Log Cabins

[Greg H]

Michelle and I are considering building one ourselves. Just a small one, around 600 square feet or so, using one of the packages available. I was wondering if any one has any experience whith such things. Small house, big shop is the goal ;)

[Donn]

I helped a friend build a 2500 square foot cabin from New England Log Homes. It's a piece of cake. The only time we needed more than 2 of us was with some of the rafter timbers.

I also built a hand hewn sauna, by myself and with only traditional tools, out of white oak and shagbark hickory.

You might check WoodWeb. There are a couple of guys in and around Kentucky who sell dismantled hewn log cabins.

[On Vacation]

Base price just covers the framing. Have them predrill them for the wiring, by all means. Visit the plants, and check out previous houses, that maybe a year old. This will tell you of the logs and the dryness of them, when putting them into service. Go up to the mountains of North Carolina, and go through some of the more traveled plants.

[Mrleft8]

I lived in one of the kit built log cabins for a year when I lived in Vermont. It was a bit drafty, but that wasn't too bad considering how hot the wood stove got the place. I helped build a "real" log cabin in Ontario back in '77. The 50'x3'dia. Spruce logs were at most a week old. Heavy, and sticky! Took about 24 teenagers and 4 adults just to move them, but boy! what a pretty cabin they made!

[High C]

Back when I lived in the North Carolina mountains I did a bunch of homework on log building. We almost built one.

I decided that the highly milled logs that sit directly on top of one another with a tongue and groove arrangement were to be AVOIDED. It's also the most common type.

Much like a planked boat, the logs are going to change dimension over time, and those nice, tight fitting joints are going to distort and leak. A much better way is the log profile with flexible chinking filling a space of several inches between the logs, as in the Tennessee dovetail style logs. There are products, like Perma-chink, that are designed for this use.

I would build a chinked home, and not a tongue and groove, were I to build with logs.

[jack grebe]

I built about 20 of them ending about a 1 1/2 ago
when I got hurt. Couple of them that I did can be seen at the home page of Country Log Homes.
what do you wanna know?????

[ishmael]

Well, bowing to other's experience, always.

I built a big house this way, with three other guys, about twenty years ago.

It was tinker-toy easy. Being the man just up from the bottom of the totem pole I did a lot of searching for the right log. They weren't, usually, individually numbered, but were in categories.

The only time we needed outside help was when we placed the roof purlins. A crane.

I'll tell ya, I developed a hypermusckled right arm, driving the long spikes that held the shebang together. Even in cedar they took a bunch of effort to drive. I couldn't man a 20 oz. hammer--my wrists are constituionally unable(does than make me 'limp wristed?' Ohh, another thread ;) )--so I banged away with my common 16 oz., and they set, but I was always sore.

Such a small cabin Greg. I think I'd look to buying some proper logs, sharpening my chainsaw and slick, and building a real cabin. My opinion.

[ 08-11-2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Ron Williamson]

It's hard to believe that anyone would call something 2500sq.ft.+,a 'cabin'.
I have no kit/factory experience,only 'handcrafted'snobbery.
2 storey plumbing is a bit of a pain(log shrinkage WILL happen).
Plan some light coloured(ie. drywall)areas,as log work gets kinda grim and dark in December.
R
PS Mrleft8 where and for whom in Ontario?

[ 08-11-2003, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Ron Williamson ]

[cs]

I've no expierence with log cabins, but this is helping me. I've been contacted by some friends to draw up some construction plans for them to augmente their existing plans. They are building a log cabin and they have contracted a company to provide the log shell and then they have a GC to finish it out. They have asked me to draw any plans and details that the GC will need to finish the project.

So keep all hints & techniques a coming.

Chad

[Greg H]

As I suspected, everything I need to know about anything, can be found at the Wbf :D

I'll be back later with specific questions, but I've got to get back to work right now.
This is what we are looking at, it's the 800 sqtf
http://www.battlecreekloghomes.com/
Grizzly, with a slight change in the floor plan.
We want to do most of the work ourselves, never worked with logs but we did build a 2000sqft conventional house about 15 years ago.

