Another Post About Dogs

[Rocky]

I've always wondered why there is such a wealth of references to dogs as vile creatures, eg. filthy curs, running dogs of imperialism, I shot the dog down, even C3PO saying die Jedi dogs in the latest Star Wars movie. What gives? Do we love them or hate them? Perhaps the best way to assess a culture is not by how it treats its poor or its prisoners or its aged but by how it treats it dogs.

[ahp]

I believe that dogs are truly our best friends in more ways than we may know.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I like my dog better than I like people for the most part. ;)

[Dutch Rub]

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated....... I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man. Mahatma Gandhi

[ishmael]

I dunno Rocky, interesting question.

I wonder if that traditionally in many cultures dogs weren't treated well, or trained, and so did become mangy, ill-mannered, running in ravenous packs etc.

My brother has a friend from Iran who once said, "Ya know Bill, if reincarnation is true I want to come back as an American dog." smile.gif

Guess he didn't know about puppy mills.

[Rocky]

It would make an interesting paper about social relations in poor cultures. Perhaps they're considered opportunistic, or disloyal to humans, or loyal only to their packs. Some old travel books mention societies just swarming with semiferal dogs. Ah, the things I could have studied if I hadn't gone to college! Calling Foucalt!

In our society a dog is part of our pack, or we of his. In other societies that may not be true.

[ 03-11-2003, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Rocky ]

[Sam F]

In this matter a dog’s quality is it's essential subservience.
While a dog can be man's best friend, it is never as an equal, but always in a supporting role. Since dogs are humble, they make good exemplars of the lowly, and less worthy.
They are always at the beck and call of others, hence the derogatory nature of so many expressions about them.

That partially explains the popularity of dogs. Most men adore having something, indeed anything, subservient to them.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Sam, you REALY don't like dogs do ya ? tongue.gif
I have the exact opposite feeling about my dogs I hope to become the better person my dog believes I am. I strive to be as good and as kind and as loving and humble as my dog. He is not only my best friend but I'm his. We hang out were buds. When I want to go sailing he is like what took you so long lets go. We have many unspoken agreements, he comforts me when I'm down and a scratch his jowls when he needs it most. If anything I'm more subservient to him than he is to me, but on a whole we have a balanced relationship. I love my dog and he loves me its just that simple.

[Donn]

Originally posted by Sam F:
In this matter a dog’s quality is it's essential subservience.
While a dog can be man's best friend, it is never as an equal, but always in a supporting role. Since dogs are humble, they make good exemplars of the lowly, and less worthy.
They are always at the beck and call of others, hence the derogatory nature of so many expressions about them.

That partially explains the popularity of dogs. Most men adore having something, indeed anything, subservient to them.Sam, you scurvy cat, you couldn't be more wrong. Dogs humble?? Hardly. Did you see "Mick," the Kerry Blue Terrier that won Westminster this year? Just watching him parading around the ring in his victory lap, playing to the crowd, consummately proud of himself...hard to call that humble. Calling a dog subservient is like calling a caring husband subservient to his wife, or children.

Dogs are popular with humans, not because they serve them, but because they love them, and humans love to be loved.

[Rocky]

You got something there, Sam, it's got something to do with heirarchy and the pack mentality. Humans are pack animals too, so the dog fits into our pack very tightly. Doesn't each pack have a beta that supports and abets the alpha? And directs it in subtle ways? For most men that beta is (ideally) the wife, but for some the dog plays that role - Joe's dog sure does! tongue.gif My guy makes his opinion quite clear but accepts my decision of course. Still doesn't explain why some people hate them for doing this.

Perhaps in some societies the dog in your life may not be in your pack, thus he would seem very disloyal, take your food then run off with other humans or dogs.

Irrelevant tidbit: in Mongolia until very recently human dead were thrown out in the fields to be eaten by dogs!

