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cs
10-03-2005, 07:26 AM
I think that I have issues with that. No problem with the wearing of the flag on the uniform, the issue is that our duty uniform is the BDU or Battle Dress Uniform.

For those that don't know what BDU's are, they are a tatical uniform made from an infra-red resistant material that is dyed in green, brown & black. using a molted pattern to help break up the outline. All of our patches and name tapes are of a subdued color.

The issue is that the flag that we are required to wear on the Battle Dress Uniform is a bright red white and blue. What is the purpose of wearing a tatical uniform and than putting a bright red white and blue target on your arm?

Chad

Before anyone ask I found the answer to my question, which I didn't ask above.


Q3. Why are we using a full color flag instead of a subdued flag?
A3. Chapter 1, Title 4, United States Code, provides for the design of the U.S. flag and specifies the colors as red, white, and blue. Colors other than red, white, and blue violate the U.S. Code; therefore, subdued-colored U.S. Flag insignias are not authorized for wear.

[ 10-03-2005, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: cs ]

Memphis Mike
10-03-2005, 07:51 AM
In the movies, I've seen combat soldiers carrying their cigarettes in a band on their helmet.

If they really do that, it seems like it would provide a good target for a sniper. :eek:

John E Hardiman
10-03-2005, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Memphis Mike:
In the movies, I've seen combat soldiers carrying their cigarettes in a band on their helmet.

If they really do that, it seems like it would provide a good target for a sniper. :eek: That's why Luckies came in OD green.

George Roberts
10-03-2005, 09:46 AM
I believe that the flag code does not allow wearing the flag. (The flag code is not law so wearing the flag is not a crime and displaying the flag in the wrong colors is not a crime.)

I usually see a velcro flap covering the flag patch.

htom
10-03-2005, 09:50 AM
Perhaps this is so that you don't get the subdued flags dirty before going overseas?

I've seen the desert flags on uniforms here in Minnesota; I didn't pay any attention to which service the wearer was in, or not enough to remember, anyway.

cs
10-03-2005, 11:21 AM
The only flags the Army is authorizing Soldiers to is the reverse field flag in red, white and blue. Subdued flags and those in other colors are in violation of U.S. code, Morales said. Individuals should comply with Army Regulation 670-1, Wear and Appearance of the Army Uniform and Insignia.Section 4-J of the flag code states that (bold and italics added by me):


(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.Another issue with the wearing of the flag is that the (as with my uniform) it is worn 1/2" below the combat patch on the right shoulder. Section 2-F states that:


No such flag or pennant may be placed above the flag of the United States or to the United States Flag's right.It does not specifily address items such as patches, but it would make sense that the flag be above the combat patch.

The right arm is the soldier's arm and thus that is where he wears his combat patch. The move to wear the flag below the combat patch was to facilitate the wearing of the patch and make it easier for those with existing patches on their uniform to get the flag on.

A side note the flag that we wear is the reverse field flag. That is to say the field of stars is on the right (as looking at the flag) which is backwards according to the flag code, but it is worn like this to give the illusion of the flag waving in the wind as the soldier moves forward.

Section 2-I


When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street.Chad

John of Phoenix
10-03-2005, 11:24 AM
Velcro everything on the new ACU (Army Combat Uniform). Name, rank, unit patch, combat patch, wings, and full-color flag.

http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/uploads/medium/zipper2004-06-14.jpg http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/uploads/medium/ACU2004-06-14.jpg


AR 670-1 Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia

28–18. Wear of full-color U.S. flag cloth replica.
a. General. All soldiers throughout the Force, regardless of deployment status, will wear the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica on utility and organizational uniforms.
b. Description. The colors of the U.S. flag cloth replica are red, white, and blue. The size is approximately 2 inches by 3 inches.
c. How worn.
(1) When approved for wear, the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is sewn 1⁄2 inch below the right shoulder seam of the temperate, hot-weather, enhanced hot-weather, and desert BDU; the BDU field jacket; and the cold-weather uniform. If the SSI–FWTS is worn on the right shoulder of the utility uniform, the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is placed 1⁄8 inch below the right shoulder sleeve insignia. The SSI–FWTS is not authorized for wear on organizational uniforms, unless indicated above. SSI–FWTS is an Army acronym for “shoulder sleeve insignia-former wartime service” or as it’s commonly known, a “combat patch”. It’s interesting that the reg specifies that the flag is below the combat patch. In the picture, he wears it as I would expect it to be, but it's wrong.

