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Joe (SoCal)
10-08-2004, 08:19 PM
Its ON

Joe (SoCal)
10-08-2004, 08:38 PM
Bush is TRYING to hard NOT to smirk ;)

Ross M
10-08-2004, 08:49 PM
Smirk or scoff? smile.gif

Think I am suffering debate fatigue...

Joe (SoCal)
10-08-2004, 08:52 PM
Ross I know what yer saying. This one is harder to define.

Bush appears to be very angry. But it a positive anger might play well. No slam dunks yet.

Ross M
10-08-2004, 08:55 PM
Though Kerry had him on the ropes regarding unguarded ammo dumps, particularly combined with the subsequent "backdoor draft" line.

But I did like the Presidents "long term solution" to terrorism.

Joe (SoCal)
10-08-2004, 08:58 PM
Draft retort was good. Its fun to see them both try the hooks each sides wants them to try.

Gary Lee
10-08-2004, 09:20 PM
John Kerry started rambling off topic fifteen minutes ago. This give him a grace period of ten minutes.

Joe (SoCal)
10-08-2004, 09:36 PM
Bush learned to take notes smile.gif

flatbottom
10-08-2004, 09:41 PM
Mr Bush is certainly doing better than the first debate but he appears uncomfortable. Kerry appears more at ease but he is acting a bit too smug.

Joe (SoCal)
10-08-2004, 09:44 PM
I agree with you Flat eeeeeek ;)

Jack Heinlen
10-08-2004, 09:50 PM
Best line: "I own a lumber company?"

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-08-2004, 09:56 PM
The President was more articulate, but still very one dimensional... ie the abortion issue.

Kerry is by far the more polished debater of the two, and it makes him appear deeper and more thoughtful than George Bush.

The President's stubbornness on Iraq is going to bury him I think. He wouldn't even admit a mistake to the one woman who questioned him.

Despite the better efforts of President Bush, this debate was clearly Kerry's ... again. If anything his answers got tighter and more clear.

Jim H
10-08-2004, 10:03 PM
Kerry's maybe because he looked more comfortable, but he had drek for substance. "I have a plan" then nothing, no substance to the plan not even a hint. Earlier today Kerry said he had a plan for Iraq but he wouldn't reveal it because he said he wouldn't know what he had to do until he was President.

Oh well, he'll get 43% of the people to vote for him.

Bruce G
10-08-2004, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
Bush is TRYING to hard NOT to smirk ;) I think that you too would try not to smirk while listening to someone lie through his liberal teeth ;)

This debate did not help Kerry at all. Bush clearly was IN his element. He utilized Kerry's tarnished record in such a way so as to show the American people that Kerry is trying to change his stripes mid-stream, just like Gore tried to do 4 years ago. Jane Kerry's ;) record shows the American people what he stands for~ hell, he wasn't voted the most liberal for nothing :rolleyes:

Gary E
10-08-2004, 10:05 PM
Fact is that Bush did report income from a ownership in a lumber co on his tax return, so looks like Kerry was correct.

That ought to make some woodboats owners happy

[ 10-08-2004, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-08-2004, 10:08 PM
I didn't need to hear from Texas to know their response, but I will be very interested in the instant polls. I predict Kerry will be pulling ahead nationally by a slight margin in the next week.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-08-2004, 10:17 PM
Yoicks... The CNN instant poll says 2nd debate decisively Kerry's.........83% to 16%... wow.

Bruce G
10-08-2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
I didn't need to hear from Texas to know their response, but I will be very interested in the instant polls. I predict Kerry will be pulling ahead nationally by a slight margin in the next week.Gee we didn't need to hear from our local socialist to know what he is wishing for.

BTW PMJ: did you happen to notice your boy stuttering more in this debate? Did you happen to notice when he didn't answer the questions being asked of him? Looks like this time he only came with 30 minutes of material. I mean come on~ he has been steadfast with his ideals. Give us a break!

Oh- thanks PMJ for you update... I know we couldn't have made it through the night without it ;) tongue.gif

km gresham
10-08-2004, 10:21 PM
My impression - a decent debate. The crowd was held in check - no overt expressions of approval or disapproval. No noise from the audience. Very civilized.

