Agony

[Tar Devil]

I've never been in this much pain in my life. I've had nearly a dozen kidney stones, but none hurt like this one. Hope this sucker passes soon...

Later ("sooner" would be better),

Phil

[John B]

Good luck Phil. I get em too. Its no fun.

[Wild Dingo]

Hope it all goes well Phil nothin worse than pain and bein unwell

:(

[Jack Heinlen]

Phil,

Don't wait too long to go to the doc. Some are too big to pass on their own and if let go more than a few days can cause kidney damage. That pain is urine backing up into the kidney; the more consistent the pain the worse the blockage.

An MRI would give a good idea of size and location which will give clues to the likelihood of it passing. You'll also get some opiates.

Good luck,

Jack

[Ian McColgin]

One of the more horrific episodes on "Deadwood" involved a kidney stone.

[rbgarr]

Gleets! :eek: Isn't that Deadwood show an interesting one? Written by a woman, it marries Shakespearean structure with some of the foulest language on TV.

[ 05-18-2005, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

Lithotripeter.

(SP?)

Good luck, Phil. For those of you who haven't yet had one, it's a P A I N F U L experience.

Alan

[John of Phoenix]

My wife is as tough as they come but a stone really got her. My sympathies.

[Tar Devil]

Around 2 AM pain got so bad I woke my son and asked for a ride to the hospital.

Wish they would bottle and sell whatever they gave me... I'm still trippin' from that stuff. Still got the stone, though, but I'm not in as much pain as last night. Hopefully this will pass soon.

Regards to all!

Phil

[Donn]

They do bottle and sell it:

http://www1.dshs.wa.gov/ca/fosterparents/training/images/demerol.jpg

Don't get so plotzed that you forget to pour the water down. ;)

Edited to remove the word 'stoned' :D

[ 05-18-2005, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[km gresham]

Demerol, maybe? That's some good stuff - when I was having excruciating gall bladder attacks they gave me that stuff. The pain would evaporate, but then so would consciousness. ;) :D

[Katherine]

Narcotis are good. :D Is there anything they can do to crush them and make them pass faster?

[Alan D. Hyde]

Lithotripter.

http://www.gls-lithotripsy.com/Images/x-ray.jpg

Lithotripsy---

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/19246.jpg

Alan

[ 05-18-2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[huisjen]

I've only had the one episode, but that was enough. Get Well.

And notice how few pages in the phone book separate "Physicians, Urologists" from "Plumbers, Roto-rooter".

:eek:

As I said. Been there. Done that.

Dan

[John B]

my experience is that narcotics are a complete waste of time. anti inflammatories are the go. plus the water, plus the running up and down the stairs.....

[formerlyknownasprince]

Hey Phil

Have you tried getting a volunteer to blow on the attached tube to see if they can dislodge the stone .... if it doesn't work it might still be fun to try ...... :D

Ian

[huisjen]

Originally posted by John B:
my experience is that narcotics are a complete waste of time. anti inflammatories are the go. plus the water, plus the running up and down the stairs.....This is true of the anti inflammatories they have in the hospital, administered via I.V., but for the ride to the hospital, pain meds are very useful. They save having the dash kicked out and holes in the walls in the hospital admissions area.

Dan

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

OUCH :eek: good luck Phil :(

[Tar Devil]

igatenby :D :D

Well, if it's for medicinal purposes!! :D

Later,

Phil

[Tar Devil]

Originally posted by huisjen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John B:
my experience is that narcotics are a complete waste of time. anti inflammatories are the go. plus the water, plus the running up and down the stairs.....This is true of the anti inflammatories they have in the hospital, administered via I.V., but for the ride to the hospital, pain meds are very useful. They save having the dash kicked out and holes in the walls in the hospital admissions area.Dan</font>[/QUOTE]I'll second that, Dan. I coulda spelled "RELIEF" in 6 different languages last night after they started the IV.

