Epoxy - what epoxy ? ?

[Mike Thompson]

I'm building the Shellback. The book keeps refering to epoxy during construction. What 'epoxy' - exactly - would one use and where is it found? Anyone?

Thanks

[Nick C]

Epoxey is at two part system of resin and hardner that when combined start a catalistic action that causes the substance to harden. When it hardens it will bond a lot of different materials together.

West System is a very well known and respected epoxey for marine use. You can also go to places like Tap Plastic and they sell various epoxies. So buy some epoxey and some good measuring devices and a good mask to keep the fumes from shortening your life.

[RodB]

Check out System III, Just go on Yahoo and type it in for a search. Order their "Epoxy Book"... read all of it.... Get the literature from West Epoxy Systems... Gougeon Brothers...read all of it...

These publications will answer most all of your questions. Consider your climate where you live when ordering hardener.... you may need some Fast, and some medium ....

RB

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

All epoxies are made from stock that comes from a few maufacturers.
Your challenge is to find which one you are comfortable with.
There are known names like West Systems, MAS, RAKA, Systems 3 and unknown names that trade on their low price alone.
Until you have climbed the epoxy learning curve you will be at a disadvantage judging one from the other.
My advice is use the high priced stuff (West Sys.)while you are doing your epoxy apprenticship. Once you have learned the drill you can be more adventurous and try anything you want.
Charlie

[paul oman]

We have a site called

Everyone's Guide to Instant Epoxy Expertise
that will get you started It's at www.epoxyproducts.com/25points4u.html (http://www.epoxyproducts.com/25points4u.html)

good luck!

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

[JimConlin]

I use mostly West System epoxy and hardeners and have used close to fifty gallons over the last five years.

Reasons:

The supplier has taken the effort to do the testing lab work. They publish the mechanical properties of their products. They've done the work to test the performance of their products in boat building applications. For example, the pioneering work in potted fasteners.

The Gougeons are boatbuilders and literally wrote the book on the use of epoxy in boatbuilding.

With the exception of System Three, I've seen very little evidence that the other suppliers of epoxy to boatbuilders have any capability for rigorously testing their products or doing much more than re-packaging drums bought from the industrial suppliers and re-printing their technical data.

Compared to the total materials cost of a boat, the cost difference between a known product and an unknown is very cheap peace of mind.

[Norm Bernstein]

I've always used West System epoxy. I have no doubt that the other brands, in addition to being cheaper, are fine products, as well. The reason I've been sticking (no pun intended!) with West System is that I an buy it locally, at the nearest West Marine store. There are unfortunately no nearby retailers that carry the other brands. The extra $10 or $20 per unit, for West System epoxy, is less costly and less of a hassle than having to drive 40-50 miles to get a cheaper brand. Also, if you want to mail-order epoxy, many vendors charge extra for 'hazardous material' shipping.

[willmarsh3]

I built a Shellback dinghy too, using West Epoxy. I've since used it on many overnight trips on the Chesapeake, followed by 2 1/2 months continuous use on a cruise, and outside storage for a couple of years. It's held up fine, only requiring occasional new coat of paint. I like West, with the convenient pumps. Also I mail order it from Jamestown without paying exorbinant shipping. Using the convenient pump measurement I've never had an occurrance of epoxy not curing properly. I highly recommend it.
Will

[Bruce Hooke]

I use West System for the reasons Jim mentioned and because it was pretty much the only game in town when I started using epoxy. I highly recommend their book The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction, which you can order directly from the Gougeon Brothers (http://www.westsystem.com/).

On the other side of the coin, Paul Oman can't say this because it would violate forum rules, but I can tell you that his company sells marine epoxy. You can find out more on their website http://epoxyproducts.com/ . Paul clearly has more than just a professional interest in boatbuilding and he has been a regular and helpful contributor to this forum!

[NormMessinger]

I thought Paul was The Forum's pet epoxy vendor, Bruce. tongue.gif

I can't argue with what has been said so far but just to hear my head rattle, if for no other reason, I gotta add my own bias.

Stick with the several brands of epoxy that have a proven following in wooden (bite your lip Cleek) boats, e.g. WEST, MAS, System Three and perhaps RAKA and Pauls stuff. You'll be safe even if you let price be your guide with the first three. I have no experience with the latter two. Beware of the stuff from our local auto parts store and such. Besides the references mentioned above down load System Three's Epoxy Book. MAS may have one as well.