Kerry was Kerry. Bush did much better in this one than the last.

The MSM will declare Kerry the winner as it declared Gore in 3 debates. I said earlier that I will go ahead and declare Kerry the winner in all 3 debates.
;)

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-08-2004, 10:22 PM
I don't think I insulted your President, or even suggested an insult. I tried to be objective, even in the face of not liking your current President. The poll results are simply facts, which again are open to interpretation. However, President Bush according to all the national polls has been steadily losing ground. I won't say I wouldn't be happier to see him lose the election because I would. That doesn't change the facts.

Based on campaign momentum, I am willing to go out on a limb and say Kerry is President by a hair. Six weeks ago I would not have said that to be the case. Four weeks ago, it was the President's election to lose. He's losing it, not through personal performance, but through overall performance of his administration. (Just my opinion of course)

[ 10-08-2004, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm Jardine ]

LeeG
10-08-2004, 11:45 PM
Jeff,,your trip sounds good.

yorgie
10-09-2004, 01:37 AM
Jeff,I couldn't agree more.Plus you took my mind off politicians and our Austin Marina rustbucket submarines.I can just picture the leaves changing colour as you drive over a misty mountain pass.

Thanks,Chris.

George.
10-09-2004, 05:43 AM
I thought Bush did much better - didn't stammer so much, for one thing - and Kerry was weak. Kerry exudes a lack of conviction - he just has "politician" written all over him, and is so worried about stepping on any toes that he repeatedly misses opportunities to make strong and effective statements.

Only on the abortion question, which was tough, did he come across as having convictions in the face of opposition.

I can understand why so many people don't trust him. Not that Bush is trustworthy, based on his actual record, but most people can't understand the issues, and so just look for someone they think they can trust to do it for them - and Kerry comes accross as a professional fence-sitter.

Scott Rosen
10-09-2004, 07:12 AM
Who won?

The Yankees, 8 to 4.

I like watching a contest in which everyone can agree who won and who lost.

I especially like it when my team wins.

bottompaint
10-09-2004, 07:13 AM
Kerry wins the "Waffling with distinction" award! :D

Russell Sova
10-09-2004, 07:34 AM
Bush won.....hands down. The one about not being popular with the Europeans about Iraq like Reagan wasn't popular with Europeans about the cold war era missles that ended in our winning the cold war. The one about the stock market bubble bursting 6 months prior to Bush comimg to office. The one about the last recession being one of the shallowest in history. The 1$billion dollar amount already spent on hydrogen power research. Clean coal technology discussed. The one about small business owners, those doing most of the hiring, paying taxes on individual tax returns and thus being hurt by the Kerry tax plan. Bush being more light hearted and friendly and down right funny a couple times.
Kerry admitting some of his plans would have to be scaled back. Kerry stuttering. Kerry not answering a direct question until he looked into the camera to say he wouldn't do what he's famous for in congress, i.e., raise taxes. Kerry looking befuddled and blown away at times when Bush was making good points.

Mrleft8
10-09-2004, 08:46 AM
Russel, you forgot the bit where Bush was asked point blank to name 3 mistakes he has made.

Nightmoves
10-09-2004, 08:53 AM
Mrleftout, I doubt the mistakes W thinks he made (and you don't have the need to know) are the same ones you think he made. Liberals. :rolleyes:

In fact, being liberal is a mistake. :D

High C
10-09-2004, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Mrleft8:
Russel, you forgot the bit where Bush was asked point blank to name 3 mistakes he has made.I can name three:

1) Pussyfooting around with Congressional Democrats whom he should've crushed like underdeveloped grapes (the new tone).
2) Wasting 14 months seeking UN approval before going into Iraq.
3) Moving too slowly on tax reform (see #1).

What did you have in mind?

Bob Smalser
10-09-2004, 10:09 AM
The President's stubbornness on Iraq is going to bury him I think. He wouldn't even admit a mistake to the one woman who questioned him.
If you want Bush gone, your basic problem is that as much as I think he's screwed the pooch on so many things...

