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SandMaster
08-30-2005, 08:01 PM
I know it probably will be. But given the nature of its topography and the virtual certainty of another storm of this magnitude or greater being only a matter of time, should it be?

It seems to me that as a business center of high rises it could work with workers coming and going from higher ground a safe distance away. But to subject people including the US taxpayer to such a foolhardy venture as rebuilding a major city in the middle of a flood plain that is below sea level and historically vulnerable to hurricanes during a period of increased hurricane activity smacks of idiocy.

Hell they federal government no longer wants to pay for beach renourishment, why pay for a city to be built and repeatedly destroyed?

[ 08-30-2005, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: SandMaster ]

huisjen
08-30-2005, 08:09 PM
Katey's grandfather once lost his bait shack from his wharf in a hurricane. In the morning it just wasn't there any more. But insurance covered the loss and he rebuilt it.

30 Miles inland, as a greenhouse at camp.

There's a lesson there.

Dan

brad9798
08-30-2005, 08:10 PM
Repeatedly destroyed? Please expoune si vous plait? :confused:

huisjen
08-30-2005, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by brad9798:
Repeatedly destroyed? Please expoune si vous plait? :confused:
000
ABNT20 KNHC 302126
TWOAT
TROPICAL WEATHER OUTLOOK
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
530 PM EDT TUE AUG 30 2005

FOR THE NORTH ATLANTIC...CARIBBEAN SEA AND THE GULF OF MEXICO...

THE AREA OF LOW PRESSURE LOCATED ABOUT 1500 MILES EAST OF THE LESSER
ANTILLES CONTINUES TO SHOW SIGNS OF ORGANIZATION AS IT MOVES TO THE
WEST-NORTHWEST. THIS SYSTEM HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BECOME A
TROPICAL DEPRESSION OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS AS UPPER-LEVEL
WINDS BECOME MORE CONDUCIVE FOR DEVELOPMENT.

THE REMNANTS OF TROPICAL DEPRESSION THIRTEEN ARE SHOWING SIGNS OF
REGENERATION ABOUT 850 MILES EAST-SOUTHEAST OF BERMUDA. THIS
SYSTEM COULD BECOME A TROPICAL CYCLONE AGAIN TONIGHT OR TOMORROW AS
IT MOVES NORTHWARD.

ELSEWHERE...TROPICAL STORM FORMATION IS NOT EXPECTED THROUGH
WEDNESDAY.

FORECASTER FRANKLIN

John of Phoenix
08-30-2005, 08:17 PM
Ya got ta rebuild New Orleans, man.
Where else ya gonna have dat Mardi Gras, ting?

http://www.thisisthelife.com/photos/experiences/large/mardi-gras-new-orleans.jpg

[ 08-30-2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: John Teetsel ]

huisjen
08-30-2005, 08:23 PM
Where else?

I bet they'd go for it in Vegas.

Dan

Hughman
08-30-2005, 08:25 PM
Maybe some third world countries will send relief crews and materials.....

Katherine
08-30-2005, 08:25 PM
Heck, toplessness seems to be pretty well accepted in Vegas.

Bruce Hooke
08-30-2005, 08:28 PM
It seems to me that New Orleans has not exactly been "destroyed." Yes, damn near every building probably has some flood damage, and damn near every building probably has some wind damage too, but it is not at all like towns further east where it sounds like just about everything above ground level is pretty much gone...

joejapan
08-30-2005, 08:29 PM
Well the good ol' US taxpayers are paying to rebuild the beach houses in Banda Aceh, why the hell not NO ?

Gary E
08-30-2005, 08:30 PM
So far it looks like much of New Orleans will be a total loss. Much of it will never be rehabilitated, same as the homes and buildings that were condemed after Tropical storm Allison dumped so much water on Houston a few yrs ago.

New Orleans should take this oportunity to jack up those buildings that are worth saving as Galveston did and raise the city to above sea level and protect it with seawalls as did Galveston.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On September 8, 1900, a hurricane sent an 8-foot high wave crashing into the city of Galveston, Texas. At that time, Galveston was the state's largest city with 36,000 residents. This hurricane killed 6,000-8,000 people and is considered to be the worse natural disaster in U.S. history. After the hurricane, the city asked retired Army engineer Henry Robert to design a seawall that would be seven miles long and seventeen feet high. Robert designed the wall as asked and also raised the city by pumping sand underneath the buildings. In 1915, the seawall was tested by another hurricane. This time, all but 8 people survived.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.galvestonhistory.org/history.htm

huisjen
08-30-2005, 08:33 PM
Right. And how much fill will it take to raise the many square miles of N.O. up 30 feet? Pumping in sand sounds simple, but I bet a lot of places won't take it.

