View Full Version : Jesse lives to help people
stan v
07-10-2003, 05:02 AM
THE WAR THAT JESSE BUILT
By KENNETH R. TIMMERMAN
July 10, 2003 -- AS the president and Pentagon ponder whether to send U.S. troops to Liberia, many Americans will be surprised to learn that the crisis there was in part the creation of a U.S. political leader who claims to champion Africans' right to self-governance: Jesse Jackson.
As President Clinton's special envoy for Democracy and Human rights in Africa, starting in October 1997, Jackson became the administration's point man for Africa.
It was Jackson who legitimized both Liberian strongman Charles Taylor and his protégé, the machete-wielding militia leader in neighboring Sierra Leone, Cpl. Foday Sankoh. The two hacked to death several hundred thousand citizens of their respective countries.
Jackson's involvement in the diamond wars of Liberia and Sierra Leone arguably caused tens of thousands of African children to be murdered, because his political support for ruthless killers masquerading as political leaders encouraged them to continue their mayhem.
The tragic story of Liberia's long spiraling descent into the inferno requires many more pages than a newspaper column can permit. I devote an entire chapter to it in "Shakedown," my unauthorized Jackson biography. But here are some lowlights:
* In May 1999, Jackson "kidnapped" President Laurent Kabbah of Sierra Leone, according to Kabbah advisers I interviewed, and flew him to neighboring Lome, Togo, where Jackson forced him to sign a cease-fire with rebel leader Foday Sankoy.
* That July, under the terms of a powersharing agreement which Jackson helped negotiate and which Kabbah vigorously resisted, Sankoh was released from house arrest, made a vice president in a new national unity government and put in charge of Sierra Leone's diamond mines.
* Sankoh then began smuggling out thousands of diamonds, many of which he sent to Charles Taylor in Liberia in exchange for weapons. Jackson repeatedly raised the issue of the illicit diamond trade and the clandestine arms supplies with Taylor, who simply denied the charges. Jackson never pressed him further.
* Jackson stayed in contact with Sankoh, phoning him repeatedly with words of encouragement. Braced by this support and funded by the diamond trade, Sankoh built up his Revolutionary United Front (RUF) forces, ignoring Jackson's pleas to disarm and give peace a chance. New fighting broke out in January 2000 in the hinterland. Jackson's cease-fire lasted less than six months.
* By May 2000, the fighting in Sierra Leone took on crisis proportions, when Sankoh's fighters murdered U.N. peacekeepers and took 500 of them hostage. Meanwhile, Liberia, which has no diamonds, reported that it had exported $300 million worth of diamonds the previous year.
* Jackson made one final attempt to halt the bloodshed in mid-May 2000, but was warned by the U.S. embassy in Freetown not to set foot in Sierra Leone because of widespread popular anger over his role in rehabilitating Sankoh, a known mass murderer. One local journalist wrote bitterly that the U.S. civil rights leader was better known in Africa as a "killer's rights" leader.
* Jackson's final contributions to the "peace process" were vain attempts to cajol Taylor to "negotiate" an end to the hostage crisis, since Taylor was the godfather of the RUF and Sankoh's arms and diamond broker.
* Arriving in Monrovia, Liberia, at the peak of the crisis, Jackson declared, "President Taylor has been doing a commendable job negotiating for the release of the hostages. All the hostages should be freed, and freed now. There is no basis for delay, there is no basis for negotiations."
Jackson's comments would have been absurd were it not for the quantities of innocent blood that had been shed, thanks to his self-serving bumbling.
At this point, State Department spokesman Philip Reeker declared on June 5, 2000, that the United States was "not part of that [Jackson-brokered] agreement." Jackson was soon summarily fired as Clinton's special envoy.
The Clinton State Department is not innocent in this affair. Declassified dispatches and briefing documents show that top State officials primed Jackson with information, talking points and background papers throughout his three years as Clinton's envoy.
With tragic results.
As Jackson himself commented to me in an interview for "Shakedown," "When it worked, you're a genius. When it blew up, you're an idiot." Sierra Leone and Liberia both blew up in a big way.
