anchor chain

[pwilling]

I would like some opinions on whether to junk 220' of 5/16 BBB chain because the first 50' is pretty ratty, i.e. zinc gone and rusting. Or does anybody know of a suitable link that would let me bend in a new 50' piece?

Every time I look down at the chain disappearing in the deep dark damp, I say which one of you is the weakest one . . . nobody has answered (yet).

[Donn]

pwilling...take the old chain, and a new 20' length and a new 70'length to a welder, and have him cut off 70' off the rotten end, and 20' off the other end, and replace them with the new lengths. He'll know how to join them.

Or save some money and buy a whole new rode. Use the old chain to border your garden.

[reddog]

There are places that will test a short section of your chain to see if it is within specs.If it is you can have it cleaned and regalvanized.If not junk it as it's not worth risking your boat or life on.
Earl

[Bob Cleek]

Well, now... I'm not really interested in getting into a pissing contest with Don, which seems to be inevitable when anyone risks disagreeing with him, BUT... Welding anchor rode is a REALLY DUMB idea, not only in my not at all humble opinion, but probably in the opinon of just about anybody who knows what they are talking about. Buck bet if it fails anywhere, it's gonna fail at that weld. This isn't a matter of opinion. Opinions you can have all you want when being right isn't all that important. But, when it comes to spouting off advice that is dead wrong about stuff that can really hurt people, my BS meter pegs the needle.

Now look, you got 220' of 5/16 BBB and the first 50' (which is probably all anybody ever used, right?) is shot. (I'm assuming it is really eaten up, not simply rusty and easily replated at your neighborhood zinc store for a few bucks.) As Dirty Harry would say, "You gotta axe yerself one question: DO I REALLY NEED 220'? Well, do ya, punk?" Of course not. So, what you can do is either end-for-end the rode and use the good end, saving the last 50' for the day when you might need it. If you are really needing 220' of chain, well... by the time you get to the last 50', it ain't gonna matter much, is it?

Or, you could just cut the crappy 50' off with a hacksaw and make believe you've got 220'. Who's gonna measure it?

Or, you could cut off the crappy 50' and attach another 50' with the proper size joining link. These are sold anywhere chain is sold. They are designed to be just as strong as the chain they join. Not a big buck item. It's a very standard piece of hardware and very familiar to anybody who's ever worked even a little bit with chain. You do want to make sure you get one designed for your 5/16 BBB, because the joining link has to be the right size or it will hang up on your wildcat, which is made to fit your chain. (It is, isn't it?)

Anyway, that's the truth... and probably just what your local welder would tell you after he finished busting a gut looking at you standing there with 220' of 5/16 BBB dragging behind a guy wanting him to weld it.

And yes, Don, I do know that when new chain is made, the links are often welded... :rolleyes:

[Donn]

Cleeky..Jack's losing the battle tonight, eh?

Maybe your west coast welders just don't know how it's done. Our east coast welders do know how it's done, and it's alot more sound than any mechanical link you can buy. It also deals a whole lot better with the witch on the winch than a mechanical link.

Despite your expert opinion, I'd still go with my second suggestion. Save some money, and buy a new rode. 5/16 is just right for a low-set garden border.

I just love the way you can calculate things like how much rode this guy needs to anchor his boat, with so little information. What a surprise he'd get if he found himself needing more than 50' of chain rode. HAHAHA. Too bad, fool, you can't anchor here....you'll have to find someplace that only requires 50' of rode.

[rodcross]

What in Heavens name are you doing with 220' of chain? Cut off the excess and live with the rest.

The weight alone must bring your waterline down an inch and cost you an extra gallon an hour.

Consider why we use chain in the first place. The weight provides catanary action to the rode, relieves shock and puts less stress on the anchor set. The metal provides resistance to abrasive rock and coral bottoms. My philosophy is to use only as much chain as you need to accomplish that.

Don't forget. Nylon is stronger and more durable and far, far, easier to replace than chain. Splice 100' of nylon to the aft end of your rode. You'll never miss the lost chain.

[John R Smith]

Oh well, nice to have a bit of afight over something to do with boats, rather than politics ;)

Anyhow, if you DO decide to saw off the first 50 feet of knackered chain, don't do what I did, and simply attack it with a hacksaw with the chain propped up on a wood block on the foredeck.