Dan

Gary E
08-30-2005, 08:48 PM
Galveston did it 100 years ago...

Bruce Hooke
08-30-2005, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Gary E:
Galveston did it 100 years ago...Over how big an area? Was it just the downtown and similar areas or was it the entire city?

brad9798
08-30-2005, 09:33 PM
Well, Dan, that didn't really answer crap, now did it. :rolleyes:

Besides NO, St. Louis has the BIGGEST Mardi Gras in the world ... and we've no hurricane issues.

Hmmm ...

[ 08-30-2005, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: brad9798 ]

SandMaster
08-30-2005, 09:35 PM
I guess what it boils down to is the question of how much we are willing to pay to attempt to beat mother nature. I say attempt because we are doomed to fail.

How long has the corp of engineers been working on that levee system and pumping system? Engineeering and schemeing and planning and praying? And the money already spent.

How much good has it done? We all know that sea levels are on the rise. Does it make sense to pump untold billions more into an effort that is destined for doom?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
08-30-2005, 09:35 PM
ummm haven't you guys spent like 100 billion in Iraq? You've got the money to rebuild anything ;)

almeyer
08-30-2005, 09:42 PM
Over how big an area? Was it just the downtown and similar areas or was it the entire city? I work in Galveston. A good portion of the present city (not just the downtown area) was filled in with sand, I believe which was dredged from Offatt's Bayou, where I sail now. For 1900, it was a major undertaking, as was the construction of the seawall which was recently recognized as a civil engineering landmark. At the time, Galveston was considered the "Wall Street of the West" so it was worth rebuilding in the eyes of it's citizens. Remember Galveston is originally a barrier island (i.e., a glorified sand bar), so it's easy to question the wisdom of locating a town at such a location. You could say the same about New Orleans, but it's there, and ration aside, it's difficult to imagine that it won't be rebuilt.
Al

Paul Girouard
08-30-2005, 10:41 PM
Another example of giving up in the face of adverisity , on WBF. If it's hard we (USA) no long can do it , some of you are quitters, easier to quit than press on. IMO

Sort of not what got us to where we are , for good , or bad , In Your Opinion of us , U.S.

Massive enver. issues will need to be overlooked , but enver. issues are spewing all over the gulf as we speak.
It should be rebuilt , and I think it will be , time will tell.

John of Phoenix
08-30-2005, 11:02 PM
I seem to remember that the soil in the delta is quite plastic, it moves under weight. That's how the molehill that was Old New Orleans sunk to the level of Bourbon Street today, so to speak. Sure you could fill it in at an incredible cost and rebuild all the skyscrapers, but within a hundred years, you'd be back to below sea level.

Maybe this was the 300-year hurricane that was just overdue. Fate, if you will. Has Galveston had another storm like the one in 1900?

Sure rebuild, but sensibly.

[ 08-31-2005, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: John Teetsel ]

John of Phoenix
08-30-2005, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
ummm haven't you guys spent like 100 billion in Iraq? You've got the money to rebuild anything ;) Peter, I think that's what's behind the Gates/Buffet query. "Hey guys, we're a little strapped this month. Could you lend your old Uncle a couple a hundred billion?" :D

John of Phoenix
08-30-2005, 11:11 PM
AHHH, I just thought about those above ground cemeteries.
Man, what a mess.

Paul Girouard
08-30-2005, 11:17 PM
So John if Phoenix where to burn , would it be rebuilt? Or a masive flash flood ? Ya it will never happen, Ah ,ya right , it's been designed in . Humm??

LeeG
08-30-2005, 11:55 PM
rebuilding will be happening in a lot of places besides NewOrleans,,just like after the Tsunami.
c&p from NYT

Editorial
New Orleans in Peril

Published: August 31, 2005
On the day after Hurricane Katrina was declared to be not as bad as originally feared, it became clear that the effects of the storm had been, after all, beyond devastation. Homeowners in Biloxi, Miss., staggered through wrecked neighborhoods looking for their loved ones. In New Orleans, the mayor reported that rescue boats had begun pushing past dead bodies to look for the stranded living. Gas leaks began erupting into flames, and looking at the city, now at least 80 percent under water, it was hard not to think of last year's tsunami, or even ancient Pompeii
Disaster has, as it almost always does, called up American generosity and instances of heroism. Young people helped the old onto rafts in flooded New Orleans streets, and exhausted rescue workers refused all offers of rest, while people as far away as Kansas and Arizona went online to offer shelter in their homes to the refugees. It was also a reminder of how much we rely on government to imagine the unimaginable and plan for the worst. As the levees of Lake Pontchartrain gave way, flooding New Orleans, it seemed pretty clear that in this case, government did not live up to the job.

