Monel instead of bronze for my keelbolts???

[Art Read]

Been back home in P-town on "vacation" for awhile now, and just finished another visit with a local boatbuilder whom I respect an awful lot. I wanted to to show off my progress with the Dark Harbor since last year, and solicit any advice he could offer for the next steps. (I always make it a point to include his boatshop on my itinerary every time I get out here...) Got lots of good new ideas and suggestions, (and a few odd bits of bronze "boat jewelry") but one in particular kinda surprised me. He was not at all "impressed" with my plan to use bronze keel bolts for the lead ballast keel I'm getting ready to hang. He made some pretty strong arguements regarding it's relative strength and the tendency of cut threads in it to strip under those loads. He said if he was doing the job, he'd spring for the extra cost of monel. I'd never even considered it before because I seem to remember always reading bronze bolts and lead ballast as the "typical" arrangement. But if monel is really that much better a choice, I'm not worried about spending a few extra bucks now! My questions are: IS monel in fact the best way to go? Any potentional conflict with the rest of my bronze fastenings/hardware? Just how much more expensive is it? And is it something I can readily find and have machined in the Seattle area?

I've got a little while to mull this over before we get back to Seattle, but I'll appreciate any thoughts here in the meanwhile... Thanks!

(PS... Saw "WHEN AND IF" sailing into the harbor here in a nice, stiff easterly the other day while I was out reliving my "glory days" on a sunset sail aboard "HINDU"... Don't get much better than that...)

[Gary E]

Art,
Listin to the man when he speaks of Monel, you can not find a better more suitable material worth the extra cost considering where those bolts will be. I used to make parts for the navy subs, most if not all bolts were Monel 400 or R405 or the strongest alloy K500.

Take a look at this site to learn more about Monel....

http://www.specialmetals.com/products/index.html

You should be able to find a machine shop in your area that stocks that material and can make the bolts for you.

G

[Allen Foote]

Now is the time to buy Monel...with the cost of nickel low, as it has been for quite a while.

[ford]

all I can add to this is that my boat had silicon bronze keel bolts and whilst on the way to the U.S. she was rolled twice in the one night, furthermore she came in 5th on corrected time in the Sydney Hobart, her sistership was rolled at Cape Horn, no damage whatsoever to the keel bolts, make up yor own mind, monel is wonderfull but might be akin to killing a cockroach with a shotgun.

[Johannah]

Sorry, I don't know about monel vs bronze but did you say you saw the When and If???? I've wondered for years whether she still existed. When Fred Ayer died, he left her as a training vessel for a school in Pride's Crossing, but that's not usually a formula for good care and a long life. Who owns her and where, etc, etc. ? Would love to know. In my minds eye, I can see her all lonely moored outside Manchester harbour because she was too big to come in. One of my brothers always hated sailing after being trapped on her for a weekend when he was 12 or 13 and my Dad dragged him along for time with the men. Now I would have loved to go, but those were other times, other customs.

[Ed Harrow]

Hey, ART you had the nerve to slip into Massachusetts and not tell anybody??? Sheeese. I don't have numbers handy, but monel can be considerably stronger than SB, but like Mr Ford said.... So how about a call 800 321 9137, pick the correct option and you can talk to a live person and leave me a message. Expect to hear from you!

Johannah, When & If ended up in a heap when her mooring line parted. Written off. Some details in the latest WoodenBoat. Suffice it to say she ended up at G&B for repair.

[Bob Cleek]

No question, monel is great stuff, but it does cost more. I've never heard of bronze keel bolt threads stripping, though. Where you might nose around is at the knackers, or your local prop and shaft shop. Lots of monel prop shafts out there. They can be cut up and threaded for keel bolts for a lot less than new rod stock, or that's the way it used to be. I never pass up an old shaft in the yard dumpster! LOL

[Art Read]

Thanks guys. Guess I'll wait 'till I get home and see what's available. Sounds like either would probably be fine for my purposes with perhaps Monel being just that bit more "more"...

"WHEN AND IF" looked gorgious! Her hull is black now and everything aboard looked in top condition. (Neither Nat or Ross were aboard though... Ah, well... Perhaps I'll get a chance to meet 'em tommorow. SWMBO and I are going to the Vinyard for the day just to finally see their yard.)

Ed... I'm hoping to make our pilgrimage to the "shrine" on Friday, on our way south to Providence. (We fly out at 6:40 am Saturday morning!) I'll give you a call as our plans firm up to see if you'll be around at all...

