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Meerkat
03-08-2003, 03:43 AM
No PPUN intended...


Springtime for Hitler?
BY KNUTE BERGER

DO YOU SMELL fascism in the air? A little whiff of the Wehrmacht? A friend recently suggested that my head needed to be flexed for being, I suppose, a liberal Chicken Little writing doomy columns implying that something jackbooted this way comes.

"Fascist" is a word that hippies wore out with too many references to dad's necktie, so it's not a terribly useful term. But something about Bush II and terrorized America is bringing Third Reich references to the lips: A Saudi Arabian daily recently called Bush a cowboy who was comfortable with the "Nazi-like" policies of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. A Canadian member of Parliament, Bonnie Brown, compared possible U.S. pre-emptive war in Iraq to the tactics used by Germany and Imperial Japan during World War II (surprise attack and annexation). And German Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin created an as-yet unhealed diplomatic rift with the U.S. by using the term "Adolf Nazi" in a discussion of Bush's Iraq policy.

But it's not just overseas critics who are making such comparisons. Late last week, the Drudge Report Web site featured a sneak preview of Washington Post editor Bob Woodward's new book about Bush's war-making apparatus. Bush's master political strategist, Karl Rove, was said to have compared the post-9/11 display at the World Series in Yankee Stadium to a Nazi rally.

It's significant that even members of the administration are reaching for fascist metaphors. They're at hand because we've watched endless hours of the History Channel. Nazism created an incredible vocabulary that is almost impossible not to use as a reference point when it comes to war, aggression, terror, and nationalism. The words and images fit what some of us see and what many feel. In the pages of this paper in recent weeks, readers have compared both Bush and Tim Eyman to Adolf Hitler, which, if you're up on your Holocaust reading, you know is an absurd comparison that cheapens the epithet.

But are the comparisons to fascism otherwise valid? Is America actually in danger of becoming a fascist state? For most of us, fascism is like pornography: We know it when we see it. Roger Griffin, author of International Fascism, has boiled the definition down to an ambitiously simple phrase: It is a "palingenetic populist ultra-nationalism." Meaning, real-deal fascism is a broad movement rooted in nationalism or ethnic identity and promising salvation through apocalyptic rebirth.

Such movements often are the result of tremendous insecurity or response to a real or perceived threat. They often target immigrant groups for persecution. They are obsessed with maintaining the integrity of the "homeland." Individual rights often are suspended in favor of collective security: Privacy is compromised by increased surveillance, military spending, and police powers. Patriotism and moral values are emphasized as an alternative to the decadent ways of the present. A millenarian model is adopted, promising a new order that will cleanse the nation once and for all. Fascist regimes are careful collaborations between one dominant political party, business, and the military. Sometimes, gaining or maintaining power necessitates a circumvention of the democratic process, such as stealing an election.

Anything sound familiar?

NONE OF THIS PROVES America is becoming a fascist state. But we certainly are experiencing some of the conditions where such movements thrive. Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, author of Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the Politics of Identity, observes that a culture steeped in Christian fundamentalism would find the central fascist story line very familiar. Of course, so would a culture steeped in New Age mythology, but last I looked, the Woo-Woo Coalition had less influence in Washington than the Christian Coalition and John Ashcroft was attorney general, not Shirley McLaine. Certainly, at the millennium, on the brink of an expanded war and the potential for chemical, nuclear, and bio-terror Armageddons, at a time when our international woes are centered in the Middle East, the ground zero for the coming Rapture (you can watch it live on a Web cam at www.olivetree.org), (http://www.olivetree.org),) the air is thick with the hothouse atmosphere where fascism takes root, and the sound of goose steps carries.
Tune in again next week for another exciting episode of Berlin on the Potomac where, once again, America's rising neo-fascists give another yawn inspiring performance as earnest and terribly misunderstood but well-meaning conservatives.

[ 03-08-2003, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

Shang
03-08-2003, 04:16 AM
...I don't understand a word of what you said,
but I'll rassle aligators to defend your right to say it...

On Vacation
03-08-2003, 05:23 AM
If and when you wake up and choose to go outside your place of residence, you will be pleasently surprised to find that you can drive your car any place you wish, stand on the street corner, spread your ideas of the government ruining your life, without being jailed, march in the middle of the road without National Guard tanks running over you, wear Nazi stickers on you pants, and shirts in front of the Capital building in Washington , D.C. and get on C-Span and speak in a microphone and say "Death to America" and all of its allies that invade other nations illegally, if you wish. This is not the case in many parts of the world, my friend.