...there's no way in Hades I'm gonna vote for a Jane Fonda Think-Alike and his ambulance chasing buddy...

...and I ain't alone.

Lieberman woulda had my vote in a heartbeat....so may have Clark.

[ 10-09-2004, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

Cuyahoga Chuck
10-09-2004, 11:25 AM
Russell, I think you are right. Bush was really steadfast. But so was Franz Joseph and Kaiser Bill.
Remember, your namesake is the "owl" who is noted for being wise. Like Franz Joseph and Kaiser Bill you are not. Ohio is going Democratic this time. The half milliom jobs that went poof means that there are a lot of discontented folks among the rabid downstate Republicans.
When Kerry is elected I beg you, don't jump off the 422 bridge. The drop is only about 8' and you'll disturb the fish.
Do videnia krajan.
Charlie

Mark Van
10-09-2004, 11:53 AM
Km Gresham, you were wrong. CNN latest poll shows the debate a tie. That is very good news for Bush.

km gresham
10-09-2004, 11:58 AM
I was much more pleased with the President's performance in this 2nd debate. He was definately "on" this time. He has a strong message and when he's intent on getting it across in no uncertain terms he's quite persuasive. My favorite thing about him is that you don't have to guess what he means, or if he's still going to mean it tomorrow or next week.

3 mistakes? I agree fully with High C.

JimD
10-09-2004, 12:27 PM
The waffler v the flip flopper. Sounds more like a cook off than a debate.

Kev Smyth
10-09-2004, 12:34 PM
Yep- Bush is back, and he's on fire! :D

huisjen
10-09-2004, 12:50 PM
On fire? gasoline and a match? Or just flailing about that way?

Dan

True Love
10-09-2004, 04:30 PM
High C said it well. Way to go, bro. AND... GO BUSH/CHENEY!!!

km gresham
10-09-2004, 05:27 PM
I liked seeing Kerry getting twisted up in knots over the stem cell research using embryos. It took him a while and a couple of times while he spoke he literally took steps backwards - in body language, I'm sure that means something. But he REALLY respected the woman's feelings on the issue, but it is a "complicated" issue. (I'm sure too "complicated" for her little brain).

Then President Bush stated clearly and concisely "I don't believe you destroy life. There are other ways to do this that don't destroy life". That's his stand. Nothing complicated or nuanced. Like it or not, he's not trying to please everyone.

George.
10-09-2004, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by km gresham:
....life. That's his stand. Nothing complicated or nuanced. Unfortunately, life is both.

km gresham
10-09-2004, 06:17 PM
Death is neither.

Russell Sova
10-09-2004, 06:19 PM
Chuck, I'm glad you posted a response. You know, liberals are supposed to be compassionate to everyone's needs. You and all the other liberals on this forum, and everywhere else I've heard them, prove what a lie that is.

LeeG
10-09-2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by km gresham:
Death is neither.are you speaking of the death of frozen cells?

What does the pill do,,doesn't it allow a fertilized egg to not implant on the uterine wall?

Do sperm cells cry?

But back to words and meaning. The word death could be in simple block type. It could be written in a beautiful and dignified font. Simple or nuanced. Oh you mean the actual event. Finito, the end. Yes,,it is. But now we can talk about IT. I hear some believe in an afterlife,,that's kind of nuanced. I like the finality of death. Some believe in reincarnation,,not very nuanced but entertaining.
A lonely solitary death strikes one very differently than a hospital scene,,or a random event at any point in "life".
Neither complicated or nuanced. How do you chose toothpaste?

imported_Dutch
10-09-2004, 06:50 PM
or as gw would say it


rarely is the question asked, Do sperm cells cry?

imported_Dutch
10-09-2004, 06:52 PM
Then President Bush stated clearly and concisely "I don't believe you destroy life. There are other ways to do this that don't destroy life". That's his stand. Nothing complicated or nuanced. Like it or not, he's not trying to please everyone meanwhile some 10,000 innocent iraqi civilians later

