building a vertue

[redurchin]

was wondering if plans for the vertue can still be found. I wrote Giles laurent but have'nt got a response

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Yes, Giles are still selling them, and people are still building them.

Laurent Giles and Partners website (http://www.laurentgiles.co.uk/)

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

You might want to try the ".com" version of that web address.

[Bob Cleek]

Vertue plans are available from Laurent Giles and Partners, as Andrew said. They're available for traditional plank construction, cold molded (which they call "strip plank" over there), and even steel. Email Barry Van Geffen at Giles. He's their managing partner. Nice guy. Tell him I sent you, if you want.

Great boat, but not an easy boat to build. If done well, certainly worth the time. Great resalel value!

[Meerkat]

Steeeep price for Vertue plans: over $1,100 IIRC.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Steeeep price for Vertue plans: over $1,100 IIRC.But that's only going to be about 1 or 2%
of the cost of the boat.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt:
You might want to try the ".com" version of that web address.W :eek: W

[imported_GregW]

After reading the .com version, I now understand why they are charging so much for plans that are over 50 yrs old.
Not a good story, I wonder what the other side of the story is. :eek:

[ 07-05-2005, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: GregW ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

Andrew and others in the UK, do you know anything further on the matters discussed on the www.laurentgiles.com (http://www.laurentgiles.com) website???

The allegations are grave, although the information respecting the owner's "homebuilding" activities is sketchy at best, and may exculpate the Laurent Giles people to some extent.

This is worth some examination of this forum. I'd like to get at the truth of the matter, whatever and wherever it may be.

Alan

[ 07-05-2005, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Bob Cleek]

Well, it seems the Tates haven't given up yet. Sad situation. They have been on a crusade to besimirch Laurent Giles and Partners for some time now. I don't have any specific inside information from either side, but over the last couple of years, this is what seems to have occurred.

First, these folks lost their boat when "hitting a whale." Give me a break. That's just my opinion, but this "hitting a whale" routine has been used on more than one occasion to dispose of a boat for insurance money. Maybe they did, but a boat that size? It had to be one hell of a whale, and one too stupid to get out of the way, at that. Pardon me if I am skeptical.

They commissioned Giles to design them a boat. Now, the way this is done is standard in the industry. The money you pay Laurent Giles for the "plans" includes their supervising the building the boat to their specifications and/or one of the insurance standards, such as Lloyds 100A1+. I know, because I've discussed buying plans and building a boat with them myself. They don't want Giles vessels built out of ferrocement or worse by some backyard builder. They have a reputation to protect.

The Tates got into a beef with the construction yard over how they were building the boat. As they state in their website, they didn't like the fact that the yard was storing steel outside where it would rust prior to being fabricated for use on the vessel. Tate says he wanted to "prevent rust and have a longer lasting boat." This is pure crap. As anyone who has any familiarity with building steel hulls knows, nobody sweats rust at all until the vessel is completed. Only then is it sandblasted and shot with rust inhibiting coatings immediately after it is blasted. Steel begins rusting immediately in contact with air. That is why they don't bother trying to stop it until it is time to coat the vessel. The amount of rust that would accumulate during the construction process would have only a theoretical and actually immeasurable effect on the "life of the vessel." Obviously, these people were crazy, didn't know what they were doing, and/or simply wished to pick a fight and perhaps get a cheaper boat on account of their pretexural complaints. Perhaps the fact that they waited until the hull and decks were complete before taking the boat (probably without paying the yard, either) is telling.

They took the boat out of the builder's yard before it was finished. I expect this was NOT in keeping with their contract with Giles, who I would presume would only accept responsibility for the finished product if they were able to supervise construction. I am sure Giles had had supervisory authority over the yard and had been in a position to tell the yard how the boat was to be built. Once Tate got it into his back yard or wherever and started doing it himself, I expect Giles washed their hands of him.

When the boat was launched, she floated below her lines. This is a very common occurrence, particularly for home built boats. The calculations are iffy at best. Frequently, ballast adjustment is necessary to get waterlines and trim correct. This also is the NA's job, IF they are supervising the construction. If they are not, it falls on the shoulders of the builder.

