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NormMessinger
02-14-2003, 07:20 PM
So, when you all igorned my assertion that "God [i.e., the belief in] is a mutation" I figured I needed a little help. So I mentioned the existence of Ian's thread to son Lynn, the molecular biologist. Fortunatly he couldn't remember his password or the email address he used when he was "participating" in The Forum. In any case he does not deal is speculation on this subject as I may be inclined to do (see above).

He did offer me the following story which demonstrates the power of a little piece of DNA. Enjoy.

Subject: Re: The Bible According to Peter....
To: Norm Messinger <ngmessinger@cox.net>

Boy em I mad at you for sending me the creationist thread. I almost
posted a new topic. Fortunately I can't remember my password or what
email address I used. Whew.

Topic: Very Cool Story

My Dad screwed up and sent me the link to Ian Wrights' runaway thread.
There are enough potentially interested people that it made me want to
share without entering a tired old fray. Must be the ethanol. So here
goes.

It seems a muse spoke to some evolutionary Biologists thusly: "Go forth
and study the notothenioids" So they did. And it was good. This is some
of what they found out.

Once upon a time a long time ago (7-15 million years ago) their was a
pancreatic trypsinogen gene. This trypsinogen gene was in a fish that
lived near the Antarctic. This was not a good time to be a fish near the
Antarctic. Though food was plentiful the water was growing colder and
colder until it fell below the freezing temperature of fish flesh which
is -0.7 to -1.0C. Apparently freezing makes it hard to swim so the fish
weren't doing very well. A certain goddess, being omniscient, was aware
of the situation and resolved to tinker. She commanded the trypsinogen
gene to duplicate and then to suffer a series of mutations. The first
mutation formed a new gene consisting of trypsinogen's 5' untranslated
region, the first exon (thus providing the secretion signal), intron
one, part of exon two and exon six.

As I think I mentioned, the goddess is omniscient. She is also
omnipotent. Neither is she stupid. This was of paramount importance
because she understood that splicing up pieces of a trypsinogen gene
wouldn't do diddly for a cold fish. She also knew - having been a
co-author of the bacterial ice nucleation gene INA - something about how
water freezes. Armed with that knowledge she sallied forth and caused a
series of iterative mutations, a frame shift and added a strong dose of
natural selection (remember the food and cold water?). Wallah we have
sequence #2102688.

>gi|2102688|gb|AAB57731.1| AFGP polyprotein precursor

MKPLALLLLIGAAAVTAAPAATAATPATAATPALNYAATAATPATAATAA LIFAATAATPATAATAALIF

AATAATPATAATPALIFAATAATPATPALIFAATAATPATAATPATAAFN FAATAATPATAATAALIFAA

TAATAATPATPALNFAATAATAATAATPATAALNFATAATAATPATPALN FAATAATPATAATPALNFAA

TAATAATPATAALNFAATAATAATPATAAFNFAATAATPATAATPALIFA ATAATPATAATPALNFATAA

TAATPATPALNFAATAATAATAATPATAALNFATAATAATPATPALNFAA TAATPATAATPALMFAATAA

TAATPATAAFNFAATAATPATAATPALIFAATAATAATAATAALIFATAA TAATPATAAFNFAATAATPA

TAATPALIFAATAATAATPATAALNFATAATAATPATAALNFATAATAAT PATPALNFAATAATPATAAT

PALMFAATAATAATPATAAFNFAATAATPATAATPALIFAATAATPATAA TPALIFATAATAATPAFNFA

ATAATPATAATPALIFAATAATAATPATAAFNFATAATAATPATAAFNFA ATAATPATAATPALMFAATA

ATPATAATPALIFAATAATAATPATAACNFAATAATPATAATPALIFAAT AATPATAATPALIFVATPAT

AATAATAATAATAATAATAARG

When processed and secreted the peptides encoded by this new gene
interfere with ice nucleation and thus flesh freezing so that the
notothenioids can live in Antarctic salt water approaching its' freezing
point of -1.9C.

Having commanded these manipulations, which she could have left to
chance, the goddess retired to her sella curulis for a much deserved
nap. Before falling asleep her last thought was that this was definitely
one for her resume. When she awoke she was not at all astounded to see
that a really fun adaptive radiation had occurred. As she had figured
(remember the omniscience?) the new antifreeze gene allowed these fishes
to live in the cold but nutrient rich waters of the Antarctic. Not only
did they live but they speciated - a lot. Yes their was a veritable
frenzy of speciation. All those empty niches. All that natural
selection. The goddess commanded the mutations but the pervasive forces
of Evolution did the rest. As she well knew would occur.