Later,

Phil

[J. Dillon]

I sure hope you pass that thing. When it does, mount it up in a sling shot and aim for some tree rats. ;)

JD

[BDann]

Just out of curiosity, do you drink Dr. Pepper, and if so, how much? An unscientific poll among people I have know with kidney stones revealed that the vast majority of them drink 2 more Dr. Peppers daily.

[Tar Devil]

When I get a soft drink from a vending machine (which is rare... maybe on a week, if that much), it's usually a diet Dr. Pepper.

Soft drinks aren't high on my list of preferences. I do drink a lot of tea, which I understand can contribute to stones.

Later,

Phil

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Hang in there Phil.
I've had my share of misery but kidney stones I've managed to escape.
Healing thoughts and prayers.
Peace---> Kevin in Ohio

[cs]

Good luck Phil.

Chad

[htom]

Get well soon, Phil. I had a tiny one and have no desire to have any more.

[Alan D. Hyde]

I'm no physician.

However, as I understand it, there are two common types of stones: those composed of calcium, and those made up of uric acid.

Apparently, the calcium type occur much more frequently if you often drink soda (Coke, Dr. Pepper, what have you) when you're eating cheese (e.g., pizza)...

Alan

[Katherine]

How ya doing Phil?

[Memphis Mike]

Ack! I don't know what to say. I hope you're "passed" the worst of it. Bad play on words. Hope you're doing better.

-Sue

[Tar Devil]

Still got the stone... it's still giving me fits, but not as bad as Tuesday night. I have some really nice pills from the Dr.

I can tell it has moved quite a bit. Hopefully this shall "pass" sometime this weekend. Water, water, and more water!!

Later (I hope!!),

Phil

[Donn]

Any progress, Phil? I passed a small one yesterday, that I didn't even know was coming.

Full moons have a way of moving pissteroids.

[Tar Devil]

Still there, Donn, but only occassionally hurts. Drinking lots of water. Doc told me this one will be tough.

So, how many does that make for you?

Later,

Phil

[Jack Heinlen]

FWIW, I think my one episode was due to eating too many TUMS.

Why does the doc say this one's gonna be tough?

I hope it passes soon my friend. Weird, talking psysiognamy, but maybe it's in the bladder now, if the pain has abated.

How do you spell relief? Clink in the toilet bowl is how I spelled it. Yahoo, yipee, it's time for a party!

[Tar Devil]

Gone now. Feel much better (in all the right places!!) smile.gif

Later,

Phil

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Yeaaaaaaa :D Congrats Phil. I think it was the bourbon ya drank the other night that helped remove it. ;) I'm a firm believer in bourbon therapy :D

[John of Phoenix]

Whoa, over a month. Glad to hear you got rid of it.

[Joe Dupere]

Originally posted by Ironmule:
Rock on!!! ;)

Jeff SmithWell, rock "out" at least!! :D

Joe

[ 06-30-2005, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Joe Dupere ]

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Great news! :cool:
What?!?.... no photos? :D

[LisaS]

My most recent stone was pulverized Friday by laser lithotripsy and only time will tell how much damage it did to my kidney. The stent will stay for a couple of weeks this time...blech. Unlike my last bout, this stone (8 mm) which was lodged quite solidly in the ureter, was causing no pain....zero... There's another one in the other kidney that they are hoping will pass on its own... Time to re-double my water intake. Ugh.

LisaS

[Donn]

8mm! :eek: I'm in the final (I hope) stages of passing another one. Glug glug.

[Tar Devil]

I'm already feeling the light, knawing pain in my kidney. Guess another one is baking...

Later,

Phil

[LisaS]

Phil -

Time for you too to raise your water intake level... The after effects of this laser lithotripsy so far seem worse than the stone did...harumph.

LisaS

[Tar Devil]

Originally posted by LisaS:
The after effects of this laser lithotripsy so far seem worse than the stone did...harumph.
Sorry to hear that, Lisa. Guess that's why they didn't perform the lithotripsy on me my last trip to the hospital.

Hang in there, Gal.

Later,

Phil

[John B]

Sorry to hear that too Lisa.

