Folkboat restoration

[Tasybear]

I mentioned the folkboat (Beashel built 1967 in Sydney) I am restoring, in an earlier post on fuel tank location.
I have slipped her for the first time and after a thorough going over found her to be in excellent condition...but after poking about I find
she is not mahogany planked clinker, she is mahagony ply 'planked' as clinker (lapstrake)
This explains her excellent watertightness and absence of split strakes. Now of course I have an entirely different set of considerations...primarily to ensure the ply lamination is kept impermeable to fresh water, particularly at edges.
I have found that the top plank, on starboard quarter has rot in it and I will be replacing that section.
Also I will be removing as much paint as I can from topsides in order to seal bare wood with Everdure before priming and painting.
I have read in wooden boat magazine and on this forum about the antifungal properties of glycol (antifreeze).
Is it a good idea to apply glycol to all exposed ply before sealing with everdure?
Any other comments regarding preeserving this hull are welcome.

cheers Malcolm

[John R Smith]

Malcolm

very interesting, I must admit I have never come across a ply Folkboat before, but of course there is no reason why not. I take it that yours is copper riveted onto hardwood ribs in the usual fashion, not glued?

As you say, the main concern here is to seal the plank edges so that water cannot penetrate the end grain - this is the main weakness of using ply for conventional planking, rather than as panels. Having said that, it sounds as if it has done fine up to now.

Presumably, in the past paint has done the sealing. Your choice now is to use something a bit more potent before painting, once you are back to the wood. Having tried it myself, I have to say that I am converted and would recommend CPES for the job, before you prime. But it will be messy and tricky, because CPES is very thin and you need it to run uphill against gravity (not easy to turn a Folkboat upside down!). For those who will now say that Smith is a turncoat and used to say "Epoxy is Crap", fair enough. We all live and learn ;)

Personally, I would not use glycol in this situation, because I reckon that CPES kills any bugs that might be around just as effectively.

I love Folkboats, by the way, and have a good friend with one. I dunno, there is just something about clinker . . .

As Ian Mc would say, G'luck

John

[Tasybear]

'.....yours is copper riveted onto hardwood ribs in the usual fashion, not glued?

Yes this is correct John.

And yes, a few of us were a bit surprised to discover she was ply...mixed responses too ranging from; '... oh what a shame mal ...not the traditional craft you thought you had' to 'Well thats cool..she will be a strong little boat!, no wonder she is in such good shape'!
The latter I agree with, as for 'traditional' ...I guess we have stumbled on a 40 year old tradition of ply clinker folkboat building in Sydney!

Beashel is a boatbuilding family name highly respected in Australia. And the quality of the workmanship certainly justifies the reputation..as does the condition of the boat after 40 years!
The damaged plank appears to be a consequence of a collision with a jetty pile , fracturing the plank and rub rail..stressing the deck/cockpit coaming join (I think) enough to allow rainwater penetration over some years..the rot of course has just spread along the laminate in the plank.

'....recommend CPES for the job, before you prime. ....For those who will now say that Smith is a turncoat and used to say "Epoxy is Crap", fair enough. We all live and learn..

I will just commend your open mindedness smile.gif

'I dunno, there is just something about clinker .

Yep there sure is

thnx for input

[Peter Jacobs]

This is intersting ... a plywood folkboat ... one step away from glued lapstrake tongue.gif

I just heard back from Iain Oughtred, and he says the glued lapstrake folkboat he mentions in his book was built in Sydney Australia in the late 50's. I wonder if it's a relative of your boat?

I know, I know ... I just can't leave it alone ;)

[Tasybear]

I just heard back from Iain Oughtred, and he says the glued lapstrake folkboat he mentions in his book was built in Sydney Australia in the late 50's. I wonder if it's a relative of your boat?

I dont know about Iain Oughtred or his book ... but I am burning with curiosity ... does he mention 'Beashel' as a builder of folkboats?.
I will have to start digging around ... and asking questions of the old old timers around the slip!