Ish, I like the starting with trees approach, but it's not practcal at this point ;)

[ishmael]

Beware Greg. The desire to expand is often a sign of problems that won't be resolved by building something.

I'd look a diferent direction brother, if I was you.

[High C]

Greg, that's the type of log that I was warning against. Be sure to go look at some of their homes that are at least 5 years old. I bet you'll see a lot of caulk between the logs in an attempt to seal the leaks.

[thechemist]

This thread would be relevant:

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=007377&p=

[John of Phoenix]

I took a home building course many years ago in college and one of the topics was alternative construction. We each did different studies then gave presentations on log, subterranean, concrete, geodesic and a couple of other methods that elude me at the moment. I remember that log construction was very material intensive, hard to wire and plumb and is prone to leaks, drafts, insects, rodents, etc. The fellow who made the presentation was pretty down on the method.

Geodesic was very efficient in the use of materials. For any given sq. footage, it used about 1/3 the materials of normal stick construction and it's very energy efficient for heating/cooling. While the geodesic kits are amazingly easy to assemble, think BIG tinker toys with bolts, finishing is more time consuming because it's a series of triangles trying to fit into a 4' X 8' world. It’s a trade off, lower material cost vs. more labor. If you're doing the labor and enjoy the idea of the unusual shape, maybe it's worth a look.

Try a Google on “geodesic homes”. There are some interesting floor plans out there.

http://www.aidomes.com/model_dome_kit.jpg

[ 08-11-2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: John Teetsel ]

[Greg H]

HighC---I understand what you are saying. From reading I I was under the impression that re-caulking was part of the regular maintenance. I don't particularly care for the look of the wide chinking. Then again that's not much different than a wide caulk joint, is it?

These houses use lag screws and gaskets between the logs, I've seen some that use bolts that run from the sill plate to the top course of logs and can be tightend over the years.

Jack Grebe--- how are the logs joined on the houses you built?

Donn--How did you get the logs up to the level of the upper courses? Parbuckle?

Ish--???
Nothing wrong here a little dosh wouldn't cure ;)
(touch wood)

John-- Nice!
I would like to build a hillside earth bermed house or experiment with alternative construction. Maybe I will get to in the future. But Michelle wants to do logs this time, And I'm happy to give it a go smile.gif

[ 08-11-2003, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Greg H ]

[ishmael]

The Call Of The Wild

"The heavy old man in his bed at night
Hears the Coyote singing
in the back meadow.
All the years he ranched and mined and logged.
A Catholic.
A native Californian.
and the Coyotes howl in his
Eightieth year.
He will call the Government
Trapper
Who uses iron leg-traps on Coyotes,
Tomorrow.
My sons will lose this
Music they have just started
To love.

The ex acid-heads from the cities
Converted to Guru or Swami,
Do penance with shiny
Dopey eyes, and quit eating meat.
In the forests of North America,
The land of Coyote and Eagle,
They dream of India, of
forever blissful sexless highs,
And sleep in oil-heated
Geodesic domes, that
Were stuck like warts
In the woods.

And the Coyote singing
is shut away
for they fear
the call
of the wild.

And they sold their virgin cedar trees,
the tallest trees in miles,
To a logger
Who told them,

"Trees are full of bugs."

The Government finally decided
To wage the war all-out. Defeat
is Un-American.

And they took to the air,
Their women beside them
in bouffant hairdos
putting nail-polish on the
gunship cannon-buttons.

And they never came down,
for they found,
the ground

is pro-Communist. And dirty.
And the insects side with the Viet Cong.

So they bomb and they bomb
Day after day, across the planet
blinding sparrows
breaking the ear-drums of owls
splintering trunks of cherries
twining and looping
deer intestines
in the shaken, dusty, rocks.

All these Americans up in special cities in the sky
Dumping poisons and explosives
Across Asia first,
And next North America,

A war against earth.
When it's done there'll be
no place

A Coyote could hide.

envoy

I would like to say
Coyote is forever
Inside you.