I always imagined that treatment to be the great hope.. the backup. I'm really surprised to hear its not so successful.

[ 07-06-2005, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[George.]

Phil, drink lots of water - soft water. Then drink some more. Then, when you think you are going to blow up, drink some more.

Good luck.

[Meerkat]

Avoid citrus too!

Is it known what causes kidney stones to form? Sounds like something I'd like to avoid. I have enough to deal with already!

[John of Phoenix]

8mm!

[Jack Heinlen]

Meer,

As I said above, I had mine, I'm 99.9 percent sure, because I was using calcium based antacids. Apparently to excess, though I wasn't exceeding recommended use.

Other than that, there are links with grapefruit etc. But really, throw away the TUMs.

[Leon m]

Hey Donn,remember our bet? I still have my 9mm sitting nice and snug in the bottom of my kidney,and I aint gunna pass that baby either. :eek: ...good luck Lisa :( ;)

[Donn]

I don't remember the bet. It must have been more than 3 months ago.

We've been through the "What causes them" a few times. 80% are calcium oxalate stones, and while calcium is part of the equation, oxalate is a much bigger part, and, in most cases, hydration (lack of) is the biggest part of all.

The forum's been messing with me the past 2 days. I can get on in the morning and evening, but slowly, and not, at all, from late morning to early evening.

I think Scot's messing with me.

[Scott Rosen]

I'm on the third day of waiting to pass my first stone. It started Sunday, on the way back from my vacation. It was so bad by the time we got back, I couldn't drive myself to the emergency room.

The doc said this stone is 5mm, and that 95% of people with stones that size will pass them on their own, without medical intervention.

They gave me morphine in the ER, and I had a very bad reaction to it. Now I'm taking Vicodin. It works okay.

I just love pissing through the strainer.

[Donn]

Hang in there, Scott. It'll be a huge relief when you pass it.

I'm still carrying the one I was working on at the beginning of the month. It moves just enough every day to let me know it's still there.

This is primo stone weather.

[LisaS]

Well, finally got my stent out yesterday, which wasn't pleasant at all. All signs of the pulverized stone seem to have gone away...phew. Thanks to the size of the stone and the way it was wedged in,there was quite a bit of soft tissue damage, which is what caused the discomfort for me. I'll take that over surgery any day!!

As Donn pointed out, it's the oxalates that you have to watch out for more than the calcium content. Now to just redouble my water intake and stay away from a whole list of stuff the doctor reminded me of yesterday...nuts, chocolate, beets, coffee (GAH), etc.

[Nelson]

Has anyone here ever passed blood in their urine/semen from a stone? ( gross hematuria) Will a cat scan always show a stone or can they hide from the xray?

[Donn]

Yes, both blood and tissue.

No. Stones can hide from both xray and ultrasound. Look at the route they follow, in relation to the skeleton. Theoretically, a full MRI will spot it from another angle, but, for some reason, they sometimes don't.

[Nelson]

"Both blood and tissue"

That makes me feel a bit better. My cat scan showed nothing abnormal. I have a cystoscopy scheduled next week. I cant wait. ugghhh. I will be sedated. I have had pain which comes and goes in my groin-lasts a few days then disappears-it radiates out to my scrotum. Periodic blood in my semen-once some tissue- it comes and goes also.

At this point Im hoping for a stone or infection or broken blood vessel rather than the alternative. I had a large crop of beets this year and had been gobbling them down. How long does it take for a stone tobe created? Im hoping that I just loved my beets too much.

[Del Lansing]

Here's a new one; how about a saliva stone! Was getting ready to eat lunch when BAM!!! it felt like someone smacked my throat with a baseball bat. I grabbed my neck to see what's up, and felt a lump sticking out larger than a walnut, like instant mumps on one side. WOW, it kept on hurting and I managed to finish lunch. The next day the Dr. announced "Yup, that's a saliva stone, gotta get that out." So he starts to try to ream out the saliva duct with a probe that looked the size of ballpoint pen refill but felt like a thistle. No way, too large to pass. By the time I got an X-ray, the gland was dead so it had to go surgically. I still spit some small stones that feel like "sand from nowhere." When I asked about preventing stones the Doc said, "No way," "some people just get them." "Distilled water_may_slow them down a bit but will destroy your bones and electrolytes on the way."