No mention of a subdued version, only full-color.

cs
10-03-2005, 11:36 AM
Army Regulation 670-1


28-18. Wear of full-color U.S. flag cloth replica
a. General. All soldiers throughout the Force, regardless of deployment status, will wear the full-color U.S. flag
cloth replica on utility and organizational uniforms.Specificly states full-color

Chad

[ 10-03-2005, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: cs ]

cs
10-03-2005, 12:01 PM
By the way, I don't like the new ACU. Not looking forward to getting them issued. They are starting to show up in the guard, and the guys that wear them like them, but I don't like the look.

Chad

Nicholas Carey
10-03-2005, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by cs:
By the way, I don't like the new ACU. Not looking forward to getting them issued. They are starting to show up in the guard, and the guys that wear them like them, but I don't like the look.I'm with you there: it's got a certain c. 1942 feldgrau quality to it, don't you think?

http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/uploads/medium/zipper2004-06-14.jpg http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/uploads/medium/ACU2004-06-14.jpg

http://www.replicaters.com/ww2%20german%20army%20uni/m40%20tunic.jpg http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/uniforms4/Waffen-SS-camo_small.jpg

htom
10-03-2005, 03:13 PM
Have they figured out how to make quiet Velcro?

huisjen
10-03-2005, 04:18 PM
That collar looks like it will chafe. I was told by a Marine Major that when wearing the Marine Corps Officer's Dress Uniform, one does not look from side to side by turning one's head. One faces in the direction one wants to look. Otherwise, one's neck is rubbed raw.

Dan

John of Phoenix
10-03-2005, 04:33 PM
Not really a problem. Nomex flight suits (tankers too) have had a similar collar for years. It's worn closed when "suited up", open the rest of the time. You don't even notice it.

htom
10-03-2005, 05:11 PM
Dress Blues have a much tighter collar than the ACS. The whole is much tighter, in fact; it's very like a target shooting coat.

Paul Pless
10-03-2005, 05:18 PM
they are a tatical uniform made from an infra-red resistant material that is dyed in green, brown & black Does that mean that the uniform does not give off an infra-red heat 'signature', or does it prevent an infra-red type scope from showing on the fabric? (for instance if that individual was 'painted' with an infra-red laser sight)

[ 10-03-2005, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

cs
10-03-2005, 05:19 PM
The uniform reduces the infra-red signature.

Chad

Ethan
10-03-2005, 08:22 PM
With the ACU, the rest of the Army's learning what pilots have known for years - it's much nicer to go to work in your pajamas! Wash and wear, no ratty patch borders (and yes, the velcro, while not absolutely silent, it very quiet), and no more stinkin' button burns. I think they got it right. Sorry you don't like 'em Chad, but I think you'll appreciate them pretty quickly!

And hey, it could be worse, John Teetsel's old enough he had to wear the Gumby fatigues..... :D

bamamick
10-03-2005, 10:27 PM
Those new uniforms look disturbingly like something from a 1960's Star Trek show. And did they change the regs? Haven't I seen the flag in green and black before?

Mickey Lake

Bob Smalser
10-03-2005, 10:31 PM
What is the purpose of wearing a tatical uniform and than putting a bright red white and blue target on your arm?
Work hard enuf on your marksmanship, and it don't matter none.

Bob Smalser
10-03-2005, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Ethan:

And hey, it could be worse, John Teetsel's old enough he had to wear the Gumby fatigues..... :D http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2999461/113895020.jpg

Worked for me, sonny. ;)

It's always been whut's inside them that counts.

[ 10-03-2005, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

cs
10-04-2005, 06:07 AM
When I first went on active duty I was issued green fatigues. Didn't get my first set of BDU's till I reached my first duty assignment. At that time the Air Force was still wearing fatigues and only SP's had BDU's, and that was on a base by base situation.

Chad

edited to add:

Bob I guess my qualifing is slipping a little. I shot this weekend only 36 out of 40. Enough for sharpshooter but not expert. Last year was 38 of 40.

[ 10-04-2005, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: cs ]