About a fortnight later, I was puzzling over the fact that my previously immaculate cream-painted decks were now covered in thousands of tiny rust-spots . . .

Ho hum.

John

[Jonathan Kabak]

Here's my two cents,

First start by end-for-ending the chain as per Mr. Cleek's suggestion. If you can get away with slightly less than two shots go for it. If not, get fifty feet of new stuff and once again as Cleek says use a mechanical link to fasten them together. If you figure that for overnight holding in general conditions up to say force 6/7 you only need a 3:1 or 4:1 scope with chain then with even 180 feet you are still looking at 40 foot depths for anchoring without the additional chain.

Just my opinion

Jonathan

[Donn]

I actually dreamed about this thread last night.

Looking back on it, I guess I did jump to conclusions. When pwilling said he had a 220' rode of 5/16 BBB, I just assumed that he had an all-chain rode. Since 220' is about the minimum for a 40-50' boat anchoring in 50' of water, I further assumed that he carried that much because he considered it to be within his comfort range for being able to achieve a 4:1 scope in the areas he usually sets the hook.

Cleek said:

"Well, now... I'm not really interested in getting into a pissing contest with Don, which seems to be inevitable when anyone risks disagreeing with him, BUT... Welding anchor rode is a REALLY DUMB idea, not only in my not at all humble opinion, but probably in the opinon of just about anybody who knows what they are talking about. Buck bet if it fails anywhere, it's gonna fail at that weld. This isn't a matter of opinion. Opinions you can have all you want when being right isn't all that important. But, when it comes to spouting off advice that is dead wrong about stuff that can really hurt people, my BS meter pegs the needle."

Donn says:

Your condescending attitude aside, I'd be interested in knowing why welding anchor rode lengths together is "REALLY DUMB," and where this seemingly universal opinion is documented. I worked for years with 2" BBB logging chain, and we always welded sections together, using a specially tempered link that was stronger than any other link in the chain, and rode the tractor's PTO driven windlass well. I've been on wreck-fishing boats which used all-chain rodes (simply because it was easier to set and reset the hook closer to the wreck due the shorter scope requirements and the fact that it's much easier to do with a good windlass and an all-chain rode) and we welded lengths together before heading for a deep water wreck. Same deal as the logging chain, the link that was welded in was higher carbon steel than the BBB, and was alloyed with other metal and heat treated. Sure...they make riveted joining links, that, when properly installed, are as strong as the chain they are joining, but each of them has 4 potential points of failure, where a welded link has only one.

Cleek said:

"Now look, you got 220' of 5/16 BBB and the first 50' (which is probably all anybody ever used, right?) is shot. (I'm assuming it is really eaten up, not simply rusty and easily replated at your neighborhood zinc store for a few bucks.) As Dirty Harry would say, "You gotta axe yerself one question: DO I REALLY NEED 220'? Well, do ya, punk?" Of course not. So, what you can do is either end-for-end the rode and use the good end, saving the last 50' for the day when you might need it. If you are really needing 220' of chain, well... by the time you get to the last 50', it ain't gonna matter much, is it?

Or, you could just cut the crappy 50' off with a hacksaw and make believe you've got 220'. Who's gonna measure it? "

And rodcross said"

"What in Heavens name are you doing with 220' of chain? Cut off the excess and live with the rest."

Donn says:

I realize now that Bob and Rod must know pwilling's boat, and anchoring practices. Why else would they jump him so mercilessly for carrying too much chain? Not knowing him, I just assumed, as I stated above, that he was carrying a 220' all-chain rode for good reason. Now I see that I was wrong to give him the benefit of the doubt.

rodcross said:

"Consider why we use chain in the first place. The weight provides catanary action to the rode, relieves shock and puts less stress on the anchor set. The metal provides resistance to abrasive rock and coral bottoms. My philosophy is to use only as much chain as you need to accomplish that."

Donn says:

That's why chain is used in a nylon/chain rode. I can't imagine anyone using a 170' length of chain backed by nylon. There have probably been discussions on the forum about the relative merits of all-chain versus nylon/chain rode, but the fact is, a lot of people use all-chain for a variety of good reasons.