Next time one of y'all are sailing your wooden boat in the waters of the
Antarctic consider the story of the notothenioids and tremble in wonder
and awe. The more science reveals the more the wonderment.

>From the abstract:

"The notothenioid trypsinogen to AFGP conversion is the first clear
example of how an old protein gene spawned a new gene for an entirely
new protein with a new function. It also represents a rare instance in
which protein evolution, organismal adaptation, and environmental
conditions can be linked directly."

For the real story see

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/94/8/3811

and the references therein.

Here is some stuff about the fishes

www.oucom.ohiou.edu/dbms-eastman/ (http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/dbms-eastman/) morphological_diversity.ht

Best Wishes

Lynn



[ 02-14-2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: NormMessinger ]

Donn
02-14-2003, 07:27 PM
ROFLMAO! Is that LaMess's own writing?

Rocky
02-14-2003, 07:32 PM
I think you're confusing what God does with how he does it.

NormMessinger
02-14-2003, 07:37 PM
Um, Rocky, you mean the Goddess, right? I'm the one the did a little minor obfucation in bringing God (the belief in) in to the conversation.

Yes Donn, that is his very own writing. He got his mothers DNA for brains but unfortunatly my good looks is recessive. So have you ever caught a notothenioid?

Donn
02-14-2003, 07:46 PM
How does one know if one has caught a notothenioid? His spelling has improved since he left the forum, and, while I have heard over 50 years of fish stories, I must say I've never heard one quite like that. :D

Wiley Baggins
02-14-2003, 07:50 PM
Shouldn't this be in the "Easy Recipes?" thread?

Bruce Taylor
02-14-2003, 08:01 PM
Oh yeah, things are looking up around here. Brilliant!

I like this "message in a bottle" stuff. Send one back to the man, Norm. Tell him we really liked the story, especially the part that goes "PATAALNFATAATAA" (that treally rolls off the tongue. PATAALNFATAATAA! PATAALNFATAATAA!)

Meerkat
02-14-2003, 08:02 PM
Somebody better get the goddess to mutate fish so they don't taste good to humans or there's not going to be a lot of speciation left, but there will be all sorts of comfy niches and room for natural selection. We're overdrawn at the fish banks!

Mike Field
02-14-2003, 09:05 PM
.
Is he quite sure the end of that chain isn't T A A T A A R R B G U M ?

What church did you take him to when he was a nipper, Norm? smile.gif
.

ken mcclure
02-14-2003, 09:05 PM
:D Great story, Norm. Thanks!

After 8 years of Catholic elementary school indoctrination - er - "teaching," I was pretty sure I knew everything I needed to know about God. Then I went into a Jesuit high school and found that I not only knew very little about God, but that I knew very little about myself, about the world, and about whether there even WAS a God.

Since then I've found out quite a bit about myself, somewhat about the world and the jury's still out on God.

Donn
02-14-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Mike Field:
.
What church did you take him to when he was a nipper, Norm? smile.gif
.Church of the Latter Day Quaints

Rocky
02-14-2003, 09:10 PM
Not sure where you're coming from on this Norm, to have "belief in God is a mutation" in the same post as this story about a gene duplicating and mutating in specific ways several times to create a fish that can thrive in freezing water. Sure doesn't sound like a random event.

[ 02-15-2003, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Rocky ]

Scott Dunsworth
02-14-2003, 09:32 PM
From goo to you by the way of the Zoo. I can't buy it!
The fool has said in his heart that there is no God.

Meerkat
02-15-2003, 01:35 AM
Why shouldn't it be a random event? Cast the dice enough times and anything is bound to happen. In this case "cast the dice" is a lot of fish getting born. Some fish just got lucky, started moving faster then the rest of the stiff fish and prospered, probably by eating stiff fish :D .

Anyone ever heard of a book called "The Blind Watchman"?

Ian G Wright
02-15-2003, 02:21 AM
Hey Norm,
Thank you for waiting until 'my' thread reached its double century, very decent of you,,,,,
I'm waiting for the interest to die down at which point I shall ask how many Americans belive in bleeding, with or without leeches, as a first choice treatment in cases of morbidity of the phleghm.
,,,,and how many forumites will find a use for the new S&W .5 Magnum outside bear country,,,or inside it for that matter.

IanW ;)

Rocky
02-15-2003, 08:19 AM
What this world needs is someone who takes the same analytical eye to evolutionary theory that evolutionary theory takes to creationism. Sure, and if the timeline is long enough an ameoba could write War and Peace.

