HELP! a "newbie" engine ID and water in oil problem!

[62 woodie]

HI! Im new (to forum and wooden boats!) I just purchased a '62 Higgins with a "Graymarine 135" in it. I am trying to find out what motor the 135 is. Im pretty sure its a 250ci (v8). I was told by the person I got it from ,it might be an AMC or Hudson? I was wondering how to ID it and where to get parts..gaskets , etc.

As for the water problem.. The person I puchased the boat from had taken a head off to free a stuck valve. He supposedly installed a new head gasket. They ran it "off-idle" (bent prop) for aprox 4-5hrs. with no signs of problems. The boat had sat for aprox 20yrs prior. Last week when I took her out for my "maiden voyage" , I couldnt get it on plane, running it between 3500and4000rpm. (another problem?).

When I brought it home I checked the oil - only to find it had water in it and was over-full. Any ideas where to start looking?

Again, thanks for any help!

[ 09-14-2003, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: 62 woodie ]

[Hwyl]

The water in the oil could be from the exhaust system. I'm not familiar with this engine. But on a water cooled exhaust manifold they sometimes dezincify (not my word) and become porous, there should be a zinc plug in the engine somewhere that is sacrificial.

Good luck with the boat. Did you find this webpage http://www.higginsclassicboats.com/

[ 09-14-2003, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[Mr. Know It All]

Bruce or Chris Hamann should be able to help you troubleshoot your Gray Marine engine and get you the right parts. Their contact info is on their website. It always helps to talk to an expert.

http://www.lakelandautomarine.com/

Welcome to the Forum. smile.gif

[Gary E]

Graymarine did use engines from AMC, 250 cu in seems a bit small for a V8 of that vintage, as I recall a 327 cu in was available, you should be able to check this with any parts store as head gaskest will give you the best clue.

Water in oil problem can be from a lot of things related to a cylinder head install or even from a cracked cyl head which may or may not have been detected when the stuck valve was detected.

I would remove the spark plugs and use paper towels to clean and dry the surounding area, twist up a paper towel into a sorta plug and twist it into each spark plug hole, lets call them wicks for now. If they get wet as a result of a pressure test, the water came from the head.

If this this engine is freshwater cooled, start by filling the expansion tank and then us a radiator pressure pump to bring pressure up to 12 to 15 psi... if it holds, your fine, if it leaks then the water is leaking into either the oil, the cylinders, or the raw water side of the heat exchanger.

If the engine is raw water cooled, you must plug the overboard raw water line's that usually flows into the exhaust elbows. Now it gets tricky as some manifolds have a port to bleed water from the manifold into the elbow, if that is pressent you will loose water there, the easiest way to eliminate that possibility is to remove the manifold from the cooling circuit...Now using the same pressure pump atttached to a tank which is attached to the hose that was on the cooling pump's output, pump ip to 12 to 15 psi..
If all this shows the engine is leaking, the best way to fix it is a take apart magniflux the heads to look for craks and rebuild correctly.

I have no idea what you mean by "off idle" .. Maybe you mean no load was on the engine? Sometimes a leak is not detected untill the engine is at operating temp, pumping to 15 or 20 psi will detect this.

You said it did run up to 3500 RPM... thats the best news, at least it does rev up. How is the oil pressure?

Good luck

G

[Ken Liden]

The only 135 Gray that I know is the AMC 232 engine which is a 6 cylinder inline. If you give me the casting numbers off the head or block I can ID the engine.

Water in the oil can be from almost anywhere at that age. There is a reason that a valve was stuck in the first place. Start your search from the outside with the most likily part.Remove the exhaust manifold and look for evidence of water in the exhaust ports on both the manifold and cylinder head. If you find water, rust, or crud (other than carbon)in the ports the exhaust system has failed and you must check the mainfold assembly. Seperate the riser/elbow from the manifold. Seal off the manifold so that you can pour water into the water jackets of the manifold. Watch for water in the manifold exhaust ports. If you find water in the exhaust ports then the manifold is junk. If not then it is good enough to have someone pressure test it. The risers are usually difficult or impossible to test. Give it a good eyeball and look at the gasketed surfaces real hard. The most common failure is the gasket between the manifold and riser. If the exhaust system tests out OK then you must go into the engine. Engine rebuild parts availabilty for the 232 is pretty good as it is a common AMC engine used in a number of vehicles. The Gray parts could be another story.
Don't expect to get off easy. Anytime you get water in the oil it is bad, but water that that gets left standing in the engine long enough to rust and corrode is a death sentence.

[Bob Smalser]

Yup....

...and when a head is pulled on an engine that old with stuck valves, it should be resurfaced before reinstallation, torqued to spec, then retorqued after several hours of operation....

...did your previous owner do all of that? The head should be checked for cracks by the machine shop before resurfacing....make sure they do that when you have it done.

And the next phase of running it with a leaking head gasket is a cracked head or block...so don't run it that way.

[Gary E]

Another area of potential leak on a V8 are the gaskets between the intake manifold and the cyl head, if it leaks there it will drain into the oil.

G

[ 09-14-2003, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[62 woodie]

Thanks for all the quick responses!

