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View Full Version : Did your SUV pay for 9/11?



Meerkat
12-28-2005, 02:06 AM
Former spy Robert Baer, author of SEE NO EVIL: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism, makes the leap from intelligence reformist to national mentor with his new book, "SLEEPING WITH THE DEVIL: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude." Indeed, his last sentence has the White House laying in the moonlight with its legs spread, lustfully eyeing the Saudi wallet on the bureau.

This is an extraordinary compelling work, not least because it provides detailed and documented discovery not previously available, of how the U.S. government has over the course of several administrations made a deliberate decision to a) not spy on the Arab countries, b) not collect and read open sources in Arabic, c) not attempt to understand the sub-state actors such as the Muslim brotherhood, despite a long history in which these groups commit suicide to achieve their objectives, including the murder of several heads of state.

Baer's most brutal points should make every American shudder: it is America itself that is subsidizing terrorism, as well as the corruption of the Saudi royal family. Baer's documented estimate is that $1 dollar from every barrel of petroleum is spent on Saudi royal family sexual misbehavior, and $1.50 of every barrel of petroleum bought by America ultimately ends up funding extremist schools, foundations, and terrorist groups.

Baer has "gone back in time" to document how all of this terrorism began in the 1970's, but despite its terrible local consequences (including the assassination of heads of state), was ignored by Washington as "a local problem."

In one lovely real-life account, Baer, then duty officer at CIA while Iraq poised to invade Kuwait, found that the $35 billion per year system was useless, impotent. It came down to his calling the chief of station in Kuwait, who called a border guard, who lifted his binoculars and described the Iraqi tanks stopped for lunch. Baer says: "As I waited, I wondered: Is this what all that money for intelligence is buying us? A pair of binoculars?"

Baer joins with Robert Kaplan in concluding that democracy in Arabia would be an out and out disaster. The decades of Islamic extremism and anti-Americanism run amok cannot be resolved by democratic elections because the very people who most hate America will be elected. Baer observes that "strongman tactics" such as used by Saddam Hussein and by the Syrian leadership--including a "scorched earth" campaign against the internal terrorist groups--are a more stable "rule of law". One can conclude that the US has made a mistake in destabilizing Iraq, and that the imposition of a democratic solution in Iraq will turn out to be vastly more difficult, and vastly more expensive, than the naive neo-conservatives understood when they set forth without bothering to establish who was in the majority within the population being "liberated."

Saudi Arabia has bought and paid for all the White House and Congressional influence it needs. This is why the recently released 9-11 report contains no mention of the secret documentation of Saudi Arabian complicity in the terrorism that took 3,000 American lives. As Senator Shelby noted on PBS NewsHour recently (he has read the secret report), 93% of the blanked out pages, and specifically those on Saudi sponsorship of terrorism against America and other nations, is a "con man's" effort to avoid "embarrassment." As the families of the 9-11 victims have said, "we need to know."

Baer is extraordinary. He was a success as a case officer (a clandestine representive of America dealing with traitors and terrorists under conditions of extreme risk), and he has now become a sort of "Patrick Henry" of the modern era, warning us in clear and compelling terms that White House corruption (a non-partisan recurring corruption) and Saudi Arabia are the twin swords upon which this great Nation may yet impale itself.
Rober Baer is the author of books that the movie "Syriana" is based on. He's a former CIA officer. The book this comment is from is "Sleeping with the Devil : How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude."

amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400052688/qid=1135753072/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/103-0938267-7545405?s=books&v=g lance&n=283155)

BrianW
12-28-2005, 02:10 AM
Geez, I just posted a question about this guy an the 'Movie thread', guess you've answered my question Meerkat.

Did you read the book?

BrianW
12-28-2005, 02:11 AM
Oh, to answer your subject line...

Maybe, mines a 1997 model, guess anyone with a 2002 or newer can relax. ;)

Meerkat
12-28-2005, 02:11 AM
Not yet, nor seen the movie, but I plan to rectify both omissions.

Meerkat
12-28-2005, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by BrianW:
Oh, to answer your subject line...

Maybe, mines a 1997 model, guess anyone with a 2002 or newer can relax. ;) It's the gas you buy, not the model year.

Aside from which, the money for 9/11 would have come from sales of oil before, not after, 9/11 ;)

BrianW
12-28-2005, 02:25 AM
Maybe it's time for another 'Cylinder Count' thread. smile.gif

Meerkat
12-28-2005, 02:28 AM
Maybe it's time for this country to be the country it says it is and stand up to tyrany whereever it's found. The long term gain should easily outweigh the short term pain. ;)

"Business as usual" is getting pricy.

cedar savage
12-28-2005, 06:29 AM
I'm just sitting here, lost in a fantasy about how much sexual misbehaviour I could buy with a buck a barrel!