But this seems like the wrong moment to dwell on fault-finding, or even to point out that it took what may become the worst natural disaster in American history to pry President Bush out of his vacation. All the focus now must be on rescuing the survivors. Beyond that lies a long and painful recovery, which must begin with a national vow to help all the storm victims and to save and repair New Orleans.

People who think of that graceful city and the rest of the Mississippi Delta as tourist destinations must have been reminded, watching the rescue operations, that the real residents of this area are in the main poor and black. The only resources most of them will have to fall back on will need to come from the federal government.

Those of us in New York watch the dire pictures from Louisiana with keen memories of the time after Sept. 11, when the rest of the nation made it clear that our city was their city, and that everyone was part of the battle to restore it. New Orleans, too, is one of the places that belongs to every American's heart - even for people who have never been there.

Right now it looks as if rescuing New Orleans will be a task much more daunting than any city has faced since the San Francisco fire of 1906. It must be a mission for all of us.

Shang
08-31-2005, 12:41 AM
Hey...whud ever it costs...
...Some things are worth saving...

http://24.234.163.61:82/galleries/mardigras04/flash303.jpg

( This'll be Scot-ed in about two minutes...)

Jack Heinlen
08-31-2005, 12:47 AM
Fun photo. I love the look on the left. But it shall be stomped. We shall not expose the human breast, period. ;)

George Roberts
08-31-2005, 01:15 AM
500,000 people in New Orleans to relocate at $100,000 each = $50 billion.

Cost to rebuild in place = $25 billion.

The government is slow to learn, i.e. stupid. The city will be rebuilt. The levees will not be maintained. The pump system will not be maintained. History will repeat.

doorstop
08-31-2005, 02:27 AM
OOOKAY..... regarding the piccy, whats with the poofs wearing the beads and why do the sheilas wear the same tacky cheap stuff too? :confused:

As for NooOrleans, I expect that you blokes will rebuild it and I also expect that you will squawk like buggery when it gets washed away and flattened even worse the next time. Oh, and due to Global Warming it shouldn't be too long :D

Telly here seems to be focussing mainly on the looting by the way.... :eek:

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-31-2005, 05:01 AM
Yet again, the USA raids the world's insurance market. Probable cost of insured losses, this time - US$ 20-26 billion.

Looking at the mess, each time a hurricane hits the US mainland, I am struck by the poor quality of construction. It all looks "third world".

No decent storm drains, electric power carried on overhead poles, obviously inadequate building codes.

It's pathetic.

Face it, you live in a hurricane zone. Learn to build properly.

And just wait for the whinges about US$3 per gallon gasoline to put in your SUV's.

I won't bother waiting for GWB to make the connection between the USA's use of 25% of the world's oil and the global warming that caused the severity of the storm.

Donn
08-31-2005, 05:35 AM
Feel better now, Lord Andrew? You pompous git.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-31-2005, 05:51 AM
A cut and paste for you, Donn:

Lloyd's List, today:

THE world’s largest reinsurer, Munich Re, has said Hurricane Katrina could cost the global insurance industry between $15bn and $20bn in insured losses.

“This estimate is based on findings of our geophysical and loss-adjusting departments,” a spokesman said.

He put the possible gross loss for Munich Re at “up to €400m” ($487m), but declined to give a net figure.

There would be no impact on the company’s net result, he said, as it had made provisions for such losses. Other reinsurers declined to come forward with estimates. “We cannot bring our surveyors in yet,” said a spokesman for Swiss Re, adding that there would be a figure later this week. Similar comments were made by a spokeswoman for Hannover Re.

Munich Re noted that 2005 promised to be a difficult hurricane year. “Normally, there are 10 hurricanes in one season; we are now already at number 11,” the spokesman said.

In the US, insurance experts have begun warning of a potential catastrophe. Experts suggested insured losses from Katrina could total $9bn to $26bn. The upper limit would surpass the costliest US storm on record, 1992’s Hurricane Andrew, which ran up a bill of $21.6bn.

However, analysts said it was too early to speculate about rate increases, since major insurers themselves are not expected to release loss estimates for several days.

The Lloyd’s market was quick to reassure its customers.

“Lloyd’s expects to receive significant insurance claims... predominantly in relation to offshore energy installations in the Gulf, property damage and business interruption,” it said.

“Despite the severity of Katrina, the Lloyd’s market is well equipped to manage the financial impact of a catastrophe on this scale.”