Now Charles Taylor, indicted for war crimes by the U.N.-backed Special Court for Sierra Leone, is seeking asylum in neighboring Nigeria. He should not be allowed to escape prosecution.
Among the first questions prosecutors should ask Taylor is whom he paid off using Foday Sankoh's diamonds. U.S. intelligence officers reported these payoffs at the very moment that Jackson was negotiating a favorable role for Taylor and for Sankoh in Lome, former CIA officers and other sources have told me over the past two years. As a result of the payoffs, Taylor continued to enjoy support among the Congressional Black Caucus and with the Clinton State Department.
But who received the diamonds, how were they brokered onto the international marketplace in Europe and where the cash proceeds went remains a mystery. Taylor knows many of the answers. Watch Jesse Jackson try to save him now.
Kenneth R. Timmerman is the author of "Shakedown: Exposing the Real Jesse Jackson," and a senior writer for Insight magazine.
NEW YORK POST
brad9798
07-10-2003, 08:57 AM
Jesse is a bottom-feader ... always has been and (from what I can tell) always will be.
It's a shame that his actions always have improper motivation, because he could do some good with his name recognition.
Oh well, folks that look up to him are foolish and grasping for straws, or just looking to stir it up.
He's a low-life.
Brad
km gresham
07-10-2003, 09:06 AM
He saw his chance when MLK was killed and he's been running with it ever since. Sleazy opportunist.
Some people blame Democrats for the problems in Africa, some blame Republicans, some blame the French, others the colonial English, Dutch, and so on, but I think the Africans have done a comendable job of messing up the continent irregardless of all the outside help
Gresham CA
07-10-2003, 09:39 AM
JimD
THANK YOU !!!!!!!
wow,,these cerebral colonics are really clearing things up.
hey stan,,one might make a case that the US helped to foster the foundation for islamic fundamentalism by replacing Mossadegh with Reza Pehlavi and supporting him for a couple decades of secret police and "western values" that was contrary to the roots of Iran. When he finally gets booted out the anti-US kickback is so strong and the funding both sides of the Iran/Iraq war while supporting the Iranian populations (not the upperclass) oppressor kind of makes for a good argument that the US kickstarted the terrorism we are at war with.
Of course OBL was against the royal families and Saddam after the US,,and of course Al Queda garnered support by humanitarian aid to Afghanistan and the Pakistani gov't.
So what part of the US gov't was Jesse Jackson implementing policy?
Hey Stan,,go review Clintons tour of Africa and compare it to Bush.
Abstinance programs for AIDS sufferers,,,oh wow, that should go over great with the Bill Bennett crowd,,,not sure how it helps the 40 old african grandmother who's taking care of her 3yr old HIV positive grandchild where the generation in between is dead and dying. "Just say no child",,,or for the 19yr old migrant laborer with three kids working far from home,,,"try abstinance!!"
yep, Jesse did it. It's a part of the secret conspiracy of oversexed democrats doing their tax and spend socialism.
Originally posted by km gresham:
He saw his chance when MLK was killed and he's been running with it ever since. Sleazy opportunist.anything else for the choir?
km gresham
07-10-2003, 09:55 AM
I take it you disagree with that statement, Lee. What would you call him?
Originally posted by km gresham:
I take it you disagree with that statement, Lee. What would you call him?Good question Karen, I could call him Jesse, I could call him JJ, I could call him preacher, I could call him jungle bunny, but for the most part I don't need to call him anything. The name doesn't help me to understand Liberia and US policy in Africa.
km gresham
07-10-2003, 10:02 AM
I don't believe he's ordained.
as long as we're on the topic of Africa, and if you wish to focus on identifiers of individuals that's a fun topic too.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37081-2003Jul10.html
"Bush's African visit underlines a rethink on the strategic importance of the continent because of growing U.S. reliance on its oil and intelligence that al Qaeda could use vulnerable states to hide."
"But the mostly desert nation, a staunch U.S. ally, shares Africa's AIDS agony. An estimated 38.8 percent of its people are infected with the deadly virus that causes the disease.
Bush has made HIV/AIDS a major focus of his five-nation swing through the continent with a proposed five-year, $15 billion aid plan for Africa and the Caribbean.