[John R Smith]

Well, I'm afraid there is one really dumb suggestion in here, and it's this one:

"As Dirty Harry would say, "You gotta axe yerself one question: DO I REALLY NEED 220'? Well, do ya, punk?" Of course not. So, what you can do is either end-for-end the rode and use the good end, saving the last 50' for the day when you might need it. If you are really needing 220' of chain, well... by the time you get to the last 50', it ain't gonna matter much, is it?"

So you put the weakest part of the chain where you are only ever going to need it in a real emergency -

In deep water, on a lee shore, with your engine gone.

And where the weak rusty part will be stressed around your stem roller and mooring bitt.

Sorry, Bob, normally I'm with you all the way, but this time I think you lost the plot.

John

[Ian McColgin]

I love it when everyone is right from some point of view. Since I have a 300' all chain rode to starboard and a 50' bit of chain with 600' nylon to port, I'm an obvious believer in longline overkill. In Nantucket Sound I almost never anchor in more than 30' of water so I don't 'need' all that - except when I'm holed up for a hurrican and then it's a true comfort. Anyway, one day I'll be in deeper water.

I am beginning to wonder about the stress of pulling up the whole rig from say 100', where I might have the whole chain shot out. The times I've done it I found that it's true - with an all chain rode the bottom part of the chain makes the cantery and you do not need 6:1 scope in that circumstance - a couple hundred feet of chain on the bottom does it. But it's a huge pain to bring home. Makes you realize that that thingy on the foredeck got its name because it leaved you with no breath left - 'windless.'

Faced with your dilemma I would either:

Link on new chain to the length you want (welded or not by local practice - either works if done right, both fail if done wrong); or

Carve up the good bits of the old chain for nice boat-length leaders on your other anchors (don't you want to have a pair of stern anchors) and buy some new for the chain rode.

G'luck

[paladin]

Darn....maybe I can start something too! Uhmmmm...lessee....220 feet of chain....less 50 feet....leaves about170 feet of good chain.....let's assume the boat is 57 feet long on deck.....seems about the right length of chain...a little light though...3/8th inch would make more sense....now..how long is your nylon rode...you know the rope part that you need to put some spring into the line instead of solid steel jerks......
The rule I have followed for 40 plus years izz chain 3 times boat length plus four times boat length in appropriate size nylon rode...ain't lost an acnchor...stayed glued solid to the bottom in a hurricane or two, never broke my boat.

You can do with a little less chain....and add a swivel bwtween the anchor and chain and between chain and rope rode. If you feel a little light on the chain hang a couple of 20 pound diving weights at the intersection of the rope and chain.

Welding...not generally a good idea, even with galvanizing over. The heat will cause crystallizing in the steel at the weld and really invite surface corrosion...it is done..but the part should be magnafluxed after welding, then galvanize...then painted with a chromate rich paint and then I would inspect it everytime it came up. My worry machine works overtime.....

[Scott Rosen]

I think the best idea was Donn's: Buy all new chain.

There's no margin for error in anchoring. It needs to work, all the time, without failure. As John points out, the failures will occur at the times of greatest stress and danger, when you can least afford it.

If fifty feet of chain is ratty, then there's a possibility that other parts of the chain are soon to follow. If you wanted to save 170 feet of the old chain, then use it for your lunch hook or for clear daylight weather only.

Personally I like nylon with a chain lead for the conditions I encounter. It's easy to handle, light and stretchy. The only things I worry about is the splice at the eye where the chain meets the rope, and also chaffe. I solved the splice problem by using nylon that it at least two sizes too thick and making the splice about three times as long as it really needs to be. The chaffe is easier to deal with. I wrap a plastic chaffe guard where the rope goes over the anchor roller and then I lash the rope and the chaffe guard to the roller to prevent sideways movement of the rope over the roller. I carry one rode of about 330 feet and another of 175 feet. I never use less than 1:7 scope and I try for 1:10 where there's room. I'm little fanatical about it, but I've never even dragged after a good set, no matter the conditions.

[pwilling]

Whew I feel like a gopher who started a tornado, then dove down his 'ole for a snooze. When he comes up for a look it's awful quiet, but there's a lot of windblown stuff around.

At the risk if getting dog-piled, here are the facts: 8 ton boat, 35' loa. Standard service ground tackle is all chain rode on a 35 lb CQR, with an old manual Simpson Lawrence windlass. It serves well in occasionally tight spots with lots of neighbors where 7:1 is not practical. Also have Chinese knock-off CQR with 30' of chain and nylon rode, and in the bilge a 45 lb bronze Fortress with a 7/8" rode.