The storm moved away from the Gulf coast yesterday, leaving citizens and companies alike to assess the damage. The full extent of the damage could take weeks to emerge, officials said, but first reports were ominous.

The US Federal Minerals Management Service said 92% of the US Gulf’s daily crude production, or 1.4m barrels a day, and 83% of gas production, or 8.3 bn cu ft, remained shut.

The actual figures could be higher due to under-reporting. The US Gulf produces about 28% of the nation’s crude and 20% of natural gas.

President George W Bush indicated a willingness to tap into the US Strategic Petroleum Reserve, the emergency crude stockpile, if needed. Citgo said it would need 500,000 barrels of crude oil from this reserve to keep its Lake Charles refinery operating.

About 16% of US refining capacity is in Louisiana, and 12% in the New Orleans area. At least nine refineries were closed in anticipation of Katrina and a few others operating at reduced capacity, eliminating an estimated 2m barrels a day of US refining capacity out of a total of about 17m barrels.

As oil futures soared there was talk of a “super spike” in gasoline prices to $2.75-$3 a gallon in the next 10 days. Analysts said restarting refineries was a delicate operation and if a sizeable number of those shut down were not back on stream by tomorrow the price impact of gasoline stock drawdowns could be even more dramatic.

Valero, the biggest US independent refiner, said it could be two weeks before its 185,000 bpd refinery in Norco, Louisiana, was restarted. The refinery was under three feet of water and was said to have sustained minor damage to its cooling tower.

Another concern was offshore rigs. According to the RigZone. com website, more than half of the 231 offshore rigs excluding inland barges working in the US Gulf were in Katrina’s path.

A total of 48 rigs, worth about $2.9bn, lay within the most adversely affected areas where winds were at hurricane force in excess of 74 mph. Another 69 rigs, costing about $4bn, were in waters that experienced tropical storm winds of 36 to 74 mph.

Most oil companies yesterday did not have a tally for rig damage, saying they would have to wait until helicopters returned with factual details. However, in what the New York Times called an “early sign”, Royal Dutch Shell revealed that tracking device data from two unspecified rigs showed they had “shifted out of location”.

Known incidents included the semi-submersible accommodation platform Chumel (13,074 gt, built 1983), which blew loose from its moorings, ploughed through a state docks terminal and then slammed into the Cochrane-Africatown USA bridge in Alabama.

The towline parted on the semi- submersible rig Ensco 7500 while it was under tow away from Katrina on Sunday. The towline could not be reconnected and the rig was evacuated before suspension of helicopter service in advance of the storm. All personnel on board were safe and initial reports did not disclose any apparent rig damage, operator Ensco said.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SandMaster
08-31-2005, 06:01 AM
One things fer sure andrew, I dont feel sorry for insurance companies. Theyve been screwing us since day one and will continue to do so.

Donn
08-31-2005, 06:03 AM
"There would be no impact on the company’s net result, he said, as it had made provisions for such losses." That pretty well sums it up, eh?

Con LanAdo
08-31-2005, 06:14 AM
is it now time to consider that a plan to elevate the depression to above sea level would be possible & positive. Only been through there once (quickly) i thought the area resembled the worst slum in Saigon - present day coverage leads me to belive much of that area still is a slum.

Phillip Allen
08-31-2005, 06:20 AM
Might a slum be described as the detritus of the elite?

Con LanAdo
08-31-2005, 07:08 AM
kinda knew that would get me in trouble as i hit the button - certainly not anyones elitist just had visions of Saigon when i went through NO once. My apologies.

Phillip Allen
08-31-2005, 07:28 AM
No need to apologise...I was just wondering in my twisted way...not suggesting it would ever turn out any other way...just the way it is...the only difference we could make is that of attitude.

Billy Bones
08-31-2005, 07:44 AM
No jaunt into the bilge is complete, these days, without a crushing disappointment from Andrew Craig-Bennett, it seems. What a small person you've become, in the tragic fashion of all old farts hiding behind a long forgotten liberal doctrine.

RichKrough
08-31-2005, 07:55 AM
We have pissed away about 100 billion in Iraq so far and barely have the lights back on in Baghdad, so 30-50 billion for the Gulf Coast to rebuild should be a bargain

Phillip Allen
08-31-2005, 07:57 AM
edging toward political posturing... :eek:

George Roberts
08-31-2005, 09:02 AM
Andrew Craig-Bennett ---

Insurance companies accept money to take the financial risk. I assume they know what they are doing.

Billy Bones
08-31-2005, 09:17 AM
The 'View Recent Posts' button reveals that you haven't so much as mentioned a sympathetic thought for those in Katrina's path. Quite a stark contrast against the concern, sympathy and support you were innundated with back in July.