Garrett Lowell
12-28-2005, 06:30 AM
A couple of days ago, I posted a thread (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=028417&p=) on this very subject, with no takers. Seems the message masters have gotten their puppets marching again......
"What would Jesus Drive" is coming back!

[ 12-28-2005, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Garrett Lowell ]

Wild Dingo
12-28-2005, 07:33 AM
Your just gettin Phil an Chads desease Garrett... inbizibility!! :D

Garrett Lowell
12-28-2005, 07:42 AM
smile.gif
It's not a bad thing, really. It's kind of liberating.

Keith Wilson
12-28-2005, 08:58 AM
I'm just sitting here, lost in a fantasy about how much sexual misbehaviour I could buy with a buck a barrel! :D :D I don't think any of us are physically capable of that much.

Beowolf
12-28-2005, 09:18 AM
Welcome Garrett.

It's good to "see" you here.

Perhaps we should start up another "70's, 80's music one-hit-wonder, name that tune trivia contest thread." I seem to recall that the "invisibles" excelled at those.

Jeff.

Garrett Lowell
12-28-2005, 11:00 AM
Hey Jeff! Those types of threads are likely the only thing at which I excel! And now even more so, as I have all of those one-hit wonders on my oh so handy iPod.

Wild Wassa
12-28-2005, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Meerkat:
" ... democracy in Arabia would be an out and out disaster ... ... the very people who most hate America will be elected."

Don't tell George Bush that, he is saving the World.

Why is nothing coming out of the US about the results of the Iraqi elections ... how come?

One small experiment in Democratizing Iraq ... can't just fail on one election result alone just because it is not what was expected ... :D .

I wouldn't worry too much about the Iraqi results ... Bush can always hold another election, if he doesn't like the result and I'm guessing he doesn't ... in one of George W Bush's dictatorial democracies you just keep spinning the results.

It was a good try in the experiment of democratizing Iraq ... and well worth the lives lost?

Baer is the only person from the US who has questioned the US government's dismissal of Sudan's offer to provide the the US government with the workings and financial dealings of Al Qaeda prior to 9/11 that I know of. In those days the were not called Al Qaeda they were called the Brotherhood of Islam but Ossama was still Ossama.

Warren.

[ 12-28-2005, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Garrett Lowell
12-28-2005, 01:56 PM
Warren, what about the rest of the region? Does it appear they are making some progress toward democratization? Also, I don't care who you are or where your politics lie, but a turnout the likes of which were witnessed in Iraq can only be termed a success, regardless of the results.

Meerkat
12-28-2005, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Garrett Lowell:
Also, I don't care who you are or where your politics lie, but a turnout the likes of which were witnessed in Iraq can only be termed a success, regardless of the results.On that logic, the "Titanic" was a roaring success - 100% participation - no matter how it turned out! tongue.gif

Wild Wassa
12-28-2005, 02:10 PM
Garath, Democratizing the middle east can only end in total failure and less security for the US in the long term because in a region where strong men have prevailed for decades the only viable oppositions to these criminals are even bigger criminals ... the religious fanatics. These countries have no understanding of democratic oppositions. Nore will those elected allow free and open elections, look at what has happened in Egypt this week. Egypt is a democracy and the US this week, has spoken out vigerously against the persecution of Egypt's oppositions.

You can't say that all democracies are equal some potential democracies are time bombs waiting to happen ... just like Iraq. Iraq's closest ally is not the bringer of democracy the US, their closest ally is Iran.

Democrary in Iran works in the US's interest or even in the Middle East's interest? ... I don't think so ... allow this democracy to build the bomb and it won't matter how many democracies there are in the Middle East.

Warren.

[ 12-28-2005, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Garrett Lowell
12-28-2005, 02:16 PM
I'm thinking more along the lines of Lebanon, The Palestinians, Egypt, and possibly even Saudi Arabia. Hezbollah and Hamas have been a lot more political and a lot less violent as well. Just a small area worth looking at, I felt.

Wild Wassa
12-28-2005, 02:29 PM
Look at Palestine over the last few days, factional fighting, gun battles in factional offices and many deaths because candidates have been excluded from ballots by their own parties. Also this week, Egypt's government arresting the main opposition party's leader on trumped up charge because he is a real threat to Mubarak. Even the US government has spoken out vigorously over the last few days, condemning the farce in Egypt. Also in Egypt some political parties are excluded from taking part in elections (including religious parties) because they are a real threat to Mubarak.

Syriaís tampering with democracy in Lebanon has been going on for two decades and the political assassinations in Lebanon alone this year are unbelievable for a democracy ... these people donít have democracy. They only go through the pretence of living in a democracy. False democracies are not democracies ... they give democracy lip service only.

Iran's democracy is mulla selected candidates only. They don't want people in Iran's democracy doing democratic things like having self determination.