His wife Laura was to visit a Botswana hospital for mothers and children infected with HIV.
Thanks mainly to its diamonds, Botswana boasts among the highest average per capita incomes in Africa -- $3,100 per year. It has also given Washington diplomatic support other southern African states -- notably South Africa -- have at times denied.
It again showed its loyalty earlier this week by agreeing not to hand any U.S. citizens to the new International Criminal Court in The Hague."
Originally posted by JimD:
Some people blame Democrats for the problems in Africa, some blame Republicans, some blame the French, others the colonial English, Dutch, and so on, but I think the Africans have done a comendable job of messing up the continent irregardless of all the outside helpNo doubt the same can be said of the Middle East,,,except at some point if we become a military force, consumer of natural resources in the region, or wish to implement national security issues in other nations borders then we become part of the mix for good and bad.
Originally posted by km gresham:
I don't believe he's ordained.I gather you wouldn't want him to speak in your church
Where's George? Oh right,,womens work,,emissarys like Jesse?
First lady Laura Bush, sitting between two 9 year olds with HIV, said Thursday she hoped state-of-the-art pediatric AIDS clinics run by an American medical school showcased her country's compassion for AIDS-ravaged Africa.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37040-2003Jul10.html
km gresham
07-10-2003, 10:18 AM
No - not that Jesse.
Rev. Jesse Peterson, yes smile.gif
[ 07-10-2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: km gresham ]
speaking of AIDS, could you imagine how California would have been different if there was AIDS during the Gold Rush? All those men,,far from home,,somewhere the preacher is saying "just say no". With towns exploding in population and wealth without social anchors. Beer for $.50, eggs a dollar, and a prostitute for $2.
"Thanks mainly to its diamonds, Botswana boasts among the highest average per capita incomes in Africa -- $3,100 per year. It has also given Washington diplomatic support other southern African states -- notably South Africa -- have at times denied."
yep,,I'd say they should learn to abstain. I wonder what it's like in a diamond mine camp. If we can say no , then they should too.
Originally posted by km gresham:
No - not that Jesse.
Rev. Jesse Peterson, yes smile.gif I don't know Jesse Peterson, who is he?
brad9798
07-10-2003, 10:26 AM
LeeG, as I am sure you are aware, the post is a jab at Jess-e-uh-jack-uh-son, not at African foreign policy ...
Let's face it, much like Al Sharpton, Jesse feeds on the downtrodden, makes nearly everything a 'race' issue (whether it is or is not), all in the name of 'helping' the black community.
Beleive me, half of the folks he pretends to 'help' wish he'd shut up and quit making things more difficult and divisive.
Brad
Jim H
07-10-2003, 10:26 AM
You just don't get it Stan do you? What will it take to get it through to you?? Nothing happened before the year 2000!
km gresham
07-10-2003, 10:32 AM
Do a google search, Lee. Hint: he's not shakin down businesses, or chasing high profile racial discord opportunities, or rabble rousing. And he's an ordained minister.
Originally posted by brad9798:
LeeG, as I am sure you are aware, the post is a jab at Jess-e-uh-jack-uh-son, not at African foreign policy ...
Let's face it, much like Al Sharpton, Jesse feeds on the downtrodden, makes nearly everything a 'race' issue (whether it is or is not), all in the name of 'helping' the black community.
Beleive me, half of the folks he pretends to 'help' wish he'd shut up and quit making things more difficult and divisive.
BradBrad, the post could be a message in a bottle from Stan, the post could be a jab at JJ, the post could be an opportunity to talk about African foreign policy, the post could be an opportunity to point out that there are lots of people being used as nonofficial diplomatic tools.
But if taking a jab at jesse jackson is the theme I'd say let's call him a sleazy headlines grabbing jungle bunny sycophant of the left wing middle class. God this is fun. Anyone else want to play?
Garrett Lowell
07-10-2003, 10:35 AM
Where are the local leaders during this long-running aids crisis?