[ishmael]

This isn't completely on topic, but two of the pioneers of this type of construction were American manufacturers Chris Craft and Lyman. It was used in their round bottomed power skiffs from the fifties up through the seventies. Interesting to find a Folkboat built so. Also that there is a prejudice against the technique in some folks minds.

The Lymans and Chris Crafts were an early form of glued lap ply in that the laps were filled with a polysulphide adhesive, whilst retaining their bent frames. I suspect your boat is of similar build, and in my experience it is an excellent technique. Light and strong, dry and long lasting. It will only be helped by better sealing the edges of the ply.

CPES certainly has a great reputation, and now that John has been converted all conscience is assuaged. ;)

Best of luck,

Jack

[Tasybear]

Jack
Bit of confusion here ...my boat is not glued in the laps just copper roved mahogant ply clinker construction. The glued lapstrake folkboat was a passing reference by John to another folkboat mentioned in Iain Outred's book.

thnx for input tho smile.gif

[Peter Jacobs]

Malcolm: Do you know the thickness of the plywood used in your Folkboat's construction. I'd be very interested to know!

Thanks

-Peter-

[ishmael]

Hi Tasybear,

I'm curious now. I'd be suprised if there were nothing in the laps, as the watertight-ness of a traditionally planked clinker boat depends upon the wood swelling along the lap. Plywood doesn't move much, yet you say your boat is tight.

Keep us informed.

[Wild Wassa]

Tasybear, one thing that's an Aussie trait is our boatbuilders don't refer to the ply as a veneered ply. They refer to veneered ply as one type of wood only.

One of the blokes who built my boat only refers to her as a Coachwood boat. There are solid pieces of Coachwood in here (a lot) but she is still only a Coachwood veneer.

I would have thought that they would be more accurate.

Warren.

[ 02-01-2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Tasybear]

The plywood planking on my folkboat is half inch mahagony marine ply.
I confess ignorance of 'veneered' ply or 'coachwood'. There does appear to be a thin veneer on the outside (not sure about inside) will investigate further tomorrow when I scrape and sand the transom and strake ends.
I guess she could be glued or some gloop between the laps ...cant be sure , but there is no sign of it ... certainly not on the top strake I am removing.
It would seem counter productive, if not courting disaster, to clinker build with copper roves in the tradional way... with glue?
The damaged plank I am replacing has had considerable previous attention (including a veneer glued over the entire length.) All the other planks appear to be original and in good condition.
She is very tight and showing no sign of opening up after 4 days in the sun.

[Tasybear]

Oops sorry Peter...I meant 'Peter' when I said 'John' had made a 'passing reference to Iain Oustred's book'post 02-01-2003 08:48 AM
Shouldnt post after a long day paint-scraping in the sun! :rolleyes:

[Peter Jacobs]

No problem, Malcolm.
1/2 inch planking. That's interesting. The original Folkboat specs called for a minimum of 15mm (about 5/8"), but that was in solid wood.
As someone mentioned in a previous thread on glued lapstrake : 5/8" would seem a bit heavy.

Keep us posted with your findings. I'm very interested to know about your boat as you make more discoveries. I'm very curious as to whether or not there is some kind of sealer between the laps.

-Peter-

[John R Smith]

Mal

having just read the replies since we last chatted, there are a couple of points or three that I would like to add -

* I think I would be more concerned about water penetration on the INSIDE of the hull at the strake laps, because they form little ledges where water can rest and get into the end-grain of the ply, rather than falling clear as water does on the outside of a clinker hull. However, your climate may not be as damp as Cornwall, so you may not experience the horrendous condensation that we do.

* On a solid-wood clinker hull, the rolling bevel is planed into the strake with the grain. In ply, the bevel tends to tear across the grain and leaves the strake vulnerable to water ingress and later rot. In glued ply construction, the epoxy fills this exposed end grain as well as keeping the joint tight. So my concern with roved ply construction (with no glue) would be that I had water penetration on the lands where I could not see it.

