the USA plates were found over and over again riveted to these fragments. Since around November of last year these missles have been fired from Israeli helicopters indiscriminately, hitting homes, bedrooms where children sleep, and bringing terror to neighborhood after neighborhood in the Gaza Strip and probably in the West Bank as well. Tanks could be heard in the background leveling Palistinian homes during the day. All this has been a weekly event for this people. They are trapped in this small piece of Israeli occupied land.
Nathan is the man in the video. A candle is the only light in which to see his face. The power goes off each night during the nightly air raids, and his words have stayed with me ever since: "Something bad is going to happen if the US continues to send billions to Israel in support of their military actions against this people." True, the money goes for other things, but this money frees up those dollars to buy expensive American weapons. The war has already been going on: only one side has the military might. Each side calls the other side terrorists. One terror act leads to another and each successive event escalates the anger and the response! We are now involved directly in this war and can, with our military, raise it to a whole new level. Can you imagine how much pressure is now being exerted on our government to do something that could start us all down the path to WWIII. The world may be on the brink of terror itself!
I think maybe I should consider steel in the construction of my new boat...

Steve

Greg H
09-11-2001, 05:25 PM
http://garbo.uwasa.fi/icons/pc/files/_earth.gif sigh.....

George Roberts
09-11-2001, 05:58 PM
Pcal ---

You claim that there is a "prohibition against the US Government engaging in assasination."

There is not. There is a presidential decision to not do so. There is no prohibion.

----------

While we can talk about what should be done, a man called Bush will decide.

I am glad I do not make the decision.

Bob Cleek
09-11-2001, 05:59 PM
Horrible, yes. Surprising, not really. We have been at war with these people (whomever they may be) for years now. We've been killing them, where possible. We've been supporting their enemies. Our hands are not bloodless, whether or not that has been justified. This is war. It has been. The American People have been living in denial about it. The government's dirty little secret we've been happy to let them keep from us. So much for our smug isolation. Volumes have been written laying out EXACTLY the scenario that played out today. (Clancy's got a book/movie on it... but the target was the Capital, not the Pentagon. His sources were public domain intelligence analyses.) The best we can do to defend ourselves has been a bunch of high-school dropouts manning inadequate metal detectors at the airport. Anybody who has flown into or out of secured airports outside the US knows what a joke our "security" systems really are. We have known of this chink in our armor for years. These people are not driven by "hate," as some lament. They are human beings like us in many ways, only much more desperate. They are fighting a war that has been a lot more real for them that it was for us for a long, long time. Their wives and children have died, are dying and will still die. What goes around, just came around. I guarantee you, there isn't a soul in the anti-terrorism business who hasn't postulated this event and ran through it in their mind a hundred times. It was only a matter of time before it was pulled off. You have to admit, they did one hell of a good job of it. All that could be done to prevent it was done, but that was precious little, short of abandoning our personal liberties, which, after all, is their objective. As alluded by others above, the problem with terrorism is that targeting them only makes more martyrs. Who are ya gonna shoot? Global war against the Muslim Third World? Ask the Israelis how successful they've been against a few hundred thousand rock throwing Palestinians over the last fifty years! You can't beat somebody who has nothing to lose, short of killing him first. We need to take a really hard look at why these people are doing this before we make our next move. Know your enemy. They AREN'T just a bunch of radical rag head nuts! Never were. Not any more than the Japanese were a bunch of buck-toothed near-sighted little jerks. America, get used to the fact that there won't be any more trash cans or bathrooms in public places anymore. Don't leave your luggage unattended. Welcome to the rest of the world! Damn shame, but so much for the "Pax Americana."

[This message has been edited by Bob Cleek (edited 09-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Bob Cleek (edited 09-11-2001).]

paladin
09-11-2001, 06:09 PM
at this time I would like all forum members to note that I am 5A, women and children go before me!

doorstop
09-11-2001, 06:25 PM
I don't know how to express my sorrow at this obscenity, I just pray that American heads will be cool and clear in their response to this incredible act of horror.

Ed Harrow
09-11-2001, 06:27 PM
I thought I would share this email from a Russian friend.

Dear American friends of mine,
I don't know what to tell.
I came from my studio one and a half hour before and watched TV.
It is horror.
I refuse to believe it. I can't understand. I have got a headache.
We lived the same over two years ago when terrorists destroyed a few
buildings in Russia. I know real how difficult to live through such event.
We went all nights by turn during the month around our house buildings to look for them, to protect
them.
It is difficult to live it through.
I and all my family and friends are with you and your people.

Vladimir

PatCox
09-11-2001, 07:05 PM
I have been reading the european newswires for the reaction of foreign leaders, and I am so releived by what I have seen. Immediate and clear indications from most world leaders that they would have no objection to a US military response, and they make it clear they have no objection even if the attack is on the country that harbors the terrorists, as opposed to the terrorists themselves. My bigest fear has been escalation, clearly we will retaliate, my only fear has been that we retaliate with nukes and provoke the rest of the world or one or two large nations with nukes of their own. It appears neither fear is justified. Thank God.

One observation; CNN interviewed Kissinger, who said "This is clearly as bad as Pearl Harbor, and whoever did it should suffer the same fate as those who perpetrated the attack on Pearl Harbor. Sounded like a nicely deniable trial balloon, I hope it wasn't.

God help us, and most of all give wisdom to our leaders.

Bob Cleek
09-11-2001, 07:06 PM
The latest from Saddam:

``The American cowboy is reaping the fruits of his crimes against humanity. It is a black day in the history of America, which is tasting the bitter defeat of its crimes and disregard for peoples' will to lead a free, decent life,..."

``The massive explosions in the centers of power in America, notably the Pentagon, are a painful slap in the face of U.S. politicians to stop their illegitimate hegemony and attempts to impose custodianship on peoples,''

``It was no coincidence that the World Trade Center was destroyed in suicide operations involving two planes that have broken through all U.S. security barriers to carry out the operation of the century and to express rejection of the reckless U.S. policy,''

``The collapse of U.S. centers of power is a collapse of the U.S. policy, which deviates from human values and stands by world Zionism at all international forums to continue to slaughter the Palestinian Arab people and implement U.S. plans to dominate the world under the cover of what is called the new order. These are the fruits of the new U.S. order,''

So...

"All nations have 48 hours to remove their diplomatic personnel from the following countries... Iraq, Libya, etc... Thereafter, every 24 hours, an entire city in one of the designated countries will be vaporized by US tactical nuclear ordinance until such time as each and every perpetrator and co-conspirator involved in the attacks on the US are delivered, dead or alive, together with substantiating documentation of their involvement, to the International Court in the Hague."

There really isn't any other way to deal with terrorists... is there?

thechemist
09-11-2001, 07:52 PM
How many innocent and/or brainwashed arabs live in such countries, seeking only a simple life and family future? Is the solution to kill all them, too, perhaps accidentally vaporizing said terrorists in one of those cities? Unable to deliver said terrorists, we proceed to vaporize every city in each of said countries.....this is neither a good solution.

Germany, after its defeat by the Allies in 1945, existed under essentially martial law for decades. The political leaders were removed, the military replaced with an allied army of occupation, and a generation or two grew up without the thirst for blood.

Perhaps once a nation sponsoring such terrorism has been clearly identified, the conquer-and-occupy method of control could be used. It certainly leaves less radioactive debris and radioactive soil and radioactive crops for the next few hundred years.......

Bob Cleek
09-11-2001, 08:33 PM
Yes, you are right, Chemist... but the "safe and sane" approach lacks the satisfaction quotient... I am sure calmer minds than mine will prevail! LOL

dasboat
09-11-2001, 09:33 PM
I don't think a pound of flesh is any longer as heavy as eliminating the perp,and holding the harboring nation equally accountable.
The giant has been awakened,and he is wiser than before.

It is a time to lead the world in setting the limits on murder in the name of religion.It is also a time to challange nations to decide if they are going to be a part of the problem or part of the solution(to paraphrase mr.cleaver).

Jamie Hascall
09-11-2001, 09:36 PM
When those responsible have been found and punished, let us take this opportunity to look at the suffering the world over and work to relieve it. Only then may we all find peace. Anger is what we all feel. Healing is what we all need.

Jamie

dasboat
09-11-2001, 10:03 PM
Refuse to be a victim!Refuse to make nice so people will like you more and not want to hurt you.
Personal well being,peace,if you like is as much a function of a profound detirmination to stand up for ones self as it is a simple absence of hostilities.