Originally posted by km gresham:
Do a google search, Lee. Hint: he's not shakin down businesses, or chasing high profile racial discord opportunities, or rabble rousing. And he's an ordained minister.will do Karen, thanks for the direction, given that the post puts JJ as being partially responsible for Liberias problems it would be worthwhile to research people who are not responsible for Liberias problems like Jesse Jackson and Clinton.
Originally posted by Garrett Lowell:
Where are the local leaders during this long-running aids crisis?The AIDS epidemic thrives where there is a decay in social structure,lack of education,lack of basic needs, and the ability to talk about sexual issues.
It took the most powerful nation on the earth to move beyond the fact that AIDS was trasmitted primarily through high risk sex in the gay world and allocate resources to it's identification and eradication.
Read, "The Band Played On".
There are no "local leaders" when populations are displaced by famine, war or rapid industrialization which brings movements of people (mostly men) out of villages and to the centers of commerce. So a "local leader" isn't there when a 26yr old father of four who's working a weeks travel from his own village has sex with a prostitute and brings HIV home. A "local leader" isn't there when rape is used as a weapon to shame the vanquished. A "local leader" isn't there when folklore says sex with a virgin will cure aids. Local leaders are responsible for maintaining tradition, stability, and continuity. Just like in the US. But if the tradition is shunning frank discussion in sexual matters then local leaders can be a road block to identifying new problems.
You know how Clinton is the reason why we have terrorism? ok,,so it's just possible than any leader will need "reasons and studies" before they allocate money away from big billion dollar gov't projects for a bunch of whiney buggering perverts. or 4yr old children with AIDS.
When the first time HIV was being identified the scientist working on it was struggling to get a $3,000 centrifuge with a gov't grant. The US gov't had it's sights on Star Wars.
Originally posted by Jim Hillman:
You just don't get it Stan do you? What will it take to get it through to you?? Nothing happened before the year 2000!Dang Jim, you're going too far back, nothing happened before 6weeks ago.
Ken Hall
07-10-2003, 12:29 PM
Anybody who posts three times in a row to his own thread needs a new hobby.
km gresham
07-10-2003, 12:31 PM
It's ok, Ken, he just started another thread and he beat me to the first comment! :D
Originally posted by Ken Hall:
Anybody who posts three times in a row to his own thread needs a new hobby.Ken, no doubt,,now that Stan, Garrett, JT and Karen are my hobby I'm totally lost. So which part do you like, kicking around celebrities or conversing about the issues that bring out the celebrities? Me and the prez. are doing fine, our kids aren't going to war and we like gas. "bring em on"
Gresham CA
07-10-2003, 12:51 PM
Lee,
Someone needs to change the lock on your medicine cabinet. You look like you're talking to yourself on the other threads. :D
I am
I always answer
HAHAHHHHAHHHAAAAAAA hack,,,I'll be back.
Garrett Lowell
07-10-2003, 01:09 PM
I felt that my question was legitimate in light of the fact that I'm uninformed on this subject, and was not directed at anyone specifically.
I wasn't expecting an "answer" from the knee-jerkers, but I'm not surprised at it.
It's not too late, Lee, to let go of your bitterness, and get some real help.
Originally posted by Garrett Lowell:
I felt that my question was legitimate in light of the fact that I'm uninformed on this subject, and was not directed at anyone specifically.
I wasn't expecting an "answer" from the knee-jerkers, but I'm not surprised at it.
It's not too late, Lee, to let go of your bitterness, and get some real help.Garrett, your question is extremely relevant and legitimate. And I'm not at all informed like our politicians are. When a society goes through changes that threaten stability and safety it's up to those elders you mentioned to keep things in line. Whether it's an elder who's younger than the old folks but in politics or it's an actual wise old man/woman.
I'm really not bitter, I'm pissed off that folks spend their time finding someone to blame. I've been with people dying of AIDS, there was no solution in blaming then and there is no solution blaming now, but if "our leaders" have dificulty discussing subjects and it's up to the professionals/scientists to parse meaning out of data then it's up to our leaders to listen. Twenty years ago they couldn't listen until there were enough scientists and administrators in the field screaming bloody murder,,"people are dying".