* My plan of action would be to strip all of the paint very carefully, then saturate the planking with CPES starting from the top of the hull and working downwards. Using a brush, I would keep soaking CPES into the lands until the wood can absorb no more. Please note - I found the stuff had a very bad effect on MY strakes when I breathed it in. Use a fume mask at all times!

Just my two penn'orth ;)

John

[Tasybear]

Peter ... definitely no glue only red lead primer, therefore I assume that the the swelling of the swelling if the planks is doing the job as it should with roved laps.
One old timer claims that the mahogany ply used is a high quality (Lloyds approvd) dutch product called 'Bruynzeel' was commonly used in the 60s for clinker construction (at least in Sydney). He said that the laps will be glued using 'Resorcinol'. (no sign of that)
Good thinking John, however the inside of the boat is pristine, dry and well painted I am treating all edges on the outside as you confirmed, using Everdure.
I have treated the both sides and the edges of the replacement plank, to be fitted tomorrow.

[Tasybear]

The folkboat on the slip at Kettering, Tasmania.Primer coat started today. 'softly, softly catchee monkey!'

http://platter.wombatinteractive.com/galleries/MalcolmThain/BoatRepair2.jpg

[Tasybear]

Sorry image error .. try this:

http://platter.wombatinteractive.com/galleries/MalcolmThain/BoatRepair3.jpg

[Noah]

HMMM, where have I seen that before...

Oh Yeah... http://www.morebutter.com/folkboatimages/patience/images/starboardsidewoodedtopside.jpg

Good luck to you. I haven't really had anything to ad to this post, but if you have any questions please feel free to ask.

Noah

[Peter Jacobs]

Nice picture, Malcolm!
Ah yes ... those sleek lines make me swoon, even in the "ugly" primer stage. Yup, the plywood boat is just as pretty as the solid wood boat smile.gif And just think ... nobody knew the difference for all those years!

From shear to garboard, how many strakes does she have? It looks like about 15 or 16, which means the builder stuck with the specs the original plans called for.

Also, your forestay is attached to the stem. My plans show the forestay attached about 18" aft of the stem. It's interesting to see the variations. I wonder if the mast is stepped in the "stock" location?
-Peter-

[ 02-08-2003, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Peter Jacobs ]

[Wild Dingo]

Just wanted to add my own 2 bobs worth here...

Goodonyer Malcolm! :cool: ... shes gonna be a ripper when your finished mate keep us tuned in will you? ;)

Noah is that one yours?

Oh love the old shortwheel base landy in the background!! Mk2? great vehicles! probably not yours but what the heck I love them old things! :cool:

[ishmael]

It's no wonder Folkboats are enduring. What a special little slice of boat.

[Tasybear]

Noah
Yes I thought of you and yours when I took the photo smile.gif

She is built to spec Peter. The forestay is not original..but the original strong points for the traditional fractional rig are still present and useable. Whoever installed the furler must have had that in mind too? The mast is correctly placed.

Shane Yep thats my Series IIA LandRover

I hope to do a decent job on this little folkboat...you can rest assured the salts at the slip are keeping me 'well advised'!!! :eek:

Thanks for the good wishes all

[Ken Baker]

Malcolm,

Looks like a bit of work and you'll be back in the water. Nice job!

Here's a few shots of what you can look forward to.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p002f3cbed414eee0efc52b90aa4b39cd/fcab1f54.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/paefc3c9df4ce3c7a183dbb4c50af4d69/fcab1f13.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/paae869c5c2a12b8d9b14e102b848cafc/fcab1ef8.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid49/pcbd5b85e5516adf7e0e44c650fa384e8/fcb1d20c.jpg

[Peter Jacobs]

Ken:
Beautiful boat !!
Can you tell us a bit about it?

-Peter-

[Tasybear]

What a beautiful folkboat!
I dont think I can match that. My 'rescue' effort is more of a 'workmanlike' job.
I would like to know what she was like before restoration...she was restored? ... or is she a very well kept boat? She looks immaculate.