[ 03-12-2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Rocky ]

[Sam F]

Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
Sam, you REALY don't like dogs do ya ? tongue.gif
As I have said before, I do not hate dogs! One of my friends runs a boarding kennel for goodness sake! Their place is crawling with dogs and I’ve no problem with most of them.
I give dogs credit for being individuals. Some are worthy of affection others manifestly not.

My observations on their nature is not a moral judgment, just an observation on Rocky’s initial question. We have before us linguistic evidence of dog's low estate. This is not some foreign concept from New Guinea, but one native to our own culture. Why is this the case? I gave one possible and defensible explanation. There may of course be additional reasons or alternate explanations.

Keep in mind that our current craze for pets is enabled by relative affluence. My own maternal grandparents viewed pets as a worthless luxury that took food away from people.
My paternal grandfather took a beautiful and friendly purebred hunting dog out and shot him because the beast was gun shy and couldn’t be broken of it. (My mother never forgave him for that, btw). In the old days, a “pet” was expected to carry his own weight. A lack of utility simply wasn’t often tolerated.

[ishmael]

One oft-cited reason for Amundsen beating Scott to the Southpole, is his speed and efficiency of travel. He and his men traveled on ski, and with dog sleds. What isn't as often talked about is that he coldly calculated precisely when how many dogs would be killed to provide food, thus lightening the need to carry provender, and also lightening the requirements of pre-expedition caching of food and supplies. The system worked beautifully--if not from the dog's point of view.

I think some of Sam's points well taken. Our attitudes have changed, and this largely because of our wealth. And, we've become a much more disconnected society; our pets surrogate friends and companions.

All that said, a good dog is a special creature. I can only imagine many of Amundsen's men protesting, if only in their hearts, the slaughter of such fine companions. The Brits under Scott, faced with much less well organized decisions regarding their dogs and ponies certainly did, and not only in their hearts.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Ish Shackleton and the men on Endurence cried and were upset when the dogs on there expidition died or had to be killed it was the hardest thing they had to endure, and as we know they endured A LOT.

[Sam F]

Originally posted by Rocky:
For most men that beta is (ideally) the wife, but for some the dog plays that role - Maybe in your family! :D :D

I was being very old fashioned in my use of the term "men". By that I mean Mankind and include the fairer sex as well.

In an age of prenuptial agreements, it’s ironic how people romanticize pet ownership. Many bristle at the mere thought of a pet fulfilling some human psychological need. Mutual love not withstanding, why shouldn’t people’s relationships with pets have some element of self-interest? Hasn’t that always been the case?
But then, I’m a cat so what would I know? :rolleyes:

Donn,
That's humble as in "Humble estate". I’ve known too many pushy and arrogant dogs to attribute the Christian virtue of humility to all dogs.

[Matt J.]

Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
Sam, you REALY don't like dogs do ya ? tongue.gif
I have the exact opposite feeling about my dogs I hope to become the better person my dog believes I am. I strive to be as good and as kind and as loving and humble as my dog. He is not only my best friend but I'm his. We hang out were buds. When I want to go sailing he is like what took you so long lets go. We have many unspoken agreements, he comforts me when I'm down and a scratch his jowls when he needs it most. If anything I'm more subservient to him than he is to me, but on a whole we have a balanced relationship. I love my dog and he loves me its just that simple.Joe, I think you stated it best. Lilly will be gone by the time I get home late tonight, and I just can't stop thinking how I wish I could look forward to that little face so full of love and trust... Summer and Teddy are only "subservient" or beta by necessity - someone's got to buy and provide the food and make executive decisions. I pride myself on my treatment of dogs (animals, really, but especially dogs) as near equals. My love for them and their kind is based solely on their innocence and love for me and Jenny, not on subservience. Their weight to carry is to be kind, patient, and loving.