This gives me a few things to continue checking out! I didnt realize water could leak into the oil thru the exhaust manifolds. I want to check availability of head/intake gaskets, but will probably take heads off next to check them.

I pulled a compression check when I first got the boat and all 8 were between 140 & 150 lbs.

In response to :
Gary E , it does draw water from the bottom of the boat. As for the off idle..the guys wife basically ran the boat in a no-wake zone and never had it on plane. (he has another wood boat).She put aprox 5 hrs on it since the repair. When I checked the oil at that time it looked OK. It was only after I took it out for about 20mins the leak showed up. I couldnt get it to plane and it started to vibrate around the 3500 mark.

The motor idles down to less than 500rpm and carries 40lbs oil pressure then. it actually carries 80 lbs when first started. It will idle at the 450 mark for minutes and still has smooth response when the throttle is opened.

Ken Liden, the 135 is definately an 8 cylinder (i counted the spark plugs- sorry i couldnt resist).And according to a Graymarine book is a 250 ci- but doesnt tell what brand. I couldnt find a casting # on the block (where to look?),but the heads are dated 11-11-60 and carry the # 3146596. the exaust manifolds dont appear to have a "riser"..just a copper-looking elbow off the back..running down beneath the floor.

Bob Smaiser, the head was resurfaced , checked for cracks and re-torqued after running.

Hwyl , thanks for the info on the Higgins site

MR.Know It All, I will 'mail Hamanns to get their input.

AGAIN thanks for helping out !!!! Im sure I will have more ???s before I get it in the water!(re: caulking / varnish etc.)
THANKS AGAIN!! Steve

[Gary E]

Steve,

Since you checked cyl compression pressure and that is good, I lean more to a possible water leak between the intake manifold and the heads, that is eazy to fix. I would replace those gaskets and re run the engine under load before removing the heads and having them checked. The engine can be run under moderate load while tied to the dock in gear and at moderate engine rpm. Check the oil for clarity as you procede.

The vibration is another problem, check shaft alignment first, then the prop for balance.

I now see the boat is out of the water, have the prop balanced.

Another potential leak is inside an oil cooler, either transmision or engine. Check them.

G

[ 09-14-2003, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Ken Liden]

Yup 3146596 is an AMC number. It was used on the 250 v/8 as far back as 1956. It was also used on the 59-66 250,287,and 327. Thats a new one for me.

re; water into engine via the exhaust manifold. When the exhaust portion of the manifold fills with water it flows backwards into the exhaust ports in the head past the valves and fills the cylinder then leaks past the piston into the crankcase. This usually happens after engine shutdown when there is a high riser in the system.

There are many responces to your quiry and all are valid. Where do you want to start?

[62 woodie]

Thanks for all the suggestions on the water problem. I talked with Chris Hamann today at Lakeland Auot&Marine. He gave me the Felpro gasket #s needed!!!

Ken, I think Im going to remove the intake and both heads soI can get them checked for cracks. (can maybe settle the 250 vs 327 debate).

Is it a "capitol-crime" to consider upgrading the motor to a newer v8?(read small block Chevy) I REALLY want to get this motor running right , but am concerned about long term dependability.
I dont want to open a whole new can of worms... I just dont know if that is acceptable. (the 'ol original vs hotrod question) I see quite a few older boats advertised with 350s, etc. Any thoughts?

Will also keep you posted when I open the motor. Thanks to all! Steve

[Bob Smalser]

Not much you can do to short of dismantling to check the condition of the bearings, but have you done a "leak down" compression test to check the condition of the rings?

Your compression and compression range are OK, but compare each cylinder's compression before and after you squirt some oil in there thru the spark plug hole to really seal the rings. Easy task.

80lbs of oil pressure cold and 40 hot are also OK.

I don't think you can change the rings in this engine w/o a complete dismantle where common-sense woulda replaced the main and rod bearings and seals, too. So if the rings are good, chances are so are the bearings and you have a good motor.

[ 09-16-2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Mr. Know It All]

Modern power is more reliable than those old Grays which makes you safer on the water. Most boats from the 50's and 60's are underpowered anyway. The newer engines are quieter and more fuel efficient too. It's usually more expensive and labor intensive, to replace the engine than to repair the old one. Keeping everything original is great for the boatshows but, if you plan on using the boat, modifications will improve the performance and I would think, the overall value of the boat. Another thing to consider replacing is the fuel tank if it's galvinized. The galvinization flakes off and clogs the fuel system. Stainless steel or plastic is better, but it's another expense.

[62 woodie]

Mr K.I.A.,
Ive been kinda looking for a small block setup. I dont care about showing the boat. ( as I say with my old cars.. theyre no fun setting in the garage!)
The 135 in the boat is a rh rotation. I just missed a 350 IO for hauling the boat away. Not sure if it would be a "start". Still wouldnt have trans, etc. BUT price was right... Would I need to change prop dia/ pitch? How do you know what to use with a particular motor/ trans combo? Can a person change to lh rotation if prop and trans changed also?

As for the tank , the old galvnized tank isnt in the best shape and is out of the boat. I had a friend give me a stainless steal fresh water tank out of an old cruiser. Its within an inch ,both lenght and dia. Hope to make it work.

Still will probably try to get the 135 running. I hope to upgrade to a better boat in a few years. smile.gif