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Donn
08-05-2005, 05:00 PM
A lack of guilt makes Bush right on global warming
John Kay
8/6/2005


"In the recent Group of Eight (G-8) Gleneagles discussions on climate change, US President George W. Bush made four assertions: there are large uncertainties about the science and the economics; the Kyoto agreement would involve large costs and negligible benefits for the US; proposals to deal with greenhouse gas emissions that exclude developing countries are ineffective; and that research and development on new technologies should take priority over expenditure for meeting emissions reduction targets. It pains me to say it but on all points Mr Bush is right.

We know that average surface temperatures have been increasing since 1975. We do not know why. We know that human activities have contributed to this increase but not by how much. The size of the human contribution is of indirect significance since the problems that arise from global warming would occur whatever its cause. The size of the anthropogenic component is significant only because if human activity can have a major effect on raising world temperature it can also have a major effect on moderating an increase.

The debate has become so polarised that it is more and more difficult to pick one's way through it. The best recent short guide to the issues I know was published on the eve of the Gleneagles summit by the Economic Affairs Committee of Britain's House of Lords. The report is balanced in approach and conclusions, and has therefore received little attention. The most trenchant paragraphs describe the ways in which politics, science and advocacy have become entwined. The voices of people who know how little we know are routinely drowned by those who claim to know far more than they or we do.

The Kyoto treaty is inconsequential because even if fully implemented it would not change greenhouse gas concentrations by much. If the degree of potential warming is large -- say 5.0oC over the next century -- reducing that figure to 4.5oC is nowhere near enough. If the degree of potential warming is small -- say 0.5oC over the next century -- a policy which reduces that figure to 0.45oC imposes costs a great deal larger than its benefits. There is no scenario in which actions that reduce global concentrations by a small amount make much sense. Since a small amount is exactly what we are doing, this is a key conclusion. We should, instead, either take major action or focus on adapting to any consequences.

What would be involved in doing a lot? The US accounts for just over 20 per cent of greenhouse gas output and Europe and Japan for a bit less. The whole of the developed world contains 800m people, compared with 2.4bn in India and China. The future level of greenhouse gas emissions is governed mainly by the increasing demand for transport and electricity as economic development progresses in these countries. This is the issue that matters on climate change. It is almost the only issue that matters on climate change.
And it points to the only way in which, if western leaders did take climate change seriously, the issue could be tackled. Rich countries must pay for the research and development that would make developing and running a low carbon infrastructure affordable by poorer countries. This is a matter for serious science, not wind farms and bicycle-to-work day.

Only nuclear technology fulfils these requirements today but its deployment on a global scale raises as many problems as it solves. There are many options that might become but are not yet commercially viable -- hydrogen, photovoltaics, fusion. There are some not yet imagined. It is a curious lacuna that the most technologically progressive century in history ended with fuel technologies not fundamentally different from those employed when it began. And that we still do not have any cheap way of storing electricity. These are the projects on which action against climate change should focus.

Many of the people who express concern about climate change do not want a technological solution. Their concern is really an expression of guilt about materialism, distaste for capitalism and fear of technology. It is because Mr Bush does not experience any of these feelings that he is right on this issue. "

Financial Express - Bangladesh (http://financialexpress-bd.com/index3.asp?cnd=8/6/2005&section_id=8&newsid=9300&spcl=no)

seafox
08-05-2005, 05:11 PM
it notes that p[hotovotaics are not comercially viable. I wonder if the cost of one or two nucular power plants were put into a large scale factory and buying and installing the output if it would not by economys of scale make it comericially viable

I did a thought exparament and found that the pay mack at todays rates would be 47.5 years leaving 2.5 years profet or roughtly 5% retrn on a 50 year investment.

what are the economics of wind farms? what would the power generation of one huracain be if we had enough wind mills out there to strip out half the energy? their are other solar technologys including mirror fired boilers. seems to me that we should be concentrating on increeacing the power supply rather than cutting our throat by triming back the economy

Jim Hillman
08-05-2005, 05:28 PM
Watch out Donn, the Forum Thought Police are going to get you 'cuz you didn't comment on the article!

Donn
08-05-2005, 05:34 PM
:D

Actually, I called it "interesting" on another thread.

Jim Hillman
08-05-2005, 05:37 PM
:D

Bill Perkins
08-05-2005, 07:00 PM
"The size of the human contribution is of indirect significance since the problems that arise from global warming would occur whatever its cause."