Hmmm. 'Spose I'm wrong to have expected otherwise.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-31-2005, 09:33 AM
Well, that would be because I don't feel any sympathy for them, Billy.

They are citizens of the world's richest state. It is a state which is capable of putting its citizens on the Moon. It is presumably a state which is capable of dealing with tropical storms.

The citizens of, taking a few examples at random, Hong Kong, Okinawa (which is experiencing a rather more violent storm even as I write) Shanghai (which was hit by one last month) and Japan seem to get through a tropical storm of these dimensions without fuss, and quite un-noticed by almost everyone in the United States, on quite a regular basis.

They have rather different building codes. Their citizens prepare properly.

If you delve back as far as 9/11, you will find sufficient expressions of sympathy from me, unaccustomed as we British are to expressing such sentiments. But if you live in inadequate housing, in an area known to be subject to tropical storms, you have no-one but yourself to blame.

I fear that the long forgotten liberal doctrine of this old fart does not extend to feeling sorry for looters.

(Edited for spelling and grammar)

[ 08-31-2005, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

Alan D. Hyde
08-31-2005, 09:33 AM
I don't understand the thinking behind the design of the levee system.

Judging from the diagrams I've seen, ONE BREACH may flood the entire city--- there is NO compartmentalization. Even a fairly modestly designed ocean-going vessel will generally have several watertight bulkheads, so that the ingress of water through one breach in the hull won't sink the entire vessel.

Shouldn't the engineers who constructed New Orleans levee system have thought along similar lines?

If I had a house or other building there that I valued, WHY wouldn't I either contruct my own levee around it, or jack it up high enough on well-anchored concrete foundations, so that it might escape damage from any flooding that may be reasonably expected?

Thoughts? Comments? Engineers? Architects? Hydrologists? Others?

Alan

P.S. Andrew's comments on the quality of U.S. construction are not without some justification.

I have on several occasions (while wearing work boots :D ) offered to bet various contractors that I could walk thru an exterior wall of one of their houses (vinyl siding, celotex, 2 x 4's, blown cellulose, 1/2" sheet rock... ). No one has yet taken me up on it.

And, how many here have permanent roofs on their houses? Very few I'll wager...

[ 08-31-2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

ahp
08-31-2005, 09:39 AM
Economics will probably determine the rebuilding. Poor folks with no insurance will rebuild in the low spots, where land is cheap, and pray a lot. The more fortunate will look at the insurance costs and decide to rebuild elsewhere. This is Economics 101 unless the Government screws it up by subsidizing cheap flood insurance.

huisjen
08-31-2005, 09:41 AM
Alan, I'm in complete agreement.

I do wonder what you mean by permanent roofs. Tile, sod, or slate? Metal (painted every decade or two)?

I've got a new (well, one year old now) 50 year shingle roof. The tabs weld themselves down well in summer heat, so at this point I don't think a hurricane would remove the roofing before removing the whole roof.

Dan

ahp
08-31-2005, 09:41 AM
I should add that that the New York Times has a big spread on New Orleans with diagrams and photos. It is now over yet.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-31-2005, 09:51 AM
Alan, that is an interesting comment on the levee system. Holland, the polder land areas of which are equally below sea level, is very different in that respect - it is very well subdivided.

However, I think that this may be a matter of historical accident.

Possibly, a better parallel is with the area of China adjacent to the Yellow River. Before the lower Yellow River effectively dried up, due to water extraction upstream, it was known as China's Sorrow, because of the regularity of catastrophic floods.

The Yellow River, like the Mississippi, (and I've seen both) is silt laden. The natural state of such a river is to spread itself over a wide flood plain; once it is embanked, the silt is deposited on its bed, and the apparent solution is to raise the levees. This soon becomes a vicious circle, because landowners will object to other dykes being constructed, and I think that the Corps of Engineers are probably only too well aware of the inevitability of what has happened.

In Holland, the polders were reclaimed piece by piece and the now land locked dykes were wisely retained to allow subdivision. That has not been possible in Louisiana.

Edited to add - the dry bed of the Yellow River is retained - as a flood spillway...

[ 08-31-2005, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

Tar Devil
08-31-2005, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Jack Heinlen:
Fun photo. I love the look on the left.What is the significant difference between the left and the right? Look pretty symetrical to me.

Later,

Phil

Billy Bones
08-31-2005, 10:26 AM
I wonder if the Mississippi should be left alone and allowed to seek its own course once again, and if so, I wonder if this would have any mitigating effect on the Gulf of Mexico vis-a-vis the horrendous water temps this season which fed Katrina?

Just wondering.