Apparently, Tate sued Giles because he felt his boat was "too heavy" and that should have been recognized in the design stage. From the arbitrator's report, it appears the arbitrator found Giles' designer was at fault in his calculations and awarded Tate what appears to be the value of the entire boat. I can't say exactly what the circumstances of that arbitration were. It does appear from the trade association's findings that someone at Giles had made an error, but one which they did not find to be so eggregious as to take serious action upon.

Giles thereafter filed for protection of the bankruptcy court. That is standard operating procedure for any business hit with a huge judgment award which it wishes to appeal, or even to pay over time without facing closing its doors. It may also be necessary to delay enforcement of the judgment until Giles can sort out the yard's co-liability for the problem. Who knows? I doubt that Tate was awarded the money AND allowed to keep the boat. The bankruptcy filing would likely allow Giles to offset the actual value of the boat against the judgment amount. It is possible that the boat's value may even exceed the judgment. We cannot know exactly what the purpose of the present legal wranglings are. Giles has not commented publicly that I know of, apparently taking the "high road" in the matter.

As can be seen by the correspondence from the naval architects' society back to Tate, he wanted them to take more punitive action against Giles. To my way of thinking, this guy has some kind of vendetta, and a financial motive, for badmouthing the firm.

Now, on the other hand, Laurent Giles and Partners, are one of the most highly respected naval architectural firms in the world. They not only design yachts, but also, and perhaps more actively at present, they design all manner of commercial craft, expecially for the North Sea oil rigs. I have dealt with them over the years and own one of their Vertues. They have always been very accommodating and all around nice people. In the business world, you quickly learn that there are people out there who will lie and cheat if they get the chance. The think it is fair to attempt to weasel their way out of paying what they have agreed to pay. You don't order a meal in a restaurant, finish it and then refuse to pay because you didn't like it. In this case, Tate ordered a meal, then marched into the kitchen, threw out the chef, and finished cooking it himself. They he refused to pay because he got indigestion.

Vertue plans, or any other stock plan from Giles, are priced according to the industry standard. The price includes the "license to build" one vessel to the plans. The plans themselves cost only about $250 for a large vessel and are extremely detailed and well done. The remainder of the price is the "license." The license to build is the firm's commission on designing it and is what makes the boat a "Giles Vertue" and not just another 25 foot sailboat. It authorizes the owner to call it a Vertue. With it comes Giles' construction supervision, to the degree you contract them to provide this on an hourly basis. (They will supervise construction to meet Lloyds 100A1+, etc., or simply make sure the vessel is built to their specifications without shortcuts, iron substituted for bronze fastenings when you aren't looking, and the like.) It also adds tremendously to the value of the boat.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. There are thousands of Giles boats out there and these are the only folks I've ever heard of that aren't completely satisfied with theirs. If you are interested in building one of their boats, contact them yourself and make your own evaluation.

[ 07-05-2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Bob I had the same New Yorker skepticism when I read the slander site. Glad to see my suspicions are still razor sharp. ;)

[Meerkat]

FWIW, last I knew, one could still order a fiberglass Vertue hull and deck from ?Bossums? Boatyard in the UK. They were the last licensed manufacturers, but now only provide hulls and decks to order.

[Scott Rosen]

Regardless of whether the website is accurate, the Vertue is a time-tested design which has been built probably hundreds of times. No need to even consider yourself with "designer's negligence" for Vertue plans.

By the time you're done building, the thousand bucks you spent on plans will seem like an insignificant drop in the bucket. If you're an ameteur builder, then your mistakes alone will probably cost you five to ten times the cost of the plans (if you're lucky). If you want to build a boat like the Vertue, you gotta be prepared to open your wallet.

[ 07-05-2005, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

[redurchin]

You might want to try the ".com" version of that web address.

thank you for all the responses. I will try again to contact giles for the plans . I am helping restore a vertue right now . sail no. 74 so I sort of know how much work building a planked version will be .. but if I knew exactly how much work, I might not start.