This makes no sense . Let's adopt the phrase "indirect significance ". Does this magically excuse us from the responsibility to act responsibly ? The size of the human contribution to global warming is of "direct " significance ,I would argue ,to the formulation of rational policies that don't cheat future generations .This is what the debate is all about,and the issue can't be sidestepped by interested parties simply pumping out meaningless verbiage .Who is John Kay ?Why do you buy into this stuff Donn?

[ 08-05-2005, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

Donn
08-06-2005, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Bill Perkins:
Who is John Kay ?Why do you buy into this stuff Donn?"John Kay is one of Britain’s leading economists. His interests focus on the relationships between economics and business. His career has spanned academic work and think tanks, business schools, company directorships, consultancies and investment companies."

What have I "bought into?"

Who is Bill Perkins?

George Roberts
08-06-2005, 08:53 AM
While the US position stated matches mine, I am not sure if Bush as adopted the "science" to suit his position or has adopted the position to suit the "science."

I think for most governments "science" is adopted to suit a political position.

But I am happy with the outcome.

George.
08-06-2005, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Donn:
...research and development on new technologies should take priority over expenditure for meeting emissions reduction targets. .... The whole of the developed world contains 800m people, compared with 2.4bn in India and China. The future level of greenhouse gas emissions is governed mainly by the increasing demand for transport and electricity as economic development progresses in these countries.

Rich countries must pay for the research and development that would make developing and running a low carbon infrastructure affordable by poorer countries. The article is inconsistent. What better way to promote the development of alternative technologies than to restrict the use of current fossil fuel technology, and make it more expensive? A perfect market-based solution.

As to it only affecting developed countries, those are the only countries that have the conditions necessary to develop an economy based on new, non-pollutiong energy sources. India and China will then be able to copy the new technologies, just like they are now copying the old ones.

John Kay must be a Marxist economist, preferring to have governments pay for research and technological development, rather than to have them simply create the economic incentives for the private sector in developed countries to do so.

[ 08-06-2005, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: George. ]

Donn
08-06-2005, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by George.:

John Kay must be a Marxist economist, preferring to have governments pay for research and technological development, rather than to have them simply create the economic incentives for the private sector in developed countries to do so.I don't see anything in this editorial that calls for "governments_pay for research and technological development......." He refers to rich countries, and leaders. Countries consist of much more than government, and leaders are not just political people.

I've been reading Kay for quite a while, in The Financial Times, and "Marxist" is probably the worst description of his economics.

Several of his essays, articles and editorials can be found
here (http://www.johnkay.com/) . You only need to scan the titles to see how far off your comment is.

Chris Stewart
08-06-2005, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Donn:
The Kyoto treaty is inconsequential because even if fully implemented it would not change greenhouse gas concentrations by much.That fact always seems to get lost in the political rhetoric


The US accounts for just over 20 per cent of greenhouse gas output and Europe and Japan for a bit less.And guess what? The US accounts for about 20 percent of the global GDP. Significantly reducing greenhouse gas output over the short term means significantly reducing GDP. A significant reduction in GDP is generally termed a depression.


It is a curious lacuna that the most technologically progressive century in history ended with fuel technologies not fundamentally different from those employed when it began.That is because those technologies remain the cheapest source of energy for their respective uses. When other technologies become cheaper, they will replace the existing ones.

The goal should be to hasten the development technologies that minimize greenhouse gasses. To the extent that global warming is caused by human-produced greenhouse gasses, this will yield the greatest positive impact. To the extent global warming is caused by non-human factors, future generations will just have to adapt.

huisjen
08-06-2005, 01:26 PM
From http://www.venganza.org/


You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool3.jpg

George.
08-06-2005, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Donn:
I don't see anything in this editorial that calls for "governments_pay for research and technological development......."
Rich countries must pay for the research and development that would make developing and running a low carbon infrastructure affordable by poorer countries. "Must" pay? Private enterprise will only pay if it has incentives to do so - not because it "must." And when someone says a country must pay for something, he means the whole country, not just its big business - i.e., the citizenry, through taxes, which means government.


Originally posted by Chris Stewart:
When other technologies become cheaper, they will replace the existing ones.
Exactly. And treaties like Kyoto would make alternative technologies cheaper, by making fossil fuel technology reflect its true costs, including environmental externalities.