[Scott Rosen]

Ken,

Beautiful boat and photos. Those are just what the doctor ordered on this cold, bleak February New England day.

[Ken Baker]

Amazing what a couple coats of paint and varnish will do, eh?

Overall, the previous owners (four of them I think) took reasonably good care of her. But, being built in 1955, she had the usual Folkboat ailments of iron sick floors, broken frames and keel bolts long over due for replacement when these pictures were taken.

I was able to sail her for a couple seasons before I decided it was time to fix what was needed. As life sometimes does, I was thrown a curve and had to leave her in Maine in storage where she remains today. A year after leaving, I lost the mast in fire at the boat yard I was storing it at (the hull was elsewhere!). Finally last fall I was able to locate a reasonably priced replacement mast so things are heading back in the right direction.

I uploaded a bunch of pics. They are not in any particular chronological order as yet but they'll give you an idea of the work that was done. As with any wooden boat, there's still plenty to do!

Enjoy.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290697257

[Peter Jacobs]

"Amazing what a couple coats of paint and varnish will do, eh? "
Yeah, right! and a gazillion hours of hard work ... a major rebuild all round.
Great photo's, Ken. I looked at them all, and saved a few for the construction details shown. She's a real beauty.

-Peter-

[Tasybear]

Hull painted...and she is snug in her berth smile.gif http://platter.wombatinteractive.com/galleries/MalcolmThain/Finished-hull.jpg

[Noah]

Well done!

She is starting to look shipshape! Good job, and I'm always glad to see a Folkboat get put back into action. They are wonderful boats.

Now varnish that deck house... smile.gif

I can only say that because I still don't have a decent coat of varnish on mine after two years, and last year the windos we saran wrap. (which worked really well, but we don't need to talk about that...)

Noah

[WWheeler]

Ken:

Looked at your pics, and I noticed that you were able to "magically" get the boat + cradle on and off a flatbed trailer. How did you do it? Do you have a crane lurking out of camera range, or do you have a simpler solution?

[Noah]

I don't know how Ken pulled it off, but I have found that Crisco is the answer for getting my Folkboat on and off a flatbed trailer.

Somewhere there is a post where I talked about sliding my folkboat using a 2 ton winch and a couple of 2X6's. It works pretty well once you get the cradle slippery.

Noah

[Ken Baker]

Looks great Malcolm!

Will - It is a bit confusing with the pictures so out of order. But in a nutshell; the boat and cradle went to the yard on a hydraulic trailer. After launching, the cradle was dropped off at my yard and some buddies and I manhandled the cradle onto a used dual axle trailer I bought. After a little trimming here and there the cradle was made to fit between the wheels. At the end of the season, the travel lift at the yard deposited my boat on my 'new' boat trailer and I drove home. Not too much magic here really.

Ken

[Jeff Kelety]

Hi Malcolm -

I'm coming in late to this as I haven't checked the boards in quite a while. I've got a Folkboat as well. Do a search on Nais on this site and you'll find some pics. Sounds like you're in for a wunnerful time. I must say it's the first I've heard of a copper fastened, plywood Folkboat. But hey, if it keeps the water out, why not? Best of luck!

Jeff

[Tasybear]

Thnx Jeff ...yep the water is on the outside alright:)

[schoonerdog]

hello, Im adrian frm BC, have a Mahogany folkboat built in 1958 in horsens Denmark. I am just finishing a two year complete resto, from the floor timbers up. I am aiming for an april launch, THis boat was modified in the 1960s to an enclosed cockpit with a yanmar beneath. Also, this boat is a cruising folkboat so when I rebuilt the cabin, I kept the extented cabin. I have steamed new frames, replaced the mast partner step, chainplates and sawn frames and lodging knees, deck beams, decks, deadwood, cabin , new interior, new rails, trim etc etc. I would love to know who the family or yard was building in Horsens, denmark, and any info about custom folkboats frm te 1950s. I have lots of valuable insight into proper retoration techniques as a student of wooden boat buiding and lover of folkboats