If P.I. Stazzer-Newt was implying that I should be leary of the design for a vertue I think 70 years of years of sailing history speaks for it self

[Aramas]

Regarding the litigation site, no one sinks a boat at sea and gets into a life raft with their entire family on board. How could anyone even suggest such a thing?

Secondly, designing a vessel ten inches down on the dwl when empty (which on a vessel that size is an error of something in the order of 30% of the displacement!) is gross negligence on the part of not only the NA that did the calculations, but also the entire company, no matter how you look at it. The arbitrator found the errors in the design calculations, so any prattling over excessive weight gain due to homebuilding is irrelevant.

Further, for a large engineering firm to carry no insurance is insane.

The company in question, despite trading under a famous name that has no bearing on their own work, is obviously managed by idiots. Personally I hope they're broken up and LG's portfolio goes to someone worthy of the name.

While their incompetence has no bearing on the quality of the Vertue design, I certainly wouldn't be putting my money in the pockets of those cowboys.

[Stiletto]

I recall the Hiscocks in one of their books pointing out that their newly built boat was down on her lines when first launched.

[Bob Cleek]

Aramas, I'm afraid you are taking Tate's word for it. If these guys are such "cowboys," why are they the "go to" outfit for small craft for folks like the Royal Navy, Royal Dutch Shell, the Lifeboat Service, the British Sail Training Association and really, really, really, rich yachtsmen all over the world?

[Bob Cleek]

This from "BoatDesign.net." It seems Mr. Tate's story keeps changing... and the plot thickens.

peter tate 11-13-2002 03:53 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yacht Design

S/Y Frances Ann.
Club de Mar
PETER J TATE
Muelle Pelaires, s/n 07080,
Palma de Mallorca.
Apartado 991.
Spain.
Telephone. 0034 666862372. E-mail yachtbuild.com

Dear Sir,

I think that bearing in mind the high profile of Laurent Giles Ltd. And the disastrous repercussions of awarding a design contract to a company run by Barry Van Geffen and Steven Wallis your readers should be made aware of the potential of being drawn in by unscrupulous members of both R.I.N.A. and the Y.B.D.S.A.

After losing my 40´classic yacht 1000 miles from Brazil (see mail on Sunday 17th February 1995) I returned to the U.K. and after some considerable deliberation decided to build a new yacht, in steel this time. I chose a designer from a short list called Laurent Giles Ltd.
Reasons: Good name, fully qualified personable directors, both members of the Y.B.D.S.A. and R.I.N.A., which I understood was an endorsement of their respectability and professional ability. We also believed that to be members you had to have professional indemnity insurance.

I was presented with a specification, which after a few changes I agreed to, L.G. then insisted on vetting the builder of the steel hull, as they would not consent to “any old Builder”.

Sail and Steam of Brightlingsea Essex was finally approved and a contract signed. The contract was to include entry of the yacht into the Southampton Boat Show along with a 75ft. navy class locomotive and a Pullman carriage, Laurent Giles were to share the stand. The indication was that I might get some sponsorship from interested parties.

The builders failed to keep to the contract the boat show stand never happened and there was an arbitration, which ended up with me removing the part complete hull to my own property. The hull had £8,000.00 worth of remedial work to be done before I was able to carry on and finish the hull then fit her out myself.

When she was almost complete I did a test launch to check the trim, she was sitting trim but to my horror was 7” down on her lines with still several tons of essential gear to go.

Page 2

The architects refused to accept any responsibility and told me to deal with their solicitors. I requested that they send a surveyor or a representative to look at what I had done, but they declined.

As we had a contract with Laurent Giles we had to follow what had been stated in it, which was that in the event of a disagreement we would go to arbitration, the arbitrator to be appointed by the Y.B.D.S.A. and R.I.N.A. This was duly done, Laurent Giles then agreed to go to court instead, they then changed their minds and another arbitrator was appointed, 5 years later the hearing was held in his offices in Glasgow.