NormMessinger
02-16-2003, 06:28 PM
Ian, you need to have a talk with the folks on your thread. They are getting entirely too unsuscinct.

Let's not fight about the who and why Rocky, and just enjoy the elegance of the power of a simple mutation and adaptive radiation.

Rocky
02-16-2003, 06:43 PM
Which, being totally random, creates a desirable result. I'm not really a creationist, not even a very good Christian, I just don't have much taste for the blase acceptance of a theory which is loaded with unproven assumptions. The only really hard science is chemistry. These random mutations could go on being random forever without some kind of intention.

[ 02-17-2003, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: Rocky ]

Rex Fearnehough
02-16-2003, 07:04 PM
Norm asked someone if they had caught a notothenioid fish, we used to have lots up here.
I ate a fillet only last Friday!
Rex.

On Vacation
02-16-2003, 08:49 PM
What I want to know is this guy's true DNA . Talk about a cool story.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid31/p916688a161a8eec015ee6e30dfadfc3c/fd4d216f.jpg

[ 02-16-2003, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

LaMess
02-17-2003, 02:26 PM
Please ignore this. I'm not responsible. It is thresher boys fault. email him and tell him not to send me anymore thread links.

Chapter 2 of a Really Cool Story

Being another sequence Providing Evidence for the Creative Power of Random Mutations.

Biographers (blasphemers all) have questioned the goddesses integrity. It seems the notion of proteins binding to the surface of nascent ice crystals to lower the freezing temperature of water was not original and she may have violated a lot of patents.

Disparate proteins with this function exist in vertebrates, invertebrates, plants, bacteria and fungi. They have different tertiary structures, bind to different faces of the water crystals and often share no sequence similarity so the claim that our goddess violated the ethics of intellectual property is tenuous.

In order for an evolutionary advance to be patentable it must be original enough so that it is very unlikely to occur independently. Vertebra qualify but compound eyes do not since they evolved independently at least three times (in mollusks, jellyfish and vertebrates). The most damning sequence example sited against our goddess is #11360494 from the Arctic Cod since it looks remarkably like those she bestowed upon the notothenioids.

In her defense it is argued that genomes are rife with mutational events such as exon shuffling, unequal crossing over, replication slippage etc. that are often far more creative than point mutations. Thus it is reasonable to expect similar solutions to similar problems without invoking anything execrable.

Be assured that our goddess shall staunchly maintain that examples of convergent and parallel evolution are evidence for the amazing creative ability of her judicious mixture of the observable and experimentaly repeatable phenomena of mutation, time and Natural Selection until such time as evidence of Other Forces is provided.

Regards to Data Lovers everywhere.

Lynn

>gi|11360494|pir||T44768 antifreeze glycopeptide AFGP polyprotein precursor [imported] - Boreogadus saida
MLTGSCLLGPSCTSSPRYEQHQLLVARPAAAARAATPATAATPATAATPA TAATAATEATAATAATPATA
ATPATAATAATTAATAATAATAATPARAARAATPATAATPATAATAATAA TAATAETPARAATPATAATP
ATAATPATAATAATAATSATAATAARAATPATAATPATPATAARAARAAT PATAATAATAATAATAATAA
TAATAATPARAARAATPATAPTPATAATPATAATAATAPTAATPARAARA ATPATAATLATAATPATPAT
PATAATDATAATAATPARAATPATPATAATPATPATAATAATAATAATAA TPARAARAATPATAATPATA
ATAATAATAATAATAATPARAARAATPATAATAATAATAATAATAATPAR AARAATPATPATPATPATPA
TAATAATAATAATAATAATAATAATAPTPARAARAATPATGATPATAPTA GTAATAATAATAATPARAST
PATAATPVTAATPAAVF

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=9108061

Meerkat
02-17-2003, 02:30 PM
Exon shuffling? I thought it was Enron that did the shuffling? ;)

NormMessinger
02-17-2003, 02:43 PM
That's okay, Merr. I don't understand all of it either. But I have faith. tongue.gif

Bruce Taylor
02-18-2003, 07:21 AM
Any hope of getting some of that stuff transplanted into my own genome? It would eliminate my heating bill, and might even reduce my urge to conquer sandy countries.

My sister-in-law is doing a Darwin fellowship in fish. Maybe you've bumped into her at a conference somewhere.

NormMessinger
02-18-2003, 08:15 AM
Lynn does not hang around people who fish any more. He's afraid someone bigger than him will snatch the rod from his hands should he hook a big one. No danger of that with [i\C. elegans[/i].

tongue.gif