[Donn]

Nelson, if you're as loaded with oxalate as it sounds, it could just take a few days to precipitate small stones. They then tend to gather together to form larger stones at bottlenecks in your system. Because they are comprised of many-faceted sharp edges, contraction or other movement of the surrounding tissue creates damage.

Del...that sounds worse than kidney stones. What are they made of?

[Del Lansing]

Del...that sounds worse than kidney stones. What are they made of? Worse in that it had to be cut out since the gland went necrotic. They are basically the same as kidney stones. The one I had was 4mm x 7mm so as stones go it was big, but that a saliva gland is hardly the size of your thumb...once this thing plugged the output duct it was going nowhere.

[Scott Rosen]

I saw the urologist today. He said the stone is 8mm.

I'm scheduled for a procedure on Friday to have it sonic-blasted into oblivion. If it doesn't pass first . . . . OUCH!

[Alan D. Hyde]

Lithotripsy, Scott.

Good luck with it.

Alan

[Scott Rosen]

Thanks, Alan.

[Jack Heinlen]

My sympathy Mr. Rosen. I've never, NEVER - and I've experienced some signifigant pain - felt anything so nauseatingly painful as a kidney stone.

It's only anectdotal, but I'm convinced the use of calcium antacids was a major contributor to my one bout with a stone. I was using them regularly when I had mine; I stopped using them; I've never had another, knock on wood.

Thank God for opiates, and good luck with yours, may it blast apart like the Empire's Deathstar! smile.gif

[ 07-20-2005, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[huisjen]

Katey here, not Dan (who is out in the dark hoping to shoot the porcupine that's been nibbling our lettuce seedlings).

Scott, Dan can sympathize with you on all counts. When I took him to the ER with his first kidney stone, they started a morphine drip. He kept yelling "IT'S NOT DOING ANYTHING!!!" Oh yes, it was. The nurse and I wathced in horror as the rash spread from the injection site up his arm and across his chest at the rate of about an inch a second. They yanked the needle out of him and gave him Demerol, as I recall, which was much more satisfactory on a number of counts.

Katey

[Donn]

Demerol is the longform of God. Pills are satisfactory, IM is better, and IV is heaven.

[Tar Devil]

Originally posted by Donn:
...and IV is heaven.Amen, Brother Donn!

Later,

Phil

[Jack Heinlen]

When I couldn't stand it anymore I went to the E room. What a scene! I'm going back and forth between pain that just barely allows me to talk to the attendants and screaming, loudly. And I'm, by nature, quite stoic. Some of this pain brooks no stoicism.

They put me on a gurney just off the E room; IV water. Oh great, more water backing up in the kidney.

I'm still doing my best to just moan loudly, but occasionally something louder escapes. It took twenty minutes, and quite a loud display, to finally get some demerol. It's not good, in the E room, to have patients screaming like a banshee.

Back to a much earlier post about this. If opiates weren't such a bugaboo I could have gone to the local apothecary and gotten some laudenum, to see me through till it passed. Being a rebel, I'd like that.

[Scott Rosen]

The last fragment finally passed yesterday afternoon. The Lithotripsy worked okay, but the fragments were still pretty large. The last one was 3mm.

The ER doc told me they don't give demerol anymore, which is too bad. I had it years ago, IM, and it was heaven--for three and a half hours, until the next dosage.

I was eating percocets for breakfast lunch and dinner. It's nasty stuff, but it works on the pain, most of the time.

[Matt J.]

I don't know if you old guys earned more sympathy or frustration... I feel bad for you, for sure; my Dad's the toughest mofo I've ever met, but he was reduced to almost tears with a "big one" and asked for a trip to the ER... now, Dad's broken more than a few bones, and had more than a couple nasty injuries. He'd always look at it and drive himself if it needed attention. Not with the stone...

OTOH, you're really making me dread getting old tongue.gif . Seeing Dad like that I've cut down on sodas and salt, but I can't remember what else the docs told him cause them.

[LisaS]

Matt -

I was 28 when I had my first round with lithotripsy. It ain't just old pharts....

Lisa

[Donn]

Congrats, Scott. Now keep the water intake up.

Matt..I got my first stone in my early 20's. It's not an old man's thing exclusively.

[Matt J.]

Ruh-roh.

So Donn, you seem to have the most experience... what foods do you avoid to reduce chances? Or does that do anything?

[Donn]

High oxalate foods I have no problem avoiding:

Spinach (one of the highest)
Chocolate (ok, a small problem)
Celery
Bran flakes
Beets

High oxalate foods I have trouble avoiding:

Peanut Butter
Green Beans (~1/20th the content of spinach)
Potato
Most berries
Most bread
Green peppers
Parsley

edited to add...it has made a difference. I'm down from ~10 a year to ~5. High water intake also helps, particularly this time of year.

[ 07-27-2005, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[Meerkat]

Is it genetic or something? I've never had more than the pleasurable little zing while urinating that I've been told is a tiny stone passing (crossing fingers, toes, legs, arms, eyes and anything else that will cross to ward this off! ;) ).

Don't recall my dad ever having any problem either...

[LisaS]

Supposedly, there is a strong genetic link with them. My new urologist was quite suprised to learn that nobody else in my family tree has ever suffered from this ... and he's been my dad's urologist for many years.

Lisa

[Tar Devil]

I'm the only one in my family cursed with these things! :mad: :mad:

Later,

Phil

[Donn]

Same here, except for my ex, and she doesn't count.

[landlocked sailor]

Okay Guys, as an ER doc, I treat kidney stones evry day; in fact, I'm treating one right now. This is REAL BAD pain. The first thing everybody gets, barring allergy, is 30mg of Toradol IV, followed by 5mg morphine IV. The morphine is titrated in 5mg doses every 5 minutes until the pain is controlled. This works 90+% of the time. If the patient is allergic to morphine, I use IV demerol of IV dilaudid. The key here is IV dosing in ADEQUATE doses. This last is highly variable among people; if it takes 5 mg, fine. If it takes 50 mg, that's fine too.
Scott, here's a bit of free medical advice: take vicodin of percocet 1-2 every four hours as needed, but ADD 600mg of ibuprofen every 6 hours with food. Those two meds work in synergy for this prostaglandin mediated pain. Rick

[huisjen]

Okay, I got a question or two.

First, is Toradol the smooth muscle relaxant that actually loosens up the uratur enough to let fluid past, if not let the stone move? If so, good stuff, that.

Second, what's the deal with ibuprofin? When I had the stone, the urologist said take gobs, somthing like 1000 mg every 6 hours. My current doc says that's too much and could do kidney damage. What are the considerations here?

Dan

[landlocked sailor]

Toradol is in the same class of drugs as Ibuprofen; they are both NSAIDs: non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agents. Toradol is the only parenteral (meaning IV or IM) available in this country. It's not a muscle-relaxant of any kind.
The pain of a ureteral stone is thought to be mediated by protaglandins and the NSAIDs specifically target or block this pain pathway. One of the SIDE-EFFECTS of all NSAIDs is diminished blood flow to the kidneys, so if your arteries already are partially blocked, any reduction in flow can damage your kidneys. Likewise, if you already have poor kidney function, NSAIDs ouhgt not be used. Truth is, NONE of the NSAIDs, including the newest and notorious Vioxx and Celebrex are superior to any other; ibuprofen has never been improved upon as far as effectiveness for pain control. In fact, oral Ibuprofen is probably as effective as IV toradol, though the toradol probably works faster IV. Futhermore, nobody would appreciate the doc who, when you come into the ER in renal stone agony, hands you a couple of Motrins. In Europe they have IV indocin which is likewise very effective. Not here though. Rick