The hearing was booked for 5 days but the arbitrator called a halt after 4 days saying that he felt that he had heard enough.

During the hearing it came to light that Barry Van Geffen and Steven Wallis had been taking an undisclosed amount of money from Sail and Steam at the same time as they were in our employ and prior to us signing the contract with Sail and Steam. It was also found that Laurent Giles were not insured when they designed my yacht, even though they were required to be insured by the Y.B.D.S.A., and further more they stated that they would not pay any award that may be made against them. To ensure this they have taken all the assets of Laurent Giles Ltd., including the name and drawings, the company name is now “Briefgoals” and has gone into voluntary liquidation! owing me approximately £200,000.00.

The arbitrator made his award almost entirely in our favour but of course we will not see any of it, if Barry Van Geffen and Steven Wallis can help it.

Since this has been going on I have heard of other people that have had the same trouble with this company, represented by Barry Van Geffen and Steven Wallis.

Peter J Tate.

www.laurentgiles.com (http://www.laurentgiles.com)

Polarity 11-13-2002 11:57 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really sorry to hear of your problems and that they should be associated with the name of such a renowned designer.

If the company has stopped trading then who is this: http://www.laurentgiles.co.uk/ note the "site updated" date of 22/10/02 and the comment :

"Managing Director Barry van Geffen, drawing on the Giles ethos, continues to create new custom sailing and power yacht designs in the same tradition that one expects from the the name Laurent Giles"

I am pretty sure that voluntary liquidation involves not pretending you are still a company, still the MD and updating your website...

One might assume that these guys : http://www.sea.edu/SEA2000/NewsUpda...ipArchitect.htm owe Laurent Giles Ltd some money?

I am always convinced that there are two sides to every story but the picture and the arbitration dont seem to leave much room for error!

Good luck.

Paul

peter tate 11-14-2002 10:26 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Design/Laurent Giles

Laurent Giles now trade under the name Laurent Giles Navel Architects Ltd. When they designed my yacht they were called Laurent giles Ltd. although they are the same people.
Laurent Giles himself is a long time dead these chaps just use his name.
We can only assume that the next time they have an insurance claim or are in financial difficulties they will change the name to Laurent Giles something else Ltd.

Peter

www.laurentgiles.com (http://www.laurentgiles.com)

Polarity 11-18-2002 08:04 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I am not entirely mistaken that sort of activity used to be rife (take money, deliver shody goods, close, re-open under different name ... double glazing companies were the prime offenders!) until a law was changed and stated that it was fraud and as such became illegal. At least in the UK?

Any Uk lawyers out there ?

Paul

JPigott 11-18-2002 12:42 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps it's the LTD and that they are seemingly not a capital or asset intensive company.

[George Roberts]

Bob Cleek ---

200k pounds seems like a small sum for a business that is as highly regarded and highly employeed as you say Giles is.

A small sum in that it is too small for bankruptcy. A small sum in the sense that it should be far below the deductable on e&o (or whatever type of) insurance in the matter.

In any case it is a black eye for all boat builders.

[apindrans]

What crap!

I may be biased because I own a Vertue. But to spite a company just because you were pissed off because of some malfunction is pure arrogance, and a lack of empathy of what a boat is, and what it can do.

If my boat sinks I will not be blaming the designer or builder, but my incompetence in looking after her.

Andy Indrans

[redurchin]

Laurent Giles Naval Architects Ltd. wrote me back and gave me the info I needed to order plans. I understand building a boat is a big financal commitment as materials are expensive, even when I use local woods from friends with misers. I did not realise that the plans would cost 2400 pounds. then there is somthing called VAT on top of the plan price? I don't know know how much canadian that is but it sounds heavy. Any way I guess If I decide to build a vertue that I can legaly call a vertue The cost of plans will test my commitment

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I can offer a bit of good news - the VAT is not payable on an export order outside the EU. Also, some designers (I cannot speak for LG&P) charge the royalty in two parts, at the start and at the end of building.