Last summer I came back from a ten-day trip with no wind, and on the last night out anchored in ~25' in a shallow bay with a rock bottom. The hook set hard and felt right. Come 2200, wind was picking up. By 0100 it was blowing estimated 50 kts. No whisper of any of this from NOAA -- in fact two other places within 20 miles reported 5 - 8 kts at the same time. It blew like hell all night, with a tide running through the bay so the chain was leading back sternwards at an angle from the bow. Veered more chain, then still some more -- right out to the clinch. The chain grumbled and polished that cove pretty well, but everything held and the extra chain seemed to smooth the jerks out. So is 8:1 excessive for that situation -- how do you know how much catenary is enough??

No I don't want to have any doubts about the last 50' of my chain . . .

I talked to some local welders who are not used to doing chain, though in a (former) logging community I bet there are some. Verdict is they won't promise anything. Interesting to know there are places where it is customary to weld chain.

Also talked to a technical guy at Weissenfels, in Portsmouth RI, who manufactures a lot of anchor chain, and they say that a properly peened hammer link is equivalent in strength to the chain and is close enough in dimensions to run over the wildcat without a hangup. Simpson Lawrence has been bot out by Lewmar, and things are a bit confused there so I haven't got anything solid from that direction yet.

Thank you all for an interesting thread and some great info.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The really dumb bit is using BBB chain.

Only Americans do this. You cannot even buy it in Europe. It is higher tensile, so the good news is that it is stronger. The bad news is....

1. It is too light - much of the point of chain is that it is nice and heavy and forms a shock absorbing catenary. BBB comes up taut quicker, being lighter, and once chain does this it snaps, because the shock load is more than the strength of the chain EVEN IF IT IS BBB.

2. It rusts faster, being a higher carbon steel.

3. It needs annealing periodically, otherwise it may just snap anyway.

Perfectly good stuff for logging and for many other uses. Not good for boats!

Now go and but some mild steel 3/8" chain, which is the right size for your boat and anchor, buy a new gypsy for your windlass, to match the chain, and sleep soundly. When it starts to rust, get it re-galvanised.

And dump the knock off cast CQR and but another real, drop forged, one. Same principle.

OK?

[ 05-17-2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[Bob Cleek]

Well, actually, I WAS joking about figuring that by the time you got to the last 50' it wouldn't make much difference what shape it was in. We all make assumptions when we try to answer these questions in here. I'm assuming that what we are talking about is the common phenomenon were the end of the chain rode is rusty and funky because it gets most all of the use, while the tail end stays relatively pristine in the bottom of the chain locker. Most all the chain I've seen is in need only of a good regalvanizing. All in all, I still don't see much difference between 220' of chain and 170' of chain, given that you can always shackle a nylon rode onto the end of it. The longer shot is going to weigh more and that's theoretically better, but if the chain is sized right for the boat, there should be enough over engineering weight-wise that missing 50' of chain isn't going to make much of a difference in surviveability.

Paladin hit the nail on the head regarding welding. I've always heard the same. Better to use a forged marrying link than to trust a weld. Obviously, you also avoid the need to galvanize the welded link, in which case you might as well galvanize the whole pile of chain at the same time. (Rust probably isn't much of a consideration for loggers, whose chains also don't have to cope with the continuous fetching up caused by surge, either.) The nylon rode is the real important part. If the nylon cushions the surge on the chain, the chain is a lot less apt to fail. Come to think of it, has anybody ever had a chain rode break on them? I've never heard of it happening... loose shackle pins, stuff like that, yea, but never a busted link.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Bob - yes, I have heard of, and seen, chain which has failed, but not on my boat. High tensile chain, that is. In Hong Kong after typhoons.

Can you still buy proper forged joining links in the USA? I don't meant the pathetic things with two C shaped buts and pins sticking through to hammer over. I mean proper, forged, U shaped chain shackles

[Donn]

pwilling asked:

"So is 8:1 excessive for that situation -- how do you know how much catenary is enough?? "

Donn sez:

If your anchor held, 8:1 wasn't excessive. You may have been able to get away with less by a variety of means: rigging a kellet to steepen the initial angle of the rode (like paladin's idea of hanging a weight somewhere on the rode, but done after the anchor is set, with a weight that slides down the rode on a check line. A simple kellet for all-chain rodes is a ball of chain, 25# for your 35' boat, hanging under a shackle rider;) a drogue set to counter the current or wind; or even a kedged second anchor, set to counter the weaker force.