Alan D. Hyde
08-31-2005, 10:47 AM
Dan, by "permanent roofs" I mean good quality slate, tile, metal, stone, or some types of sod roof systems.

Not asphalt, which must be replaced every 20 years or so, or after some major storms.

If yours really does last fifty years, Dan, then more power to you! :D

Alan

SandMaster
08-31-2005, 11:17 AM
If more of those roofs had been slate or metal or soemthing other than asphalt I think they would be finding a lot more dead folks in the attic.

Alan D. Hyde
08-31-2005, 11:39 AM
Why do you say that?

Alan

huisjen
08-31-2005, 12:56 PM
I think Dutch, er, Sand Master Trash, means that many people retreated to their attics, only to have to kick through the roofs to escape. That's harder to do with a better roof.

Dan

Gary E
08-31-2005, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:
Dan, by "permanent roofs" I mean good quality slate, tile, metal, stone, or some types of sod roof systems.

Not asphalt, which must be replaced every 20 years or so, or after some major storms.

If yours really does last fifty years, Dan, then more power to you! :D

AlanYou really must be one of the few RICH folk who can afford a SLATE roof...
sheesh...

you ever been poor?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
08-31-2005, 01:05 PM
Should New Orleans be rebuilt?

Yes. But where?

LeeG
08-31-2005, 01:14 PM
another floor higher should do it.

Alan D. Hyde
08-31-2005, 01:19 PM
Gary, we have an asphalt roof, although in the past we've had one house with a tile roof, and another with slate. The slate house cost me $20,000 and the tile one $64,000. I WOULD prefer a permanent roof on our present house. :D

As far as breaking thru onto the roof from the attic, surprisingly enough it would be no harder with a permanent roof, and perhaps might be easier.

Permanent roofs may have stouter rafters, but the roof boards are often 1 x 6's spaced about an inch apart, so that the roof can "breathe." New asphalt roofs, in contrast, may use 5/8" or more plywood or chipboard--- possibly harder to knock thru with an axe...

Alan

[ 08-31-2005, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

Billy Bones
08-31-2005, 02:28 PM
Our bar joist roof was far cheaper in all ways, not least in the deduction on our windstorm insurance it brought about. It was something like $9/sf installed, to which add a couple of bucks a sf for the concrete slab on top of it.

http://www.waschmidt.com/images/bnb.gif

I don't think designing roofs around axe-borne egress considerations is very worthwhile.

SandMaster
08-31-2005, 03:14 PM
Dont you live on a hilltop billy?

Alan D. Hyde
08-31-2005, 04:37 PM
So, Billy, on top of that you have a rubber membrane roof?

Alan

Paul Denison
08-31-2005, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
Yet again, the USA raids the world's insurance market. Probable cost of insured losses, this time - US$ 20-26 billion.

Looking at the mess, each time a hurricane hits the US mainland, I am struck by the poor quality of construction. It all looks "third world".

No decent storm drains, electric power carried on overhead poles, obviously inadequate building codes.

It's pathetic.

Face it, you live in a hurricane zone. Learn to build properly.

And just wait for the whinges about US$3 per gallon gasoline to put in your SUV's.

I won't bother waiting for GWB to make the connection between the USA's use of 25% of the world's oil and the global warming that caused the severity of the storm.Have you forgotten WWII already? You shouldn't be trying to teach lessons on forward thinking and preparedness.

SandMaster
08-31-2005, 08:38 PM
bump

Peter Malcolm Jardine
08-31-2005, 08:41 PM
Have you forgotten WWII already? Huh? This one went right by me :confused: :confused:

Peter Malcolm Jardine
08-31-2005, 08:51 PM
New Orleans is sinking

bourbon blues on the street, loose and complete under skies all smokey blue-green i can't forsake a dixie dead-shake so we
danced the sidewalk clean my memory is muddy, what's this river that i'm in? new orleans is sinking man and i don't wanna
swim

colonel tom. what's wrong? what's going on? you can tie yourself up for a deal he said, "hey north you're south shut you big
mouth, you gotta do what you feel is real" ain't got no picture postcards, ain't got no souvenirs my baby, she don't know me
when I'm thinking bout those years

pale as a light bulb hanging on a wire sucking up to someone just to stoke the fire picking out the highlights of the scenery saw
a little cloud that looked a little like me

i had my hands in the river my feet back up on the banks looked up to the lord above and said, "hey man thanks" sometimes i
feel so good, i gotta scream she said gordie baby i know exactly what you mean she said, she said, i swear to god she said...

my memory is muddy what's this river that i'm in? new orleans is sinking mand and i don't wanna swim