Ok,,so my beef is the juvenile pleasure Stan and others get blaming celebrities and politicians.
Check out that book
Lee, if you're so concerned about the HIV/AIDS issue, perhaps you should learn more about what the current administration is trying to do about it, instead of constantly yammering about "abstinance" or "abstainance" (both of which are correctly spelled abstinence), and whining about the history of the issue.
The President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030129-1.html)
President Bush's International Mother and Child HIV Prevention Initiative (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020619-1.html)
Read, "The Band Played On". I've read the Shilts book, which, BTW is titled And the Band Played On..
[ 07-10-2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]
Donn, thank you for the corrections, like I said I used to be a good speller but somthing is slipping. It's absolutely effing great the US is contributing to the control of AIDS. Maybe you have a problem with my criticism that the conditions on the aid include X amount of propoganda ? tough nuts, maybe the critcism is valid. Like the DARE program if it doesn't do squat then why pay for it? "uhhh, duh know boss, I just do what they say".
Ok, in this case we're flush with running water, electricity, evangelical fervor and SUVs. And they've got people with limbs hacked off, genocide, tribal warfare,,and we're saying "just say no you randy native".
do you get my drift? It's kind of like trying to sell a car in Mexico called a Nova. "I don't know Joe,,they giggle when they walk by the show room". Except in this case it's an epidemic that kills people,,just like stupidity kills people or ignorance kills people.
Donn,,,Randy sure was a whiner,,all that righteous indignation and sense of impending doom.
Maybe you have a problem with my criticism that the conditions on the aid include X amount of propoganda ? tough nuts, maybe the critcism is valid. And, maybe it's not. How about posting these "conditions" you speak of?
Ok, in this case we're flush with running water, electricity, evangelical fervor and SUVs. And they've got people with limbs hacked off, genocide, tribal warfare,,and we're saying "just say no you randy native". There you go with the abstinence thing again. Where do you get this crap?
do you get my drift? It's kind of like trying to sell a car in Mexico called a Nova. "I don't know Joe,,they giggle when they walk by the show room". Except in this case it's an epidemic that kills people,,just like stupidity kills people or ignorance kills people. Yes, I get your drift. You don't give a hoot about the fact that something is being done. You just want to complain that it's too late, or imperfect.
If stupidity and ignorance were as lethal as you say, you wouldn't be wasting this forum's time with your free-form, run-on sentence nonsense.
Originally posted by Donn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Maybe you have a problem with my criticism that the conditions on the aid include X amount of propoganda ? tough nuts, maybe the critcism is valid. And, maybe it's not. How about posting these "conditions" you speak of?
will do Donn, I'll get back to you.
Ok, in this case we're flush with running water, electricity, evangelical fervor and SUVs. And they've got people with limbs hacked off, genocide, tribal warfare,,and we're saying "just say no you randy native". There you go with the abstinence thing again. Where do you get this crap?
I'm full of it Donn, given that the authorization for aid was dependant upon an inclusion of abstinenxe education the above paragraph was to highlight the ignorance that presumes the ignorant native needs our propoganda.
do you get my drift? It's kind of like trying to sell a car in Mexico called a Nova. "I don't know Joe,,they giggle when they walk by the show room". Except in this case it's an epidemic that kills people,,just like stupidity kills people or ignorance kills people. Yes, I get your drift. You don't give a hoot about the fact that something is being done. You just want to complain that it's too late, or imperfect.
If stupidity and ignorance were as lethal as you say, you wouldn't be wasting this forum's time with your free-form, run-on sentence nonsense.</font>[/QUOTE]Donn, I included this crap in the context of a few peoples desire to bad mouth people that are insignificant the battles in progress.
I am not in a position of power,,so my free-form run on nonsense is of no consequence. Could you imagine if I was your boss and doling this crap out?
Donn, I included this crap in the context of a few peoples desire to bad mouth people that are insignificant the battles in progress.