Todd Schliemann
09-11-2001, 10:50 PM
I live in NYC 3/4 of a mile north of the Trade Centers with my wife and two sons, four and eight.

Can't seem to sleep.

Early this morning I left on a flight to Washington D.C. Unaware that anything had happened, I rented a car in DC and passed by the Pentagon 15 minutes before the attack there, oblivious. I traveled on to my destination, southeast of Pittsburg.

When I arrived I was told of the plane crash 30 miles from where I stood, the attack on the Pentagon and the horror of the Trade Centers. I got in the car and drove, unable to get a telephone connection through to home. The radio said that all bridges and tunnels were closed into the City and only some trains were operating, outbound only. Still unable to get in touch with my family I theaded my way north of Manhattan and crossed the Hudson upstate and got to Tarrytown north of Manhattan determined to find a way in. Went to the train station there and saw that empty southbound trains were miraculously stopping for some reason. I jumped on one of them and got into Grand Central Station an hour later. Ran home forty blocks on foot.

15 hours after I left this morning I opened the door to my apartment and my four year old son Giancarlo ran up to me and said, "the buildings are falling down, Papa." My wife and son Luca were standing behind him smiling at me.

While I still have friends who were in the Trade Centers and adjacent buildings that are missing, life is good again for me.

jeff pierce
09-11-2001, 10:52 PM
Perhaps this long day is not quite over:
News says two men arrested a short time ago under the George Washington Bridge with enough explosives to take down the span.

StevenBauer
09-11-2001, 11:31 PM
Wow, Todd. That sounds like some day you had! My wife's sister was on a flight from Newark to San Francisco this morning that left fifteen minutes after the flight that was hijacked. She landed in ohio and rented a car with some co-workers and is home with her family now. My wife's brother was working in Jersey City on the waterfront and was watching the smoke from the first tower and saw the second plane hit.
I'm really feeling shaken here in Maine, I can't imagine what it must have been like to be as close to events as my sister- and brother- in law.
I send my prayers to all the families who were not as lucky as mine.

Frank Hagan
09-12-2001, 12:08 AM
The executive order preventing assassination attempts are for peacetime. Not war.

The talk of declaring war on the terrorists, and the "people who harbor them," means that the rules of peaceful engagement are suspended in favor of the rules of war. We don't have to issue a new executive order changing the first one. Its a different ballgame, as they say.

Some tell us its silly to have "rules" for war, but we do. The rules tell us to not torture prisoners. They tell us to not kill those who surrender. They tell us to limit force to men on the battlefield, and not go after civilians (even though war is messy, and innocents always die, that shouldn't be the goal.)

And we don't need "proof", just evidence. It isn't a courtroom, its a battlefield.

So, if we declare war on the ones responsible, we find out who they are. And who helped them. And then we hunt them down and kill them.

We don't have to lower ourselves to their level and kill their women and children. We don't have to "bring them to justice" so our friends won't extridite them.

If its war, we just kill them.

Nora Lee
09-12-2001, 12:10 AM
This is a time for ALL of us to join with our neighbors, far & wide, in a national day of prayer...

I have a son, who is 24 yrs. old, and as all mothers, I am in fear of how he is going to react to this attack.

He has been trying to make a decision, to go into the military for the past few months. He has a wife and two beautiful boys who need him at home. I am afraid that the decision will not be his alone...but the decision of our government to send ALL of our young people to go to die.

I have prayed that this generation would be spared, what our fathers and our husbands have had to live through.

I think that wives, mothers, sisters, aunts, and grandmothers, should march on Washington to appeal to the politicos, to keep sane heads as they make decisions, which will impact us all.

I lived through two deployments with my husband in Vietnam, I am too old to have to watch my only child leave to seek revenge.

God Bless US ALL! Pray for us, pray for the world!

Nora Lee

Phil Young
09-12-2001, 12:26 AM
How sad that it is this event that brings me back here. I started in a new job a few weeks ago and have been unspeakably busy. In the Aviation industry as it happens. But I had to come here to see what wiser people than CNN had to say. The attack frightens me. The anger, and desire for revenge in particular, expressed by so many Americans, but particularly by some of the calm and thoughtfull contributors to this board frightens me even more. I think I understand it. I certainly respect it. But I hope like hell we don't get into a new world war over this. My sympathy to all who have been, and will be affected. Its a sad day for all of us.

Mike Field
09-12-2001, 02:58 AM
You might find these worth reading -- Charles Brennan's "Hit the buildings, missed America," on the TSBB at --

http://www.trailersailor.com/forums/trailersailor/index.cgi?read=142108

and in a different vein, Jon Eisberg's piece from the CWBB, at --

http://www.sailingworld.com/forums/genlmesg/index.pl?read=200535


[This message has been edited by Mike Field (edited 09-12-2001).]

Jeff Kelety
09-12-2001, 07:20 AM
<We need to take a really hard look at why these people are doing this before we make our next move. >

The "why's" matter as Bob suggests. But I don't think this matters overly much to those in postions of leadership. I am not optimistic about a thoughtful resolution to this.

jgk

Andrew
09-12-2001, 08:16 AM
All those years of living with the "Bomb", air-raid drills in school, bomb shelters, the missile crisis... only to get blind-sided like this.

Billy Bones
09-12-2001, 09:03 AM
What is an 'Arab?' To understand the who and why of this situation, we better be able to answer that question pretty well. There are more dimensions to the 'Arab' culture than to even the 'Hispanic.' Afgani muslims are a far cry from Palestinians, who are pretty different from Iraqi, etc, etc. Let's pray that those we've elected take the time to learn well the face of our new enemy before devising a response to this crisis.

Just out of curiosity, I bought gas in an 'Arab' gas station this morning. The guy behind the counter, the owner, was extremely courteous and not a little bit nervous.

Americans likes to think we respond quick and sure to these situations. Lets not sacrifice the sure part in favor of the emotionally satisfying quick part.

Amid my prayers for everyone involved, particularly those with an empty place at the breakfast table this morning, I'm also going to give a kind and hopeful thought for the 'Arabs' in the US who are our citizens and our friends.

Think first, then act. Think first, then act. Think first, then act......

Mike Field
09-12-2001, 09:24 AM
Thanks, Billy, that's exactly right. I hope for the sake of not only your Arab fellow-countrymen, but for all of us that that attitude prevails among your decision-makers.

brad9798
09-12-2001, 09:33 AM
There comes a time when political correctness with regard to how we respond, along with the worries of civilian/collateral damage will have to go out the window. Thus, war.

Political correctness (being afraid of our own shadows) and trying to be everyone's friend (being spineless) are what got us here in the first place.

Sure, we are THE super power- militarily, financially, etc. BUT, we are also a joke because we continue to bend over at every turn.

Me- I'd handle it like the British did for centuries (and like the US did until 100 years ago, or so)- If it's a threat, destroy it. If you need it, take it.

Let's face it (at the risk of offending some, if not all of you)- IF it is Islamic militants involved, they have broken my number-one rule: Don't bite the hand(s) that feed you. We (the Western World) have given these "people" the technology, the wherewithall and the channels by which to live. Period.

Again, IF it is Islamic Militant/Palestinian/etc. We are kidding ourselves by trying to learn "why" or "how" they think.

Think about it, that region was the cradle of civilization, and has been the cradle for stupid, senseless violence against themselves and others for 5,000 years.

Are we going to change that by attempting to "understand" their wants and needs?

Hell, many understand the wants and needs in Northern Ireland, but we haven't stopped that, have we!? "In the name of God, I must kill my neighbor," is not a philosophy we are going to change.

These types of people are like bugs- We don't try to understand roaches and say play nicely somewhere else. We step on them. Period. We do not need to befriend them and work through the "problems."

Sure I'm simplifying things ... but this world needs some simplification. I get so tired of this country and its people talking and discussing.

We, as a country and individuals, have become so vanilla that we are afraid to act. Because, Heaven forbid, we piss someone off.

If there is collateral damage, so be it. I guess I'll see them in hell.