And one more thing, simple matters such as this were avaliable if you would have left your bunker the past year. The only down side you may find is that foggy skys may exist in Seattle, but it not from nuclear power plants exploding.

Hows this, Meerkat, for complete disclosure for you and your anti-war buddies. Everyday Blix is starting to look like he is also in bed with your idol, and peaceful leader of the freeworld, Sadamn. But no evidence will convince some. But it makes for good reading material, while sitting in your private bunker.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5470-603638,00.html
March 08, 2003

Iraqi drone 'could drop chemicals on troops'
From James Bone in New York



A REPORT declassified by the United Nations yesterday contained a hidden bombshell with the revelation that inspectors have recently discovered an undeclared Iraqi drone with a wingspan of 7.45m, suggesting an illegal range that could threaten Iraq’s neighbours with chemical and biological weapons.
US officials were outraged that Hans Blix, the chief UN weapons inspector, did not inform the Security Council about the drone, or remotely piloted vehicle, in his oral presentation to Foreign Ministers and tried to bury it in a 173-page single-spaced report distributed later in the day. The omission raised serious questions about Dr Blix’s objectivity.

“Recent inspections have also revealed the existence of a drone with a wingspan of 7.45m that has not been declared by Iraq,” the report said. “Officials at the inspection site stated that the drone had been test-flown. Further investigation is required to establish the actual specifications and capabilities of these RPV drones . . . (they) are restricted by the same UN rules as missiles, which limit their range to 150km (92.6 miles).

Colin Powell, the US Secretary of State, told the Security Council in February that Washington had evidence that Iraq had test-flown a drone in a race-track pattern for 500km non-stop.

In another section of the declassified report, the inspectors give warning that Iraq still has spraying devices and drop tanks that could be used in dispersing chemical and biological agents from aircraft. “A large number of drop tanks of various types, both imported and locally manufactured, are available and could be modified,” it says.

The paper, obtained by The Times, details the possible chemical and biological arsenal that British and US Forces could face in an invasion of Iraq. The paper suggests that Iraq has huge stockpiles of anthrax, may be developing long-range missiles and could possess chemical and biological R400 aerial bombs and Scud missiles, and even smallpox.

Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, told his fellow Security Council Foreign Ministers that the document was a“chilling read”.

General Powell resorted to reading passages from the paper out loud in the Council chamber. He pointed out that it chronicled nearly 30 times when Iraq had failed to provide credible evidence to substantiate its claims, and 17 instances when inspectors uncovered evidence that contradicted those claims. But his draft copy, dating from a meeting of the inspectors’ advisory board last week, did not contain the crucial passage about the new drone.

The decision by Dr Blix to declassify the internal report marks the first time the UN has made public its suspicions about Iraq’s banned weapons programmes, rather than what it has been able to actually confirm. “Unmovic has credible information that the total quantity of biological warfare agent in bombs, warheads and in bulk at the time of the Gulf War was 7,000 litres more than declared by Iraq. This additional agent was most likely all anthrax,” it says.

The report says there is “credible information” indicating that 21,000 litres of biological warfare agent, including some 10,000 litres of anthrax, was stored in bulk at locations around the country during the war and was never destroyed.

The paper, a collection of 29 “clusters” of questions for Iraq, offers some reassurance about Iraq’s missing botulinum toxin, which Unmovic believed is “unlikely to retain much, if any, of its potency” if it has been stockpiled since 1991.

[ 03-08-2003, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-08-2003, 06:30 AM
By the pricking of my thumbs
Something wicked this way comes....

Be assured, the dragon is not dead,
But once more from the caves of sleep
Shall rear its fabulous great head....

There IS something nasty going on. The rather poisonous Mark Steyn is a Fascist, in my book.

The USA is, we know, prone to waves of silly hysteria - it was them Russians and them Chinamen coming to steal your cars from out of your garages, back in the Fifties, and now its them Moslems with their intergalactic conspiracy.

Certain journalists close to the present leadership of the Republican party in the USA have been saying "We are the only remaining super-power!" for so long that they fostered an illusion of invincibility. So, when something nasty got under the guard and perpetrated an atrocity, and that it was an atrocity I have no doubt, the Administration believed itself bound to go and "Kick ass" around the globe because its credibility was at stake.

This is nonsense, of course, but dangerous and infectious nonsense.

We had thirty years of terrorism in Britain to which we responded by maintaining a stiff upper lip and carrying on business as usual, regardless of assassinated politicians, abductions and torturing to death, random shootings, exploding office blocks, bombs in cars, bombs on buses, bombs in litter bins, bombs in hotels containing the Cabinet, mortar attacks on No 10 Downing Street, and the rest of it.