Get catalogues from Hamilton Marine, Jamestown, West Marine, etc., and compare prices.

If you can find a boat builder with experience to spend a little time with you'll be way ahead.

And don't be a strange here. We each have our own ideosyncratic methods of working but there is experience available to you worth scores of boats and years of work.

Good luck, Grasshopper.

[Keith Wilson]

Epoxy can be used for a lot of things in wooden boatbuilding: as a glue, a coating, a structural material, fairing compound/filler and a way to fasten on sheathing material (fiberglass or other fabrics). It is mixed with other materials depending on the use - light easy-to-sand stuff for use as fairing compound, high-strength fillers for fillets and structural applications, graphite for low-friction coatings, sometimes solvents to make a penetrating coating. The shellback mainly uses it as glue.

I've had very good luck with System 3's T-88 epoxy for glued lapstrake construction. It's only for gluing, a 1:1 mix, quite temperature tolerant, already thick enough that you don’t need any additional fillers, and very easy to use.

The single best short reference I know if is System 3’s “Epoxy Book”, which will tell you most of what you need to know. Here's System 3's web site. (http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp)

One tip, which will save you a lot of time and trouble: Cured epoxy is very hard to clean up when at room temperature, but softens when heated. One can easily remove drips using a cheap electric heat gun (or even a hair dryer set on high) and a scraper. Done with reasonable care, this doesn’t hurt the strength of the glued joint at all; it may even make it stronger.

[ 02-01-2005, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[John A. Campbell]

I have used West System epoxy products for as long as they have been around and have NEVER experienced a problem with them. Also you should know that uncured epoxy can be very easily washed off your hands, tools, etc. with a simple solution of 50% vinegar, 50% water.......works like a champ! Also, when you're applying clamping pressure, don't bear down too hard on the pressure and ALWAYS coat BOTH surfaces to be glued. And apply the glue (assuming you're going to be gluing relatively small surface joints) with those little stiff bristle throw-away "acid brushes" that Jamestown Distributors (800-423-0030) lists in their catalog as item no. BRUACID at $14.50 for a box of 144. For applying epoxy over a somewhat wider surface, get foam brushes from Walmart's crafts department......the ones with wooden handles that extend deep into the foam.....you'll have to throw them away after using but they hold up better during the application process you are involved in at that time. And one more trick.......if you're gluing something to a surface on which clamps cannot be reliably applied, when you apply the epoxy (assuming West is being applied), leave some small "gaps" in the glue surface maybe a 1/2" square or more, depending on the area, and apply cyanoacrylate to these spots ONE SPOT AT A TIME as you move down the piece you're gluing and hit the spots with the accelerator that's available at most hobby stores. These "super-fast" glue "spots" serve very well in lieu of clamps provided you're careful with how you apply them and there is not a lot of strain on the member you're gluing.......I've used this technique for many years and it can save much frustration with a clamp that won't stay in place. You've got the long-term super-tough bond of 95% of the glued surface with West epoxy and the other 5% to hold everything in place with cyano until the West cures.

[cs]

I've used System 3 and some off brand and RAKA. Dollar for dollar I would recomend RAKA. Haven't used West. RAKA is my epoxy of choice.

Chad

http://www.raka.com/

[kc8pql]

For about 10 bucks as I recall, System Three will send you a test kit containing resin, hardener, fillers, a piece of cloth and their Epoxy Book and catalog. There's enough material to get a feel for using epoxy and is a good way to try it out if you've never used it, no matter which brand you decide to use.

[Keith Wilson]

For getting uncured epoxy (and almost anything else nasty) off my hands, I use d-limonene based hand cleaner, the stuff that smells like oranges. Works great. It costs more than vinegar, but smells better.

And a cautionary note; get some disposable gloves and avoid getting epoxy on your hands in the first place. It's not terribly toxic, but after too much exposure, some people develop what's essentially an allergy to the stuff and can't ever get near it again.

[paul oman]

treading carefully here I would like to say that boatbuilding applications don't really push epoxies to their limits, so pretty much all the epoxy brands will work - that's why there are so many of them and every one of them has their supporters. You really cannot go wrong with any of the different brands

We are really just comparing apples to apples here not apples to oranges or apples to donuts. Some are thicker, some have more exotherm, some more brittle, potlife times vary, etc. but all get the job done!