WE NEED TO MAKE A STATEMENT rather than continue to pussy-foot around the issues.
-------------
I am concerned, though, for any upstanding middle-eastern people in this country- It's not their fault. But, I fear their may be some retaliation. I hope not.

paladin
09-12-2001, 09:35 AM
I had a dental appointment this morning and my dentist was a bit apprehensitive also (Iranian) and the young lady that acts as his dental assistant, who smiled politely when she greeted me. At first it didn't register until she said something about the way some people looked at her and I asked "Why on earth would anyone act that way toward you" and she seemed surprised when she said, "you know of course we are from Iran?"..........I mentioned that I knew that but what did it have to do with the situation, you're Americans now....after that things settled down....same over breakfast. One of the young ladies is the daughter of a local service station where I stopped for gas. He was very polite this morning as was his daughter but it was obvious they were very nervous, and there were several people running late at the local Mosque this morning also, and it is strange that sometimes you never think of these things...those folks are Americans....and although I make jokes about the "white man" over running us poor "native Americans" I guess we all pull together when we gotta pull. I hope this house and property sell soon....I wanna go home to sweet thing.....

dasboat
09-12-2001, 09:48 AM
An act of war or a violation of US criminal law??

Scott Rosen
09-12-2001, 10:12 AM
When those planes crashed into the WTC and Pentagon, they killed white folks, black folks, red folks, yellow folks, women, children, men, Christians, Jews, Moslems, Americans, foreigners. While the fervor behind it was religious, this was not directed toward any one race or relgion. It was directed at Americans. That is why it is an act of war.

I think the excessive hand-wringing about the need to stay above the level of our attackers is misplaced. We are the biggest, strongest nation on earth. And we have the best record, bar none, of humane treatment of our enemies in war and in the aftermath. Our former enemies, once defeated, have become great world powers. We Americans deserve some credit for that. We are strong enough to do this job without needing to resort to indiscriminate killing and I trust we will stay true to our principles. The ethics behind our need to defend ourself are sound, so we don't need to apologize to anyone for what we have to do.

I also think that those of you who look inward to try to explain the conduct of our enemies are looking in the wrong direction. We were not attacked because we support this or that. We were attacked because of who we are and what we stand for. Our open society and freedom, especially freedom of religion and speach, and our desire to spread these blessings, are the source of our enemies' hatred. Our mere existence is a threat to their desire to impose their particularly sick brand of religious belief on the rest of the world. If we retreat in the face of attack, we will embolden our attackers even more. They are not out to change our policy, they are out to kill the infidel. Wake up and smell the blood.

Those of you who think we were attacked because of the way Israelis treat Palestinians are smoking something foul. If Israel disappeared tomorrow, the terrorist threat would not diminish one wit. There are many victims of terror in the world who don't support Israel. Russia comes to mind. If the enemies who committed this attack spent one-tenth the effort and money in promoting peace rather than hatred between Moslems and Jews, then the Palestinian/Israeli conflict would have been resolved years ago. Certainly a Saudi millionaire can find better ways to protect his "brothers" than by refusing to let them into his country, refusing to supply them with enough food and money to live comfortably, but instead keeping them in poverty and indoctinating them with vile racial hatred. How easy it must be to be a Saudi Prince, living in luxury and increasing your power while sending children to their death with promises of eternal life.

John R Smith
09-12-2001, 10:40 AM
A very great American had this to say -

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." Martin Luther King, 1967

Keith Wilson
09-12-2001, 10:57 AM
brad9798 - First, I'm probably as angry as you are abut this. Whoever is responsible is going to catch hell; in fact, if I were any good at that sort of thing, I'd be pleased to help myself. However, I have to strongly disagree with: "We are kidding ourselves by trying to learn "why" or "how" they think."

Even from the point of view of pure self-interest, this is a mistake. We are not dealing with "bugs" here. Bugs don't plan highly complex and successful terrorist attacks. One must always try to understand one's enemies, if only to defeat them most effectively.

If they turn out to be Arabs with a grudge against the US, we have to distinguish between those who attacked us and the entire people, even those who celebrated when they heard the news. The first can be dealt with as forcefully as either of us would like, but we're going to have to deal with the people, whether they like us or not.

Trying to be everyone's friend is admirable. Being spineless is fatal. They are NOT the same thing. The best way to get rid of an enemy, although it's not always possible, is to one day make them other than an enemy, even a friend. I'd much rather have my son visit Japan as a tourist than send him to fight in the Pacific like his grandfather. This does NOT mean giving in to barbarians.

The choice is not between being spineless and letting anyone with a bad attitude walk all over us, and being just another imperial power that takes whatever it wants. Our task is to defend ourselves effectively against barbarians without starting to resemble them. We've done this before; we can do it now.

Alan D. Hyde
09-12-2001, 11:00 AM
Well said, Keith.

Alan

dasboat
09-12-2001, 11:11 AM
Well said Scott!
John,with respect I differ.
Violence as an act of defense is not predicated upon hate.
Responding to this act of war is going to require violence.
The outcomes of violence are not always bad.Wittness the growth of nations,as Scott pointed out,as a result of war against the crazy righteousness of Hitler and so many others.
Lies do die.They die when there is no longer evidence of the lie or it's rationale.Lies die when the truth is known.Truth is to be released,not established.
Respectfully,Das

Keith Wilson
09-12-2001, 11:19 AM
A thought in response to the MLK quote from John - If in 1980 the Palestinians had started a serious campaign of Ghandian nonviolent resistance and noncooperation instead of blowing up restaurants, we'd be celebrating the 10th anniversary of independent Palestine right about now. Israel is SO vulnerable to that kind of tactics. And a whole lot of folks, mostly Arabs, would be alive today. Well, if pigs had wings . . . http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/frown.gif

Thanks, Alan. This seems to be an issue on which we very much agree.

Alan D. Hyde
09-12-2001, 11:22 AM
JohnRSmith-------

Martin Luther King was of course correct. We must fight haters without ourselves being hateful.

We must search out and destroy those who perpetrated this outrage not because we HATE them, but because we LOVE humanity.

It is not a matter of race, creed, or color, or even of crime and punishment. It is a matter of prevention of further harm. Just as Munich caused many lives to be lost, so did the rapid advance of George Patton's Third Army cause many lives to be saved. I have a friend who fought with them, one of the first Americans through the gates of Auschwitz...

Alan

Alan D. Hyde
09-12-2001, 11:30 AM
By the way, don olney started this thread.

don, are you and yours OK?

Appreciate your good reports yesterday, and hope you and your family remain, physically at least, unscathed by yesterday's terror.

Alan

Bryan Robinson
09-12-2001, 11:53 AM
Colin Powell said this morning that we will find these people who are responsible and deal with them. I wish everyone well in doing that job. Wish I was still there to help in the hunt.

Scott Rosen
09-12-2001, 11:58 AM
John,

Interesting but totally inappropriate quote from MLK. Problem is MLK was talking about violence in the context of the American Civil Rights movement. He was advocating Ghandian resistance by Americans against Americans. He knew he had the law on his side, and he knew that the majority of Americans supported the Civil Rights movement and opposed murder of civilians. This philosopy works when your enemy is basically rational and humane. That's why Ghandi succeeded against British rule. Because the British didn't have the stomach to engage in wholesale slaughter of innocent people who were only asking for the right of self-rule. The fact that Ghandi succeeded says more about the basic good qualities of the British people than it does about the validity of his methods.

The Ghandian says to his enemy: "I challenge you to kill me. I trust you won't because you won't let yourself diminish your humanity." It worked for the Indians. It worked for Black Americans. And it can work whenever there are people of good will on both sides who value the sanctity of life above all things. Those methods don't work against people who want you dead and will commit suicide to make it happen. It wouldn't have worked at Auchwitz and it won't work against fanatical terrorists.

You could say that every one of yesterday's victims was engaged in Ghandian resistance: They depended on the mercy and humanity of their captors. We know the results.

Allen Foote
09-12-2001, 11:59 AM
I grew up with many Uncles that fought in WWII and learned about those that didn't return. My family has fought in every U.S. war since 1622 and I'm sure we killed a few indians back there someplace also. This was a act of war against the U.S. Do we really care why the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor? And the Liberals said the atomic bombs were "inhuman" and didn't want the "Enola Gay" to be displayed at the Smithsonian...remember that? Just a few years ago? If these attacks were brought about because of U.S./ Isreali policy then we are stupid to not rethink U.S./Isreali policy. My Uncle Frank told me in the 60's that this isn't the same country he fought for (with a flame thrower frying Japs in the Pacific) and that my draft age Uncle Mike was going to Canada if he had to carry him there himself. History has showed that if you wipe out 1 generation...then the grand children will retaliate with suicide bombings 50 years later. How many ethnic wars started with the Soviet collapse? 400 year old grudges. No matter where the U.S. goes after this....we need to look to the future before we retaliate for yesterdays attocities...for our legacy will be with us. If we are to retaliate then erace the very blood line of our enemies and do it swiftly and precicesly and know that it is just and right to do. Put your faith in God and the system of government that he has graced this world with and thank him that you were born an American. This isn't the America of 1942....and our enemies aren't as clearly defined....but our spirit lives in our souls...and we ARE Americans and we will resolve this as we are meant to.

