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Ronald Rosen
09-13-2001, 09:35 AM
There is a massive amount of nonsense and garbage being spewed forth on the news by people and so called news analysts of the Martin Shulz ilk. There is not a free nation on the face of this earth that does not owe its existence to the Unted States of AMERICA. We the people of this nation have answered the call when our friends and allies were about to be extinguished. Our former enemies are now our allies.They know it and we know it. If in our hour of need they do not stand by us with everything they have including their lives and national treasure it will be a setback to world peace beyond calculation. I would expect our allies (and former enemies ) to wade in with everything they have. Truly UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE BURN.

Bruce Taylor
09-13-2001, 09:46 AM
Something like 500 Canadians died in these attacks. You are us, we are you. I believe most members of NATO feel the same.

Mike Field
09-13-2001, 10:06 AM
Ronald, I'm pleased to see you here. You might have seen on an earlier post, in response to a post of Scott's in the thread about daughters, that I congratulated you for past actions concerning the way you handled the kids after your marriage breakup.

So it grieves me to have to take exception to your statements here.

I'm a friend of the US. My country is a friend of the US. But despite "All the way with LBJ," we do not owe our existence to the US.

We've certainly appreciated your assistance in the past -- perhaps we will again, if you're willing to give it. You've appreciated assistance from other countries in the past, too. The whole circle of civilised nations, indeed, relies for support on other members of the group. What are friends for, after all?

The "former enemies" you referred to include Germany. I'm not clear whether Germany can be considered an ally nowadays or not, but certainly they're no longer an enemy.

In particular, Martin is not an enemy -- neither of yours nor of ours. Martin, in my view, is an enlightened member of his country and of his generation -- one who has struggled, I think successfully, with an enormous burden of guilt he inherited, along with all of today's Germans, from his country's Nazi past.

In contributing here, he is, I believe, doing his best to help Americans in this time of grief and anguish. I've said elsewhere that perhaps the timing of his message is a bit out, but I've also advanced a hypothesis, so far unrefuted, as to why that might be. Perhaps you don't indeed want his help, despite what you've said above. I don't think too many Australians would be knocking back assistance under similar circumstances, though, no matter from which quarter it came, provided it was well-intentioned.

In my view, after the **** that's been heaped on Martin here in the last few days, he can hardly be blamed for thinking that perhaps, after all, you Americans are not really worth his efforts.

Ronald Rosen
09-13-2001, 10:13 AM
Mike I have not heard Martin say we Americans are not worth his efforts.
Perhaps it is you who think we are not worth his efforts.

Ed Harrow
09-13-2001, 10:21 AM
Five.

Personal, ad homien attacks have no place here...

mmd
09-13-2001, 12:15 PM
Ref: Ed Harrow's comments: I agree that vitriol directed at individuals should be curtailed. If everyone is required to adopt a "you're either with us completely or completely against us" stance, who will be the voice of reason and moderation on either side?

I do agree that the USA has been grievously wronged, and that the perpetrators of the outrages need to be brought to justice. However, I don't believe that a vindictive, indiscriminate, "nuke the bastards" approach will be effective nor is appropriate. I'm confident that the percentage of people in Baghdad or Kabul who are not supporters of terrorism is just about the same as the percentage of Americans who are decent, honest, and peace-loving people. Carefully, calmly, and deliberately deal with the criminal; it will do no good to destroy innocent people whose only crime is that they happen to live on the same block as the bad guy.

Please stop trashing forumites who venture to express a different point of view. It unfortunately aids in perpetuating the myth of the "ugly American", and most of us know that you all are not really like that.

Mike Field
09-13-2001, 10:16 PM
You're quite, Ronald. Sorry. I should have said, ",,,he could hardly be blamed,,,"

dasboat
09-13-2001, 10:45 PM
Mike,with respect,Martin is not a child.He can speak for himself.
Categorizing all the "****" heaped upon him as all that he got back is not true.Several posts differed with martin in a courteous manner.It was not one sided.
Das

Mike Field
09-14-2001, 12:06 AM
Das, that's quite right, and true of most of us here. And by no means was I implying that everyone's comments have been anti-Martin. Clearly they were not. But regretfully, many were.