But it's not true."

Gary Snyder

[ishmael]

Donn--How did you get the logs up to the level of the upper courses? Parbuckle? Greg,

None of the logs in the kit I worked on was larger or heavier than a single reasonably fit person could hoist on their shoulder. We had a couple sets of scaffolding, on wheels, but for such a small cabin a ladder would do. We had two guys fetching logs out of the pile, and two googing and banging away. And the fetchers did a fair amount of googing and banging too. Up and down that scaffolding, oi. and I think I decided I didn't want to do construction when hauling 90 lb. bundles of shingles up the three stories to the roof, at the back of the house, which was on a glen.

I was the fittest I've ever been that summer. It was close, and the temps in the 90s that summer. Ah YOUTH.

Yes, a poly or silicone googe, in a caulking gun, was the 'chinking'.

It's really a boring way to build a house. Unless you really liked Lincoln Logs as a kid, I'd still hunt up some nice logs and learn how to do a Scandanavian corner. Dovetails! For those logs you'd have to arrange a simple crane of some sort. But if Abe's folks could do it, so can you.
;)

Jack

[ 08-11-2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Donn]

Greg...I don't know what a parbuckle is, but we used Alan's tripods with blocks for everything above our heads, and the house is a 2 story, gambrel roof design.

The logs were routed on each side, to receive a 3" synthetic spline. Each course was pegged to the last with 12" trunnels. The bottom course of each wall was routed for utilities, and both the inside and outside were round. When we did the interior partitions, it was standard stick framing, except for the fact that we had to notch the round interior surfaces with circular saws and chisels to let in the studs. Partition walls were sheathed with wood (bite your tongue, Ron...no drywall in this wood home :D ). Contrast walls were done in birch planking.

The onliest thing that wasn't explained in the plans was how to install things like switches inside exterior doors. We solved it by letting in contrasting mahogany planks as part of the door trim, and installing the switches therein.

[ 08-11-2003, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[Mrleft8]

It was for a guy who ran a guide camp on lake Temagami, Ron.

[seafox61]

one way I've always thought you could do if you wanted that round log look was get pealer cores their about 4 inch dia and after having a pair of flats and stained redwood are sold as landscaping timebers for less tha 2 dollers each at home depo. if you can find a ply plant and buy them before they are milled and stained I wonder what they would run.

then their is the shape of the cabin have you thought about an octagone 8 foot sides gives you a 18 foot diamiter and you could lap the ended one way on one layer and the other way on the next

Ish if you read "the sand pebles" there is a lesson about hammers it says the weaker the guy sqing the hammer the heavyer the hammer I prefer a 28 ouncer. with straight claws these days. when i started building class in college I showed up with a three pound short handled sledge hammer. got a lot of teasing but when some one wanted to move a wall I was the first one called
jeffery

[Greg H]

Does anyone know if a licensed contractor can serve as a general contractor, or is that a different license all together?

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by High C:
I decided that the highly milled logs that sit directly on top of one another with a tongue and groove arrangement were to be AVOIDED. It's also the most common type.

Much like a planked boat, the logs are going to change dimension over time, and those nice, tight fitting joints are going to distort and leak. A much better way is the log profile with flexible chinking filling a space of several inches between the logs, as in the Tennessee dovetail style logs. An even better technique is the one used in Scandanavia, where they've had a long time perfecting the art of log building and living in a wicked cold climate. Scandinavian-style chinkless construction (http://www.charlevoix.net/traverse/imhisto/e_chalet.htm) (sometimes called 'full scribe' or 'Swedish cope' is a little different that of the usual American log cabin:

Each log has a concave face milled along its bottom, that sits on the convex top of the log below it. Logs are either joined at the corners with a saddle joint:

http://www.loghouses.biz:8080/fw/pg/img/imagedb/images/large/2/7/2/272.jpg

or, sometimes they are joined with hewn dovetails:

http://www.loghouses.biz:8080/fw/pg/img/imagedb/images/large/2/5/4/254.jpg

Often the sides of the logs are squared off with a broadaxe (as in the first picture.