John Gearing
09-12-2001, 12:02 PM
I have just heard a rumor that "Arab-looking" people are being beaten on the streets of NYC. If true, this is a terrible thing.

Many may disagree with the previously mentioned philosophy of "if we need it-take it" but that is just what we have been doing for a long time--except that we were using economic force instead of military force to achieve these ends. There are plenty of folks out there in the Third World who have been denied the freedoms we enjoy under our constitution due to things like our govt's support of dictators, or US-based multinational corporations keeping repressive governments in power. The image of the U.S. as this squeaky clean altruistic bringer of truth and freedom is the way we would like us to be, and is a good ideal to try to live up to, but we have not always acted to uphold this image.

That is not to say that our failure in this regard is any excuse or reason for any aggrieved party to do what was done yesterday. But if we mourn the murder of our innocents, then taking the lives of more innocents in revenge cannot be justified. That is, cannot be justfied unless we are willing to take a similar moral stand to the one that allowed us to bomb Japanese and German civilian populations during WWII. We should be aware of the choices we're making and why we're making them.

One thing that is very different since the good old days of the British Empire is that the natives have gotten a lot smarter and better armed. Destructive force has largely become a matter of being able to afford the technology rather than on being able to raise and equip an old-fashioned army and fleet. We no longer face native hordes armed with spears or flintlocks in the face of our repeating rifles, Hotchkiss guns, and Maxims. The debacle in Mogadishu should have made it clear that there will be no more battles like Roark's Bluff (dunno if I got that ref right, but it was the battle in S. Africa where a couple hundred British soldiers held off and defeated several thousand Zulu warriors). I saw a photo in the paper this morning of a Palestinian celebrating in a Lebanese refugee camp. He was brandishing an M-16 carbine with grenade launcher. Instead of caveat emptor, maybe it ought to be "seller beware" instead. The US is still one of the if not the biggest arms merchants on the planet.

Nukes are not an option. Even though they are quick and decisive, we can't use them. We have made a promise (implicit or explicit doesn't matter) to the world that we would only use them in a nuclear war. Their best use is as a deterrent. To use tactical nukes would be to make their use "acceptable" as a way of waging ordinary war. We can't let that genie out of the bottle. For one thing there are too many warheads sitting in Russia under what kind of security? All we would be doing with nukes is upping the ante and the next thing that would happen is that a plane would appear over Manhatten and detonate a nuke of their own.

But we do have to respond. And it must be a fatal hammer-blow when we do. But it should be a well-aimed strike and one that we are sure will do the job immediately and will set things right for the future. We need our allies with us on this, especially the major OPEC players. Face it, we are an oil-based economy and even if we sucked the ANWR dry it would only supply a few percent of our daily needs. We are not self-sufficient in oil, which is our life-blood, and we are not likely ever to be self-sufficient again, let alone soon. We need therefore to lead the civilized world--all decent nations regardless of religion, race, etc--in a unified fight against terrorism. But we should also look carefully at how we do business in the world and see if there isn't something we can do to create an environment that won't support terrorist groups. This may mean cutting in the masses in our economic colonies for a bigger share of the $$$ pie. Let's try to live up to our highest ideals and start exporting the US Constitution.

Bayboat
09-12-2001, 12:02 PM
This is the substance of what I said to my university class Wednesday morning:

"It was said by more than one news commentator and politician that Tuesday's attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon was like another Pearl Harbor. Well, there were ways the general public could respond to Pearl Harbor. In my case, as a teen-ager I couldn't wait until I was old enough to join the Navy and get into the war. Many others either went into the military, or took up defense jobs, or otherwise participated in what we called the "war effort."

"In today's case the ways we can react are not quite so obvious or easy. Just how can the general public respond to yesterday's attacks? The enemy is elusive--he can't be identified with any surety. We rattle our swords and identify various potential perpetrators, but we aren't sure just what or whom we should go after. So it's frustrating.

"However, there are a few things we can do, while waiting for our leaders to act. At the least we can give blood, or give to the Red Cross or the Salvation Army, or some other agency that is tryig to help the survivors and the families of those who didn't survive.

"In this class I attempt to offer a better understanding of cultures different from ours, and a better knowledge of how they pursue their lives and ways of making a living. But I have no explanation for a culture that could commit such havoc as occurred yesterday, not only in New York and Washington but generally around the country as various security measures were applied to transportation, businesses, schools and other public establishments. In today's world there is a culture of terrorism, which I for one have a hard time understanding. For me it just doesn't compute. It goes beyond political differences, it goes beyond cultural and religious differences, it goes beyond hate.

"Those of you who believe in the power of prayer might want to spend a moment or two in prayer for those who died, for those who were injured, and for all of the families affected."
P.S. Many thanks to Mike Field for the sentiments that he expressed so eloquently.

BrianCunningham
09-12-2001, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by John Gearing:
I have just heard a rumor that "Arab-looking" people are being beaten on the streets of NYC. If true, this is a terrible thing.

They arrested people in Detroit for the same thing. WTF????

Wayne Jeffers
09-12-2001, 02:20 PM
WTF, indeed.

Remember . . . After the bombing in Oklahoma City, the first thought of many Americans was that Islamic militants were to blame and there were a number of ugly incidents against Arab-Americans. One Arab was even dragged back from London by authorities for questioning because he boarded an airplane out of OKC shortly after the blast.

If you will recall, in that instance it turned out to be one of our own right-wing lunatics avenging the earlier acts of our government.

However viscerally satisfying it may be to call for swift military action, I hope our leaders wait until the appropriate facts are known before finally deciding on the appropriate response.

Wayne

phuffstatler
09-12-2001, 03:46 PM
John said....

But we do have to respond. And it must be a fatal hammer-blow when we do. But it should be a well-aimed strike and one that we are sure will do the job immediately and will set things right for the future. We need our allies with us on this, especially the major OPEC players. Face it, we are an oil-based economy and even if we sucked the ANWR dry it would only supply a few percent of our daily needs. We are not self-sufficient in oil, which is our life-blood, and we are not likely ever to be self-sufficient again, let alone soon. We need therefore to lead the civilized world--all decent nations regardless of religion, race, etc--in a unified fight against terrorism. But we should also look carefully at how we do business in the world and see if there isn't something we can do to create an environment that won't support terrorist groups. This may mean cutting in the masses in our economic colonies for a bigger share of the $$$ pie. Let's try to live up to our highest ideals and start exporting the US Constitution.

And I say:

If oil is our "life-blood" and they control it, why not change to something else? We have the technology for other much more effecient forms of propulsion. If we don't buy it, they can't make any profits from us. Then, we don't need them. What a great opportunity! We as a nation have put up with so much crap from them for so long, for the sake of that oil. I hope this is the final blow that will make America wake up and do something about it. I don't mean to sound like an Isolationist or something, but it's a great chance to change the way we look at our own world and make some changes for the better.

In my own anger, I would like to turn the whole area over there into a greasy spot. That's why I'm not the Prez... http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

Dreamin' Phil

BrianCunningham
09-12-2001, 04:05 PM
We don't import oil from Afgan

Hugh Paterson
09-12-2001, 04:10 PM
Bob Cleek.
Jesus Bob, hit it on the nail, still does not make it right, but the simple truth is the people that carried out this act dont think like us, and dont mind dying in the act
to let us all know that, how do u fight that?