-matt

[Sam F]

Originally posted by Matt Joyce:
[QUOTE]Joe, I think you stated it best. Lilly will be gone by the time I get home late tonight, and I just can't stop thinking how I wish I could look forward to that little face so full of love and trust... Summer and Teddy are only "subservient" or beta by necessity - someone's got to buy and provide the food and make executive decisions. I pride myself on my treatment of dogs (animals, really, but especially dogs) as near equals. My love for them and their kind is based solely on their innocence and love for me and Jenny, not on subservience. Their weight to carry is to be kind, patient, and loving.

-mattMatt, I don't doubt for one second the mutual love that people have with their pets... and I'm not just talking about dogs and cats but also parrots and the like. (I have my doubts about pet snakes though!) That doesn't change a dog's subservient position however. Imagine how you'd feel if the tables were turned. smile.gif Luckily dogs don't mind a bit. Well, normal dogs don’t mind anyway...

[Rocky]

The dog's estate is only humble within your pack, and not as humble as it seems, because his humility and loyalty are serving his purpose of getting you to take care of him. And some dogs will abandon you in a moment (or indicate a willingness to) if you fail to fulfil your part of the bargain. There's affection, sure, but that's not all of it. Asians don't seem to share our maudlin affection for dogs.

I read once that if a dogsleddder shows undue favoritism toward one dog the others will kill it.

[ 03-12-2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Rocky ]

[ahp]

I have my own speculation which may be wrong. When my ancestors walked out of Africa, there was a dog trotting along beside them. At that time there were three other branchs of the huminoids, the Neanderthals, and two others whose names I have forgotten. They didn't have dogs.

We and the others sometimes occupied the same areas at the same time. We survivied. they did not. The last Neanderthal died in Spain about 30,000 years ago. Did our relation with dogs give us the compeditive advantage to survive. I think so.

[Iceboy]

Can you say anthropomorphize?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Sam F:
Keep in mind that our current craze for pets is enabled by relative affluence. My own maternal grandparents viewed pets as a worthless luxury that took food away from people.
My paternal grandfather took a beautiful and friendly purebred hunting dog out and shot him because the beast was gun shy and couldn’t be broken of it. (My mother never forgave him for that, btw). In the old days, a “pet” was expected to carry his own weight. A lack of utility simply wasn’t often tolerated.So Sam ya think these dogs are worthless?? Ya think these dogs carry there own weight ??
I like to see another animal do as much as these Lowly dogs do.


http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/0109/pictures/wtc2_rescue-dog-transported.jpg "They will search endlessly for that scent until they are called off." — Lori Mohr, National Disaster Search Dog Foundation

http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/0109/pictures/wtc2_wall-st-durac.jpg
http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/0109/pictures/wtc2_dusty-wall-st.jpg
At Federal Hall, Officer D. McFadden and "Durac" (left) help oversee the safe, smooth opening of the New York Stock Exchange after the longest suspension of securities trading in history. (Photo: Sep 17, 2001, AP / Ted S. Warren) ...While inside, "Dusty", a SAR dog from Sacramento, rings the opening bell. (Photo: Sep 19, 2001, Reuters)

http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/0109/pictures/wtc_blacklab-rubble.jpg
"If these dogs only knew what a difference they make.* Certainly, there's nothing that can replace the precision of a dog's nose—and absolutely nothing that can replace a dog's heart."
*— Bob Sessions, rescue worker, Federal Emergency Management Agency

http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/0109/pictures/wtc3_porkchop.jpg
"But then, if I was laying at the bottom of that pile, maybe a dog would lift my morale."
— Unidentified rescue worker
http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/0110/pictures/wtc4_sardoga-sleepyflag.jpg http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/0109/pictures/wtc2_comfort-city.jpg

[ 03-12-2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[Rocky]

No doubt dogs helped us hunt back in the good old days, but I'll bet Neandertals used them too.

I think human social structures are almost identical to canine social structures. Each pack has a leader and a lieutenant, and each member of the pack has a role. Humans are cursed with multiple loyalties, which leads to dysfunction and strife. And some individuals become rogues, unable or unwilling to accept their role in the pack. Dogs tend to accept their roles more readily than humans do, and are therefore more constant and loyal. But you can see instances of dog dysfunction just like you can see instances of human dysfunction, and the elements of the dysfunction are similar if not identical.