I am not in a position of power,,so my free-form run on nonsense is of no consequence. Could you imagine if I was your boss and doling this crap out? I can't imagine you ever being a boss.
km gresham
07-10-2003, 06:25 PM
:D :D
stan v
07-10-2003, 06:43 PM
I'm not sure AIDS is the biggest problem in Africa. Lack of leadership, lack of direction, lack of respect between tribes/people may be a bigger problem. I doubt AIDS has killed as many Africans, as Africans have murdered. Someday we may be able to treat AIDS. We'll never be able to aid a people that exploit their own to the extent Africans do. From slave trading two hundred years ago, to butchering women/children today, a nightmare. I suspect the Rev Jackson is simply the latest to grab what he could.
Originally posted by LeeG:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
Some people blame Democrats for the problems in Africa, some blame Republicans, some blame the French, others the colonial English, Dutch, and so on, but I think the Africans have done a comendable job of messing up the continent irregardless of all the outside helpNo doubt the same can be said of the Middle East,,,except at some point if we become a military force, consumer of natural resources in the region, or wish to implement national security issues in other nations borders then we become part of the mix for good and bad.</font>[/QUOTE]Hi Lee. The US has been a consumer of natural resources (I don't have a list handy, but everything from titanium to chocolate, I think) in Africa for decades, and also involved in proxy Cold War battles with the former USSR for decades in Africa so I'd suggest Washington has long been part of the mix, good or bad.
Originally posted by stan v:
I'm not sure AIDS is the biggest problem in Africa. Lack of leadership, lack of direction, lack of respect between tribes/people may be a bigger problem. I doubt AIDS has killed as many Africans, as Africans have murdered. Someday we may be able to treat AIDS. We'll never be able to aid a people that exploit their own to the extent Africans do. From slave trading two hundred years ago, to butchering women/children today, a nightmare. I suspect the Rev Jackson is simply the latest to grab what he could.Stan, I don't know about the Rev. Jackson, but I agree with you on the rest. I admit I haven't followed African history very closely but I don't buy the claim that the West has put them up to it, twisted them around so to speak and is responsible for Africa's problems.
N. Scheuer
07-11-2003, 06:53 AM
HEY! Jesse is from CHICAGO! Ya'got sumptin' against CHICAGO? Ya'proby don't like da Bears, neider, do'ya? Tell-ya what! Why doncha come out here to Illinoy and say dat! Me'n'my buddies'll punch yer lights out!
(not)
Originally posted by N. Scheuer:
HEY! Jesse is from CHICAGO! Ya'got sumptin' against CHICAGO? Ya'proby don't like da Bears, neider, do'ya? Tell-ya what! Why doncha come out here to Illinoy and say dat! Me'n'my buddies'll punch yer lights out!
(not):D Hey, N Scheuer, I like bears, really! Black bears, polar bears, grizzly bears, all kinds of bears. Honest :D
Ken Hall
07-11-2003, 09:03 AM
Daaa Bearssss.
Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
07-11-2003, 09:17 AM
Hey I like LeeG, He makes me laugh the way he talks to Stan, Karen, HiC and their ilk. I enjoy when he talks to himself he makes more sense than the voices in my own head :D
Daaaaaaaaaa Bulls
Are there any bears in Africa? If there are I like them African bears, too.
Originally posted by Donn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Donn, I included this crap in the context of a few peoples desire to bad mouth people that are insignificant the battles in progress.
I am not in a position of power,,so my free-form run on nonsense is of no consequence. Could you imagine if I was your boss and doling this crap out? I can't imagine you ever being a boss.</font>[/QUOTE]"you've got NO imagination"-Pat Benatar?
I'm so flawed I'm human.
Ken Hall
07-11-2003, 10:19 AM
Why abstinence? Because it costs nothing and it works if you use it. (Edit to add): Seems just the ticket for places with "challenged" infrastructure and low incomes. "Randy native" is entirely your own imposition, Lee.
There are claims that promoting abstinence & monogamy have helped stem the tide in Uganda. I'll have a look and see whether there's evidence behind the assertion.
(second edit) Here's something, anyway: It's from an AP report.
Uganda has managed to put the brakes on a rising HIV infection rate that had devastated the country in the 1980s and 1990s. But the disease is still taking a heavy toll, with about 1 million Ugandans infected out of a total population of 24 million.