Bob Cleek
09-12-2001, 06:04 PM
You can't fight it, Hugh, that's the whole point. (My second post was somewhat rhetorical, if not sarcastic.) THEY WANT US TO RETALIATE! They want us to keep playing the bully. Doing so will strengthen their popular position immeasurably and expand their base of support. Probably all that can be done at present is to bring world pressure down on "host" nations, if that. We DID retaliate with force for the Achille Lauro hijacking, remember? Bombed the crap out of Kaddahfi's pad and did nothing more than kill one of his little kids. Score ZERO for the US on that one. All that accomplished was confirming to the Third World that Reagan was every bit the "cowboy" they'd claimed he was. If and when we identify the individual culprits, you take them out. Ten more will replace them. Like the proverbial dragon's teeth. There is no more invincible adversary than somebody with nothing to lose. You kill him and you've taken nothing from him; you've won nothing. Kill somebody who thinks he's going to Valhalla if he dies for a cause and you do him a favor. (Remember the kamakazis?) Give an enemy something to live for and you have leverage. Guys with a future aren't going to be so quick to off themselves flying planes into skyscrapers. (Which, BTW, is what the "American Dream" is all about and why so many people bust their butts to come and live here... HOPE!) Until then, terrorists will continue to fight the most powerful nation in the world with the only weapons they have to fight with, weapons against which we really have little or no defense.

"War mongering" is pointless, much as my own anger leads me to feel the same way. It is the understandable emotional reaction to a terrible attack which, more than anything, graphically illustrated how really powerless we are. "It's the economy, stupid." It always was. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor not because they wanted war with the US, but because they wanted to preemptively strike the Pacific Fleet in order to permit their invasions in the Western Pacific. Those were necessary because WE cut off their raw materials supplies. America ought to listen to a replay of Eisenhower's famous speech, warning America at the end of WWII that the "Military/Industrial Complex" was really the greatest threat to America's freedom. We won WWII and ended the Great Depression in one fell swoop, but in doing so, we created a monster: a US controlled global economy. Now, some fifty years later, and after our enjoying billions and billions of dollars worth of "good living" largely at the expense of the rest of the world, Americans may have to reconsider whether the price of making the world safe for Coca Cola, General Motors and Microsoft is worth the price the people we have "just taken it from" are charging us these days. Maybe it is... I'm not saying it isn't, but feeling outraged at the actions of folks who "hate America" really doesn't address the underlying question: "How come?" How would YOU feel about the good old USA after a few years of watching "Dallas" re-runs on a battery powered black and white TV on an empty stomach in a hovel in Ramallah?

NOTHING justifies the actions these terrorists have taken (just as nothing justified the firebombing of Dresden), but if we are going to do ANYTHING productive to keep it from ever happening again, we first need to take a hard look at what causes people to do the things they have done. I don't think the "Ugly American" has gotten any better looking in his old age.

Greg H
09-12-2001, 06:14 PM
You got it Bob.

True Love
09-12-2001, 06:54 PM
To Mr. Martin Schulz (& I use the term "Mr." graciously):

I hope I never find you next to me in a foxhole - but then, I wouldn't, would I?

60 years ago, would you have had us welcome the Nazis into the US as well? (Oh, I know, you're ready for that question too, right? And no, I don't mention it because of your location in Germany - I'd have said it no matter where you might reside.) NO WAY then, buddy, and NO WAY now w/these terrorists. But you don't have to worry, you won't be risking loved ones. You haven't lost people in the last 24 hours that you've loved and admired and respected. No, you sit in your office and calmly mock us. That dog just doesn't hunt, honey.

TL

dasboat
09-12-2001, 07:08 PM
Hey ole boy,I may be totally misunderstanding your point.
I've done that before,and I'm sure I'll do it again.
Retalliation aint the same as bullying!
Retalliation is a judgemental term for defending.

Lets defend ourselves to the hilt.The fact that they want us to do something should have nothing to do with what it is we choose to do.
This is not a game of who can be more clever,but it is a contest between good and evil.
Is there anyone there who still believes in good vs. evil,w/o the acedemic crap of gradations???
Das

Noah
09-12-2001, 07:25 PM
Well-stated Bob. I sincerely wish that the president or someone in Power would acknowledge this. With W playing tough it only typifies the American stereotype to the rest of the world. We can still act tough, and go about an investigation to find the people behind it, but I wished that we could also show the world that we can think, and recognize our own problems as well as others.

The whole world thinks we are cowboys, lets prove to them that we aren't. Much of the cowboy mentality has gotten us to where we are (both good and bad) but the truly inspirational American leaders have also done some real thinking, and shown the world that they/we can do more than just kick ass.
I hope that now we can go about solving this problem (terrorism) for good. I don’t think that solely relying on the military to accomplish this will work. For us and the rest of the world, we need to come up with a real solution. One that won’t be a temporary fix.

Noah

True Love
09-12-2001, 07:52 PM
Dear Noah,

I believe Bush will weigh and measure what we will or will not do once he learns who's behind this. I don't think you're giving him enough credit - my humble, but honest, opinion.

I do believe there are times, and this is one of those times, when we take the head of the snake as well as the body.

Are we likely to suffer terrorist activity again? Perhaps, but I doubt that would change even if we did nothing. These folks have a desire to kill Americans, period. They've said it outright. I've no doubt that they mean it. I'm not going down without a fight for freedom. I didn't land the first blow (WTC 1). I didn't land the second blow (WTC 2). I didn't land the third blow (The Pentagon). And, I didn't land the forth blow (downed plane in Pennsylvania). But after taking 4 hits for simply standing for freedom, openness, an active and free press, and representative government, I'll be damned if I'm not going to defend and protect myself and that also means, my country.

TL

John Gearing
09-12-2001, 08:03 PM
Gee, Bob C has said just about the same thing that ole Martin was saying, albeit in his own elegant way. So is everyone going to tell Bob off the way we just did Martin? Thought not. Wonder why.

Ed Harrow
09-12-2001, 08:18 PM
I had a brief, but interesting conversation tonight with an individual who once worked for one of the three-letter Federal, ummmm, organizations.

When I laid out my interpretation as to how we came to find ourselves in this particular place, said party didn't deny my thought process, but simply said "We brought it upon ourselves, and I for one, am damn bitter about it. Always asked to do more with less. High-value people, those with "tribal knowledge", those with an indepth understanding of the ways of these individuals were ASKED to retire. This is the price we paid for those who don't want to pay." (This is a pretty acurate, tho not perfect quote.)

As Bob said so eloquently, as Martin has attempted to say, as my source said, we brought this upon ourselves. Each may be saying this from a slightly different perspective, but the root cause can be found within us.

Once upon a time we could live fat, dumb, and happy, and the curtain was drawn so high that those who lived skinny, dumb, and happy never knew. Throw into this diabolic cauldron a displaced people who are being toyed with and used by those who should help them, and the stage is well set. The daily life on the gaza strip has come to America...

As Bob and my contact said, we can swat those that bubble up, but there's plenty more in that cauldron to take their place. That cauldron will not come off its boil until we can eliminate either the fuel, the oxidizer, or the ignition source.

Having said all that, if I had Bin Laden in cross hairs I'd pull the trigger on general principles.

What does that make me?

paladin
09-12-2001, 08:18 PM
Approx 20 percent of our oil comes from IRAN, gee did you know that?....15% comes from Mexico......about 12% from Venezuela and the rest from the Saudis/Emerites....Guess who are the major contributors to the Bin Laden treasury....some Saudi Princes...are we going to ask for their heads...Naw..we don't wanna embarras the KING>

True Love
09-12-2001, 08:21 PM
John,

I didn't "tell Martin off." I responded to his numerous posts on page 1 of this segment because I strongly, disagree with him and find the tenor of his posts offensive. I'm not ashamed of that.

I hadn't read Bob Cleek's post above on page 4 until after responding to Martin.

In fact, after reading Bob's post, I was thinking about responding, so I'll go ahead and do that now.

Bob - I respect and admire your contributions regarding wooden boat building on this Forum. I have learned so much from you and always value your informative posts on the subject of wooden boats. You are witty, creative, articulate and I'm so glad you're back on the Forum after your brief hiatus. I would love to meet you some day and shake your hand.

Yet I must strongly disagree with your point of view re: this thread. And I think I've stated clearly why.

Now John, I find it amazing that you folks who claim to be so magnanimous and tolerant are so quick to call those of us who differ from your point of view on various issues, rude, or hotheads; and I don't appreciate the air of haughtyness that comes with it. I'm simply sharing my point of view and my strong feelings as did Martin and Bob and you and Das Boat and everyone else on this Forum.

Like it or love it, that's joy of this free society.

Regards,

TL

Bruce Taylor
09-12-2001, 08:27 PM
Is there anyone there who still believes in good vs. evil,w/o the acedemic crap of gradations???