Kev Smyth
10-09-2004, 06:54 PM
Lee- you've finally become a paraody of yourself. Amazing. :eek: :rolleyes: :(

km gresham
10-09-2004, 06:55 PM
I thought he did a remarkably good job of sounding like Kerry did last night. Its all about the nuance. ;) smile.gif

[ 10-09-2004, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

Russell Sova
10-09-2004, 07:00 PM
Karen, that was a funny response. It probably went right over his head.

km gresham
10-09-2004, 07:06 PM
Both were equally confusing. Why doesn't Kerry just say "I believe abortion is fine and there's no good reason not to use embryos for research"?

It's what he thinks and believes, so just say it. President Bush just said what he thinks and believes on the issue. No matter who disagrees.

imported_Dutch
10-09-2004, 07:11 PM
right ;)

Bruce G
10-09-2004, 08:09 PM
http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/kerrys_global_test_kit.jpg

imported_Dutch
10-09-2004, 08:49 PM
says km
Then President Bush stated clearly and concisely "I don't believe you destroy life. There are other ways to do this that don't destroy life". That's his stand. Nothing complicated or nuanced. Like it or not, he's not trying to please everyone. Although he said he was anguished by the decision, in an interview in Talk magazine, writer Tucker Carlson described Bush mimicking the woman's final plea for her life. "'Please,' Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, 'don't kill me.'"
- Time Magazine

[ 10-09-2004, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Dutch ]

km gresham
10-09-2004, 09:14 PM
For those who may be confused, the issue is about innocent life. Murderers aren't innocent.

Bruce :D Those things are on the market already?!

[ 10-09-2004, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

LeeG
10-09-2004, 10:18 PM
why can't innocent life be collateral damage? If you're on the pill,,collateral damage to an innocent ovum. Extra fertilized eggs from invitro that would go down the drain,,get recycled into benificial spin-offs. Kind of like going to the moon to make Tang.

imported_Dutch
10-09-2004, 10:20 PM
Murderers aren't innocent it turns out some of em are

take this one for instance

Freed death row inmate lashes Bush
October 9, 2004


Houston: Ernest Willis, the eighth inmate to be exonerated and freed from death row in Texas, touched his wife for the first time and promptly criticised the US President, George Bush, for not caring about his innocence.

Mr Willis, 59, was released on Wednesday after a court ruled he had received an unfair trial and probably did not start a fire that killed two young women in 1986.

Mr Willis told reporters he was "not the least bit" angry at the loss of 17 years of freedom, although he said he had lost faith in US justice. "There were a lot of people who knew I was innocent and didn't care, and one of those is running the country right now," he said.

Mr Bush was one of four people who served as Texas governor while Mr Willis was on death row.

However, a governor's individual powers to commute a sentence are limited under Texas law. The governor can issue a temporary 30-day stay only when an execution is imminent, which never happened to Mr Willis.

The courts eventually accepted Mr Willis's argument that he was drugged during his trial, received ineffective counsel and that prosecutors withheld a psychological report saying he was not a danger to society, a key test under Texas law in determining a death sentence.

Mr Willis said he was fed up with Texas. "You don't have to worry about me ever coming back here. If I'm in an airplane, you don't have to worry about me flying over this thing."

Mr Willis celebrated his fourth wedding anniversary on Wednesday. He met his wife, Verilyn, through her brother, a death-row inmate who was executed in 2000. The couple married nine days after Verilyn's brother was executed. Until this week, they had always been separated by a window in the death-row visitation area.

"It was the first time we had ever touched," Verilyn Willis said of their meeting this week

[ 10-09-2004, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Dutch ]

LeeG
10-10-2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by km gresham:
For those who may be confused, the issue is about innocent life. Murderers aren't innocent.