But now we have been infected with the poisonous miasma of fear emanating from some parts of the USA, and we are about to be panicked into doing something really stupid, and probably really wicked.

stan v
03-08-2003, 06:40 AM
ACB, relax. Pretend nothing bad happened on 9/11. Pretend there are no terrorists. Maybe this will help. I don't give a rats a** what you think.

Greg H
03-08-2003, 07:12 AM
And that is fine example to illustrate ACB's point, Stan.

As Bruce was trying to point out in another thread, it doesn't matter how wonderful we think that we are. It is how the rest of the world see's us that matters. We don't exist in isolation, and will never be safe if we act like bullies.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-08-2003, 07:19 AM
Of course there are terrorists, Stan. Not very many of them, but there are a few, who need to be caught and dealt with according to the law.

Being afraid of them, and letting your fear panic you into doing what they want, is allowing them to win.

Your fear of them is affecting your judgement. That is what terrorism is all about. The only way to defeat terrorism is to ignore it and go about life in a normal way. Iraq is no more dangerous now than it was a few years ago - the only thing that has changed is that you have grown afraid of it.

How many terrorist movements have been sucessfully dealt with by the methods you are recommending, Stan?

And how many by our methods?

[ 03-08-2003, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

Cap'n R an R
03-08-2003, 07:33 AM
ACB....good choice .....lets ignore the Worlds stock markets also....maybe they will go away...then we can stop worrying about an economic collapse....oh yes ...lets stop worrying about our health....lets stop worrying about everything ...then all bad things will go away...thats right .."all we have to fear is fear itself"...."dont worry be happy"......good show....thanks....

stan v
03-08-2003, 07:33 AM
Habib, here's another fine example. ACB, stuff that stiff upper lip.

Greg H
03-08-2003, 07:46 AM
Stan, that attitude is food for terrorists. You must want more of them, since you seem intent on nurturing them.

[ 03-08-2003, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: Greg H ]

stan v
03-08-2003, 07:48 AM
You know, I'm glad you brought that up. I've been feeling terrorized on this forum. Do my feelings matter?

Hurt in Houston

Greg H
03-08-2003, 07:51 AM
Tough love, Stan

On Vacation
03-08-2003, 07:52 AM
FACT:
Report came from and withheld by Hans Blix, now read this very carefully, and the UNITED NATIONS, not Dubya, or Rumfield. Remember, they hold more credence to the world and share opinions from outside of this country, then even Colin Powell's reports and satillite shots. Remember those falsified and doctored shots shown to the APPOINTED world leaders at the U.N.? :rolleyes: Those guys that sit back with there blue jackets balloning open, with the short length ties and marshmellows stuck in their ears, listening to BALH, BLAH, RAH, RAH, and brother can the U.S. spare a few dimes today?

[ 03-08-2003, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

Rancocas
03-08-2003, 08:10 AM
Draw a circle, but leave a small opening at the top.
At the bottom, right at the 6 o:clock point, write in "Constitutional Republic".
On the right side of the circle, at 12:30 o:clock, where the line ends, write in "Fasism".
On the left side of the circle, at 11:30 o:clock, write in "Communism".

The United States was conceived and set up to be a Constitutional Republic. This is not a democracy, which is a fallacy most Americans fail to understand. In general, and simple terms, in a democracy the majority rules. The majority gets whatever they vote in favor of. However, in a Constitutional Republic there are certain items set forth in the Constitution that are never up for a vote. These items can not be changed, no matter what the majority wants. Here in the United States, these rock solid, unchangable items are generally set forth in our Bill OF Rights.
Yeah, yeah, I know the Bill of Rights can be modified, but it a difficult process, made that way on purpose so that these basic rights can not easily be usurped.
A Constititional Republic was thought by this nation's founders to be the ideal form of government, the middle of the circle.
Note that the far right, Fasism, is so far removed from the ideal; and so is the far left, Communism, that these extremes end up right beside each other in the circle of governments.
Between the ideal of a Constitutional Republic, and the extreme ends of either fashism or communism are found all the various other forms of government. Socialism falls on the left, before communism. Nazism is on the right before fasism. Dictatorships and monarchies could fall on either the left or right depending on how they lean.
Very, very few people fall exactly on the center of Constitutional Republic. Most everyone leans one way or the other. The critical mark is how far we lean.
I lean to the right, but I'm far, far away from the likes of Hitler. However, our President is scaring me. I expected much better from him. I am dissapointed.
But I believe our last President, Mr Clinton, was way to far to the left. His Attorney General, Janet Reno, scared the bejeezes out of me. And Congresspeople such as Hillary Clinton and Charles Schumer are, I believe, so far to the left that they are outright enemies of a Constitutional Republic.
Both political parties in the United States have chosen to ignore the Constitution, and we, the people, have let them, so far.
I believe this country is pulling apart, and I do believe that a split is inevitable. When will it happen? Who knows.
"The League of the South" is an organization that advocates secession and a return of the Confederate States of America. "The Free State Project" is a plan of the Libertarian Party to take over a particular State of the United States, and then, possibly secede.
They have web sites if any one cares to look them up.
My point is that we, as a nation, are falling apart. Like a bad marriage, there are irreconcilable differences, and the only solution is divorce. Sooner, or later, it is going to happen.