Yes, Das -- Hamas, the Hezbollah, the Taliban, Islamic Jihad. They all believe in dispensing with the details, the academic crap, the gradations. Like fundamentalists everywhere, they think they know who sides with Satan.

If we must go to war against them (and, unlike Bob, I fear we must) we have to offer an alternative to their mad righteousness. That alternative lies in our history of political freedom, our faith in reason, our reliance on elected government, and our willingness to put moral questions up to the trial of public discussion.

Ruddigore
09-12-2001, 09:20 PM
I truly hope W issues the orders to start fresh over there, literally a sand parking lot. If this isn't the reason for nukes I don't know what is...........this is war and in war there is no civility http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/mad.gif

dasboat
09-12-2001, 09:33 PM
Right Bruce!
Fundamentals do not equate with fundamentalists.
It is fundamental that truth is by it's very nature asking only for the liberty of appearing.
Like the laws of physics,no amount of debate will change them.
A belief in motion tends to stay in motion with a constant velocity and direction unless acted upon by another belief.

Despensing with the details as in ignoring acedemic doubletalk,or despensing with the details as in avoiding the unnecessary complication of observable outcomes clinically made?
Religious fundamentalists believe they know who sides with them,clinical fundamentalists ask only to learn from what has been observed as working.Acedemic papers written to impress others with ones intelligence are wasteful of our precious time as we attempt to relieve the world of the evil that took so many lives here last tues.

Do you believe there is(in a secular sense) good and evil in this world that can be defined?
Do you belive that some behaviors are wrong regardless of context?
I wrestle with these questions and have not settled on an answer that I trust completely.What is your view of these questions?
Das

Scott Rosen
09-12-2001, 09:50 PM
Oh boy.

Bob, I think your wrong. I won't say I think you're full of ****, because I respect you and because you are not saying what you are saying just to bait us, or with indifference to our trauma. You can't say we can't fight it, because we've never really tried. We've tried to hide from it, and we now know that doesn't work.

Degrees of evil? Who cares? When someone is shooting at you, the time for sticking a thermometer up the rear end of the devil is long past.

John, in another post you cited a litany of American foreign policy mistakes. Or were they all mistakes? The alternatives could have been worse.

Ed, if you think what this is about is bringing the Gaza Strip to the US . . . well, you know what I would say to that. Maybe you don't. Read up a little on the history of Middle Eastern terror. You'll find some surprising things. Arabs were committing terror against Jews before there was a state of Israel. Palestinians were commiting terror against Israelis before the Israelis occupied any of the West Bank or Gaza. After Israel won in '67 and took over the West Bank, many Palestinians fled to Jordan. The Jordanians, instead of welcoming them, forcibly expelled the Palestinians from Jordan, because they wanted to make it Israel's problem. When the Palestinians resited, the Jordanians simply gunned them down and ran them out. In other words, the Gaza strip was burning with hate long before the first US dollar ever got sent to Israel. And finally, (I've got to add this for the benefit of our British friends, who surely remember the truth) the Jews of Palestine commited terror against the British to get the British out. And the British committed some of their own, too.

I'm sorry to say that many of you don't recognize pure, unadulterated hate when you see it. Your view of human nature is so benevolent that you even attribute the murders of women and children with some kind of rational, justifiable motive. You have an unrealistic notion that America is at the center of the Universe, that evil would not ever surface if only America had done something else. Sorry to say, we don't have the power to eliminate evil.

I guess I stand with the hard-liners on this. You shoot at me and my friends, I'm gonna do whatever I have to do to protect us. I'll clean up the mess when the shooting stops and maybe even figure out a way to make the world a better place. Isn't that the American way?

dasboat
09-12-2001, 10:04 PM
Don,I hope you will not despair.You were there and watched it all happen.That is not easy for anyone.
I appreciate your sharing your observations with the forum,and am glad you were able to make your way home.
Though we have differed in our view of many things,I do value your oppinion and your intelligent contributions to the forum.
There is love in this world,and there is enough to go around.
Regards,das

Bob Cleek
09-12-2001, 10:14 PM
Oh, God... It's deja vu all over again. "Love it or leave it!" Hoooo-rah!

Don't think for a minute that I am "tolerant" or "understanding" in some warm fuzzy way. My observations (which don't make much matter no-how except as food for thought in this buffet) are coldly PRAGMATIC. Wake up and smell the coffee, guys! The airwaves are full of propaganda from the CNN Ministry of Information! All that "this is war" talk is being tossed around to keep the American people focused for political reasons... by a bunch of very scared politicians who KNOW that they'd be hung drawn and quartered if the country really knew as much as the have known all along: Our ass has been hanging out for years and there was never anything we could do about it! Every grunt in the boonies knew the "war" in Vietnam never was winable to begin with, but the People were told otherwise... gotta make the world safe for democracy. (Sound familiar?) You can't win a war if you don't know who the enemy is or where the enemy's at. You win wars by a) killing all the enemy and/or b) capturing all their territory. You can't know who the next terrorist is and they don't care about holding ground. Terrorists are like that, you know.

Anybody notice how you don't see any real cops or firemen or anybody talking about how bad it really is on those "live" broadcasts? Practically no interviews with anybody who has lost a loved one (except for the Mom whose son heroically gave his life to prevent a fourth disaster, God bless him.) Only an occasional civilian Red Cross volunteer or a hard-hat or two when they can catch them, the inevitable "public information officer" and political "talking head." Can it be that nobody in NY knew any of the thousands that must be dead? It is all so well packaged for us with "film at eleven." Close ups of the dust and trash in the streets, the crumpled steel, the Tonka Toys tearing into it, and the damn plane crashing into the building over and over. But has anybody seen a BODY PART on CNN? It is, oh, so sanitized. "This didn't happen to PEOPLE, it happened to AMERICA UNDER ATTACK!" You don't think the NYC disaster managers have any better idea of how many are dead and missing than "probably thousands." All they have to do is add up who didn't come home from work last night! Same goes for the Pentagon... you ever try to get inside that building without a sign-in pass? Damn straight they could come closer than "somewhere between 200 and 800!" They know exactly how many people were in there and who hasn't reported in. Oddly reminiscent of the news blackouts of American casualties early in WWII, isn't it? Long shots of the Shaw blowing sky high on December 7 got everybody to "Remember Pearl Harbor," but when the censors finally got around to allowing publication of that shot of the back of the helmeted GI washing ashore on Tarawa, after every kid in Iowa had enlisted, the glory of war started to get a little old!

Does anybody seriously believe that the US intelligence "community" hasn't been keeping tabs on every Arab who comes here to take 747 flying classes? Do you really think they hadn't anticipated the scenario of somebody flying a hijacked jumbo jet into someplace sensitive... like maybe the WTC or the Pentagon? The counter-terrorist establishment has been doing all they can to prevent this for years... and knowing all along it could never be enough. They dodged the bullet at the Space Needle on Y2K, a few other incidents as well, but you can't bat 1.000 against terrorists forever.

Our leaders are doing their best to try to keep the USA on an even keel while she is taking water. I've heard Colin Powell speak candidly, in person, and he is NOT a stupid guy or a militaristic war monger. He is a brilliant guy who has been briefed up the wazoo for the last twenty years on stuff that is so classified they keep the paperclips on it in a triple locked safe. The entire intelligence system in this country and elsewhere has been holding their breath waiting for something like this to jump off for years. Granted, they may have hoped against hope it wasn't going to be this bad, but it sure wasn't any surprise. They could hardly WARN people about the risks... to what purpose? (So everybody is scared to fly and the airlines file Chapter 11!)

Even if you believe that the US does not indulge in political assassination these days, do you think Bin Ladin would still be sucking air if anybody could get to him? Do you think the Moussad let him slide out of respect for our American sense of fair play?

"American Interests" have nothing to do with "freedom" and "liberty" outside our borders. Globally, "American Interests" have everything to do with business, finance and profits. The military and financial hearts of America were targeted for the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks... that's where the money is. These terrorists were not out to "kill Americans." They were out to "COST America." Billions and billions and billions of dollars. Sad as it is to say, in a few weeks the candle-in-a-dixie-cup memorial marches will be forgotten by all but those whose loved ones are gone, and the intended damage that is going to cause us all far greater problems will remain. The stock markets of the world are tanking... the poor just got a little closer to the rich. Making speeches about "acts of war" and "retaliation" will be the easy part for the political figureheads. The guy who has the biggest headache in America right now is Greenspan... and we are all about to come down with the flu he's got.