A massive public education campaign helped drop the infection rate to about 5 percent. Condom use is widespread, the average age of first sexual contact has been raised and the average number of sexual partners has been reduced.
The government's latest awareness campaign promotes the "A,B,C,D" of HIV — "abstain," change "behavior," use "condoms," or "die."
"We made it our highest priority to convince our people to return to their traditional values of chastity and faithfulness or, failing that, to use condoms," Museveni told drug company executives in Washington last month. "The alternative was decimation."
Prevention is affordable but drugs to treat the infected are not. They cost about $26 a month, while Uganda spends about $3.50 on health care per citizen annually.
[ 07-11-2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hall ]
Originally posted by Donn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Maybe you have a problem with my criticism that the conditions on the aid include X amount of propoganda ? tough nuts, maybe the critcism is valid. And, maybe it's not. How about posting these "conditions" you speak of?
Ok, in this case we're flush with running water, electricity, evangelical fervor and SUVs. And they've got people with limbs hacked off, genocide, tribal warfare,,and we're saying "just say no you randy native". There you go with the abstinence thing again. Where do you get this crap?
If stupidity and ignorance were as lethal as you say, you wouldn't be wasting this forum's time with your free-form, run-on sentence nonsense.</font>[/QUOTE]Donn,, you do like to make a topic personal.
Have you read The Coming Plague ?,,it's a good book,,makes one consider politics as a factor in developing the ecosystem for a microbe. That's why I mentioned Shilts book.
1. http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/aids/release053003.html
Abstinence education when integrated into programs on comprehensive sexual education and condom dissemination has successfully prevented the disease from spreading. Uganda's ABC program (A, "abstinence before marriage”, B, "be faithful", C “use condoms”) has considerably reduced the rate of new infections.
"We can’t afford to isolate one element of an integrated prevention strategy. It’s a fragmented approach and most importantly it will cost lives," said Burkhalter. "The Global Fund’s proven comprehensive, integrated approach can only work if European and other G-8 donors match the U.S. pledge. Without a G-8 response the Global Fund could face bankruptcy
The following is opinon,,but it's from folks that are closer to the problem than you or I.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A4784-2001Jun14¬Found=true
damn,,here it is:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29742-2003Jul8.html
Condom use is heavily promoted, putting the Ugandans at odds with the Bush administration, which pushes abstinence and has directed about one-third of new AIDS prevention money for Africa to groups that advocate "abstinence-only before marriage" messages.
"I won't mind telling Mr. Bush when he visits that young children need to know about condoms here," said Michael Bernard Etukoit, the manager of TASO. "It's too idealistic to say abstain when I serve 50,000 people for AIDS alone in my clinic."
Donn,,it's not "too idealistic",,,it's a political concession to US voters that I suspect have no problem with using Viagra but would prefer to project sexual attitudes that may not apply in war zones,,this is triage, emergency treatment on an epidemic, there isn't the time to delude oneself that we will influence sexual behaviour where rape is a military tool..,,,, The point is that the "Just Say NO" mentality did't work when Nancy Reagan introduced it and won't work in Africa.
To answer your question,,the "condition" is that 1/3 of funds be allocated to abstinence programs.
This is an emergency,,if you had $100 million would you spend $30 million on abstinence educators or $30 million in rubbers? Imagine going into a firefight and had 12 soldiers,,would you like three linguists or an extra 1000 rounds of ammo?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ken Hall:
[QB]Why abstinence? Because it costs nothing and it works if you use it. (Edit to add): Seems just the ticket for places with "challenged" infrastructure and low incomes. "Randy native" is entirely your own imposition, Lee.
There are claims that promoting abstinence & monogamy have helped stem the tide in Uganda. I'll have a look and see whether there's evidence behind the assertion.
(second edit) Here's something, anyway: It's from an AP report.
Ken, that phrase is truly mine. It was meant to satirize a position where a lack of humility allows for self-defeating policies. I agree completely that abstinence is obvious to the prevention of a sexually transmitted disease. I'm not sure that will work for 24 yr old men seperated from family and village. I wonder whether if US service men have abstained more in the last two decades or use comdoms more.
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