How much catenary is enough? The primary benefit of catenary is to soften the surges, helping to keep the anchor set, and protecting the ground tackle from stress. If you're riding (relatively) softly on the hook, you have enough.

ACB said:

"The really dumb bit is using BBB chain.

Only Americans do this. (Do we do anything right?) You cannot even buy it in Europe. It is higher tensile, so the good news is that it is stronger. The bad news is....

1. It is too light - much of the point of chain is that it is nice and heavy and forms a shock absorbing catenary. BBB comes up taut quicker, being lighter, and once chain does this it snaps, because the shock load is more than the strength of the chain EVEN IF IT IS BBB."

Donn sez:

I'm not sure what you mean by "mild steel" chain. We have, generally, 3 types of anchor chain available; BBB, proof coil, and 3 different hinds of "high strength," high strength, transport chain, or alloy chain. Sticking with the 5/16 that pwilling uses, proof coil weighs 115# per 100', BBB weighs 120#, high strength, transport and alloy all weigh 120#. Not much difference there.

Strength? BBB and proof coil are low carbon steel, with a tensile strength of 55,000 psi. High strength chain (grade 43) is made from high carbon steel, and heat-treated, and has a tensile strength of 85,000 psi. Transport chain (grade 70) is also high carbon steel and heat-treated, and has a tensile strength of 120,000 psi. Alloy chain (grade 80) is made from special alloy steel, heat-treated and tempered, and has tensile strength of 180,000 psi. Alloy chain is the only one of all of them which does not require periodic annealing to relieve brittleness.

Quoting Earl Hinz, in The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring:

"There is little to be gained through the use of high strength chain in an anchor rode. Chain weight is needed to hold the lead angle of the anchor below 8 degrees and to provide a modest amout of shock-absorbing catenary sag. Using smaller size but higher strength chain only mens that you will need a longer lingth to produce the same weight of chain lead. For the all-chain rode, the loss of catenary is serious, and you will certainly need a longer riding stopper to provide needed shock-absorbing capability."

Cleek said:

"...that missing 50' of chain isn't going to make much of a difference in surviveability."

Donn sez:

It'll mean that you'll have to anchor in 22.7% shallower water to maintain the minimum 4:1 scope.

[Bob Cleek]

Ahem... missed the point again, I'm afraid. Not if you have a nylon rode shackled to it, Don.

[Donn]

Lame, Bobb.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

5/16" chain on an 8 tonner is like watch chain.....

[Mark Raine]

pwilling,
You raised a little tornado. Since you asked for opinion here's another. I had the same dilemma you propose and the short answer is I bought 300' of new 5/16 HT chain.
The reasoning I used might be helpful. The length and weight of chain in part can be answered looking at your data:
Length-- You're in The Puget sound area. If you stay in this region incl inside passage you'll anchor in 12-40 feet rarely 60ft so the most you'll need is 200' ( 5:1 scope which follows the "rules").
Weight:
The weight of chain ( or SWL strength ) can be figured using the windage of your boat and the anticipated wind speed. Larry Pardey's "Capable Cruiser" has a formula for that.
Formulas may be other places as well. For my 38Hans Christian:
Head to wind =135.42 sq ft
Yawing =270.84 sq ft
Dynamic Stress with wind
30knots 400 pounds
60k 1660 pounds
80k 2800 pounds
100k 3800 pounds
I calculated that 5/16 HT with SWL of 3900 pounds I would be 2 times strength for the wind strength for conditions up to 60knots. If wind will get to 80k I would have to find a better place to anchor.
Subjectively, if you're planning on being in shallow well protected anchorages in the San Juans and Gulf Is, you could cut off the bad stuff splice in some 3 strand Nylon and be well covered for your anchoring needs and keep the chain form sitting in salt water in the bottom of your chain locker. It will be lighter too.
Id be against splicing chain together it will be the "weak" link for 5/16 the splicing link SWL is 1950pounds so why bother 1/2" nylon has a SWL of 7500pounds and yes the splice is the weak link but even if reduces by half, you're still stronger over all.