I personally know two amateur built Vertues - "Maid of Tesa", a Bermudian short doghouse version, built in the UK, and "FIONN" a gaff rigged "ocean cruising" version, built in Australia, but now in the UK.

Both are well up to professional boatbuilding standards, and have changed hands at high prices; it clearly can be done.

Personally, I like Ian's PATIENCE best, but these things are a matter of taste.

[Keith Wilson]

While the Vertue is certainly a wonderful boat, the price of plans is very high compared to other comparable designs. Does anyone know who is selling plans for Lyle Hess's designs since he died? He designed several excellent boats of a similar type.

I don't know enough about the case of Peter Tate's boat to say anything intelligent, but one entirely reasonable explanation is that "Laurent Giles Ltd." is no longer what it was when Laurent Giles was alive. The fact that the arbitrator's decision was so entirely in Mr. Tate's favor is suggestive, at least. This has nothing to do with the quality of the Vertue design or plans, of course, but it does bear on the quality of support one might expect when building to those plans.

[ 07-06-2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[Bob Cleek]

"Jack" Laurent Giles died in 1972. The firm was called Laurent Giles and Partners until somewhat recently when the last of the line of partners who actually worked with Giles himself retired. The the name was changed to Laurent Giles Ltd. I believe Mr. Matthew and one other original partner remain "of counsel" to the firm. Humphrey Barton passed away a few years ago, but I hear his widow is still alive.

As for the price of plans, go out there and comparison shop. Give Sparkman and Stevens a call and see what they want for stock plans. Or even call Lyle Hess' daughter who sells his plans. (Which aren't the same, but that's another story.) Maybe Giles is high, but I think you will be surprised by what real plans cost. This isn't a cheap hobby, guys.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Bob Cleek:
As for the price of plans, go out there and comparison shop. Give Sparkman and Stevens a call and see what they want for stock plans. Or even call Lyle Hess' daughter who sells his plans. (Which aren't the same, but that's another story.) Maybe Giles is high, but I think you will be surprised by what real plans cost. This isn't a cheap hobby, guys.For that type and size of boat, the plans cost seems just at the upper end of average for good stock plans to me. As I wrote above, maybe 1 or 2% of the cost of the boat. After all, without them all you've got is a pile of wood.

[StevenBauer]

How good are those Vertue plans? It seems like plans from the WoodenBoat Store are a fraction of that price.

Vertue -- 2400 pounds or $4218.00
(Using todays exchange rate)

25'3" LOA
21'6" LWL
7'2" beam
4'6" draft
9,300 lbs. displacement
4,000 lbs. ballast
320 sq. ft. sail area

-----------------------------------------------

25'7" Sea Bird Yawl -- $75
Thomas Fleming Day & Charles Mower

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400003.JPG

Oceangoing carvel-planked cruiser with a choice of centerboard or ballast keel configurations.

LOA - 25' 7"
LWL - 20' 11"
Beam - 8' 0"
Draft (cb up) - 1' 11"
(cb down) - 5'
Displ. - about 5,000 lbs.
Sail Area - 383 sq. ft.
Construction: Carvel planked over sawn frames
Alternative construction: Strip
Lofting is required
Skill level: Intermediate to Advanced
Plans include 7 sheets.
--------------------------------------------------

24' Gaff Yawl -- $125
by Fenwick C. Williams

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400016.JPG

A simple, spacious, singlehanded cruiser designed for carvel construction.

LOA - 24'
LWL - 21' 4"
Beam - 8' 8"
Draft - 3' 10"
Displ. - about 9,100 lbs.
Sail Area - 333 sq. ft.
Construction: Carvel planked over steamed frames
Alternative construction: Cold-molded or strip
Lofting is required
Skill level: Advanced
Plans include 7 sheets.

----------------------------------------

24'11" Keel/Centerboard Sloop -- $135
by John Alden
http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400002.JPG

A fast and able auxiliary cruiser with wheel steering and accommodations for three.