Sadly, our schedule didn't allow us to get to Glouchester for the schooner race yesterday, (PRIDE OF BALTIMORE" beating "ERNESTINA" was on the front page of the paper here today...) and we'll also miss the "First Annual, Great Provincetown Schooner Races" here.... Sigh...

[John E Hardiman]

Just one note about monel: If you use a monel bolt use a K-monel or NI-AL Bronze nut. If you use a K-monel bolt use a monel nut. Monel galls (AKA cold welds)something horrible on itself.

[Ed Harrow]

ROTFLMHO - are you good with infants?

What are your plans for Friday night? Where are you staying? I bet I could find you a spare corner...

Galling. Don't go there...

[Pete Dorr]

Art,

We buzzed over to Vineyard Haven today (9/3). Many many wood boats in the harbor including When and If & Rebecca. It's easy to pick out the G&B built boats. They all have a similar look about them. Until I hit the lottery big time my dreamboat is Candle in the Wind (gaff yawl).

Last time we were in VH I snuck into the G&B shop and saw a bunch of tools and the space where they were recently finishing up a sailboat.

Unfortunatly I did not take any photos on either trip. One of these times I'll remember to bring a camera.

[Johannah]

Ok, I give up, being from the North Shore and not South or the Islands. Who are G & B?

[Ed Harrow]

Gannon & Benjamin (sp?), located, as noted, in Vinyard Haven on Martha's Vinyard, south of Cape Cod. Article about them in newest WB Mag.

[Art Read]

Sorry we missed you, Ed... Between family commitements, SWMBO's "itinerirary", (Sandwich Glass Museum, galleries, giftshops and lighthouses) and my own, relentless need to stop at every, out of the way boat yard and distant schooner rig spotted hiding away along the waterfront, we were a bit pressed for time. We wound up leaving P-town at 2 in the morning Saturday to catch our early morning flight out of Providence. Didn't think you'd be real happy to see us at 4:00 am...

We both enjoyed our time in Vinyard Haven, poking around the boatyard and then the "big" building shed out back with their newest schooner project under way. And I must have counted no less than 8 or 10 schooners in the harbor with "SHENANDOAH", "ALABAMA", "REBECCA", "WHEN and IF" and a visiting Fife design(?) in particular, all lined up in a row, just begging to pose for next year's post card. Edgartown had lots of pretty boats on moorings, and beautiful homes lining the streets, but I couldn't help being reminded of visiting the White House, with velvet covered ropes keeping the "rabble" in their place... "Look all you want, but please don't come in..."

After the return ferry ride, we made our way to Salem to crash at my sister's place that night and then did the North Shore circut the next day. Manchester, Glouchester, Rockport, Essex, etc... Had a nice talk with the skipper of the "THOMAS W. LANNON" in Glouchester, (we have a lot of old shipmates in common it turns out...) and also found an old, derilict, poorly built, but well equiped, "cold molded" S&S design similar to my Dark Harbor about to face the chainsaw at Crocker's in Manchester. The gentleman I spoke to there has a soft spot for the Dark Harbor designs... (originally known as the "Manchester 12 1/2 and 17 1/2"...) He's agreed to save the rudder fittings and some other bronze bits from the poor, doomed little beauty for me... Got back to Salem in time to take a little cruise on my sister's new, (old) Lyman. We went over to Marblehead harbor in it and "drooled" over the moored fleet there for awhile... It's funny how much more "welcome" you feel in a nice, old, wooden runabout in such a setting... Got lots of friendly waves... We got back to Salem in time to have dinner and see "ERNISTINA" alongside the town dock behind the local, square rigged, "China trader" replica they have there. "ERNISTINA" looks really good. No shame in her losing to the "PRIDE of BALTIMORE" in that Glouchester race... No wind, I understand, and besides, Jan Miles aboard "PRIDE" is a combination I'd not care to challenge...

Still debating with myself what to do about my keelbolts... I'd already bought some bronze rod in half inch diameter before realising that the plans only call for it in the relatively short, forwardmost keelbolt. (where the keel narrows to a point) The other three are 3/4"... I could have SWORN they were all supposed to be 1/2"... Oh well... I need a bunch of half inch drifts anyway... Now I wonder how hard it's going to be to find nuts that will be appropriate for Monel, assuming I go that route, and how to determine the proper threading to match them... RGM... Dave... Anybody???

[ 09-08-2002, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Ed Harrow]

Hi Art, well those are the breaks. As for threading, nutting, etc, if those various human resources don't come thru, there's always Machinery's Handbook.