[ 03-12-2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Rocky ]

[Rex Fearnehough]

Rocky, don't ever do that again. My head is too full already.
I wanted to know the answer to your question, so I have now untidied my home again with books all over the place.
Okay I can only go back 3,000yrs in history.
So here goes.
In the Middle East, dogs were venerated and already in use or domesticated.
In Mesopotamia they were even used to guard beer.
They were used in war for biting off gronicles etc. There has been a large cemetery for dogs unearthed in Mesop.
Camp followers were followed by strays and any meat left on battle fields were probably a dietary supplement. This wouldn't have been a problem, due to their veneration, unless of course it happened to be your leg that they were gnawing on.
The Bible seems to the first to use dogs in disdain. A curse was put on someone that the dogs would lick his blood in the same place as the blood of his victim.
It would seem that Christianity in its attempt to belittle earlier religions, reversed the role of a previously hallowed beast.
Sox has vetted this post and she agrees.
She also said we should go back to the old ways.
Aaargh she's looking at my leg! ;)

[Rocky]

Well we know who's the beta in your pack, Rex - you! tongue.gif

[Rex Fearnehough]

I forgot to add that they also go running in fields where animals are grazing and come back licking their lips. I don't want to know why.
They also decide at times that they have to know what they have just eaten, so out it comes. They then study it for a while, smell it and then back it goes.
In both the above cases they then wait for an off guard moment and slap their tongues all over your face.
Yes Sox has me well trained Rocky.
http://www.smilies.nl/dieren/dogrun.gif

[Bill Dodson]

Epitaph To a Dog
Near this spot
Are deposited the Remains
Of one
Who possessed Beauty
Without Vanity,
Strength without Insolence,
Courage without Ferocity,
And all the Virtues of Man
Without his Vices.

The Price, which would be unmeaning flattery
If inscribed over Human Ashes,
Is but a just tribute to the Memory of
“Boatswain,” a Dog
Who was born at Newfoundland,
May, 1803,
And died in Newstead Abbey,
Nov. 18, 1808.

When some proud son of man returns to earth,
Unknown by glory, but upheld by birth,
The sculptor’s art exhausts the pomp of woe,
And stories urns record that rests below.
When all is done, upon the tomb is seen,
Not what he was, but what he should have been.
But the poor dog, in life the firmest friend,
The first to welcome, foremost to defend,
Whose honest heart is still his master’s own,
Who labors, fights, lives, breathes for him alone,
Unhonored falls, unnoticed all his worth,
Denied in heaven the soul he held on earth –
While man, vain insect! hopes to be forgiven,
And claims himself a sole exclusive heaven.

Oh man! thou feeble tenant of an hour,
Debased by slavery, or corrupt by power –
Who knows thee well must quit thee with disgust,
Degraded mass of animated dust!
Thy love is lust, thy friendship all a cheat,
Thy smiles hypocrisy, thy words deceit!
By nature vile, ennoble but by name,
Each kindred brute might bid thee blush for shame.
Ye, who perchance behold this simple urn,
Pass on – it honors none you wish to mourn.
To mark a friend’s remains these stones arise;
I never knew but one – and here he lies.

Lord Byron’s tribute to “Boatswain,” on a monument in the garden of Newstead Abbey.

[Donn]

That's lovely, Bill...thanx.

[ 03-12-2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[Ken Hutchins]

As anyone who has worked with dogs knows, they just love to please their human companions.
If their humans work with them and allow them to do what the breed was developed for they will certainly respond.
One of the most dramatic examples of this is currently underway, The Iditarod sled dog race to Nome Ak to commerate the Diptheria serum run which saved the people of Nome.
Check the race out on their WEB site


Iditarod (http://www.iditarod.com/)
I personally know how much these dogs love to run as I am a former dog-sledder myself.