All democracies realy do is give the rich and powerfull, the right to plunder others by giving the illusion that democracies do the right thing.

The 'illusion' is democracy's greatest achievement.

Warren.

[ 12-28-2005, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Keith Wilson
12-28-2005, 02:56 PM
All democracies really do is give the rich and powerfull, the right to plunder others by giving the illusion that democracies do the right thing. Well this is certainly an excellent example of the depths of cynicism. :rolleyes: What would you suggest as an alternative, not to Bush's invasion of Iraq, but to democracy? Monarchy? Dictatorship? Oligarchy? Anarchy? Kleptarchy? Theocracy?

High C
12-28-2005, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Wild Wassa:
...All democracies realy do is give the rich and powerfull, the right to plunder others by giving the illusion that democracies do the right thing...Oh my! :eek:

Keith Wilson
12-28-2005, 03:03 PM
I think HighC and I just found an important point of agreement.

Wild Wassa
12-28-2005, 03:26 PM
It is not Democracy, Squattocracy or any other 'ocracy or even a Benevolent Dictatorship that I'm hoping for ... but honest, open and fair handed government. Something Western governments don't seem capable of at the moment. The Australian politician Bob Crick said it best, "The moment my colleagues get elected they think it is their right to rule the peasants." He then resigned as the Leader of his party.

We can not have a real democracy while we have the politics of money. We can not ever have a democracy while we have lobby driven politics.

In my perfect Democracy (fat chance of that ever happening) all public positions would be drawn out of a hat from names on the (no longer needed) electoral roll or the phone book. This couldn't give a worse result than the lying criminals that we elect. All those wanting to stand for public office are the first excluded for not being people of the right type but their names are not excluded from being in the hat.

I don't think that true democracy ever really existed ... I even heard a politician use the word 'altruistic' to describe a corporate leader the other day ... nothing surprises me in a democracy either. At least with Dictators you know they are corrupt and they don't have to crawl for their campaign donations. All politicians would be payed so much money they couldn't afford to be corrupted by others in my Democracy. Politics is just a joke.

A journalist who described the same dead corporate leader described him as, "a bully prone to fits of rage." Freedom of speech is democracy's real plus but even in a democracy we have to fight our politicians for the right.

Warren.

[ 12-28-2005, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Meerkat
12-28-2005, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Keith Wilson:
What would you suggest as an alternative, not to Bush's invasion of Iraq, but to democracy? Monarchy? Dictatorship? Oligarchy? Anarchy? Kleptarchy? Theocracy?Something other than the (effectively) Plutocracy we live under now?

Democracy might be a nice idea if we actually tried it.

Jagermeister
12-28-2005, 04:48 PM
The review raises two interesting questions:

1) If one accepts that certain people are culturally unprepared for democracy, then what is to be done when large numbers of these people immigrate to the Western democracies? European and American native birthrates are static or negative, and by Kaplan's reasoning, both Europe and the U.S. are seeing significant numbers of unassimilated immigrants culturally unprepared to participate in democracy. Should these people be excluded from the democratic process, or should the Western democracies revert to a system they are more familiar with, e.g., dictatorships or monarchies?

2) If democracy in Arabia is a disaster, but American support of Arab strongmen (Mubarak, the Saudi royals, Saddam in the 80's) helped foster terrorism, what course is suggested? Strict isolationism? Support for different thugs? More support for repressive regimes? Abandonment of Israel? IMHO, all of those courses were followed to one degree or another during different administrations, and yet none of them seemed to significantly affect terrorist activity against the United States. IIRC, the only actions that curtailed terrorist activity were direct military action against the perpetrators and/or their state sponsors. At least attempting to democratize the Middle East is an alternative to the endless warfare which accompanies the status quo of totalitarian government.

P.S. 38 mpg Honda Civic, so I guess I didn't subsidize 9/11. Thank god I can let go of that guilt now. smile.gif

[ 12-28-2005, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Jagermeister ]

ljb5
12-28-2005, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Jagermeister:
2) If democracy in Arabia is a disaster, but American support of Arab strongmen (Mubarak, the Saudi royals, Saddam in the 80's) helped foster terrorism, what course is suggested? Strict isolationism? Support for different thugs? More support for repressive regimes? Abandonment of Israel?A couple of years ago, liberals asked questions like this.

We were told 'real Americans' don't care about nuance and don't worry about complexities. The world is black and white and one course is completely right while all others are wrong. Anyone who pauses to ask if they're on the right path is aiding the enemy.

We were told to shut up, get with the game, don't ask any questions and everything would work out just fine.

(Incidentally, I disagree with your assertion that direct military action has decreased terrorism. Al Qaeda has expanded into Iraq since the war began and there have been major attacks in Spain, Jordan and England. Terrorism recruitment is way up.

But at least we agree about Honda Civics.)