Bruce :D Those things are on the market already?!well Karen,,as long as the killing is legal they aren't murderers. We've liberated about 15,000 Iraqis from their earthly existance to make them free. It's legal. Liberating a few cells from a petri dish for science does't sound as traumatic to the community of homo sapiens.
Do pro-life women who use the pill mourn after coitus? Do pro-life men?

imported_Dutch
10-10-2004, 08:23 AM
its a dumb argument with no way for km or gw to justify it lee

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-10-2004, 08:33 AM
Then President Bush stated clearly and concisely "I don't believe you destroy life" Indeed? He's destroyed more innocent lives than most people; Osama bin Laden included. But few of them were Americans, so it doesn't count.

Un - ******* - believable.

High C
10-10-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by LeeG:
...We've liberated about 15,000 Iraqis from their earthly existance...Wow, that number has increased 50% just in the course of this thread. :eek: Those of you who pretend to know how many Iraiqs have died in the war should get together on your story if you want anyone to believe your claims.

imported_Dutch
10-10-2004, 03:03 PM
yer right high. no innocents have died. guilty by birth. kill em all

Nightmoves
10-10-2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Then President Bush stated clearly and concisely "I don't believe you destroy life" Indeed? He's destroyed more innocent lives than most people; Osama bin Laden included. But few of them were Americans, so it doesn't count.

Un - ******* - believable.</font>[/QUOTE]:rolleyes:

You need to stick to sailing (I understand you know something about that) and leave America to make her decisions on how to defend herself. Frankly, I'm more than a little tired of your anti-American comments. Your ability to sail doesn't give you the 'privilege' of hammering America.

Pacifist.

LeeG
10-10-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by High C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LeeG:
...We've liberated about 15,000 Iraqis from their earthly existance...Wow, that number has increased 50% just in the course of this thread. :eek: Those of you who pretend to know how many Iraiqs have died in the war should get together on your story if you want anyone to believe your claims.</font>[/QUOTE]High,,do you know how many Iraqi soldiers died for us to liberate them from Saddam? I don't so maybe you could search that out. I'm still not sure if it's contained in the 15,000 or not. I know these numbers are immaterial to you but if you truly believe words like freedom and security mean anything then it does require knowing the enemy and the people you are attempting to liberate and what THEIR sacrifice is.
How much are you willing to sacrifice to bring security to Iraq?

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/

LeeG
10-10-2004, 03:25 PM
Stan, you should stick to hunting or driving your Lexus because you are the worst ambassador for a thinking American I'd want to see in words.

High C
10-10-2004, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by LeeG:
Stan....you are the worst ambassador for a thinking American I'd want to see in words.:D And this from our greatest wordsmith! :D

imported_Dutch
10-10-2004, 04:12 PM
and this from fearless leader


gw - ''I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe.. I believe what I believe is right." - 7/22/01

Nightmoves
10-10-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by LeeG:
Stan, you should stick to hunting or driving your Lexus because you are the worst ambassador for a thinking American I'd want to see in words.Maybe I souldn't have recommended the Midol suppository....they may be a little strong for you.

George.
10-10-2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Stan:
:rolleyes:

You need to stick to sailing (I understand you know something about that) and leave America to make her decisions on how to defend herself.

Pacifist.And you, sir, appear to understand nothing about sailing, or America. Just 'cause you are a Texan doesn't give you the right to knock everyone else. I, and many more, grow tired of your redneck xenophobia, which as of late has been extended even to Maine, if not all of New England. Like it or not, WoodenBoat is a worldwide magazine, this is a global forum, and if you can't take it, go back to your provincial talk radio.

[ 10-10-2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: George. ]

Nightmoves
10-10-2004, 04:37 PM
Well, Dot...speaking to Wooden boats on the boat threads is fine, I never complain about that.

But, I'm tired of the American bashing from you overseas pukes.

Boomkin Joe
10-10-2004, 04:50 PM
Go George. go!

George.
10-10-2004, 06:05 PM
We don't bash America. We bash those who are spoiling America. And if you don't like overseas pukes, then stop puking overseas. Be a real isolationist, and support not meddling overseas. Otherwise, put up or shut up.

LeeG
10-10-2004, 06:30 PM
High,,you're right, my manner is awkward sometimes but you certainly don't think Stans adolescent insults is something you'd like to have as representing American values would you?

Nightmoves
10-10-2004, 06:46 PM
Dottie: Otherwise, put up or shut up.