The Tragically Hip

John Gearing
08-31-2005, 10:01 PM
Shang, that photo is hilarious. It immediately brought to mind a famous photo by the man known as "WeeGee" entitled "The Critic" .....

http://museum.icp.org/museum/collections/special/weegee/images/wg1-64.jpg

As for building codes, it bears remembering that they are MINIMUMS. You can always build better than code, you just can't build worse. Unfortunately the general public has it in their heads that building codes are maximums. But even so, mother nature is likely to win out eventually. Probably the strongest wooden structure in the US if not the world is the weather station atop Mt. Washington, N.H.. It held together during a storm that generated the highest recorded wind speed on the planet-- 232mph. The next gust blew the anemometer off the building! This building is anchored to solid rock with very heavy iron chains that (IIRC) go right over the roof. But who would want to have to live in a house built like that? As I understand it, in some tropical areas the houses are built in a very open fashion so that heavy winds pass through them rather than beat against them. But then folks who live in these "grass shacks" don't live the sort of material lives that we 21st century Americans do.

As for New Orleans, here is what Wikipedia has to say about it's siting below sea level:

Much of the city is located below sea level between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain, so the city is surrounded by levees. Until the early 20th century, construction was largely limited to the slightly higher ground along old natural river levees and bayous, since much of the rest of the land was swampy and subject to frequent flooding. This gave the 19th century city the shape of a crescent along a bend of the Mississippi, the origin of the nickname The Crescent City. In the 1910s engineer and inventor A. Baldwin Wood enacted his ambitious plan to drain the city, including large pumps of his own design which are still used. All rain water must be pumped up to the canals which drain into Lake Pontchartrain. Wood's pumps and drainage allowed the city to expand greatly in area. However, pumping of groundwater from underneath the city has resulted in subsidence. This has greatly increased the flood risk, should the levees be breached or precipitation be in excess of pumping capacity, as would later happen in 2005 in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. A major hurricane could create a lake in the central city as much as 30 feet deep, which could take months to pump dry.

So, it appears that we humans created a little time bomb in New Orleans. Because they decided to set up a pump system to pump rain water into Ponchartrain and to drain the swampy bayous (ie pump down the groundwater)-- also into Ponchartrain-- they had to build levees in order to artificially increase the lake's capacity. And since they were going then to build down onto the low ground, they would have had to levee the river as well.

I was going to say that I found it hard to believe that the danger of all of this pumping couldn't have been foreseen but then I realized how much money there was to be made from selling all this newly-drained land, and how much more from selling the new buildings put up there, etc. It was probably hailed as a health measure (getting rid of the swampy bayous with their deadly miasmas) but I would reckon if you checked the old newspapers, it would turn out that a fairly small number of men profited greatly by this pumping scheme. Human beings seem to be blessed (or perhaps cursed) with the urge to build and develop wherever they happen to be.

And yeah, we put men on the moon, etc but America, for good or ill, has a tremendous disparity between rich and poor. And it is the poor people, who have little choice in where they live and probably can't afford to hurricane-proof their houses (if they even own their own homes) with whom we can sympathize, ACB.

Paul Girouard
09-01-2005, 12:02 AM
I say we blame GWB for this , seems to be the general theme. What do Bob and PMJ think? Seems like he should have prepared better, right guys?

skuthorp
09-01-2005, 12:10 AM
Paul, the legal fraternity will be gearing up to blame someone, but it's just the old folly of man that he likes to fool himsel that he's in control. But George will do, he's got control of the cash!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-01-2005, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Have you forgotten WWII already? Huh? This one went right by me :confused: :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]Me too. :confused: :confused:

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-01-2005, 03:27 AM
John Gearing writes:


But who would want to have to live in a house built like that? As I understand it, in some tropical areas the houses are built in a very open fashion so that heavy winds pass through them rather than beat against them. But then folks who live in these "grass shacks" don't live the sort of material lives that we 21st century Americans do.
No "grass shacks", and plenty of material lives, here:
http://www.discoverhongkong.com/eng/touring/popular/images/ta_sigh_popk01.jpg

http://www.discoverhongkong.com/eng/touring/popular/images/ta_sigh_popk03.jpg
but this city withstands worse storms than "Katrina" with no trouble at all. You will notice that the trees are all quite small...that's because anything bigger gets uprooted, every few years.

There are plenty of poor people in Hong Kong - many much poorer than in New Orleans. But they all live in typhoon proof buildings.

[ 09-01-2005, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

martin schulz
09-01-2005, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by Hughman:
Maybe some third world countries will send relief crews and materials.....Actually that's what I thought. Not that I think the 3 world is able to offer any relief, but I have seen so much looting and chaos in New Oreleans that I had troubles to identify the US in those pictures.