You'll be successful with whatever brand you use - and once you get use to that brands 'traits' you'll probably keep using it.

Kind in mind that most of "us" take the basic products from the big chemical firms and 'modify' them to certain requirements. There are a few of the 'low end' types that simply repackage the 'raw' resins and curing agents -- we all assume this is bad, but heck, who is to say?

Good Luck!

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

[NormMessinger]

Originally posted by Keith Wilson:
For getting uncured epoxy (and almost anything else nasty) off my hands, I use d-limonene based hand cleaner, the stuff that smells like oranges. Works great. It costs more than vinegar, but smells better.

And a cautionary note; get some disposable gloves and avoid getting epoxy on your hands in the first place. It's not terribly toxic, but after too much exposure, some people develop what's essentially an allergy to the stuff and can't ever get near it again.Good on yers, mate. I just thought this needed to be said again.

[LeeG]

you can't have too many gloves,,,double gloving recommended since you won't notice a finger tip with a hole in the end mixing epoxy with sweat. Thereafter removing the glove and spreading the epoxy elsewhere. It's easy to cut a glove on a splinter or shard of hardened epoxy.

Remove the gloves before removing mask/respirator...otherwise you'll put wet epoxy on your hair/skin around your face.

wash hands with vinegar before doing other stuff, be AWARE whether you've got any epoxy on clothes if you're leaving the shop to do other things. You don't want to be in the kitchen making a sandwich and touched a wet spot on your pants,shoe laces only to transmit a little smidge of epoxy to the back of your ears, under eyes, inside nose,,etc. This may sound like common sense but it's not common until you've done it.

[RodB]

Of the major epoxies mentioned above I am sure that if you just choose one and use it until you have a solid "feel" for varying conditions...you can't go wrong.

A few things that I have looked at are cost and ease of use in varying conditions and a solid history of good performance from past builders. Personally, I would rather use a 2: 1 ratio than a 5:1 ...
Second, Although I appreciate the research done by West its hard to justify the additional cost over another product like System III when System III does such a great job, is extremely temp versatile with the three hardeners, and does fine in higher humidity. I never have seen any kind of study that showed West System superior to other systems. Although West has been tested to the Nth degree, I think their prices should come in line with the market...

Smith and Company(makers of CPES), not mentioned above, is the most expensive epoxy out there that I have seen, about 20% more than West...maybe they have come down by now... and does cost equal quality...?

System III just ends up being one of the best bangs for the buck. From my own price checks, I haven'f found MAS or RAKA any less than System III, as a matter of fact, they are more.

An epoxy that doesn't blush will be my next "test"... but even then, I wonder if they don't blush at all or if you still need to take all the routine precautions that you would with regular epoxies that blush.

RB

[paul oman]

The manufacturing cost of ALL of the marine type epoxies mentioned are in the $15 - $30 per gallon range. The bigger companies have economy of scale and are closer to the $15 per gallon cost. The curing agent (usually part B) costs a lot more than the part A, hence the reason some companies shot for a 4:1 or 5:1 mix (more money in their pockets).

Color catalogs, employees, trade shows, packaging, advertising etc. All cost money.

Minor quality differences aside, how much of a mark-up are you willing to pay the company executives? - or 'should their boat be bigger than yours?'

Many brands of epoxy are commonly available because the manufacturers can give extreme discounts to distributors and dealers because the mark ups are so huge. What marine store wouldn't carry a product that they can make a 100% mark-up instead of 15% or 25%?

Adding solvents to epoxies to improve their penetration can be a good thing. Solvents in bulk cost a lot less then epoxy materials so such products should be LESS expensive than the regular (solvent free) epoxies. You figure.

The cost to make marine epoxies vs the price you pay is sort of an industry dirty little secret. Pretty much all the major epoxy vendors are pretty tight lipped when it comes to 'profits'

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

[alteran]

I'd like to thank you Paul for all the info you supply on the forum. You do have a point of view as a vendor and perhaps some of your posts could be seen as a little self serving but you are upfront about who you are and I don't think you come across as simply being here to promote your product but more to promote understanding of epoxies in general.

Hope you stick around and keep on helping. When I run out of the West I have on hand I'll most likely try some of yours. [even though I have a hard time with busy look of your website. smile.gif ]

[DavesFlatsBoat]

For us in Florida ..... its nice to have the helpful folks at www.fgci.com (http://www.fgci.com) - Fiberglass Coatings Inc. Great product.....even better price.