I happen to think that you Amercians have had a very rough time in the last few days. So I've given you a good deal of sympathy, a certain amount of empathy, some comments that were intended to be constructive, and many hours of my time over the last few days. I've done this because most of you are my friends, because I think you needed support at this sad time, and because I wanted to do the little that was mine to command to help.

Please note, I did not take the approach, "Well, you Americans are not children. You can rescue your victims, bury your dead, clean up the rubble, find the perpetrators and deal with them, all without any assistance from me.

Why should you expect me to deny Martin, when he's attacked, the same support that I've given you Americans when you were attacked?

------------

I might add that the apparently-unremarked attempt I made on another thread to define what I thought might have been the position Martin was coming from was essentially correct. I hope Martin will forgive me for quoting this passage from an eloquent email I received from him today --

"I must say that you did a good job in analysing my psyche. Except it is not
mine alone but mostly of our whole country."

If I was right about that matter, I think it not impossible that I am right about thinking that the anti-Martin posts had indeed hurt.

I might also point out that Martin has so far chosen to not post anything further here, which seems to confirm my supposition.

I'd be sorry to think that through your unjustified attacks on him you had deprived yourselves of a valuable, objective, outside, and differing viewpoint from someone who was able, and willing, to give you one.

-------------

I've said my say. I intend to post nothing further about this or other attack-related matters.

martin schulz
09-14-2001, 04:48 AM
Mike-
There are 3 things I'd like to mention:

1. Germany is since 1959 (?) a full member of the NATO (the german Wörner was for a long time Chief Secretary of the NATO) and therefore obliged to stand by any member of the NATO in case of an attack directed to a single member - which is now (read the news) the case.
This membership was more or less forced on us, because the USA wanted to have nuclear weapons (Pershings) on our ground to reach the "land of the evil"-russia more easily. Same thing happened in East-Germany with the russians. So it was convenient to have a german member in the NATO back than (most of the people didn't like the idea of a german army so shortly after the war)
Nevertheless we are allies to everyone in the NATO including the USA. No doubt about that.

It's funny how perspectives change. Nobody wanted german soldiers to fight anywhere in the world again. We even had an amendment in our constitution preventing us from sending troops outside the country. Then there was the Gulf-War and suddenly everybody was asking why the germans didn't sent troops, but only (valuable high-tech) equipment. But does anybody honestly think that Israel would accept german soldiers on their ground for defense?

Be assured, or as Bush is saying everytime - "make no mistake about it" - Germany is an ally, a full member of the NATO, a member of the NATO Security councel, and will stand by the decisions of the NATO whatever those might be.

2. I am not quite sure everyone will understand the way you quoted me (even though that was privately sent-but ok). Reading it one might think not the way I think (the way I form thoughts) stands for Germany, but the opinion I expressed stands for Germany.
That is not true.
The way most germans clinically analyse situations, rather than being emotionally about it I did explain, I did not say anything about what germans think about that attack - I can not speak for others.

3. I am very much embarrassed about reading my name so often in this forum. I didn't want to stir up so many emotion, didn't even realize I would, because we might differ more than I expected in the way we react to pain (thing called culture shock - I experienced that when I lived in the States - everybody was too emotional in my opinion). Here are my appologies for making people mad.

But Martin Schulz and/or Germany is not the major theme here - it is the sorrow for the victims of the inhuman attack, the sympathy for the US citizens, the unification of the free world (there is more than USA guys), the war that is going on and what will be done to face that war!

Martin (overseas, but not from a different world)

Ronald Rosen
09-14-2001, 08:04 AM
Martin,as a Jew and an Amercan, I would consider it an honor and a privelege to stand side by side with modern day Germany and Germans in any fight against our common enemies!!!

Ed Harrow
09-14-2001, 09:43 AM
And the world grows brighter...

Mike Field
09-14-2001, 11:09 AM
Much.

Bruce G
08-30-2004, 10:43 PM
How the liberals have eaten away at this resolve :(

Alan D. Hyde
08-31-2004, 10:12 AM
A good thread.

Scott, we haven't heard from your father for a while.

Please pass along my best regards.

Alan

Bruce G
08-31-2004, 09:11 PM
not time to forget about this yet

Bruce G
09-01-2004, 07:37 AM
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