Donn
08-06-2005, 04:57 PM
"And when someone says a country must pay for something, he means the whole country, not just its big business - i.e., the citizenry, through taxes, which means government." The citizenry pays, to be sure, but not only through taxes. They pay through consumption as well. The appetites of the market stimulate development of technology, and sponsor it by spending money on products.

George.
08-06-2005, 05:30 PM
OK. Forget Kyoto. How do you suggest the market should be stimulated to develop alternative energy technologies? Short of the government doing it with our tax money and handing them out to business? Seriously. I want to hear a functional proposal. Let's discuss this, no politics.

Donn
08-06-2005, 06:37 PM
"Short of the government doing it with our tax money...?" It can't be done without some government subsidy, with tax dollars. If that's a restriction to any proposed solution, I won't waste my time. It certainly doesn't leave politics out of it.

Remember, I'm one of the befuddled masses, bamboozled by Bush and Big Oil.

Chris Stewart
08-07-2005, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by George.:
Short of the government doing it with our tax money and handing them out to business? Government is sure to be involved, providing tax breaks for both producers and buyers of alternative technologies, added tax burden to users of carbon-based energy, and grants supporting research in new technologies. Rising oil prices will have a significant impact, too, as higher-priced alternatives will become more competitive, people will choose to buy cars that use less gas - or no gas (assuming the price differential of the more efficient car doesn't exceed its expected gas savings), and more people will choose to use public transportation (leading to more tax money spent to improve/extend public transportation).

Governments are likely to be among the first consumers of energy produced by alternative technologies as well. Some cities are already testing natural gas and electric vehicles, and are likely to be the first buyers of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles as well, installing their own centralized hydrogen refueling stations.

As soon as a new technology is both proven and proven to be cheaper, it will catch on like wildfire. Until then, however, it will be a long, slow, uphill fight.

Edited to add: Including China and India in the process, as Bush's recent pact does but Kyoto did not, is crucial. Not only are their greenhouse gas emissions growing much more rapidly, they do not have as extensive a carbon-based infrastructure already in place. Just as the rapid acceptance of cell phone technology in developing countries was enhanced by not having an extensive wire-line infrastructure already in place, acceptance of new non-carbon energy technology may be more rapid in developing countries because they do not already have as extensive an infrastructure supporting an effective, cheap carbon-based alternative.

[ 08-07-2005, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Chris Stewart ]

George.
08-07-2005, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Chris Stewart:
Including China and India in the process, as Bush's recent pact does but Kyoto did not, is crucial. Agreed that it is important - although I doubt they'll lead the way with alternative technologies.

But Bush's pact includes them? Have India and China signed on to this?

Norman Bernstein
08-07-2005, 07:44 PM
I was almost ready to buy off on many of the assertions of the original C&P.... until I got to the last paragraph:


Many of the people who express concern about climate change do not want a technological solution. Their concern is really an expression of guilt about materialism, distaste for capitalism and fear of technology. Yup, that one pretty much blew away what seemed like the credibility of the author. So, he knows what 'most prople' really have as an unspoken agenda, does he? That one is a bit like 'all blacks are shiftless and lazy', or my favorite, from the WSJ, describing poor people as 'lucky duckies' because they don't pay income tax.

The author ought to get a clue. A lot of people may not necessarily know for sure if global warming is a problem or not... but I don't see ANY reason to doubt the sincerity of their concern.

George.
08-08-2005, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Chris Stewart:
Government is sure to be involved, providing tax breaks for both producers and buyers of alternative technologies, added tax burden to users of carbon-based energy, and grants supporting research in new technologies. Which is exactly what Kyoto is doing in the countries that signed it.

Donn
08-08-2005, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by Norman Bernstein:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Many of the people who express concern about climate change do not want a technological solution.So, he knows what 'most prople' really have as an unspoken agenda, does he? </font>[/QUOTE]How easy it is to hop from "many" to "most."

I agree with him. For many, climate change is simply another plank in a political platform.

Donn
08-08-2005, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by George.:
Which is exactly what Kyoto is doing in the countries that signed it.It's being done in countries that didn't sign Kyoto, as well.

George.
08-08-2005, 06:19 AM
The US has added tax burden to fossil fuels, in order to internalize the environmental costs of their use?

That's news to me.