[RodB]

Hey Paul,

I have your sample kit ... a quart of non-blush epoxy...(thanks again)... and haven't used it yet... I want to know about your slow hardener for temps above 85 degrees... here in Texas I use epoxy many times when the temp is above 90 degrees...

Does your non-blushing epoxy ever blush... or under some circumstances does it blush... Could you give me a rundown on this....

I know with System III, I get blush when the temp is dropping at night with humidity increases...etc. I try to get all coats on (finish completely) in the late evening so that I do not have to wash off any blush to coat again.

Your comments on this issue would be appreciated.

RB

[JimConlin]

I would point out that there are maybe a couple of dozen people here who are, in one way or another, in a boat-related business. Only one is unable to find a way to make his contribution here without touting his products or repeatedly naming his business. I would wish for greater restraint.
Are you listening, Scot?

[Tristan]

I've used Fiberglass Coatings (fgci.com) for epoxy, cabosil, fiberglass, woven roving, rollers, two part foams, etc. for years. Then have a big variety of resin products. As for their 1:1 laminating epoxy, thickened with cabosil and used as filler or glue, the only thing that ever failed was the wood that the epoxy was holding together (just try to correct a glued up mistake!). My observation is that you'll save a BUNDLE over the well known epoxy suppliers with fgci. Use a good Bureau of MInes certified charcoal filtered mask. As for getting epoxy off your gloves, brushes, etc, go to the grocery store and buy a gallon of white vinegar. Better still, buy TWO gallons. Use it liberally, then use soap and water. Brushes need to be cleaned with several changes of white vinegar, then washed thoroughly with a soap/water mix, then stood bristles up to dry.

[abe]

Hi Jim Conlin, ready for the March boat show?

Thought I would visit the forum to ask a question and saw your comment Jim. I could not agree more. A bit tired of people touting their products and/or themselves.

Getting back to the question, I have used both West and Mas. Both are fine as long as you follow the directions. Found that for the most part, if I want a fast cure glue requiring fillers use West; a slow non-blushing coating I prefer MAS.

abe

[Carlsboats]

Having built a Shellback plus other glued-together boats, I think you're okay with Systems 3 or West. Me, I like Systems 3, because the 2:1 mix is easy to measure correctly, because you can intemix their fast, medium, and slow hardeners, and because you can work at pretty low temperatures if you need to do that.
Only advice I can offer on the Shellback: If you are splicing together sheets of plywood to get long enough lengths for the side panels, be sure not to get a starved joint when using epoxy. The raw ends of the plywood soak up resin, and if -- you don't get enough on, or if you clamp too tightly and squeeze the epoxy out, the joint may pop open on you when you bend the ply into place, or later, when you slap into a wave. I know.

[Carlsboats]

Having built a Shellback plus other glued-together boats, I think you're okay with Systems 3 or West. Me, I like Systems 3, because the 2:1 mix is easy to measure correctly, because you can intemix their fast, medium, and slow hardeners, and because you can work at pretty low temperatures if you need to do that.
Only advice I can offer on the Shellback: If you are splicing together sheets of plywood to get long enough lengths for the side panels, be sure not to get a starved joint when using epoxy. The raw ends of the plywood soak up resin, and if -- you don't get enough on, or if you clamp too tightly and squeeze the epoxy out, the joint may pop open on you when you bend the ply into place, or later, when you slap into a wave. I know.

[RodB]

Most folks just recommend the epoxy they know...the one or ones that they have used and have experience with. Thats usually the case for many such items from tools to materials.

When a newbie asks what epoxy is then what better source for info than this forum... everyone has their bias's but the uninitiated can get some decent background info based on others past experience...whether price is the main factor or location of the source...or conditions of use... If the newcomer gets positive feedback on a few brands of epoxy, then he can narrow down the decision to which is most accessable and of course price. Overall, it seems folks buy for comfort level ...ie., maximum expectation for success within the parameters of their expected use...

On pricing...I was aware of fcgi.com and their lower price schedule three years ago but because of comfort level decided to go with the epoxy my boat designer recommended... (Sys III) and he had used most brands and had extensive experience with System III and West. If the epoxy from FCGI is even lower in cost and I assume is a quality product, then I will consider their products in the future. Also Progressive Epoxy Polymers Inc... as both of these offer a savings on the major players.