This isn't to say the scum who are behind this are in any way pursuing a noble cause on behalf of the world's poor. Like the Nazi's, they are in it for selfish reasons of their own. BUT, they cannot achieve their own pursuit of power without twisting the fears and pain of people to their own ends. Hitler and his mob rode into power on the back of the worldwide depression of the 1920's and the runnaway inflation of the failed Weimar Republic. They NEVER would have succeeded, had they not had the fear of the German people to prey upon and manipulate. Consider, at this moment, the way the Nazi's blamed their own burning of the Reichstag on the Communists and secured the support of an outraged German people.

The EMOTIONS we all feel at this time make our leaders so very vulnerable to doing something that plays into the terrorists hands. The sooner the American people stop clamoring for our leaders to "do something" in retaliation and start supporting them in a considered evaluation of the situation, the sooner something constructive can be done without political distractions.

To those who cry for vengeance, I must ask... "Play the movie out to the end..." HOW do you really propose we do anything effective against suicidal maniacs with nothing to lose, sent against us by manipulative evil doers? The only way to beat the Bin Ladins of the world is to disarm them. The only way to do that is to give the suicide bombers something better to live for than to die for.

If the victors of WWI had not left Germany to starve, very literally, Hitler would have been 86'd from that Munich beer hall at the start. The US, Britain and France were all too busy protecting their own "interests," financial, that is. Turned out to be a very bad business decision, to be sure. Neville Chamberlain was a day late and a dollar short when he "bought peace in our time!" He should have invested his money in the German economy years earlier, as we proved with the Marshall Plan the second time around!

This terrorist menace hasn't gone away in the last 20 years. A military solution is impossible, not that we haven't tried, quiet as that's been kept. There is nothing to shoot at that stays dead when you hit it. The only way to stop it is to end its reason for being.

Ed Harrow
09-12-2001, 10:30 PM
Bob, well spoken. That's why you're a lawyer and I'm not.


Originally posted by Ed Harrow:
...Throw into this diabolic cauldron a displaced people who are being toyed with and used by those who should help them, and the stage is well set. The daily life on the gaza strip has come to America...

Scott, you clearly speak better to fifty plus years of history "Ed, if you think what this is about is bringing the Gaza Strip to the US . . . well, you
know what I would say to that. Maybe you don't. Read up a little on the history of
Middle Eastern terror. You'll find some surprising things. Arabs were committing
terror against Jews before there was a state of Israel. Palestinians were commiting
terror against Israelis before the Israelis occupied any of the West Bank or Gaza.
After Israel won in '67 and took over the West Bank, many Palestinians fled to
Jordan. The Jordanians, instead of welcoming them, forcibly expelled the
Palestinians from Jordan, because they wanted to make it Israel's problem. When the
Palestinians resited, the Jordanians simply gunned them down and ran them out. In
other words, the Gaza strip was burning with hate long before the first US dollar ever
got sent to Israel. And finally, (I've got to add this for the benefit of our British friends,
who surely remember the truth) the Jews of Palestine commited terror against the
British to get the British out. And the British committed some of their own, too." than my condensed version. Thank you.

Frank Wentzel
09-12-2001, 10:31 PM
I feel as much anger as anyone about yesterday’s attack, but in a slightly different point of view from Bob and Martin - I offer this for thought:

It is clear that attacks on the US will not instill fear or cause us to retreat from our principles. There has been no call to attempt to appease the attackers.

It is also abundantly clear the attackers will not back down regardless of the amount of destruction we rain upon them.

Bin Laden has taken out thousands – I assume the US will do the same. I can’t say I find the prospect of vengeance unattractive. Indeed, I believe that we must take out this group because they are so effective and so well organized. If they are permitted to live, they will use their experience to plan attacks that are even more murderous.

However, when Bin Laden and his organization are dead, does anyone seriously think that the dragon’s teeth will not bear fruit? If whatever “logic” motivates these fanatics continues, we will continue to have attacks. I think we are almost powerless to prevent them. Larger airports serve as many as 75,000 passengers a day. Screening them thoroughly is impossible. For example, consider that Gerber makes a ceramic knife blade that is x-ray transparent. Consider this next time you are on the road; every panel truck is potentially a 3 ton bomb. Think of the potential worst case – a stolen Russian nuke in a shipping container of Nike sneakers, Korean refrigerators, or Taiwanese woodworking tools.

We must learn how these people think and how to get off this spiral of hate. We are ill equipped to fight a vendetta (and nobody wins in a vendetta). The US is a clear, easy target trying to fight an almost invisible enemy. Our only chance is to root out the cause and try to find a solution. Can the solution be any more unpalatable than what we lost yesterday – maybe 5,000 lives and half a trillion dollars in damages? I am not talking appeasement or paying tribute - that is only an invitation for continued extortion. We must find a true mutual solution. After WWII we helped our enemies (less their heinous leaders) rebuild. Can we not look for some viable alternatives in this case?

/// Frank ///

Mike Field
09-12-2001, 11:11 PM
Bob, thanks for that. I think you're absolutely right.

paladin
09-12-2001, 11:44 PM
and BOB! I really am retired. You could say it's because I can't run as fast as I used too....or am too damn big to hide in closets (probably sweet things answer) but one of the biggest things I work with these days is a .22..........on rabbits and crows....but I never understood making pies out of crows..

Mirelle
09-13-2001, 04:54 AM
May I say that I agree with Bob?

When this happened, there was an incipient financial panic in the Far East; would the Dollar clearing system still work? It was over in a couple of hours. The financial system did not falter, because the Federal Reserve requires all its member banks to have back up systems in place for US$ clearing; they switched in faultessly.

Let us not under-estimate the depth of resources and the thoroughness of the United States.

Mirelle
09-13-2001, 05:08 AM
TV footage of children and adults in parts of the Middle East "celebrating" these events should not be taken at face value; I hav seen, with my own eyes, a CNN camera crew work up a crowd, in another part of the world, until they got the footage they wanted - which aired that night.

paladin
09-13-2001, 08:34 AM
and if you had been in Iraq just prior to the invasion of Kuwait you would see those same crowds crying for U.S. blood, but just out of camera range you would see soldiers with guns herding the crowds toward the cameras, and sweet thing said by e-mail that they are shoing tapes of U.S. stores with empty shelves and no food and the money changers refusing to take American dollars unless it is offerred tremendously undervalued....the s.o.b.s are making monbey out of chaos...........like she said...we have a cellar full of food etc.....

Tom Dugan
09-13-2001, 09:01 AM
I think it's important to recognize what's going on here, on these pages. We've all been shocked and horrified, and each have their own reactions. The initial knee-jerk responses will over time become more tempered. This is playing out in this thread, I think.

What's also important to recognize is that it'll be easy to slip into despair if we're not vigilant. Fighting despair may be as simple as airing your feelings, giving blood, or giving money. But we all need to remember the danger that despair breeds, and to fight it.

There are no easy answers, obviously, but I think it's important to keep talking through this with our friends. Praise be to WoodenBoat for providing the neighborhood!

It seems clear (to me at least) that we're dealing with two different types of opponent here. The first are the manipulated. The second are the manipulators. IMHO (a term I don't see too often these days http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif ), we should provide alternatives for the first group. And wipe the second from the face of the earth. We shall see what we shall see.

-T

Ed Harrow
09-13-2001, 10:03 AM
This book, Chrysanthemum and the Sword : Patterns of Japanese Culture
by Ruth Benedict was recommended to me by Wayne, I think, before I went to Japan in Feb.

Ruth researched the book as the war in the Pacific was winding down, under the direction of the OSS, to help us, as an entering and occupying force in Japan, to understand the Japanese view.

It was understood that to best effect the military effort an intimate knowledge of the people, their history, and their customs, was required.

To effect a resolution here, the same must be done. Here is one piece that I have picked up. I am not a middle-eastern scholar, and I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this information.

HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment
of the modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make
it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish Refugees:
In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent
left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be
around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated
to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the
only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated
into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed
into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.
13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West
Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible
to people of all faiths.
16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against
Israel.
17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

As Tom says, and as others have said, there are manipulators, and there are the manipulated. It seems evident to me which is the target, but as long as we're tied to the oil pipeline, and the funds flowing into these lands as a consequence, the chances of located said targets and dealing with them is, perhaps, more limited than we might like.