LOA - 24' 11"
LWL- 22' 0"
Beam - 9' 6"
Draft (cb up) - 3' 0"
(cb down) - 6' 7"
Displ. - about 8,500 lbs.
Sail Area - 503 sq. ft.
Construction: Carvel Planked over steamed frames
Alternative construction: Cold-molded or strip
Lofting is required
Skill level: Advanced
Plans include 5 sheets

------------------------------------------

Sure a Vertue is a great boat, but Day/Mower, Alden and Williams designed some great boats, too

Steven

Edited to add Vertue's stats

[ 07-06-2005, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: StevenBauer ]

[Bob Cleek]

The boat plans that are available from WB are generally plans that are in the public domain or have been published in other forms. I suspect that, perhaps with the exception of the Alden designs, WB is not paying much, if anything, in commissions to the designers at this late date. That is entirely proper. I have all sorts of similar plans in books I've collected which one could build from with a clear conscience.

On the other hand, Giles is an ongoing concern. Although their original classic draughts are now in the collection of the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, the firm has retained the rights. This is their intellectual property. The designs are not in the public domain. If you use their plans, you are using their work and they are entitled to be paid for it. I doubt anyone will dispute that.

The plans for the Vertue and other Giles designs which I have studied are extremely well done. The level of detail is superb. The Vertue itself cannot be compared to other boats in its size range. The boat was designed to comply with Lloyds 100A1+ standards and is exceptionally heavily built. It also has a number of engineering features, such as the mast support yoke frame assembly, which must be done right and plans provided for that. All the joinerwork is shown and all the furniture. The same goes for all the fittings for the double spreader double headstay rig, and drawings of the highfield levers and so on. Again, as I said, you also get the firm's ongoing consultation and supervision to the extent you desire it. I believe they can even do your lofting for you in CAD on mylar these days and ship it off. Their plans are a long, long, way from a WB "how to built it" set.

I've priced plans here and there over the years, and never found Giles to be exceptionally costly. Keep in mind that you aren't just buying xerox or blueline copies of some old plans, you are also buying the right to build a boat someone else designed for a living.

Perhaps I should mention that WB number 24 or 25 has an article on Giles and on the Vertue design. There are study plans in there if you want to get a general idea of her. Also, Giles sells "study plans" (the lines and sail plan and some construction details) for very little, if you just want to take a look at a design. These do not include the table of offsets and other data necessary to cheat them out of a commission, though!

[ 07-06-2005, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[redurchin]

Well after lots of thinking and changing my mind and then re- thinking , I found the boat I am going to build! Paul Gartsides # 98, 24 ft gaff cutter. Kind of like a vertue, but more beam and gaff rigged. I have built a gartside before, A 15 ft Sailing Dinghy Design #148. Great experience. Paul linked me to my site on the building the boat. http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail.php#148

The best part Is that Paul answers my emails right away , he is going to start building the same boat for a costumer in september and he only lives a few hours away. Pauls plans are 475 canadian dollars compared to 5000 dollars for the vertue. That is a lot of wood, well a little bit anyway....
It is going to be a bit before I start lofting though , I am going to start next spring.

rick
http://www.rickcorless.com/98.htm

[Keith Wilson]

NICE boat!! It's no small projecct, but the results will be worth it. You'll improve the scenery wherever you sail her.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/98rev-profile.jpg

[redurchin]

I wanted to add this picture of the plans in my post but did'nt work so here they are
http://www.rickcorless.com/98rev-profile.jpg

[YMT]

You cannot go wrong building a Gartside boat. I have been a long time admirer of his drafting and boat building abilities. http://www.tantonyachts.com/936Prof.jpg
26' wooden offshore cutter.(not a Gartside)

[Venchka]

Most excellent! $4,550 buys a ton of wood. Maybe two. :D Keep us updated!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Bob Cleek]

Well, as they say, "whatever floats yer boat!" And not to rain on your parade, but I'd be looking at a whole lot of similar designs before I settled on that one. I didn't design it, so I didn't do the stability calculations, but from my experience with gaffers, I'd say that that sail play is WAY too "high aspect" for a gaffer. You are sacrificing the gaffer's advantage off the wind with that short foot. Given the size of the boat, that topsail will probably be more trouble than it is worth, particularly with the peak as high as it is. You might want to take a look at some other gaff sail plans, even those posted here. (BTW, not to push the Vertue, by it was originally designed with a gaff rig and sprit and those options are still available in the Giles plans.) While I don't have the body plan for the boat pictured, I would say that the sail plan is not suitable for serious offshore work. In fact, there is practically nothing short of a Vertue which is in that size range.