[John R Smith]

It's been a good thread, this. Got me thinking about it, anyway.

And Bob - reading your post again, I see that perhaps you were not being TOO serious. My apologies smile.gif

One thing that seems to be pointed up here, is the regard in which the Americans hold nylon for an anchor rode. Over here, all-chain still seems to be the preferred option - it certainly is for us on Lulu.

The nice thing about chain is that when you haul it up, all dripping and slimy, it just toodles back down into the locker all on its own. How do you stow hundreds of feet of muddy slimy nylon quickly and neatly?

John

[Bill Perkins]

John maybe our typically small tidal ranges make the nylon rode practical for us . Much of the US East coast and Gulf has mean ranges of less than 8 ft. You can anchor in shallow water and still be afloat at low tide , so it doesn't take too much rode to produce a sensible scope ,and the rode gets less slimed out . Braided Nylon can be fed to a locker below , and three strand can be , less conveniently ,secured in a coil on deck .

Conversely , when anchored in shallow water with a short rode it doesn't seem that the relatively small weight of chain is going to produce much of a shock absorbing catenary , and there's often not room in the anchorage to let out excess . Shoal water gunkholers such as myself are well served by Nylon , with just a bit of chain at the end .

[ 12-16-2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

[paladin]

...and.....most American cruisers are either sailing or anchoring as in the previous posting or are into the Caribean where similar anchoring practices prevail. In the Caribbean the chain is needed to protect the nylon from being abraided on the coral and to provide weight to improve the scope on what are usually Danforth anchor for the sandy bottoms.......different anchoring techniques for different areas......I carry the next larger sizes recommended for my boat, a Danforth, CQR and a fisherman stowed forward and
three smaller units stowed aft with rope and chain.....

[Bob Cleek]

John, being an "Anglophile" when it comes to boats, I prefer all chain on my Vertue's CQR for exactly the reasons you mention. I do use a rather heavy chain leader on my Danforth "lunch hook" with nylon, since it is easy to handle and does stay fairly clean if the scope is laid out such that the nylon rode isn't on the bottom, but rather, just the chain is. The chain keeps the stock down so the Danforth can dig in properly, but not being a whole length, is easier to haul upright to break out the Danforth. The CQR, having a plow fluke, comes up and out easier if its stock is pulled upright, while a Danforth will dig into our mud half way to China if there's a steady pull on it, but with flat flukes, is then a bugger to break out. It's easier to break out the Danforth if you don't have to lift the weight of the chain as well! One interesting issue about chain and British designed boats, it seems, is that the British designers presumed that a proper load of chain would be stowed in the chain locker and accounted for it in the balance of the design. Over here, such is not always the case. I've seen more than one boat (expecially fibreglass buckets!) go "nose down" when somebody tried to stow a couple hundred feet of link in her nose!

[John R Smith]

Well, that's interesting, I've got the same sort of set-up myself.

The Bower anchor is a CQR, with all-chain cable. I have a Danforth as a kedge, with 30 metres of nylon (your "lunch hook"), which I must admit we rarely use.

As to the weight of chain up forward - even with about 50 metres of chain, Lulu still sits high at the bows. I try to put as much weight forward as I can (spare fuel, anchors etc) to balance up the weight of crew and visitors in the cockpit

John

[Bob Cleek]

Ah, yes, John, great minds think alike. I have been wondering, though, if it wouldn't be better to build a Danforth type anchor out of plywood (marine, of course) and cover it with epoxy and fibreglass. LOL

[pwilling]

Well I certainly got my tuition's worth out of that thread. Many thanks to everybody who responded, with a number of ideas that I needed to firm up. So my wife says, after chortling her way through the entire post, "So, what ARE you going to do??" I think I'll read the whole thing over again before I decide.

I would be interested to hear from Maybritt what he thinks, based on the admiralty case involving typhoon damage -- what prescription comes out of all that? 3/4" stud link for a 35' boat??

[jwaldin]

Remove all 'old' chain from your boat-buy new chain then give me the old chain.