Cap'n R an R
03-08-2003, 08:26 AM
Really well said!!!! ..... our founders were brilliant....they warned us of the pitfalls lurking out there....over time we have ignored them...something for nothing became a well used political tool.....we were warned about that....fiat currency is something for nothing....we are in the midst of a true mess....markets decline because millions of people are voting with their money...and heading for the exits....we will eventually hit bottom in all areas....truly hope and pray there is something left to ressurect at that time....not sure about Bush....he is a true believer and a true Christian and a man of God...that counts for a lot with me.....many dont like this crammed down their throats.....that can be a problem but I dont read him as a war monger as some due.....I believe he takes his obligations seriously....Hey where are the founders when we need them???

Mrleft8
03-08-2003, 08:49 AM
Oyster
.
Member # 5154

posted 03-08-2003 05:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If and when you wake up and choose to go outside your place of residence, you will be pleasently surprised to find that you can drive your car any place you wish, stand on the street corner, spread your ideas of the government ruining your life, without being jailed, march in the middle of the road without National Guard tanks running over you, wear Nazi stickers on you pants, and shirts in front of the Capital building in Washington , D.C. and get on C-Span and speak in a microphone and say "Death to America" and all of its allies that invade other nations illegally, if you wish. This is not the case in many parts of the world, my friend.

And yet... You can be arrested in Albany NY for wearing a "Pro-peace" T-shirt in a shopping mall...
Not too many people thought Hitler was a threat to world stability when he first came to power either... It's the sneaky ones ya gotta watch closely.
I had 3 friends visiting from Germany here last August. They were appalled at the number of American flags, and bumper stickers, and signs with slogans like: "All American all the time". They said it was EXACTLY like Germany in the '30's-'40's...

[ 03-08-2003, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Mrleft8 ]

stan v
03-08-2003, 09:32 AM
ALL AMERICAN
ALL THE TIME

Paul Denison
03-08-2003, 09:53 AM
Rancocas,

Your post was interesting. Much I can agree with there. This country is not the same as it was 40 years ago. But then again I don’t believe any country could stay the same over 40 years. The President doesn’t scare me, I really think he is looking out for the future best interests of this country. So many are short sighted. It seems that folks are afraid to look too far ahead, all they see is Fascism or splintering of this country. Now this country does seem to pay too much attention to special interests. I guess it is inevitable, as the congress goes so goes the country.

Cap'n R an R

Sure, the economy is in the tank, and maybe it is because of our funny money, but I don’t know of any other countries that are in better shape. I’ll stay here and go down with the ship.

Mrleft8

Rancocas spoke to this in his post. Incidents like the tee-shirt happen because of the special interest groups and their court actions over the years. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Is it property rights or is it censorship?

Cap'n R an R
03-08-2003, 10:01 AM
Paul ...I think Shang ri la may be in better shape...that's about it!!!!...I dont even like to leave Winter Haven....maybe a trip to Fripp Island,S.C. and a visit to Ct. ....thats it for us.....

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-08-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Cap'n R an R:
ACB....good choice .....lets ignore the Worlds stock markets also....maybe they will go away...then we can stop worrying about an economic collapse....oh yes ...lets stop worrying about our health....lets stop worrying about everything ...then all bad things will go away...thats right .."all we have to fear is fear itself"...."dont worry be happy"......good show....thanks....Captain, there is a huge gap between "business as usual", which is what I recommend, and ignoring things. Let's not get too excited.

Meerkat
03-08-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by stan v:
ALL AMERICAN
ALL THE TIMEYup, some number of Americans are that dumb.

stan, here's a reality check for you: how much of the stuff in your house wasn't made in America and can't be bought American-made because it either is no longer being made in this country or has never been made here? If world trade cratered, you wouldn't like the result I don't think. You can forget consumer electronics, car parts (whether you have a US branded car or not) and most of the clothing, including shoes, (I assume) you wear.