Ken Hall
09-13-2001, 10:31 AM
Mr. Cleek has given us a valuable cautionary tale. It's all well and good to talk about exterminatin' the vermin (let me state for the record that it needs doing, regarding the perpetrators and financiers), but we should move from hot wrath to cold anger (to paraphrase Tolkien in Farmer Giles of Ham and consider carefully objectives and outcomes.

The point about the Marshall Plan is particularly well made. The question to be asked now is this: How much of the success of the Marshall Plan can be attributed to the "shock to the system" imposed by several years of destruction followed by unconditional surrender?

I'm just a simple unfrozen caveman boatbuilder wannabe. Your 21st Century geopolitics and interdependent relationships frighten me. But it seems to me that there is something psychologically effective about defeating someone so thoroughly that unconditional surrender is preferable to enduring any more, and then extending the hand of mercy and aiding in recovery.

It kept the peace after 1865 and 1945. I grant you, the presence of people with sufficient standing to ask their folks to stand down and have it stick (Robert E. Lee, Emperor Hirohito) was a big help.

Alan D. Hyde
09-13-2001, 10:33 AM
These recent terrorist acts are acts of war.

Money is the sinews of war.

We must disable the terrorist organizations responsible from continuing to act, AND we must disable their chain-of-command (likely Saddam Hussein through Osama bin Laden) from continuing to support them financially and otherwise, by removing them from power.

None of this is shortsighted, or predicated on vengence or even on punishment.

It simply represents a reasonable attempt to prevent a recurrence of these horrible acts.

Alan

P.S. One of the best American military minds in our history, Douglas MacArthur, defined defensive strategists in one word: "Losers."

dasboat
09-13-2001, 10:34 AM
Thanks Ed.
That is well worth the time to read.
das

Alan D. Hyde
09-13-2001, 11:33 AM
don-------

I am delighted to hear that you and yours have endured.

Now, despite our many differences of opinion as individuals, let us adhere strongly to the commom principles of liberty, humanity, and democracy in which we all believe.

Let us re-build New York, let us strengthen ourselves as a nation, and, with God's help, let us prevail.

Alan

dasboat
09-13-2001, 12:08 PM
5 firefighters found alive in the rubble of the towers.Thank God.

adampet
09-14-2001, 07:40 AM
Not to be too morbid, but a few thoughts have been floating around my head for the last few days.
What if one of the planes had been carrying a nuclear bomb? We wouldn't be talking about thousands dead, but hundreds of thousands.The perimeter of the disaster would be in NJ not NY. Could we stop someone who was that committed and willing to kill that many people? How would we retaliate, if we couldn't find them?
If we have defended the last attack(truck bombs) and now tighten security at airports, what's the next escalation of terror attacks?
I can't be the only one thinking these things, hopefully the people who get paid to, are .
Thanks for all the discussion, here and everywhere, it makes life easier in some way. Helps us remember this is a HUMAN tragedy . Thanks all.

ken mcclure
09-14-2001, 08:25 AM
My understanding is that you can now fit a nuclear weapon in a suitcase. A biological weapon would fit in a jar. A chemical weapon in jars.

It looks like the people of the flight that crashed here in PA did a heroic thing that the rest of us can only wish we would be able to do. And in doing so, they died. They knew what was at stake, and they were willing to give up their lives to accomplish what they believed.

Terrorists are also willing to give up their lives for their "cause." This is one of the reasons why terrorism is so hard to combat.

You can be sure that virtually all of the world governments are thinking of these things. And they have been for quite some time. Until this week, they've done a pretty good job of balancing the need for vigilance with the constraints of shrinking budgets.

I think that's all changed. We have some pretty resourceful people out there. Given the money and the tools, I think we'll see a blow to terrorism that they've never imagined.

Don Olney
09-11-2003, 08:21 AM
In light of the events of the past two years, I guess this thread is worth re-reading.

Hughman
09-11-2003, 08:36 AM
Don,
This thread is how I first heard of this event, I read it minutes after you posted it. I didn't reply at the time, couldn't, really.

It is permanately in the "where were you when you heard about" memory catagory, if you know what I mean.

So, while we've never met, I will remember your name for this post.

Hope we do meet sometime. Hugh

Concordia..41
09-11-2003, 08:36 AM
Amen.

Edited to add that this was the first place I turned also. We were on the road, having driven to Ohio for Dave's father's funeral. A stranger at the hotel let me use his AOL account to get online.

The first thread I opened was one from Brian Cunningham that posted the poingnant graphic of the eagle with a tear superimposed over the burning towers. It was somehow comforting to know that things were ok here.

I'm off for now to enjoy the sunshine. Re-reading these posts has hit upon some deep emotions.

Regards all -
M

[ 09-11-2003, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Concordia..41 ]

LeeG
09-11-2003, 08:48 AM
Don, thanks for posting this.

Joe (SoCal)
09-11-2003, 08:50 AM
Hard to believe I wasn't a part of this great forum at the time. I just skimmed through most of it, I will not pass judgment on some of the insensitive obscene posts, surfice to say it is obvious the usual suspects had there minds set before this tragedy occurred. I do know I have learned more about international politics and galvanized my world view through this forum. I thank you all for being here and thank you all for putting up with me. On days like this it is important to be able to reach out and feel your world, your community. You are all a part of my world part of my community.

Jonathan Kabak
09-11-2003, 09:01 AM
There is a strange feeling in the air as I sit in my office on 34th street in New York City. Chuck Scarborough a local News Anchor said something this morning that struck a chord. He remembered that the weather today is just about the same as it was two years ago. Another perfect day in September. I hate to admit the fact that I feel as thought I am holding my breath until today passes. I am sailing as captain on the schooner Pioneer tonight out in New York Harbor. Last night they lite the shafts of light at ground zero, tonight will be something special as well. At the same time however I sort of just want it to be tomorrow...so that I can exhale.

JK

Alan D. Hyde
09-11-2003, 09:58 AM
We must never forget. In remembering, we must learn, and from our learning must continue to come swift and decisive acts not of vengeance, but of justice and deterrence.

In War: Resolution
In Defeat: Defiance
In Victory: Magnanimity
In Peace: Goodwill

The Motto of Sir Winston S. Churchill

***

Alan

Jim H
09-11-2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Don Olney:
In light of the events of the past two years, I guess this thread is worth re-reading.I've re-read this thread a few times since. Thanks Don, glad to see you're still around.

Ed Harrow
09-11-2003, 01:56 PM
Reading thru this relives all the emotions, and more, seeing dasboat's words. Funny how one's words live on...

Steve McMahon
09-11-2003, 04:05 PM
I was on the road all day today and just got home. It was moving to see flags everywhere at half mast.

Tar Devil
09-11-2007, 11:07 AM
Bump, in remembrance.

Bob Cleek
09-11-2007, 02:54 PM
Like we need a "bump" to remember. Looks like it all played out like I expected. Reading over the posts, I was surprised to see how right we all were... and how wrong the politicians continue to be! I figured it for a "no win" situation the day it started and now, years later, it's only worse. Go figger!

Bob Adams
09-11-2007, 05:05 PM
Like we need a "bump" to remember. Looks like it all played out like I expected. Reading over the posts, I was surprised to see how right we all were... and how wrong the politicians continue to be! I figured it for a "no win" situation the day it started and now, years later, it's only worse. Go figger!

Norm's post was downright spooky in it's prediction.

jack grebe
09-11-2007, 05:15 PM
wow, talk about memory lane.......so many have come and gone

LeeG
09-11-2007, 06:31 PM
no kidding, and Alans advocacy to get Osama through Saddam is fascinating.

abbyj
09-11-2008, 09:46 AM
Silence

Tylerdurden
09-11-2008, 09:48 AM
Silence

Dredge operator in a past life?

Phillip Allen
09-11-2008, 09:51 AM
my public radio station just pushed the alert button and went right back to regular programing (no comment at all)

abbyj
09-11-2008, 10:01 AM
Just checked the local paper ( Boston Globe affiliate) front page archive.

This is the first year since 9/11, That A front, let alone second page acknowledgement of the events of 9/11.

The only mention, was a one paragraph editorial.

abbyj
09-11-2008, 10:05 AM
Should this get a "sticky" for today :rolleyes: