Cypress as framing wood ???

[michaeljames]

I have some cypress that I would like to use as station frames. Anyone have any negatives about this, i.e. holding nails/screws, moisture, etc?
tks

[ 01-04-2005, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: michaeljames ]

[mic]

Hi Michael, are you talking about cypress pine? If so, then i definitly do not recommended it be used on any structual members of a boat. Certainly cypress has some great characteristics and awsome grain patterns and would look great for interior trimms, lining boards etc. But for planking decking and framing its's not recomended, its biggest drawback is that it's very prone to fine surface checking and it's a very brittle timber which splits quickly when nailed. For house framing this is not a problem, and cypress is a popular framing timber for this application and also for posts punched directly into the ground, but for a boat these are undesirable traits. Anyway it's basicaly classed as a small to medium sized soft wood, and even this is an argument because it's harder and heavier than some hard woods, remembering that Cypress pine is one of the hardest pines in the world. It's ADD (air dryed density) ranges from 710kg/m3 down to 670kg/m3 cause there's a few different species of Cypress which we don't need to talk about now because they all have similar traits anyway, and besides, i'm already sick of typing. Anyway, Cypress drys quickly a reduction of the initial drying time is necessary for dressed products due to surface checking, shrinkage is about 2.5% radial and 3% tangential, it accepts nail plate connectors with out splitting, heartwood is durable for external use and incredably resistant to termites the sapwood is not as durable for outside conditions but incredibly tough to inpregnate wih preservatives and the sawdust is very irritating for the nose and throat. Mechanical properties/ratings are S5 and SD6 on average and SD7 for some species. Hope i've been of help, goodluck finding your timbers. smile.gif

[imported_Dutch]

I would not use cypress for framing, if it likely to get wet. Cypress has the tendency to absorb large amounts of water and your framing ( boat) will take on the added weight and as an added bonus, wet lumber is much less stiff ( strong) than dry lumber. cypress grown today is also a poor cousin to the old growth stuff for decay resistance

[Bob Smalser]

Here's probably what you are looking at in North Carolina...Baldcypress...Taxodium distichum:

http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/SoftwoodNA/htmlDocs/taxodiumdisticum.html

It's almost as heavy as Doug Fir but not near as strong...probably not the best choice for framing.

Australian Cypress Pine is Callitris columellaris or Callitris glauca.

[Roger Stouff]

Whoa, hold on now, me lads! Do my ears deceive me? Cypress lumber not good for framing boats???

With all due kindness and respect, hogwash! smile.gif Cypress is among the premiere boatbuilding materials in the United States. John Gardner recommended it as an option on the skiff I'm building.

We here in Louisiana have been using cypress for hundreds of years, framing everything from pirogues to 60-ft shrimp trawlers. Cypress not good for framing boats? Phooey!

Now, the DISCLAIMERS: If the post is referring to new cypress, cut from small trees as Dutch said, it's no better than yellow framing pine. It will warp and twist as it dries But if it's cut from a medium or large tree with tight grain, select grain cypress with 8 or more rings per inch has developed enough cypressene resin to protect it from rot and deter absorption.

Antique cypress, on the other hand, is superior stuff that is perfectly suited to building boats and has been for centuries. The blonde wood is good, the red heart cypress is absolutely exquisite.

Bottom line is, you CAN still get good cypress lumber, but you have to handpick it carefully. Check to see what you have. If it looks like Lowe's pine, forget it. If it looks like tight vertical grain fir, it's good cypress.

Best regards,
R

[Bob Smalser]

Also depends on what your other choices are.

If you have good cypress heartwood stock as Roger describes, then run the strength numbers against the framing stock in your boat design.....work to maximum load and shear strength are the most important ones....and plus up your scantling sizes accordingly. White Oak has twice the shear strength of cypress and will handle a third larger load. Depending on the boat, meeting those strength figures may result in a clunkier look than you want.

Other choices in North Carolina include White Oak, Black Locust and Sassafras.

[ 01-04-2005, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[High C]

Roger said it best, old growth heart cypress, if you can find it, is one of the very best boat building materials ever. Treated pine will rot before this stuff. The pale colored sap wood stuff is NOT for wet applications!

I used to live in your area, Western , NC, and bought lots of cypress locally to build furniture. It came from the coastal South Carolina area, I believe. That stuff was NOT suitable for boat building and likely is the same as is available to you there now. If it's dark in color with very close grain, it's the old stuff, and worth its weight in gold, but if it's pale and wide grained, don't get it wet. Interior use only.

[dmede]

I was at a local woodcraft store in the SF Bay Area the other day and they had Cypress on sale for something like $4.40/lf. The wood seemed heavy, very solid (heavier than DF). Like a hardwood not a soft wood. It was a little bit sticky, I guess very resinous? Is this the same wood you are talking about? Is it a good boat wood?

[dmede]

Originally posted by Venchka:
A quick and dirty WoodFinder search of Califonia turned up these two woods:

Port Orford Cedar (Lawson's Cypress, Oregon Cedar)

Monterey Cypress

Dunno. Ask the folks selling it what it is.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D Thanks Wayne :rolleyes: but that requires talking to a humanbeing and I've sworn off intrapersonal contact for new years tongue.gif

[Osborne Russel]

Cyprus would make an excellent forward staging base for operations in Syria.

[michaeljames]

Oh! My! This question really got some response and now I seem to know less than when I originally asked the question! Praise the internet to bring the world together! Anyhoo!

There is some Cypress here in one of the local lumber yards(yellow) that carries specialty wood. The species I do not know! What I was referring to is Florida Cypress. I lived in Gainesville, Florida for quite a few winters and kayaked the rivers and swamps daily and marveled at the cyprus and it's tenacity to endure salt and freshwater. The cypress knees I thought, someday would be great for the frames and add 2 by stock to extend the length. There is a sawmill in Gainesville that cuts only cypress and I think you can get it in just about any dimension, rough and they will ship it. I would, if it is the right stuff, take a trip down and pick it up. Whether this is Cyprus pine or whatever I am not sure and will have to call them. I assumed it came from the local swamps as some is big stock.

I built a couple garages and outbuildings, in Florida, with cypress telephone polls, used ones that a sawyer cut into 8” and 10” boards x 8 feet that I purchased for $2.00 a piece (never happen again in this century!) . They went on the buildings vertically (pole building style) and I used cypress battens. That was about 12 years ago and the owner says they still look better than his house. no paint, no varnish, no coatings what so ever (the creosote edges from the telephone poles had been cut away.) and the boards just keep getting better with age. SO, I naturally thought some 2 by stock would make some good, never say die, frame materials (dried and coated).!

I have 3 possible applications, all epoxy/glass on ply, that they would be used for, which I need to get on the stick and make the big decision, because I want the hull done and in the water by June.

1) A sailing dory - RD Cullers 25 footer
2) A sailing scow (Bolgers 28)
3) A catamaran hulled house boat.
(I eventually want a cruising/sailing cat but cost wise may have to wait)
4) and absolutely a new a dink/tender, possibly Cullers Sampan (just cause I’ve always wanted a sampan), or a Chincoteague scow.

The common thread is extreme shoal draft, easily beach-able and minimal power requirements. The bigger decision and I have been running specs and lofting on the porch, is which is the winner in build time, economics

The dory and the scow do not have to be light construction, fact I think the heavier the better. The cat hulls would be another story, but if I had the cypress available I was thinking they would make good frames for the cat hulls, since they would be enclosed and sealed for the most part(These would be the basic cat hull from GLEN-L, again 28-32 feet and a small floating house for gunkin, (preferably close to cajun dancing and cajun food ) somewhere between Florida and Texas for the winters.

By the way, I was fortunate enough to find a used copy of “Skiffs and Schooners” by RD Culler at a local used book store, snatched it up like it was a virgin! If it would not violate any copy rights, I would be glad to share the design info you folks!

[ 01-04-2005, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: michaeljames ]

[Venchka]

Can we all agree on one thing? It's

Cypress

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[michaeljames]

Okay Wayne "Cypress". I guess I flunked the spelling B! But I thought you would be impressed that I got "cajun" correct! (so much for the spell-checker)

Mike, the Chincoteague scow, I think there are a set of lines in American small craft; most of my boat books are in storage in Maine, so I cant be sure of the last time I ran across the plan. That one I believe was a sailing scow. I was stationed on Chincoteague for a few years and we used the scows for fishing. Far as I know, there is still a waiting list to have one built. They are good sea boats!

MJ

C Y P R E S S

--think I like Cyprus better, you'll never hear a tar heel say CY press!

[ 01-04-2005, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: michaeljames ]

[michaeljames]

Jester, there is a name I haven't heard for quite a few years, Wow! You just made me old! I lived in Pocomoke City while stationed there and not having been born on the island, I would never be a Teaguer. It took me two years just to understand the language! I'm talkin about the motorized version the guys build not the sailing version. Too bad about the slow down, they did have a huge following. I had to wait so long I went out and blew the money on a Grady White instead!

[michaeljames]

Thanks for the replay Mike. We had old-timers that would set on the station steps at night and try to fiugre out how to get rid of that damned causeway but still keep the yankee tourists dollars coming in!

[Bob Smalser]

On a side note, how many here have any experience using any Cypress for boats, and is so, what types of boats have you built with it, and how long have they been in the water? Funny all of a sudden Cypress is bad wood to some here. Sorry, that is pretty much a blanket show, of a quick reply, without knowing a lot of the information, that is lacking in his original post.
Cypress gets around....all our family's green house framing and benches in NE Penna were built from it during the 1930's and we used newer stock to repair them when I was a kid in the '50's-'60's. Both newer and older stock were soft and spongy....a bit harder than WR Cedar but untreated wood soaked up water just as fast or faster. That could be ameliorated by epoxy coatings, of course.

As a forestry and biology student in S.C. during the 60's on a work-study program, most of the coastal work and shrimp boats we used were cypress planking with longleaf pine framing. Trees near salt water were called Red Cypress and upland swamp trees were called Yellow Cypress...but all were Baldcypress.

There is only one US species of US cypress to my knowledge...is akin in strength data to Alaska Yellow and Port Orford cedars very occasionally used out here for framing....it is a bit weaker and softer than Doug Fir.

That means scantling sizes worked out for oak, mahogany or fir must be plussed up if you expect a hull as strong as the designer intended....we're talking between 50 and 100% larger scantlings than White Oak, and that may not make the grade aesthetically in smaller vessels.

The other advantage of harder and stronger framing stock is the ability to hold fasteners. The US Navy when talking about motor whaleboats the size of the yachts under consideration, didn't recommend substituting Doug Fir or Longleaf Pine for White Oak in most applications because of that...let alone significantly weaker Baldcypress, which they considered strictly a planking wood.

[ 01-04-2005, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[michaeljames]

Thanks Bob and all for digging up the information and relaying. Now back to the decision on boat type!

An Island Is A Small Body Of Land Surrounded By The Need For A Boat!

[Bob Smalser]

My Uncle Merle, who also had a woodlot and mill on that farm, loved cypress in his 800 linear feet of greenhouse benches specifically because it held water so well...

...those bench bottoms beneath the humus remained soaking wet for long enough to save a number of waterings.

I remember the discussion well, as it was part of some stern counsel about every drop of water I let splash on the dirt floors being a waste of electricity for the pump.

[ 01-04-2005, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[mic]

HO! HO! :D Hey michael are you confused now or what? Look the realism is that i'm sure that you could build a boat out of practically any timber, but certain timbers have more desirable characterisics than others for different purposes. What i'm saying is, that i personly believe that you could a lot better than cypress for your choice in framing timbers, there's an abundance of better choices, and compared to those, Cypress is a relitivly poor choice. Also to save any confusion, my stats in my earlier post are not refering to our Ausralian Cypress here, they're based on US species; although many traits are similar. smile.gif

[michaeljames]

My! My! Pandora’s Box! Confused! NO! Enlightened! You have outdone yourselves! A lively debate, this cypress (cyprus) issue! 21 replies! 19 thought provoking exchanges of substance and 2 jeopardy nazi’s!

I used to build fiberglass kayaks, the only big issue was not having the gel-coat gator on you! Hum! Maybe a very large glass kayak, with wings! Anyway, I’ll check out what wood I have available while digesting the information, which you have taken your time, to give me.

Thank you, everyone, for your responses!

[RonW]

Why Not...
Post # 28..

Michaeljames.- Try this- go to
www.glen-l.com (http://www.glen-l.com)
Scroll down the left side to - wood and plywood information, click onto it and then click onto -boatbuilding lumber chapter 5.
Cypress is listed and commented on by mr.glen.
At the end of the chapter is a very good chart showing the strength, rot resistance , weight and fastener holding quality of various woods used in boat construction. In fact the chapter would be worth printing out and keeping if you do not have the book. Good luck hope this helps in wood decisions.

[ 01-05-2005, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: RonW ]

[RonW]

Ain't it amazing at how many names one tree can have. I counted 60 names listed on the link above, all for the cypress tree.

[High C]

Michael, I used to but lots of cypress at a lumber yard near you in Hendersonville. They were very helpful and were happy to let me pick through their piles to get what I want. Hendersonville Hardwoods of NC, Inc. was the name.

I have used cypress to replace bad planks in my old Matthews motor yacht with great success, but I was careful to cut out and use only the heartwood with tight, relatively straight grain. Some of it has beautiful, wild grain patterns that make nice furniture, but I would not plank a boat with that. I would also hesitate to frame with it, unless, as others have pointed out, you went to a little larger frame dimensions.

In New Orleans, many of the older houses are built of heart cypress. 100 year old shrimp and oyster luggers survive to this day. It's incredible stuff, very, very rot resistant. On the other hand, I have seen porch swings made out of new growth, pale colored sap wood cypress that would rot in 2 or 3 years out in the rain. :eek:

It's mighty nice to work, too, and smells nice when you cut into it.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Courtesy of www.glen-l.com (http://www.glen-l.com) :

"CYPRESS, BALD
(red cypress, yellow cypress, white cypress)
32 lbs. per cubic foot, 2.76 lbs. per board foot
Grown along the Southeastern coastal states of the United States, often in swamps. Heartwood near salt water varies from reddish to almost black, while the heartwood from farther inland is only slightly reddish or yellowish brown. Moderately strong, it is highly decay resistant, but soaks up a lot of moisture. Its primary use is in conventional planking, and therefore has little use in plywood boat building."

***

Alan

[Roger Stouff]

Alan and Ron, please take this as light-hearted banter!

It does amuse me, though, that Glen-L, a California-based company, judges the uses of good southeastern cypress. :D

There's a shrimp boat in use in Morgan City, La., 40 feet or so, nearing 70 years old, all cypress, no epoxy, regular paintjob, that's it. She hauls in tons of shrimp every season and looks like a million bucks. Her captain/owner says he's replaced half a dozen bottom planks since he purchased her in 1968, and not a bit of problems with any of the frames, chines or the like.

Not bad for a wood Glen-L over in California says don't frame with, eh? smile.gif

But I agree, if you can't get "the good stuff" like High C says, don't mess with the new, yellow stuff.

Best,
R

[imported_Dutch]

youre wrong oyster. as i said in a much earlier post and dean smalser said again several times, cypress is a sponge like wood. take a look at some of the old stripped up shrimpers in your neck of the woods. they weigh several tons more than a comparable boat planked and framed with a different species. why? its a floating sponge full of sea water. guess how much it costs to push all that water around with big fat gas/diesel engines?

youd be smarter to use a more expensive wood and even one heavier from the get go and put a smaller power plant in her

[Roger Stouff]

Good morning, Dutch! Let's go fishing shellcrackers in my spongy 42-year-old bateau! ;)

I give up, though. High C, Mike and I see these boats, first hand, work with the wood, build boats with the wood.

I'm going to put information on the web that will amount to character assassination of Douglas fir, white oak and all those cedars! :cool:

[imported_Dutch]

roger- is your boat kept in the water or out?

if itsd kept in the water for prolonged periods i bet you dont remember how light and easy it was to pull up on a mud flat when it was new.

Im not saying cypress wont work, or that old growth timber isnt highly rot resistant - im saying i wouldnt use it for framing or even planking for that matter if there were a number of other alternatives -

in one circumstance on an old beeter that i owned i even used lumber yard yellow pine for a floor, but that was only because the rest of the boats life was to be measured in a couple of years at best.

in some circumstances it works. if i was building little creek boats down you and oysters way that could be flipped over and /or stuck under the carport when not used and had a good supply of decent cypress cheap, i'd most likely use it letting my customers know aforehand the pitfalls of cypress and letting them upgrade to another specie for the right price

ps - should i bring my cane pole and worms?

[ 01-06-2005, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Dutch ]

[Roger Stouff]

It's trailered, of course. smile.gif But the shrimper in Morgan City isn't!

Fly rods, man, fly rods! :D

[qm]

OK- this is what I have been waiting for!! I have a very old 16ft sailboat with skeg,double cockpitwith coveringboards, mast way up in the bow, natural knee for the stem, diagonal decking,etc,etc. But the planking looks like oak, however all,that's all, the paint has fallen off over the last forty years since it was last painted. I found it upsidedown in a field. Could the planking be cyprus because it looks like oak and the paint fell off like it does off the Conch(sp)shell houses on Keywest which are sided with cyprus-I think I got that right. How can I tell? Bob

[Venchka]

We need more information to know it it's cyprus. What color was the paint? :D

Would that make me one of the two Jeopardy Nazis?

OK, real questions here. I have access to decent cypress. I know the numbers for cypress don't exactly match douglas fir, but they aren't that far off. I know that the strength of a boat frame or floor is primarily dependant on it's molded depth and secondly on it's sided width. Or did I get that backwards? I know that I need to increase the cross sectional area of the floor or frame if I'm using wood with lower strength numbers. The strength of a beam increases more rapidly if the depth increases. The figures for wood strength are based on a 2"x2" section. Am I rambling? Here's the big finish:

For frames, floors, chine logs, etc. which strength numbers are most important? How do I calculate the increse in depth for the weaker wood to equal the specified depth for the stronger wood? I'm not suggesting substituting WRC for white oak. What I am suggesting is substituting cypress (gasp) or loblolly pine (swoon) for douglas fir. Ya'll always say "increase the scantlings if you want to use a weaker wood". OK, show me the numbers and I can figure it out myself.

If the above makes no sense at all, I apologize. It's late.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 01-06-2005, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]