stupid ?

[jack grebe]

If we are in IRAQ to "free the people"
why are we shooting the protesters :confused:

[Garrett Lowell]

Lt. Col. Tobin Green, commander of the 2nd squadron of the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, which is taking over from the 82nd Airborne in Fallujah, said a six-vehicle convoy was shot at and responded with gunfire.

[High C]

Originally posted by jack grebe:
If we are in IRAQ to "free the people"
why are we shooting the protesters :confused: Why are "protestors" shooting at American soldiers?

[km gresham]

'Cause they're shootin at us.

[LeeG]

come on Jack, that's simplistic and out of context,,like 9/11=terrorists=Iraq=regime change=liberation. If there's just a few soldiers and hundreds of pissed off natives the outcome won't be hard to figure if rocks, bottles start flying,,given the prevalence of AK-47s it's amazing folks don't get slaughtered. I couldn't imagine the restraint if exposed and balancing between being a fighting force or a police force.

[Bruce G]

Originally posted by High C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jack grebe:
If we are in IRAQ to "free the people"
why are we shooting the protesters :confused: Why are "protestors" shooting at American soldiers?</font>[/QUOTE]We also need to look at who the protesters are: they were pro-Saddam protesters, just like the ones who where shot last night while we were sleeping.

[ishmael]

Though I have no doubt our soldiers came under fire, it is difficult to know just what happened. A few armed men--perhaps some of Saddam's loyalists who melted back into the civilian population, acting as agent provocateurs--could be the cause. Hence the profession of ignorance of the attack by the Iraqi protestors. To my mind, that is the most likely scenario. It seems a dangerous situation, and how we handle it will be very important. I wish our military leaders wisdom and restraint.

It's possible that new rules of engagement need to be formulated. It seems, at this point, an immediate response to being fired on out of these crowds is the order of the day. It would be better, assuming it is a few men with Kalashnikovs, for us to show restraint until it is clear there is a major attack underway. IMO.

[ 04-30-2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[skuthorp]

Look, forgetting all the stuff about Sunni's and Shiites, this is a people oppressed for 30 years by Saddams regime and a culture that has no tradition or possibly concept of 'democracy'. It must be very scary for them. They will be looking for anything that can give them some sort of base, eg, religion. Islam is not a democratic religion, what religion is?
Marines are possibly the best shock troops in the world today, not policemen. Their reactions are not that of trained police. There's a way to go yet I'm afraid.

[km gresham]

There likely is a ways to go, but not long ago we had people predicting that we would be mired in heavy battle still. smile.gif

We're a lot further along now than those naysayers thought we'd be for months yet and I trust that our progress in helping the Iraqis establish their new government will continue along at a remarkable pace. Not without a speedbump here and there, however.

[jack grebe]

I don't doubt that they "came under fire, and the most likely senairo is what ish said about pro saddamers melting in to the crowd..but to open fire,I would think, would be very counter productive

[Keith Wilson]

Yep. Like I said before, the hard part's just starting. Governing occupied territory and rebuilding a country is very different than defeating a second-rate (at best) military power; not easier necessarily, but a lot less straightforward, and requiring very different skills. I sincerely hope that this administration can find some people with enough understanding of local conditions and subtlety in the uses of power. Rumsfeldian chest-thumping is not much help here. The fact that the Jay Garner worked with the Kurds for quite a while (and they mostly still like him) is encouraging.

[Meerkat]

ABC News reported that they where told by Iraqis that there where Baath party members agitating in the crowd and calling for the return of Saddam.

Some previously unknown group has announced that Saddam is alive and will have a radio broadcast on the 30th.

[LeeG]

Originally posted by skuthorp:
Look, forgetting all the stuff about Sunni's and Shiites, this is a people oppressed for 30 years by Saddams regime and a culture that has no tradition or possibly concept of 'democracy'. It must be very scary for them. They will be looking for anything that can give them some sort of base, eg, religion. Islam is not a democratic religion, what religion is?
Marines are possibly the best shock troops in the world today, not policemen. Their reactions are not that of trained police. There's a way to go yet I'm afraid.you hit it on the head

[High C]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Some previously unknown group has announced that Saddam is alive and will have a radio broadcast on the 30th.There have been other dubious "appearences" of Hussein since the war started. If this turns out to be yet another performance lacking a real date stamp of some sort, yesterday's closing stock market prices for instance, then I think Hussein should be considered dead.

Tarik Azziz recently said that Hussein is alive and well. That's another reason to be skeptical. ;)

[ 04-30-2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: High C ]

[Jim H]

I think it's important to note that the incident on Monday at the school happened at night.

[km gresham]

I won't believe Saddam is alive until Baghdad Bob tells me so. Where is he, anyway? :D

[ishmael]

All the Saddam BS is a smokescreen. Who cares? The important thing is that Arab headlines DO NOT read, American Marines Mow Down Iraqi Protesters. This if absolutely vital, that this sort of behaviour, and its aftermath, not happen, anymore!

[ 04-30-2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Donn]

The troops in both incidents were not Marines. They were Army.

[ishmael]

Poetic license. We definately don't want headlines, in the Arab press, proclaiming, American Troops Mow Down Peaceful Protesters. But, correction noted.

[Jim H]

I would imagine that they are currently posting snipers in likely areas of "conflict". Snipers will be able to engage the shooters more effectively, but arab headlines will still read "American Troops Kill Innocent Civilians" because that's how they want it to read.

[High C]

The Arab press will continue to fabricate and spin however they like, much like our own press. Hopefully word of mouth will be more accurate. For Iraqis who are witnessing first hand what's really taking place, the picture will be more accurate. The deception of the Arab press will have its greatest affect outside Iraq.

[oldriverat]

Dissention will not be tolerated in the new regime

[ishmael]

Mike, you're an unpredictable fellow. Without being gung ho, I read you as positive about this war, two months ago.

As to dissent being tolerated: I can't really imagine the state of things on the street right now, in Iraq, can you? Unfortunate deaths of civilians doesn't mean the same thing it would mean in Memphis.

[ 04-30-2003, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Bruce G]

Originally posted by skuthorp:
Look, forgetting all the stuff about Sunni's and Shiites, this is a people oppressed for 30 years by Saddams regime and a culture that has no tradition or possibly concept of 'democracy'. It must be very scary for them. They will be looking for anything that can give them some sort of base, eg, religion. Islam is not a democratic religion, what religion is?
Marines are possibly the best shock troops in the world today, not policemen. Their reactions are not that of trained police. There's a way to go yet I'm afraid.So are we saying that after 30 years of oppression these people have no concept of right from wrong? Are we to believe that it is understandable for them to protest us being there after we free them (a job that they themselves could not accomplish within the past 30 years)? I am sorry but I do not agree with this assumption that all their actions are acceptable or to tone it down, understandable, because of the past 30 years.