[Ken Hutchins]

Mind if I lighten this thread a bit? Last year my brother chartered a boat down in the Carribean somewhere. The first time he anchored something went wrong, no doubt due to something he wasn't expecting. redface.gif The chain got off the wildcat and started going out real fast, he soon found out the boat was equiped with 300 feet of 3/8 chain, not some chain spliced to nylon rode as he has on his own boat. Yup 300 feet in a nice pile on the bottom, :eek: as it was going out he was smart enough not to try to stop it and kept praying that the other end was secured and it was.

[Frank E. Price]

My boat came secondhand with 35 fathoms of 5/16" proof coil on the bower, a 45 lb CQR (the real deal). It's 33' and 7.5 tons, and 26 years old. 5/16" seemed kind of light to me, but the chain shows no stretch or other signs of over stressing (it is the original chain). It hasn't seen a hurricane, only a few 50-60 knot blows at anchor. The stern anchor is a 22 lb (or so) Danforth on about 30' of the same size chain and 200' of nylon. This boat and its gear has made an all-chain believer out of me. The original owners live in Friday Harbor and cruised quite a bit in B.C. and Alaska.

My first boat was one of those popular 30' 4.5 ton fin keel, spade rudder things. It did fine sailing on the Columbia River and Washington coast with a 22 lb Danforth, 30' of 5/16" chain, and 300' of 1/2" nylon. But I when I took it to Alaska it drug all over the place, starting in B.C. I bought a 35 lb CQR and 50' of chain and it stayed put, usually.

In SE Alaska the bottom is usually weedy sand/gravel/mud; often rocky. I can usually anchor in 20-25', but frequently must anchor in more, up to 60'. The tidal range averages 14', with an extreme range of 24'. Usually you can find a little nook that is sheltered all around.

If you're coming to Alaska and don't plan on exclusively marina hopping, get heavy ground tackle and a proven anchor design a couple of sizes heavier than the manufacturer's recommendation.

I've done some shipyard welding and welding anchor chain seems flaky as hell to me, other than as a short term emergency fix.

Frank

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Mark Raine:
...1/2" nylon has a SWL of 7500pounds and yes the splice is the weak link but even if reduces by half, you're still stronger over all.Mark, didn't you mean that the BREAKING STRENGTH of 1/2" 3-strand nylon rope is 7,500 pounds? That kind of typo could be dangerous. The materials testing engineer I work with rates nylon's SAFE WORKING LOAD at 10% of breaking strength. Too conservative? Perhaps. Batter safe than sorry.

CHAIN CONNECTING LINKS: My West catalog lists forged mid links "For use with 30-, 40- and 70-grade chains." A forged connecting link "as strong as similiar sized Proof Coil chain when rivets are peened into countersunk holes."

I guess the Colonies aren't as deprived as we might appear.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Why not chop off the fifty feet attach 200' of 5/8 nylon to the end? Am I missing something?

[cbob]

PWilling, and all the experienced anchorers. What an array! Some thoughts aside but related. Chain is heavy stuff, a shot is 90 feet, on ships shots are connected by "patent links", allowing the required, by regulatory bodies, length, (and also size), allows for transport, downgrading, exchanging only deffective shots etc. These patent links are matched to the chain size, fitting the wildcat and of equal or greater strength. The connecting links in the Waste Marine Catalog are along the same principal. Ship's chains are surveyed periodically, there are specifications as to the maximum allowable lenghth of a shot of specific chain, as the chain wears it becomes longer. Particular shots exceeding the safe specification, only, are required to be replaced. That said, don't know where to find allowable elongation on 5/16BBB.
Once, went to have small chain re-galvanized, and it turned out to be of equal price to renew, wholesale basis?
The Lunch hook concept, an anchor setup that weighs, maybe 80 percent, of the normal (non storm) service hook set up means buying, maintaing, storing, an additional setup of marginal holding power, which probably will require re-anchoring with the service anchor, with a tide change, or a wind velocity increrase. If this isn't marketing B.S. what is?
Never have used a CQR on my boats, but apparently, this application with all chain, creates a great feeling of security, weighty, think is the word, and is easily handled with power windlass' I have been using Danforth's and Northill's since before anyone in rhe New World ever heard of the CQR, Never used an engine block or or a dead Volkswagon either. A proper sized, Danforth HT, the boats waterline length of chain and nylon (previously Manilla) have never let me down, unless I screwed up somehow putting it down, on average, resetting one out of ten.
Years ago in Friday Harbor, went out into the deep to watch the Fireworks and put down one shot of metric equivlent of 5/16 with the 18# Danforth, I think the scope must have nothing to one. After the show I got the reason for power windlasses. This chains still in the garage, like new, only used a couple of times later in depths less than 30 ft.
When taking ships out for trials the first thing, we did was to test the emergency brake, lower and raise (or is it now deploy and retreve) the anchors, one at a time,in 100 ft. and then if this was OK, on with the rest. On one trial, the trial supt. an electrician, ordered this test with no bottom, Think of the THREASHER ?? and the bitter end shackle was all that saved the lot. 10 knots back in for fifteen miles dragging that sucker till the hook was on the bottom and heaved in a little at a time until the load capacity of the hydraulic windlass, fortified with heavy gear oil, could raise the remainder. Windlasses are not designed to lift the total weight of chain plus anchor, or so it seemed.
The chain doesn't improve the scope, just lowers the angle of whats coming in to the shank, which has the same effect.
I have allways been able to avoid anchorages for which CQRs are famous for great holding, eel grass etc. but havn't been everywhere yet.
Northills have an eye on the crown, to which the chain can be shackled, then run alongside the shank with a couple of links slack and then fastened to the shank eye eith wrappings of wire or heavy fishing line, so in the evwnt of fouling, the wrappings can eventually be broken, the anchor capsized, and retreved upside down. Recently in a local sailing magazine there was a short feature, where five various size previously fouled CQRs and chain were recovered on a sixth. Must have been one heck of a windlass. cbob