[donald branscom]

[QUOTE=Aramas]Regarding the litigation site, no one sinks a boat at sea and gets into a life raft with their entire family on board. How could anyone even suggest such a thing?

Secondly, designing a vessel ten inches down on the dwl when empty (which on a vessel that size is an error of something in the

[QUOTE]

To build that boat in steel they would have to go over the numbers carefully to keep the weight acceptable. Like almost no framing.I have seen arogance like this before.
One time a company was going to build a 50 ft. boat in aluminum
I personally saw the plans and the scantlings were all to light and I told the person. I was laughed at. Later (3 months or so) it went out for sea trials and the keel folded up. The lawsuits and blame started to fly. What these people always forget ; that are in charge of the projects, is to get a person that knows what they are doing even if they don't look flashy. Thats all I will say.

[donald branscom]

[QUOTE=Bob Cleek]Well, it seems the Tates haven't given up yet. Sad situation. They have been on a crusade to besimirch Laurent..... [QUOTE]

You know a lot. I agree with most of what you say.
But its bothers me about some of the things you say.
The first thing is you keep "bad mouthing" "backyard boatbuilders"
Its not the facility - its the skill and knowledge the boat builder has.PERIOD.
The persons training and experience, NOT a big fancy organization, yard or "NAME".

The fact the owners wanted the steel taken better care of IS CORRECT. Especially for a small boat with light steel plating.
Once the rust has started, even WITH sandblasting the rust can form blumes that go all the way thru the fabric of the metal and even with grit blasting and epoxy paint the rust will come back. With a reputation like theirs I would have used preprimed plate and put prime on the weld areas at the end of each workday.
Also if you are being well paid why not honor the owners request.

I agree with you on the other issues though. Once they took it from the yard all bets are off. Just my opinion.

[donald branscom]

Andrew and others in the UK, do you know anything further on the matters discussed on the www.laurentgiles.com (http://www.laurentgiles.com) website???

The allegations are grave, although the information respecting the owner's "homebuilding" activities is sketchy at best, and may exculpate the Laurent Giles people to some extent.

This is worth some examination of this forum. I'd like to get at the truth of the matter, whatever and wherever it may be.

Alan

[ 07-05-2005, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

Sorry double post by accident. Nevermind.

[Hwyl]

Bob Cleek ---

200k pounds seems like a small sum for a business that is as highly regarded and highly employeed as you say Giles is.

A small sum in that it is too small for bankruptcy. A small sum in the sense that it should be far below the deductable on e&o (or whatever type of) insurance in the matter.

In any case it is a black eye for all boat builders.

Here's an opportunity George

Peter and Frances are owed approximatelly 200,000.00 G.B.P. by Laurent Giles Ltd. (now Breifgoals ).
If you can give them information that leads to the recovery of all or part of this money they are willing to give you 25% of what they get.

[Howard Sharp]

I've been watching the price of Vertue plans for about 20 years, and until a few years ago they were in the range (ie about double) what you would pay for a comparable US off the shelf plan. In the 90s they were about £600. I think there was a point when they doubled to £1200. Most of the recent amateur-built Vertues were built to plans at those prices. Now I think they've decided to price themselves out of the amateur market. Very occasionally you'll find good used Vertues for about 5 times the cost of the plans.

[Bob Cleek]

Well, I sort of doubt that Giles is really all that intent on selling Vertue plans for amateur construction, actually. The Vertue is really not a boat anyone would urge an amateur to build. We're talking "Bugatti Sailboat" here, not a "Bucket T roadster." The price of the hardware alone would give most amateurs the chills.