[ 03-08-2003, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

Meerkat
03-08-2003, 08:31 PM
Hey Oyster, if I can go anywhere I want, why can't I stroll into the Whitehouse? Why can't I board a commercial airliner without having my constitutional rights violated? I can't go to Cuba if I want to either. Ditto a few other places (not that I actually want to go, just pointing out the falacy of your claim).

If this is such a free and open country, why is the Attorney General of the United States seeking authority to declare, on his word alone, that an organization is terrorist backed and any US citizen loses his/her citizenship for supporting it? If that becomes law, we would be able to go after pro-abortionists because they have sponsored murder of doctors and if you ever gave any sort of donation to an organization that funded them, your citizenship would vanish.

The bottom line is that the only person that can guarantee your safety is you and there's always going to be somebody out there trying to persuade you that less freedom is in your self-interest - when it's really in their self-interest that they're concerned with.

stan v
03-08-2003, 08:38 PM
EEEK! You should have spent more time in Texas.

Mrleft8
03-08-2003, 11:11 PM
Yeah Donn... That's it... The Germans were putting pro American bumper stickers on their Mercedes Benz's back in 1934... Didn't you know that? That's why Ford decided to fund their defense programs.... :D

Meerkat
03-08-2003, 11:18 PM
And lets not forget that General Motors bought Opel in '33 or '34.

Art Read
03-09-2003, 12:20 AM
"...This is nonsense, of course, but dangerous and infectious nonsense.

We had thirty years of terrorism in Britain to which we responded by maintaining a stiff upper lip and carrying on business as usual, regardless of assassinated politicians, abductions and torturing to death, random shootings, exploding office blocks, bombs in cars, bombs on buses, bombs in litter bins, bombs in hotels containing the Cabinet, mortar attacks on No 10 Downing Street, and the rest of it..."

Gee... Sounds like a plan, eh, folks? :rolleyes:

Nicholas Carey
03-09-2003, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by Meerkat:
If world trade cratered, you wouldn't like the result I don't think. You can forget consumer electronics, car parts (whether you have a US branded car or not) and most of the clothing, including shoes, (I assume) you wear.Hell...you can forget the car. Even the mighty Ford pickup—that most American [Texan] of manly American [Texan] vehicles—is assembled in Canada (Oakville, Ontario) these days in Canada.

BTW, Stan...Ford puts those trucks together in Canada because the Canucks put them together faster than the American could; they build them with higher quality and....they do it for less. (NPR, last week or two).

Part of the cost savings is attributable to their higher productivity and part of it is due to the exchange rate...but....

Between US $ 5-6/hour is saved in labour due to...

[drum roll]...

[the envelope please]....

Canada's universal health insurance system.

Ford and GM, BTW, support it wholeheartedly (in Canada).

It's cheaper because costs are distributed across the entire society: in the US, the vast majority of healthcare costs are born by employers.

Meerkat
03-10-2003, 04:07 PM
Funny how that shut 'em up Nicholas :D

On Vacation
03-10-2003, 04:16 PM
Ever heard of the invisible worker in the auto industry in the U.S. called the , drum roll,

unions

Besides the increased wages, ever figured out how much loss of productivity that is created by the "Its hard to lose my job no matter how bad my attitude is or how much I miss work. It will take a long drawn out process for me to be fired."

Insurance benefits will not put autos together.

Meerkat
03-10-2003, 04:30 PM
One wonders how many people are at those US plants vs. how automated they are...

swamp_yankee
03-10-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Oyster:
If and when you wake up and choose to go outside your place of residence, you will be pleasently surprised to find that you can drive your car any place you wish, ...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This Land is Your Land
Woody Guthrie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHORUS:

This land is your land, this land is my land
From California to the New York island
From the Redwood forest to the Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for you and me

CANADIAN CHORUS:

This land is your land, this land is my land
From Bonavista to Vancouver Island
From the Arctic Circle to the Great Lake Waters
This land was made for you and me

As I was walking that ribbon of highway
I saw above me that endless skyway
I saw below me that golden valley
This land was made for you and me

I roamed and rambled and followed my footsteps
O’er the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
While all around me, a voice was saying
This land was made for you and me

When the sun came shining and I was strolling
And the wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling
As the fog was lifting, a voice was chanting
This land was made for you and me

As I went walking, I saw a sign there
On the sign it said NO TRESPASSING
But on the other side it didn’t say nothing
That side was made for you and me!

In the squares of the city, in the shadow of the steeple
In the relief office, I seen my people;
As they stood there hungry I stood there asking,
Is this land made for you and me?

Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking that freedom highway
Nobody living can make me turn back
This land was made for you and me