[ion barnes]

Comic relief; Was told very recently of a charter boat that came back prematurly because they had run out of anchors! Noone had told them to wind them back in! They just cut the line and left!!??

[redsail]

Where are they tossing these anchors away? I feel like going for a dive.

[Frank E. Price]

One point I probably didn't make very well, cbob, is that the Danforth can work great in many locations, as it did for me before I went north, but not work worth beans in other places. Best to carry two or three different types of anchors if one is traveling far and wide.

I think the lunch hook concept is valid for people who are in the habit of sailing to an anchorage to take a break and leave again later in the day to head back to the marina. But even those people should carry a set of heavy gear for the unexpected, and my own preference is to always put the bower down first.

I had a Northill that I treasured for several years until I hung it up on a wreck. Put a buoy on it for a few days and before I could figure out how to get it off, a diver on a cruising boat came along and took it.

Frank

P.S. Those chain joining links will likely rust out sooner than the old chain did, being made of smaller pieces of steel.

[ 11-28-2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Frank E. Price ]

[Paul Piercey]

I've broke off two 750 pound anchors in the past two years :eek: The boat is a 70 ton vessel that fishes from the Bering Sea to Southern California. Both anchors were lost trying to stay on a "spot" in too shallow of water in too rough conditions. The hydraulic wave action will win every time. On this boat the chain is followed by cable. It takes quite deep water to get enough belly in the ground tackle to absorb the surge of the seas. The larger the vessel the deeper. If you are going to anchor in less the deep enough water you better have a fair amount of nylon out there to absorb the surge. Steel won't do it.

Paul

[jwaldin]

Well I saw two of the latest anchoring techniques this summer in the Gulf Islands: The 'Iron Maiden' a 70' something steel boat from Alaska dropped her anchor straight down and then dropped probably 300' of chain right on top of the anchor and then the 'party' retired below for the night.
The latest idea came from a plastic boat about as high as it was long in James Bay N. Prevost Is. Just lower the anchor until it touches bottom then go below for lunch. When you come up you'll notice that the tide has carried you out of the bay and then you'll start your diesel and sit there looking at your 'maps' to see where to go to next.

[Frank E. Price]

Must be Frenchmen sailing under false colors.

Or Californians.

Frank

[Lucky Luke]

No frank, these were not Frenchmen: frogs jump overboard, dive down, secure the chain around a rock, and when coming back aboard totally drunk dive again in the cold water and sail away sober!

[Lucky Luke]

....and Californians rely on professional "hookers"...

[Frank E. Price]

Makes perfectly good sense about the frogs, but a large proportion of the Californians I've seen anchor rely on a bitty piece of bow decoration tied to a string, another bit of luck, religion, and plenty of backing down hard. And they only drag often.

Frank