We have put up....I thought that's why you've been puking?

High C
10-10-2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by LeeG:
High,,you're right, my manner is awkward sometimes but you certainly don't think Stans adolescent insults is something you'd like to have as representing American values would you?No, Stan's style is not my own, though I do appreciate the sense of humor he used to put on display here. Banishment doesn't seem to sit well with him. The obvious double standard under which he suffers has no doubt darkened his outlook. There are others who remain who continue to cause more trouble than Stan ever did, though we haven't heard from one of them in a few days.

Nightmoves
10-10-2004, 08:12 PM
Stan doesn't appreciate those that would put their political agendas (power) ahead of the countries priorities...and right now the priority is defense.

Stan doesn't care what non-Americans think.

Stan e-mailed asking me to tell you this. :D

km gresham
10-10-2004, 08:17 PM
;) smile.gif

LeeG
10-10-2004, 08:30 PM
Stan, political agendas are how people express their power. GW has a political agenda,,Kerry has a political agenda. In the case of Cheneys war it was a political agenda to put the most effective force into Iraq in the shortest time possible using the most optomistic assumptions and avoiding contradictory analysis. The Whitehouse agenda is rife with pride and politics.
What was GWs acknowledgment of mistakes? "I might have hired the wrong people"
Pride before the fall.

LeeG
10-10-2004, 08:31 PM
;) smile.gif

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-10-2004, 08:34 PM
Sadly, when people like Nightmoves start to engage people in threads like this, any chance for reasonable and polite debate goes out the window. This is exactly what this kind of person wants, since this is how they operate, thinking it is debate. There is no point in replying to them about their obvious bad manners and lack of civility. They don't care, and never will. This is similiar to the kind of foreign policy they support.... don't know, won't know, can't know, don't care. They are entitled to their opinion. ;)

Nightmoves
10-10-2004, 08:37 PM
Er, Stan says to tell you he absolutely doesn't care what Canadians think. (he classifies them as something other than non-American)

;) ;)

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
10-10-2004, 08:46 PM
Get a grip Stan.
This isn't the 70's and you're not Archie Bunker.

http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/58/75/12m.jpg

[ 10-10-2004, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Know It All ]

alteran
10-10-2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Know It All:
Get a grip Stan.
This isn't the 70's and you're not Archie Bunker.And you're no Hubert Humphrey.

High C
10-10-2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by LeeG:
..Kerry has a political agenda...You really think so? ;) :D

[ 10-10-2004, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: High C ]

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
10-10-2004, 09:00 PM
Me and my shadow.....Al the echo. :D

LeeG
10-10-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by High C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LeeG:
...We've liberated about 15,000 Iraqis from their earthly existance...Wow, that number has increased 50% just in the course of this thread. :eek: Those of you who pretend to know how many Iraiqs have died in the war should get together on your story if you want anyone to believe your claims.</font>[/QUOTE]High, any thoughts on the 15,000 number? I found an estimate for Iraqi soldiers killed around 5,000.

Any thoughts on which ones of the 20,000 are terrists?

Alan D. Hyde
10-11-2004, 10:51 AM
A man whose living has been made entirely with his tongue... Saying what he really thinks?

That's a quick way for a gigolo to lose his job.

"Yes, Teresa, that Botox makes you look thirty again! My, my. I think I'll try some on myself." :D

Alan

[ 10-11-2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

km gresham
10-11-2004, 11:53 AM
:D Didn't work for either of them. I thought he was on to something with the orange skin tone, though. ;)

Alan D. Hyde
10-11-2004, 01:52 PM
Some claim that the part of Teresa is played by Dustin Hoffman. :D

I'm uninterested in knowing whether or not this is so.

I'll leave John's problems to John.

Alan

km gresham
10-11-2004, 01:54 PM
She really does resemble Tootsie. smile.gif

imported_Dutch
10-11-2004, 04:01 PM
:rolleyes: id take the persona of tootsie over some women ;)

km gresham
10-11-2004, 06:27 PM
Tootsie was smarter, though.