I hope the competiton in the market place continues to work towards allowing the consumer to get more and more for their money just like many other products such as bicycles, computers and tools. In these instances competiton for our dollars has only worked to the benefit of the consumer.

After all, everyone on this forum would switch to a new epoxy if it was proven to be as good if not better product than all the rest and cost was siginificantly less. It is a question of peace of mind...and mostly one using any product wants to feel confident that their money and time is invested wisely...good products and materials that work... again comfort level is the key in addition to ease of use and perhaps latitude in mixing where failure is very unlikely.

Considering this comfort level for using a product, it is understandable that most folks are slow to change products if the one they are using does the job even if newer products are cheaper and make claims to be superior in some respects.

Finally, I would doubt that anyone is just going to take one persons recommendations on this forum without doing some research to find a consensus of some sort before making a decision...and that concensus will probably involve accessablitiy, convenience and price in addition to a very basic comfort level for success in using the product.

Edited to add:

I think it would be of interest if forum members who have used more than one brand of epoxy would comment on some of the reasons that they use one epoxy over another for various uses.

RB

[ 02-02-2005, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Stan C]

I've recently purchased 3 gallons worth of epoxy (2 X 1gal. 635 resin, 2 X 1/2 gal. 556 hardener) from U.S. Composites. The cost was $103 plus $25 shipping. The mix ratio is 2:1 and the slow hardener is supposed to be blush free.

I decided to use a thickener from AeroMarine (www.jgreer.com) which I think was $9 per half gal., and is a mixture of cabosil, microballons, milled fibers, and some other stuff.

It's good to hear people say that all the epoxies out there are ok now that I'm committed, but I just thought I'd ask: does anyone have an opinion about the U.S. Composites product?

SC

[ 06-27-2005, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Gary E]

Originally posted by JimConlin:
I would point out that there are maybe a couple of dozen people here who are, in one way or another, in a boat-related business. Only one is unable to find a way to make his contribution here without touting his products or repeatedly naming his business. I would wish for greater restraint.
Are you listening, Scot?So an expert in the biz shows up to HELP and you complain? Why? do you not have personal talent or expertize in a specific area of interest to the question of the moment?

Give the guy a break, he is here to HELP

You might learn something.

[JimConlin]

There are many experts here, and they generally show proper restraint.

[Puka]

AND, we are definitely not better informed for their "restraint".
For a supplier of materials, Pauls Company would
have to be the most open and informative I have come across.
Thanks Paul for demystifying epoxy resin formulation.
I might add;
Paul has e-mailed me several times with answers
to questions and advice, knowing he could not sell me a thing.

I'm for, having access to all the facts, and who is divulging them.

I only wish I had access to his product.
:(

[ 06-27-2005, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Puka ]

[paladin]

I have built boats with three different epoxies....and sailed them around the world. The three are West, Gerry Schindlers t-88 now sold by system 3, and MAS. I like the last 2 best for different reasons. I would recommend the T-88 with 1-1 mix for your first product. It's easy and it's good. when you have the experience to work with multi viscosity resins try MAS.....

[scepticus]

Since we're starting to get into the debate about promoting your company...

Yes a lot of experts express a lot of opinions... and frequently (especially about epoxy) mention brands. And frankly, they often read like advertisements for the product. Generally, those experts say nothing about whether or not they are affilitated with the company, own stock in it, work for it, or whatever. I'm just left to assumne that they do not.

In Paul's case, I'm very happy to have his comments. He is completely open about his professional interest. He offers what appears to be decent information and never bashes his competition that I can recall.

If Paul were suggesting that his epoxy was the best and NOT mentioning his affiliation with the company, that would be bad.

[Stargazer14]

Ah, here's something new - a lively discussion about epoxy on the forum.
I love this place. tongue.gif

[pipefitter]

I used US Composites and all worked as well as I could tell. Definitely a more fair price. Like Paul O said...all are actually exceeding their strength needs in boatbuilding.Anything else would need fasteners anyways. I built my Simmons 18 with US Composites and had no trouble. Even if it says non blushing I think it wise to treat it as if it did blush.The "thick" resin from USC barely will go thru the pump on a warm day so I figure this is thick enough. When I started to research epoxy, I was impressed with all the free data on progressives site.

[Jim Hillman]

I like West, not only because I can get it locally but also because they have a range of fillers made for specific applications. I like T-88 too because it's just the right consistency for gluing things together.