The saddle joint has the advantage of draining well, but the dovetail provides good mechanical strength. And the dovetailed corners are much tidier than the interlocking ends with a saddle joint. Here's another picture of a tight joint:

http://www.loghomebuilders.org/addtoelvie25.jpg

The saddle joint and the concave log face, of course are easily hewn with an adze. The dovetail is easily cut with a bucksaw and axe.

Logs are always peeled as it helps keep the logs free of insects.

Bed the logs in 5200 and you should have a tight house that will never, ever, come apart :D

[High C]

Indeed Nicholas, the Swedish cope is the ultimate. It is also the most costly, of course. I saw one in Cosby, Tennessee that made me tremble. It was a true work of art, with massive logs, hand peeled, still tapered from end to end, and with creative cuts to the ends of the logs. The scribe joints were flawless, and hand cut. Spectacular.

The one you showed with the scrible and the dovetails is unique. I've never heard of that. Beautiful.

[Ron Williamson]

High C
It's impressive but not really that difficult.The technique of scribing can be mastered in a day or two.The ability to cut to a scribe line is more tricky,whether you use hand or power tools.I've seen guys split a pencilled scribe line with a chainsaw.Hacks like me have rough out with the saw and trim to the line with a gouge or a hand-pushed axe(not swung).We were paid piece work,so time was money,first you get good,then you get fast.The thing that people don't know about scribed logwork is that gravity pushes the lateral grooves tighter.What looks marginal today will look melted together next week.The top rounds don't have as much weight on them and can look like crap until the roof is on.
R

[Greg H]

Beautiful! :D
Time for more searching......

[ishmael]

It would take a bit more work than would whacking together Lincoln Logs, dumped off a truck, but the result is so much more beautiful Greg. The work is something I think, with your experience, you would enjoy. And whacking Lincoln Logs is not pleasant, at all.

For the size you are talking, the amount of extra work would soon fade to a dim memory over against real logs, scribed and fitted with your own hands.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by ishmael:
For the size you are talking, the amount of extra work would soon fade to a dim memory over against real logs, scribed and fitted with your own hands.On one site I ran acrost on google—a company that builds this type of log construction—they figured it was about two hours per log to scribe it, cope is and fit it.

That's not too hideous.

[it assumes of course, you know your way around your adze, broadaxe and saw.]

[jack grebe]

sorry it took so long to get back greg
what I built were milled with tongue and groove,
and had mortise and tenon corners.
they were lag bolted together with strips of foam gasket between the logs
the design was pretty neat in the way it was done in that the building shrank as a "unit". However, if the lags were not bolted in straight, the logs would be held up and some seperation can occur...normally only 1/8 to 1/4 inch which is for the most part cosmetic since air could not penatrate the foam strips

[Willin']

We're on our second log home right now, both with much the same criteria as you speced, with a slant towards energy efficiency (don't let people try to convince you their not heat efficient). We self built the first one (myself, wifey and her Dad, plus assorted friends and rellies over the following 6 years)in the mountains of California. A 6"x8" white fir round log t&g profile gambrel some 1900 sf with shop and 2 car garage below. Subbed out very little and got a huge amount of satisfaction. Everything is exactly where and how you want it when you do it yourself. Fortunately, my wife is the flexible, non traditional type, and enjoyed the challenge of living in a partially completed home.

We had a contractor do most of the second one for us. We designed it, specified 8"x8" western red cedar in a D profile ( 2200 sf cape this time) with us doing the interior finish work, tiling, countertops etc. Spent 3 times what we did for the first one, aren't speaking to the contractor/ manufacturer since we kicked him off the job and are scurrying to finish up the few major jobs ourselves as we're living in it illegally.

Major differences in butt joint connections, corner joints, window/door attachments from manufacturer to manufacturer.

I'd recommend you go local as much as possible. Enjoy the heck out of it, you'll love the house, the look, the smell, the feel, the peace and you'll enjoy staying home a lot more.

Cheers,

Mark

[Greg H]

Almost like building a boat :D