Usually when there is a catastrophy in some 3 world country the conditions there are often presented with an arrogant air about it. You know - snotty remarks about looting gangs and the terrible unorganized chaos. Now the same chaos and disorder is taken place in the very place the world perceives as enlightened, civilized and prosperous centre of the world.

SandMaster
09-01-2005, 09:56 AM
I think this will be a major topic of debate in the days and weeks ahead.

I have already heard one estimate of 150 billion dollars to rebuild. Is it worth it? Is it doable considering our ongoing spending ? Can the american taxpayer shoulder this burden and the rising price of fuel and all the thing, the Iraq war without going into a major recession?

What will happen if we get another major hurricane on the east coast next month or god forbid a terrorist attack?

If nothing else its time to withdraw from Iraq.

George.
09-01-2005, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by brad9798:


Besides NO, St. Louis has the BIGGEST Mardi Gras in the world ... and we've no hurricane issues.

Excuse me, Brad, but you have heard of a little town called Rio de Janeiro, haven't you? ;)

Which has no hurricane issues either...

Gary E
09-01-2005, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by SandMaster:
I think this will be a major topic of debate in the days and weeks ahead.

I have already heard one estimate of 150 billion dollars to rebuild. Is it worth it? Is it doable considering our ongoing spending ? Can the american taxpayer shoulder this burden and the rising price of fuel and all the thing, the Iraq war without going into a major recession?

What will happen if we get another major hurricane on the east coast next month or god forbid a terrorist attack?

If nothing else its time to withdraw from Iraq.Why not?... If we stopped sending so many US TAXPAYERS $$$$$$ to other countries for awhile the US could take care of it's "homeland" and do the job right. But that would piss off all those forign countries that we suck up to..so dont hold your breath for this to happen...

SandMaster
09-01-2005, 11:45 AM
After seeing the most recent noews I wonder if we should ever let these people concentrate into one polulation center again. Maybe we ought to not build NO simply for that reason. Spread them far and wide. Or send em to Iraq where they can blend right in. This is a pitiful commentary on our society. :(

John Gearing
09-01-2005, 11:56 PM
ACB - If I am not mistaken the vast majority of housing in Hong Kong is comprised of huge modern high rise buildings. It's not at all clear to me that this would be a good solution for New Orleans. IIRC the topography of the two cities is quite different. As you will recall, N.O. sits in a bowl shaped depression. If it were filled with high rises and the levees failed, then I would envision hundreds of thousands of people trapped in high rise buildings with no power for the elevators, lights, etc. This could be a much worse situation than the one they have now. As for cities like Gulport and Biloxi, well, you have to remember that Americans have this thing for living in detached homes. I don't think many would choose to live in such a building if they could afford not to. Ditto New Orleans, which was distinguished by the plethora of 2-3 story buildings. It is just a completely different setting, a different way of life and a different culture than Hong Kong. From what I've seen of Hong Kong hi-rises they resemble human anthills and are ugly and depressing to look at. When I was apeaking about grass huts etc I was thinking of some of the traditional polynesian cultures, though I can see in retrospect how you could take it as a blanket statement about Asia. While we're at it, let's not forget to abuse the stupid gits who were behind the Great Fire of London. I mean, mankind has known that wood burns for only a million years or so, so how come they built all those wooden houses so close together and heated them with fireplaces and lit them with candles. Why didn't they build their houses out of stone? smile.gif

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-02-2005, 04:12 AM
John, I certainly agree that Hong Kong has different geological problems, in dealing with tropical storms and storm surges, from the geological problems of New Orleans, but they are not lesser problems, just different ones.

Hong Kong is built partly on reclaimed land and partly on rocky hillsides. The speed with which typhoon floodwater can accumulate and run off the mountainsides is awesome. The drainage systems are designed to cope. It is a much larger city than New Orleans, with a population of 6.25 million, but the population in 1945 was 250,000. The increase was mainly due to refugee arrivals in the 1950s and 1960s. These people were almost all re-housed by the Government.

My point is - it can be done.

If people want to live in badly constructed detached houses in hurricane areas then they can hardly complain when the wind blows their house down. My comments about US building codes stand - in both its public civil engineering, and in the quality of its private housing, the Southeastern United States seems, from the perspective of Typhoon Alley, somewhat inadequate, as witness the huge trails of devastation every few years.

I'm sorry to learn that Asia consists either of "grass huts" or "ugly and depressing human anthills", having lived in both, and gone through typhoons in both, over the years. An illuminating comment, which suggests that you feel that the USA has little to learn from foreigners. ;)

[ 09-02-2005, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]